Mailing List Archive

I voted aginst it, loudly.


On 7/11/20 4:35 AM, Noel Butler wrote:
> Who is "we"
>
> Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
> and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
> just because theirs is fucked up?
>
> I want names
>
> I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
> who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
>
> I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
> contributors to the project think
>
> I await your silence
>
> On 11/07/2020 06:27, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>
>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> KAM
>

shanew@shanew.net writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>>> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>>> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
>>> of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it
>>> is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
>>> contributors to the project. C
>>
>> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project
>> have supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the
>> rest of the world.
>> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.
>
> The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
> that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
> explanations for why what you see is not representative of the
> whole.

Maybe giving in to a very small but very loud and aggressive minority
is even worse.


> Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment. Maybe a lot of people
> on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
> that's about SpamAssassin. Maybe a lot of people recognized this
> wasn't a "motion" or a request for comment at all, but rather notice
> of a change to code. Or, as you yourself mention, maybe a lot of
> people are just politely ignoring the negative voices.

You are doing here what you accuse the people you do not agree with.
Are you a democrat. ;-)

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

"Bill Cole" <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> writes:

> On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:
>
>> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>>
>> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ...
>> more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than
>> actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.
>
> Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real
> Problem" that we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of
> our developer community. Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting
> for even a minority of a minority of possible contributors is
> worthwhile, particularly when the block/welcome terminology we are
> replacing black/white with is explicitly descriptive rather than
> metaphorical and connotative.
>
> We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
> because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
> otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors. If
> changing the terminology makes the Project look less like a bunch of
> white guys trying to make rules for the world's email, that's a positive
> step.

That makes no sense at all. It increases the feeling that you want to
appease a little but loudly minority. And probably want to get a warm
cosy feeling inside.

By the way: should the name of the project not be changed also?
Assassin can be very offensive to certain people. This can be changed
without dire consequences.

Black Lives Matter.
White Lives Don't Matter.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8460059/Cambridge-University-backs-academic-tweeted-White-Lives-Dont-Matter.html

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.

Yes, reasonable descriptive. While the original is very clear. So in
my opinion a very stupid move.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org> writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:
>
>> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten.
>> Every user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of
>> hurt on innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on
>> something to mark it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
>> {^_^}
>
> The intent is to be fully backwards-compatible, so it's (hopefully)
> *not* going to be that bad.

The word hopefully makes me feel very secure.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:

> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>
>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam.
>> Oh noes.
>
> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended
> by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and
> I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?

"Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has
been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet
Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent
extended rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the
suggestion that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change
and the blowback from that.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)

On 10 Jul 2020, at 23:51, Bill Cole wrote:

> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue
> has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts,
> as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little
> things.

Reminds me of left-handed people back when I grew up. In my time
children would use chairs with integrated tables that would be fit for
_either_ right- or left-handed people. Since there were more
right-handed children, left-handed people would have to be more creative
to adapt.

So far we know:

* Terms such as blacklist are a minor annoyance
* There's no evidence of "how many people have thought less of SA"
because of the use of the term "blacklist"
* The change has a very non-zero impact _everywhere_ the software is
deployed, as explained by other contributors to this ML

> If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent
> extended rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the
> suggestion that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change
> and the blowback from that.

Sure, are you talking about this?

https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279945071371128834 – "The only
person on that list who looks anything like me is the head of infosec at
Fb"

In here she posts a poll asking whether you would apply to be part of a
board composing by people that don't look like you
– https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279948068411052045

I can't answer for everybody of course, but I would not care how the
current members of a group I wanted to join look. I have been part of
many groups that contained people that did not look like me
– professional and otherwise. Up to that point in the thread, it
seems to me as someone looking for excuses. If I missed something,
please point me to it.

If I continue to look at her tweets, I find examples such as this:
https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1281735488437727233 – she seems
surprised that someone would want to choose compatible people to work
with. I don't know her or the context, and it is not my place to pass
judgement, but I sincerely hope that whomever is in charge has better
justification for this change than this lady's tweet rant.

I do not know the rules under which ASF and SAP operate, but this thread
is evidence that the position you are defending is far from widely
shared, and to me, looks very poorly justified.

Future software? Sure. Get rid of anything remotely offensive _the next
time around_. Start by not using Assassin in the name, Apache in your
organization and not mentioning any colors or university degrees. For
existing, deployed, critical code? Don't change things to win cookie
points.

Best regards

-lem

On 20200710 17:02:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>
>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely
>> offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>
> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use
> of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually
> seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> -lem

More importantly do they really matter? If they cannot take the discomfort off a
word that they have translated into a false meaning I'd suggest they grow up and
join the real world. Diverting resources from constructive use to a use that
will introduce more points of failure in a working product for no tangible
reward is counter productive.

(And over the years I've grown annoyed at the number of tools I built around
spamassassin must be reinvented with updates. I finally gave up trying to keep
auditing tools running. My favorite development hook from 2.x days vanished in
3.x making diagnosing rule malfunctions messier. What will this NEW nonsense
bring for my endless entertainment?)

{^_^}

On 20200710 23:51:19, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the
>> use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never
>> actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been
> raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another
> Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things. If you want a
> direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent extended rant on Twitter by
> Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the suggestion that the Black Hat
> conference was considering a name change and the blowback from that.

When they get upset at words like blacklist I sit bemused if they bothered to
sit back and learn the origination of the N-word. They are calling themselves
black after deploring being called black. So the goal does not seem to be
changing "blacklist". It is simply disruption. If it breaks something, who
cares? Well, I care and don't want to have to fix the carnage from their
(temporary) appeasement. This is particularly true since from here I cannot see
the color of anybody's skin but my own. All I can see is accomplishments. That
is what matters. And declaring that is racist is also declaring that you think
some particular race needs special regard, making you a racist. It's a tricky
word you cannot deploy without revealing it in yourself.

SA is free software. So I get exactly what I pay for, and usually a heck of a
lot more. I'd hate to see it broken. That would break my regard for the
development team, which has taken a couple heavy hits over the years but still
remains relatively high. If having the high regard of users matters let it be
known that another big dose of pain keeping it running will simply move me away.
And there are tools which eventually would break even if foolist and barlist are
synonyms with the latter created due to the former's bad connotations, which are
not bad at all. Eventually foolist goes away or breaks and I have to diagnose
the nonsense. And I am getting too old to bother with nonsense when email
providers have filters I can suffer with or I can simply use something that
works and never upgrade. Either way it would be a loss of one egoboost point to
the developers for whatever that is worth. Bitter experience suggests changes
with no good technical reason for them are dangerous.

{O.O}

On 20200711 00:40:20, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 23:51, Bill Cole wrote:
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has
> been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet
> Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
>
> Reminds me of left-handed people back when I grew up. In my time children would
> use chairs with integrated tables that would be fit for /either/ right- or
> left-handed people. Since there were more right-handed children, left-handed
> people would have to be more creative to adapt.
>
> So far we know:
>
> * Terms such as blacklist are a minor annoyance
> * There's no evidence of "how many people have thought less of SA" because of
> the use of the term "blacklist"
> * The change has a very non-zero impact /everywhere/ the software is deployed,
> as explained by other contributors to this ML
>
> If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent extended
> rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the suggestion
> that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change and the blowback
> from that.
>
> Sure, are you talking about this?
>
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279945071371128834 – "The only person on
> that list who looks anything like me is the head of infosec at Fb"
>
> In here she posts a poll asking whether you would apply to be part of a board
> composing by people that don't look like you –
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279948068411052045
>
> I can't answer for everybody of course, but I would not care how the current
> members of a group I wanted to join look. I have been part of many groups that
> contained people that did not look like me – professional and otherwise. Up to
> that point in the thread, it seems to me as someone looking for excuses. If I
> missed something, please point me to it.
>
> If I continue to look at her tweets, I find examples such as this:
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1281735488437727233 – she seems surprised
> that someone would want to choose compatible people to work with. I don't know
> her or the context, and it is not my place to pass judgement, but I sincerely
> hope that whomever is in charge has better justification for this change than
> this lady's tweet rant.
>
> I do not know the rules under which ASF and SAP operate, but this thread is
> evidence that the position you are defending is far from widely shared, and to
> me, looks very poorly justified.
>
> Future software? Sure. Get rid of anything remotely offensive /the next time
> around/. Start by not using Assassin in the name, Apache in your organization
> and not mentioning any colors or university degrees. For existing, deployed,
> critical code? Don't change things to win cookie points.
>
> Best regards
>
> -lem
>

Female and an RF engineer. Look up what it took for that through 2000. I took up
SW as a sideline hobby that bloomed on its own. And I was pretty unique among
the people writing video software such as used in broadcast production
facilities. "Adapt". Learn to dish it out as well as take it. I watched young
men doing that so I did it. It worked. I am not averse to what works.

Looks like me? Maybe one or two out of a 100 or more who were not secretaries. I
learned to bare my teeth at the mere suggestion that I go get the group some
coffee. I learned to look VERY scary. It worked and engendered some humor.
That's how I (over)learned to be assertive. I do not demand 50% of my peers be
women. I simply demand that 100% of my peers carry their load. For THAT I am a
racist fascist.

Screwit do what you will folks. It just hurts to see people take careful aim at
their foot and shoot.

{^_^}

Concentrating on the technical issues below ...

I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread, myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.

That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for diversity of any kind].

For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat' towards diversity.


Judy.

________________________________
From: Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com>
Sent: 10 July 2020 21:21
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org <users@spamassassin.apache.org>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:

> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>
> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ...
> more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than
> actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.

Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real
Problem" that we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of
our developer community. Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting
for even a minority of a minority of possible contributors is
worthwhile, particularly when the block/welcome terminology we are
replacing black/white with is explicitly descriptive rather than
metaphorical and connotative.

We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors. If
changing the terminology makes the Project look less like a bunch of
white guys trying to make rules for the world's email, that's a positive
step.

> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1
> cars black.

This is a bit less symbolic. We're actually making the terminology
better.

> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...

The intent is to do what we can to make involvement in the SpamAssassin
community less hostile to newcomers, even if elements of hostility that
we can address are not universally recognized as such. We cannot do much
for the bigger Real Problems that intersect with ours tangentially,
because unlike Daimler-Benz, we don't have $100 Million or even $1 to
spend. None of us has the time and skills to make a focused recruiting
effort to get a more diverse set of contributors or even just more
contributors. Changing a few labels in the code is something we CAN do.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)

On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:

> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>
> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>
> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
> diversity of any kind].
>
> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
> towards diversity.

Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.

Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
"insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.

I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
to solve it.

For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
is no real problem.


Antony.

--
I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way
is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_
deficiencies.

- C A R Hoare

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.

On 7/11/20 1:32 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:
>
>> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>>
>> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
>> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>>
>> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
>> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
>> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
>> diversity of any kind].
>>
>> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
>> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
>> towards diversity.
>
> Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
> when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.
>
> Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
> "insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
> police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.
>
> I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
> is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
> to solve it.
>
> For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
> master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
> therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
> industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
> is no real problem.

Amen to that!
And the ppl pushing these changes now obviously won't step back because
they'd loose their face.

I don't wish them the best. They will be causing a huge amount of ppl a
truckload of grief and unnecessary work.

Axb

LOL!!!

On 7/11/2020 2:24 AM, jdow wrote:
>
>
> On 20200710 17:02:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam.
>>> Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended
>> by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and
>> I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>>
>> -lem
>
> More importantly do they really matter? If they cannot take the
> discomfort off a word that they have translated into a false meaning
> I'd suggest they grow up and join the real world. Diverting resources
> from constructive use to a use that will introduce more points of
> failure in a working product for no tangible reward is counter
> productive.
>
> (And over the years I've grown annoyed at the number of tools I built
> around spamassassin must be reinvented with updates. I finally gave up
> trying to keep auditing tools running. My favorite development hook
> from 2.x days vanished in 3.x making diagnosing rule malfunctions
> messier. What will this NEW nonsense bring for my endless entertainment?)
>
> {^_^}

Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
'Rules for Radicals').

One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they
are intent on destroying anything civilized.


On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
> ..., they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...

On Friday 10 July 2020 at 14:37:09, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

> How long until we have to rename electrical and mechanical
> connectors?

Shortly after the astrophysicists have found an inoffensive term for black
holes, various military agencies have stopped running black ops, all the
various meanings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_friday have been
changed, and my poodle has been re-defined as "extreme dark grey".

I'd also just like to remind people:

On Friday 10 July 2020 at 10:30:51, Dan Malm wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
> The term has nothing to do with race.


Antony.

--
If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we'd be so simple that we couldn't.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:

> I do not demand 50% of my peers be women. I simply demand that 100% of
> my peers carry their load. For THAT I am a racist fascist.

Snarf!

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell is an "Aluminum Falcon"?? -- Emperor Palpatine
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
9 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon

On Sat, 2020-07-11 at 06:32 -0600, Eric Broch wrote:
> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
> do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
> tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
> 'Rules for Radicals').
>
Maybe so, but one thing I know it that the people were not fooled by
their Warsaw Pact governments. They knew very well that what they got
was not what they were promised.

I was in Chechoslovakia when Solidarity was the name of the game on
Poland and the Berlin Wall hadn't yet fallen. We met a lot of young East
Germans who were holidaying there because it was the only country they
could get holiday visas for. The one thing we heard from these young
East Germans at some point in a conversation was a variation on "Of
course we know about Marx and his brand of Communism because we had to
study that in school. It sounds wonderful: we just wish we had it in our
country".

We knew then that something was about to change soon, so weren't
surprised when the Wall came down.

Anyway: that was realpolitik. Political correctness is not realpolitik,
even slightly. Its a pity George Orwell isn't around now.

> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because
> they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>
I don't think you have the faintest idea of what a radical is.

Martin

Maybe Apache just need some more figures...
Is there any black lady/gentleman in this list who feels ofended for those terms? please rise you hand...
LET's VOTE...
Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to racism sensibilities?

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Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "Black...

Encuesta online sobre Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to...
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Nice authoritarianism you’ve got there.

> On Jul 11, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>
> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author: 'Rules for Radicals').
>
> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>
>
> On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
>> ..., they're just
>> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...

On 7/11/2020 12:50 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-07-11 at 06:32 -0600, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
>> do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
>> tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
>> 'Rules for Radicals').
>>
> Maybe so, but one thing I know it that the people were not fooled by
> their Warsaw Pact governments. They knew very well that what they got
> was not what they were promised.
>
> I was in Chechoslovakia when Solidarity was the name of the game on
> Poland and the Berlin Wall hadn't yet fallen. We met a lot of young East
> Germans who were holidaying there because it was the only country they
> could get holiday visas for. The one thing we heard from these young
> East Germans at some point in a conversation was a variation on "Of
> course we know about Marx and his brand of Communism because we had to
> study that in school. It sounds wonderful: we just wish we had it in our
> country".
>
> We knew then that something was about to change soon, so weren't
> surprised when the Wall came down.
>
> Anyway: that was realpolitik. Political correctness is not realpolitik,
> even slightly. Its a pity George Orwell isn't around now.
>
>> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because
>> they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>>
> I don't think you have the faintest idea of what a radical is.
>
> Martin
>
Well, if we're going to discuss whether I know what I'm talking about
maybe I should ask whether there is a standard by which we can judge? Is
the standard simply the opinions of men, or is there a higher standard?
Obviously, I believe there is a higher standard and anyone who departs
from that standard in their thinking is a radical. There are varying
degrees of radicalism and varying boundaries among the radicals.

With SA I'm certain that the founders had NO evil motives when borrowing
and using the terms 'whitelist' and 'blacklist.' I assume that the
motive was to create and maintain software helpful to all men regardless
of race. Innocent of any evil intent they most likely didn't give it a
second thought. They are now being swayed into thinking that each one of
them had evil motives all along and that those evil motives have to do
with their whiteness. If this is not racism--a form of radicalism--I
don't know what is. The normal person looks at the words and assumes no
racial slur was intended since, again, the software is intended to help
all alike. The SA team now made aware of their "inherent racism" and
"white privilege" by these radicals will are now bent on placation while
no wrong was ever committed. How does one placate an irrational person,
a radical?  The only ones who try are irrational themselves. As is
obvious in the U.S. right now the radical is not concerned with truth,
justice, or reason, only control. Yes I can tell what a radical is by
comparing their deeds and speech to a higher standard, a moral standard,
if you will, a standard that does not change at whim.

Whether your young East German acquaintances knew it or not they were
under a form of Marxism in East Germany. The same is true in China
today. China is a form of Marxist ideology with minor variations. Of
course there will be differing degrees of oppression between Marxist's
nations making one preferable to another.

There is a difference between having authority to punish crime and
authoritarianism. Do you believe lawlessness is a good thing?

On 7/11/2020 1:49 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Nice authoritarianism you’ve got there.
>
>> On Jul 11, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author: 'Rules for Radicals').
>>
>> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>>
>>
>> On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
>>> ..., they're just
>>> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...

On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.

Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over the last several years.

It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.


--
When the least they could do to you was everything, then the most
they could do to you suddenly held no terror. --Small Gods

On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:04, @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote:
> It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.

If there is anyone paying attention to the mailing list, can you please just kill this thread? It's not providing any useful content at this point and is just churning the same people posting about how terrible it is that they might, possibly but almost certainly really not, suffer the mildest of inconveniences in a small change to the package.

There's literally nothing to see here anymore, if there ever was past the initial post.

And some of you in this thread… wow.




--
I WILL NOT PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO BART Bart chalkboard Ep. 7F09

Most every race has been enslaved at some point or other. They'd have
you believe that only whites were the enslave[ers] of blacks, It goes
with their evil narrative.

What, I am supposed to be offended because my ancestors in the past were
enslaved by Romans or even blacks?

Do they owe me reparations? Am I offended by these terms because
something happened to my ancestors and am I calling for their removal?

No, grow up!

On 7/11/2020 4:04 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>>
>>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>>
>>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
> Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over the last several years.
>
> It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.
>
>