Mailing List Archive

Kevin, the mistake made every time this issue comes up, and I've seen since the
N word letter was followed by egro, is the silly notion that changing
nomenclature will change anything real when what is needed is more respect for
what a person brings to a situation than manufactured respect for what they are
physically. It implies very directly that a person who respects another for his
accomplishments ignoring skin color is a de facto racist. You are sending
exactly the wrong message. Respect a person for his abilities and character
today. The past, the skin color, the number of properly working appendages, the
presence or absence of hair on the head, the preferred partner choices, matter
only in very specific circumstances. Respect for a person's abilities and
character apply to every situation. Which does more good?

{^_^}

On 20200714 06:15:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Dave,
>
> The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by being
> less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.
>
> Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
> Project with the Apache Software Foundation.  This is just an argument fallacy.
> My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
> reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with all
> being good.  The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
> referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
> the Apache name.  We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
> work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org
> <mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
>
> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.
>
> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
> change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are
> not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you
> are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be
> wrong.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org
> <mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> I think you are reading other people's take on things.  Clearer language
> was an added bonus but never the reason.  The reason was to remove
> racially charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since
> the major bump would allow for disruption.  Further, this article was
> what reminded me to bring it up:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich
> <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org <mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
>
> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go
> to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion
> on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had
> merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of
> history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and
> understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
> <kmcgrail@apache.org <mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are
> earned by demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project
> management committee aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on
> this change started in early April with a vote in early May by
> the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will
> ignore messages that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a
> publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side
> of history.  Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu
> <mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>> wrote:
>
>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.
> The change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of
> a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how
> computing is
> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the
> social benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this
> group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is
> being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>
>

On Tue, 14 Jul 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
> 1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
> religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
> This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
> the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
> about 1640.

That last bit is plain wrong. Jamestown had Africans as slaves as early
as 1619, but the Spanish were even earlier, having brought slaves on
an expedition to present-day South Carolina in 1526 (slaves who then
rebelled and essentially destroyed the settlement's ability to
survive).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/misguided-focus-1619-beginning-slavery-us-damages-our-understanding-american-history-180964873/

As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
"curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.

Furthermore, even if "black" and "sin" are linked prior to the use of
black as racist, this does not diminish the reality that "white"
racist views of "black" people are long-standing. And, as pure
conjecture, if European Christians associated black with sin and evil,
it's not much of a leap to suggest these associations suggested or
strengthened their racist views of black people as lazy (Sloth),
capricious (Greed) and lustful (Lust), among other negative qualities.


> Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
> coined and where did that happen?

While there are earlier uses of the term "black" referring to
darker-skinned people, it most directly comes to us via the European
Enlightment, and it was racist from the start. The quick version is
that various "natural philosophers" in the late 1600s tried to
describe and account for the different "races" that they encountered
in the world. One famous account is from Fran?ois Bernier, entitled
"New Division of the Earth by the Different Species or 'Races' of Man
that Inhabit It."
https://web.archive.org/web/20060524134126/http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant275/reader/bernier.PDF
Bernier doesn't explicitly classify these groups into color in this
piece, but he does say " if a black African pair be transported to a
cold country, their children are just as black, and so are all their
descendants until they come to marry with white women." Additionally,
he describes their hair as "not properly hair, but rather a species of
wool, which comes near the hairs of some of our dogs". Just an
example of how the "other" is not proper, but rather is animalistic.

For explicit connection between race and color, as well as clear
expressions of white racial superiority, we have Carl Linnaeus to
thank. In the first edition of Systema Naturae, from 1735, he
classififed humans into four subgroups or "varieties" of human species
(later expanded to five), and by the 1758 version these were
specifically associated with color: White (Europeanus), Yellow
(Asiaticus), Black (Africanus), and Red (Americanus).
https://www.nature.com/articles/447028a

To say his descriptions of these "species" feels oddly familiar in our
modern world would be an understatement:

Africanus is desribed as "black, phlegmatic, relaxed; black, frizzled
hair; silky skin, flat nose, tumid lips; females without shame;
mammary glands give milk abundantly; crafty, sly, lazy, cunning,
lustful, careless; anoints himself with grease; and governed by
caprice."

Europeanus, on the other hand, is described as "white, sanguine,
browny; with abundant, long hair; blue eyes; gentle, acute, inventive;
covered with close vestments; and governed by laws."

These are the beginnings of scientific racism, and while it's mostly
rejected these days, it still has modern proponents. Wikipedia has a
good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

Another interesting scientific debate that reveals racism in the
European Enlightenment (and the history of science, lest we think of
it and it's cousin technology somehow innocent of racism)) is
monogenism vs polygenism and the theory of degeneration that the
monogenists posited to explain the differences in race and ethinicity.
The jist of it is that "white" people reflect the "normal" state of
man, and other races have degenerated based on environmental and
climate differences around the world. Moved to a more temperate
climate, Georges-Louis Buffon suggested, a black person from Senegal
would eventually return to his "normal" white, blonde and blue-eyed
state. Clearly wrong, but also clearly racist. And it wasn't some
fringe belief. The likes of David Hume and Immanuel Kant, while
dissagreeing with Buffon that someone could return to "normal" just by
moving to a different climate, agreed that "the Negroes, and in
general all the other species of men [are] naturally inferior to the
whites" (Hume) or that "the Negroes of Africa have by nature no
feeling that rises above the trifling"
https://books.google.com/books?id=eem1AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false


--
Public key #7BBC68D9 at | Shane Williams
http://pgp.mit.edu/ | System Admin - UT CompSci
=----------------------------------+-------------------------------
All syllogisms contain three lines | shanew@shanew.net
Therefore this is not a syllogism | www.ischool.utexas.edu/~shanew

Sir, with all due respect, your extreme arrogance is exceptionally off putting.
You imagine a problem. Then demand it be solved damn the consequences. You
imagined the wrong problem. So your non-solution is doomed. Systemic racism is
in YOUR head not MY head. Respect is in MY head. I am not sure it is in your
head. Respect is the social lubricant you need not stupid word changes. It is
sad you do not see this. And your sublime arrogance about it is rather off putting.

{o.o}

On 20200714 09:24:42, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged language
> and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well researched and
> documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert citations:
> https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The abstract says it very well:
> "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist language in discussions
> concerning predatory publishing. Examples include terminology such as
> blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use of such terms does not merely
> reflect a racist culture, but also serves to legitimize and perpetuate it."
>
> I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social issue, not a
> political issue.  However, I didn't do so unilaterally because that's not how
> projects at Apache work.
>
> When the time comes for a 4.0 release, we, meaning the project management
> commitment, will follow our well documented voting procedures to create and
> approve a release announcement.  I have no interest in causing strife but if it
> quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I will call it a duck.
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 AM Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com
> <mailto:ruga@protonmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> > racially-charged nature of blacklist
>
> There is no such thing.
>
> Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and
> black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be
> judged upon.
>
> On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather turns
> out to be.
>
> On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...
>
> Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not dare
> writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because of
> the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said so,
> and because you are forcing it.
>
> Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not blame
> us for it.
>
>

On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 16:50 -0500, shanew@shanew.net wrote:
> That last bit is plain wrong. Jamestown had Africans as slaves as
> early as 1619,
>
Fair enough - I was ignoring the Spanish because it seems to me,
possibly wrongly, that what they did in that sphere had little influence
on the English-speaking world.

> As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
> Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
> "curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
> because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.
>
Sure, but we're discussing the root of the Xtian association of black
with an evil soul, not with biblically sanctioned skin colour-neutral
slavery.

> > Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black'
> > first coined and where did that happen?

> The quick version is that various "natural philosophers" in the late
> 1600s tried to describe and account for the different "races" that
> they encountered in the world. One famous account is from François
> Bernier, entitled "New Division of the Earth by the Different Species
> or 'Races' of Man that Inhabit It."
>
That just makes my point: that the term 'black list', first documented
to be used by Charles II in 1640 about assuredly used by English persons
with probably some Scandinavian ancestry (William of 1066 fame was of
mixed Norse-French ancestry) was referring to 'black sin' rather than
black skins before said 'natural philosophers', Linnaeus, etc. chose to
apply it to black-skinned people with a racial meaning.

Thanks for that confirmation.

Martin

Social Justice activism is political.

On 7/14/2020 10:24 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social
> issue, not a political issue.

On 11/07/2020 21:39, Axb wrote:

> On 7/11/20 1:32 PM, Antony Stone wrote: On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:
>
> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>
> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>
> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
> diversity of any kind].
>
> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
> towards diversity.
> Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
> when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.
>
> Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
> "insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
> police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.
>
> I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
> is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
> to solve it.
>
> For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
> master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
> therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
> industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
> is no real problem.

Amen to that!
And the ppl pushing these changes now obviously won't step back because
they'd loose their face.

I don't wish them the best. They will be causing a huge amount of ppl a
truckload of grief and unnecessary work.

Axb

100% !

Looks like i'll have to break my lifetime stance and take pity on
bankers and accountants as well huh

I mean no more you're "in the black"

and bugger me, after some news trash out of - you guess it, the USA
about redskins offending indians and some football, I guess they''' have
to stop saying your'e " in the red" too

only in fucking america.

SA is open source enough to fork yeah? I can see that happening

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

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On 13/07/2020 06:48, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate politics, go somewhere else. If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is the place.

Bullshit it isnt a political forum - YOU Kevin made it one !

One which clearly 99% of people you know them, the users? the users
that make SA relative, disagree with.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
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Firstly, not directred at you lbutlr, but to Harry since I dont care to
read his vile trash, BUT,

Let the history note that at 0917 on Wednesday, 15 July 2020, I agreed
with something he allegedly posted.

On 12/07/2020 09:23, @lbutlr wrote:

> On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
>
>> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
>> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
>> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Now, back to OP @lbutlr

> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?

Thats been Harry's trait for years its why he is moderated here, its why
he is moderated or banned from so many lists I lost count over the
years. He's a sociopath as he sees nothing wrong with what he does.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright
protected under international law. You may not disseminate any part of
this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete
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Confidentiality, copyright, and legal privilege are not waived or lost
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On 14/07/2020 19:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.

Ahhhhh now the true dictatorship comes out

"how dare you disagree with me" "dont like you hating on my decisions"
wahh wahhhhhhhhh wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You are the only one being inconsiderate Kevin, if you actually were
serious you would have brought this this out on this list for
discussion, with you know, T H E U S E R S of the software to have
their say, without us YOU are irrelevant.

it shows you treating every single one of us with utter contempt.

YOU made this decision, YOU have to live with ALL the consequences both
good AND bad so suck it up princess.

your attack on people disagreeing with you shows YOU have NO thought to
anyone on this but for jumping on some bandwagon"

As for side of history? pfft I like probably over 50% of this list are
NOT Americans, but the world is used to Americans trying to force their
views down down everyone elses throat.

Feel free to ignore me, I, like most here have made their point very
clear we are disgusted with your dictatorship, we know you don't care
what any of us think, SO let HISTORY also reflect that too!

Since SA does have alternatives, and i get more reasonable debate out of
talking to my rottweilers than you, this ends my waste of time.

On 14 Jul 2020, at 16:20, Ralph Seichter wrote:

> You obviously continue
> to ignore that white/black mean different things across the globe.

Not at all. This is exactly why their use when not referring to colors
is inaccurate and potentially confusing and/or annoying.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)

* Bill Cole:

> On 14 Jul 2020, at 16:20, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>
>> You obviously continue to ignore that white/black mean different
>> things across the globe.
>
> Not at all. This is exactly why their use when not referring to colors
> is inaccurate and potentially confusing and/or annoying.

If you are confused and/or annoyed by the use of colours in compound
terms, that may be harsh for you personally, but please don't imply that
others are operating on a similar limited intellectual level. People
here can understand terms like "whitelist", and, given time, I am
confident you will get there too. Once that is achieved, and if you're
feeling especially adventurous, look up "Black Hand", which you might
consider even more confusing. :-)

Seriously, when will the clutching at straws end? There is no confusion
about the existing terminology, and you know that for a fact, just as
well as I do.

-Ralph

On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
>
> Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
>
> You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> children.
>
> {^_^}

Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
being inclusive is so damned easy.

Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.

Thomas

On 7/10/20 12:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> Amen!
>
> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist) takeover.
> They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or blacklist, this is a
> revolution.
>
> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being
> dispossessed of your house and belongings under the supervision of the
> state, already going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>
> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a
> grip) don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads
> will be on the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>
> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.

Man, your tinfoil hat is on WAY too tight. Inclusivity is not Marxism,
Eric. It's being a decent human being. You should try it some time.

Thomas

Maybe my tinfoil hat is tight, but that is no sin. Slander is a sin, and
you are guilty of it.

To call someone a racist, or white privileged, because they use the term
'blacklist' or 'whitelist' is slander. When you demonize someone or some
people murder is not far behind.

This is nothing but a political move and you know it. You want to put it
in flowery language and tell us all how benevolent you are but in your
"inclusivity" you slander those who oppose you. Slanderers are so
VEEERRRRY inclusive.

You slander people who've done NOTHING wrong telling them they're "not
decent," "racists," "privileged white people," and wackos.

You're hypocrites. This is a very loving society you've put together.

You slander and your conscience doesn't even prick you. You're building
your utopia without God as He's obviously not in your conscience.

What is the promised utopia without God? The Marxist society.

Remember! In the Marxist society the "Useful Idiots" are first heads on
the chopping block. Then, you may wake up from your delusion, but it
will be to late.


On 7/16/2020 12:16 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
> On 7/10/20 12:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Amen!
>>
>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
>> takeover. They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or
>> blacklist, this is a revolution.
>>
>> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being
>> dispossessed of your house and belongings under the supervision of
>> the state, already going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>>
>> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a
>> grip) don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads
>> will be on the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>>
>> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.
>
> Man, your tinfoil hat is on WAY too tight. Inclusivity is not Marxism,
> Eric. It's being a decent human being. You should try it some time.
>
> Thomas

And Linus Torvalds has announced this for the Linux kernel:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/13/linux_adopts_inclusive_language/

/Gaute G

tor. 16. jul. 2020 kl. 08:14 skrev Thomas Cameron <
thomas.cameron@camerontech.com>:

> On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
> >
> > Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> > Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
> >
> > You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> > children.
> >
> > {^_^}
>
> Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
> being inclusive is so damned easy.
>
> Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.
>
> Thomas
>

On 7/14/20 5:55 AM, jdow wrote:
> I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick
> to technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.
>
> {o.o}

LOL - coming from the woman who has been outright insulting,
condescending, and dismissive both on- and off-list, this is a
*hysterical* request. Pot, meet kettle.

<eyeroll>

I think this bit is finally dying down so I will merely point out as the
last, final nail in the coffin on all of this, that the majority of
people on both the Apache and the Linux projects (as well as the other
larger commercial entities like Google, etc. that are engaged in this)
are NOT "people of color" and this entire "movement" about changing
language boiled down is nothing more than yet another example of white
people deciding what is best for people of color - like has been going
on for centuries.

In short, doing this DOES NOT apply ANY more legitimacy to the majority
white on social issues that are in control of these projects than they
had before.

If the "votes" had been RESTRICTED to only people of color who were on
these projects - THEN they would have been legitimate. Of course the
majority white would have been embarrassed if the few people of color
members voted to change nothing so they absolutely weren't going to give
them a chance to do that.

Most people of color undoubtedly prefer that the members of these
projects stick to the technology and stay the fark out of the social
end of things.

Much like the Abortion debates were men have zero zilch business being
involved in the debate, whites really have zero zilch business being
involved in this discussion, either.

The Linux Torvalds thing is just the capstone of White Privilege played
out since HE IS WHITE.

Let me be the first white man to extend an apology to the few people of
color on these projects that we never actually bothered asking your
opinions on something we had no business mucking around with.

Ted

On 7/16/2020 1:49 AM, Gaute Gløersen wrote:
> And Linus Torvalds has announced this for the Linux kernel:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/13/linux_adopts_inclusive_language/
>
> /Gaute G
>
> tor. 16. jul. 2020 kl. 08:14 skrev Thomas Cameron
> <thomas.cameron@camerontech.com <mailto:thomas.cameron@camerontech.com>>:
>
> On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
> >
> > Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> > Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
> >
> > You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> > children.
> >
> > {^_^}
>
> Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
> being inclusive is so damned easy.
>
> Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.
>
> Thomas
>

On Friday 17 July 2020 at 19:17:42, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> this entire "movement" about changing language boiled down is nothing more
> than yet another example of white people deciding what is best for people of
> color - like has been going on for centuries.

I applaud your comment, but I have to say that I think that where it matters
it is falling on deaf ears.

> Let me be the first white man to extend an apology to the few people of
> color on these projects that we never actually bothered asking your
> opinions on something we had no business mucking around with.

Me 2°


Antony.

--
Why are sea-faring brigands unable to calculate the circumference of a circle?
Because they guess the value of Pi.
(Sorry, this joke only really works well in German).

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