Mailing List Archive

Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds too
close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.

{O,o}
i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?

On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>
> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to
> welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>
> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>
> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
> Committed revision 1879456.
>
> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule
> changes will all interweave.
>
> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org> mailing list to
> stay abreast of the changes.*
> *
> *
> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US
of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working
on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy


- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
which
I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.
This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged
language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't
say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> > Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> > too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
> >
> > {O,o}
> > i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
> >
> > On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> >>
> >> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
> >> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
> >>
> >> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
> >>
> >> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
> >> whitelist_to
> >> Committed revision 1879456.
> >>
> >> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
> >> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
> >>
> >> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> >> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
> >> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> Please let me know if you have any questions!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> KAM
> >> --
> >> Kevin A. McGrail
> >> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>

Whatever you do under the hood, make sure it does not affect external behaviour.

On your motivation, bear in mind that *lists here contain computer addresses, not people, so the reference you are trying to fix is mistaken, and changes will be painstaking for no reason at all.

And the terms master and slave have nothing to do with white and black, and again they refer to machine processes, not people.

-------- Original Message --------
On 10 Jul 2020, 06:00, Kevin A. McGrail < kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
IMPORTANT NOTICE

If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.

https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
Committed revision 1879456.

If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule changes will all interweave.

IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the dev@spamassassin.apache.org mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

This is my opinion.
On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org) scritto:

Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy 

- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article  https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3. 

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
>      i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?

>
> This is my opinion.
> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org) scritto:
>
> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>
> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>
> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article  https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>
> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>> {O,o}
>>       i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>> whitelist_to
>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>

There was someone from akamai asking something similar on the openssl
mailing list. I told him to have a look at the composition of the akamai
executive team. I would recommend not redoing the converstation and
leaving this discussion for others to finish. FWIW this type of change
was rejected at openssl, and that seems to be the general attitude
towards such requests.




-----Original Message-----
From: Gianluca Furnarotto [mailto:keysteal@libero.it]
Sent: vrijdag 10 juli 2020 9:13
To: Kevin A. McGrail; Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
series "The Blacklist"?
And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

This is my opinion.


On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
scritto:


Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
been working on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
this:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy

- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
article
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
which I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if
you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171



On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:


the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code
because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms
like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to
replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since
routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the

>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org
<mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:

> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...

While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
who is not working there anymore) and that is
also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.

And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
the death of SA.

Best regards,

Olivier

> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>> {O,o}
>>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>> whitelist_to
>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>

--

Good day Guys

Lads you are being a tad silly.

Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
change(s).

You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
(or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
mean at oneself).

I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
This is a good and right thing to do.

Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
You have my support.

Thank you to all for your work and efforts.

Regards
Brent Clark



On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
>> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
>> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
>> series "The Blacklist"?
>> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
>>
>> This is my opinion.
>> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
>> scritto:
>>
>> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
>> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
>> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>>
>> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
>> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>>
>>
>> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
>> article
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
>> I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>>
>> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
>> joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
>> charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
>> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>> {O,o}
>>>        i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>
>

On 2020/07/10 09:38, Olivier wrote:
>
> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
> the death of SA.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>

Well said.

There is a lot more in play that needs to be understood to all this.

Regards
Brent

"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> [1:text/plain Show]
>
>
> [2:text/html Hide Save:noname (12kB)]
>
> Gents,

Lets be inclusive and assume that some readers on the list may not be
gents, so may even not be women :)

Olivier

>> Good day Guys

You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
thread. ;)

On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
>>> Good day Guys
>
> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
> thread. ;)
>

LOL
Touche

But you right.
I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.

Regards
Brent

One should never let practicality get in the way of political correctness, right?

{O,o}


On 20200710 00:38:06, Olivier wrote:
> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
> who is not working there anymore) and that is
> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.
>
> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
> the death of SA.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>>
>>> {O,o}
>>>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>>
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>

As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents" does not
bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar for every time I
heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women I'd be almost as rich as
poor man Biden.

Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of communications is
a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things break. (eg Mars landers)

{^_^}

On 20200710 00:44:37, Olivier wrote:
> "Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:
>
>> [1:text/plain Show]
>>
>>
>> [2:text/html Hide Save:noname (12kB)]
>>
>> Gents,
>
> Lets be inclusive and assume that some readers on the list may not be
> gents, so may even not be women :)
>
> Olivier
>

The problem is that at least one woman (me) reading this list doesn't give a
tinker's damn. The intent is communicated and that's sufficient to satisfy my
sensibilities. Seems I grew up and became an adult when I wasn't looking. Things
like this just wash by me as I dive in for the meat of the communications.

{^_^}

On 20200710 00:53:07, Brent Clark wrote:
> On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Good day Guys
>>
>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>> thread. ;)
>>
>
> LOL
> Touche
>
> But you right.
> I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.
>
> Regards
> Brent

>>> Good day Guys

On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>thread. ;)

I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
way...

(on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
stood for male and female human)

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete

Well "guys" is used in Northern parts of the US as a gender-neutral plural
noun. The traditionally Southern US equivalent is Y'all or All Y'All. But
yeah, it's likely another artifact of male-dominated culture.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 4:07 AM Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk>
wrote:

> >>> Good day Guys
>
> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
> >You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
> >reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
> >thread. ;)
>
> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
> way...
>
> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
> stood for male and female human)
>
> --
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
> Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
> Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
> Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
>

so glad to read this...
confirms my picture of you.

now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer

On 7/10/20 10:02 AM, jdow wrote:
> The problem is that at least one woman (me) reading this list doesn't
> give a tinker's damn. The intent is communicated and that's sufficient
> to satisfy my sensibilities. Seems I grew up and became an adult when I
> wasn't looking. Things like this just wash by me as I dive in for the
> meat of the communications.
>
> {^_^}
>
> On 20200710 00:53:07, Brent Clark wrote:
>> On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Good day Guys
>>>
>>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>> thread. ;)
>>>
>>
>> LOL
>> Touche
>>
>> But you right.
>> I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.
>>
>> Regards
>> Brent

Let's look at other communities and their responses:

https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677
https://bugs.python.org/issue34605
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html
https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=981129

I see no problem in removing/changing the suggested words with negative connotations with alternatives - especially as the backwards compatibility (software hat on) is being built in.

How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?

Paul

?On 10/07/2020, 08:39, "Brent Clark" <brentgclarklist@gmail.com> wrote:

Good day Guys

Lads you are being a tad silly.

Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
change(s).

You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
(or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
mean at oneself).

I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
This is a good and right thing to do.

Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
You have my support.

Thank you to all for your work and efforts.

Regards
Brent Clark



On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
>> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
>> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
>> series "The Blacklist"?
>> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
>>
>> This is my opinion.
>> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
>> scritto:
>>
>> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
>> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
>> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>>
>> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
>> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>>
>>
>> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
>> article
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
>> I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>>
>> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
>> joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
>> charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
>> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>> {O,o}
>>> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>
>


--
Paul Stead
Senior Engineer
Zen Internet
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Web: zen.co.uk

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Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> writes:

>>>> Good day Guys
>
> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>thread. ;)
>
> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
> way...
>
> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
> stood for male and female human)

I am reasonably sure that whitelist and blacklist have nothing to do
with race, still it has to be changed. So it is a bit strange that you
do not include the greeting part of your message in the inclusiveness.


We should change the name of Serbia and go on a crusade to ban the
word picnic.
Maybe we should also change the terms upper and lower Egypt?
And what about master degrees?
And whitewashing, black eye, black Friday, black market, …?

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

On 2020-07-10 10:19, Paul Stead wrote:
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>

If all of computer science are supposed to be understood by 5 year olds
we're going to have much bigger problems to explain than blacklists...
But sure, I'll give it a shot.

You're afraid of the dark are't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
The term has nothing to do with race.

--
BR/Mvh. Dan Malm, Systems Engineer, One.com

jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:

> As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents"
> does not bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar
> for every time I heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women
> I'd be almost as rich as poor man Biden.
>
> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things
> break. (eg Mars landers)

I agree, but when you ban blacklist and whitelist, it is a bit
inconsistent when you not also take care of the gender terms.
To be honest, I think the gender terms have a better case to be
changed as blacklist and whitelist.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
>the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>Seriously.. you have more important issues...

while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
"welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
While people working with these terms know them, others may not so well.


>On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it
>>sounds too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>>{O,o}
>> ????i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>>On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>>If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>>https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>>The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>whitelist_to
>>>Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>>If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>>*IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>*
>>>*
>>>Please let me know if you have any questions!

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
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