Mailing List Archive

IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave
IMPORTANT NOTICE

If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist
to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.

https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
Committed revision 1879456.

If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and
rule changes will all interweave.

*IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
dev@spamassassin.apache.org <dev@spamassassin.apache.org> mailing list to
stay abreast of the changes.*

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds too
close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.

{O,o}
i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?

On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>
> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to
> welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>
> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>
> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
> Committed revision 1879456.
>
> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule
> changes will all interweave.
>
> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org> mailing list to
> stay abreast of the changes.*
> *
> *
> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US
of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working
on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy


- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
which
I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.
This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged
language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't
say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> > Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> > too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
> >
> > {O,o}
> > i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
> >
> > On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> >>
> >> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
> >> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
> >>
> >> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
> >>
> >> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
> >> whitelist_to
> >> Committed revision 1879456.
> >>
> >> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
> >> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
> >>
> >> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> >> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
> >> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> Please let me know if you have any questions!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> KAM
> >> --
> >> Kevin A. McGrail
> >> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Whatever you do under the hood, make sure it does not affect external behaviour.

On your motivation, bear in mind that *lists here contain computer addresses, not people, so the reference you are trying to fix is mistaken, and changes will be painstaking for no reason at all.

And the terms master and slave have nothing to do with white and black, and again they refer to machine processes, not people.

-------- Original Message --------
On 10 Jul 2020, 06:00, Kevin A. McGrail < kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
IMPORTANT NOTICE

If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.

https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
Committed revision 1879456.

If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule changes will all interweave.

IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the dev@spamassassin.apache.org mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

This is my opinion.
On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org) scritto:

Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy 

- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article  https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3. 

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
>      i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?

>
> This is my opinion.
> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org) scritto:
>
> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>
> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>
> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK article  https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>
> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>> {O,o}
>>       i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>> whitelist_to
>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
There was someone from akamai asking something similar on the openssl
mailing list. I told him to have a look at the composition of the akamai
executive team. I would recommend not redoing the converstation and
leaving this discussion for others to finish. FWIW this type of change
was rejected at openssl, and that seems to be the general attitude
towards such requests.




-----Original Message-----
From: Gianluca Furnarotto [mailto:keysteal@libero.it]
Sent: vrijdag 10 juli 2020 9:13
To: Kevin A. McGrail; Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
series "The Blacklist"?
And the next would be to delete the word "black"?

This is my opinion.


On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
scritto:


Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
been working on this type of change for quite some time.

- We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
this:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy

- And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
article
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
which I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.

So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if
you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171



On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:


the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
Seriously.. you have more important issues...

On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code
because it sounds
> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>
> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>
>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms
like
>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>
>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to
replacing
>> whitelist_to
>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>
>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since
routines,
>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>
>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the

>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org
<mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>> *
>> *
>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:

> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> Seriously.. you have more important issues...

While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
who is not working there anymore) and that is
also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.

And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
the death of SA.

Best regards,

Olivier

> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>> {O,o}
>>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>> whitelist_to
>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
>

--
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Good day Guys

Lads you are being a tad silly.

Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
change(s).

You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
(or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
mean at oneself).

I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
This is a good and right thing to do.

Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
You have my support.

Thank you to all for your work and efforts.

Regards
Brent Clark



On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
>> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
>> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
>> series "The Blacklist"?
>> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
>>
>> This is my opinion.
>> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
>> scritto:
>>
>> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
>> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
>> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>>
>> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
>> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>>
>>
>> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
>> article
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
>> I brought to the PMC on 4/5.  We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>>
>> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
>> joke.  This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
>> charged language.  I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
>> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>> {O,o}
>>>        i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 2020/07/10 09:38, Olivier wrote:
>
> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
> the death of SA.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>

Well said.

There is a lot more in play that needs to be understood to all this.

Regards
Brent
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> [1:text/plain Show]
>
>
> [2:text/html Hide Save:noname (12kB)]
>
> Gents,

Lets be inclusive and assume that some readers on the list may not be
gents, so may even not be women :)

Olivier
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
>> Good day Guys

You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
thread. ;)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
>>> Good day Guys
>
> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
> thread. ;)
>

LOL
Touche

But you right.
I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.

Regards
Brent
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
One should never let practicality get in the way of political correctness, right?

{O,o}


On 20200710 00:38:06, Olivier wrote:
> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
> who is not working there anymore) and that is
> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.
>
> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
> the death of SA.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>>
>>> {O,o}
>>>     i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>>
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents" does not
bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar for every time I
heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women I'd be almost as rich as
poor man Biden.

Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of communications is
a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things break. (eg Mars landers)

{^_^}

On 20200710 00:44:37, Olivier wrote:
> "Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:
>
>> [1:text/plain Show]
>>
>>
>> [2:text/html Hide Save:noname (12kB)]
>>
>> Gents,
>
> Lets be inclusive and assume that some readers on the list may not be
> gents, so may even not be women :)
>
> Olivier
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
The problem is that at least one woman (me) reading this list doesn't give a
tinker's damn. The intent is communicated and that's sufficient to satisfy my
sensibilities. Seems I grew up and became an adult when I wasn't looking. Things
like this just wash by me as I dive in for the meat of the communications.

{^_^}

On 20200710 00:53:07, Brent Clark wrote:
> On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Good day Guys
>>
>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>> thread. ;)
>>
>
> LOL
> Touche
>
> But you right.
> I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.
>
> Regards
> Brent
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
>>> Good day Guys

On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>thread. ;)

I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
way...

(on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
stood for male and female human)

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Well "guys" is used in Northern parts of the US as a gender-neutral plural
noun. The traditionally Southern US equivalent is Y'all or All Y'All. But
yeah, it's likely another artifact of male-dominated culture.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 4:07 AM Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk>
wrote:

> >>> Good day Guys
>
> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
> >You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
> >reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
> >thread. ;)
>
> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
> way...
>
> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
> stood for male and female human)
>
> --
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
> Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
> Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
> Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
so glad to read this...
confirms my picture of you.

now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer

On 7/10/20 10:02 AM, jdow wrote:
> The problem is that at least one woman (me) reading this list doesn't
> give a tinker's damn. The intent is communicated and that's sufficient
> to satisfy my sensibilities. Seems I grew up and became an adult when I
> wasn't looking. Things like this just wash by me as I dive in for the
> meat of the communications.
>
> {^_^}
>
> On 20200710 00:53:07, Brent Clark wrote:
>> On 2020/07/10 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Good day Guys
>>>
>>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>> thread. ;)
>>>
>>
>> LOL
>> Touche
>>
>> But you right.
>> I need to remember to start with 'Good day All'.
>>
>> Regards
>> Brent
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Let's look at other communities and their responses:

https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677
https://bugs.python.org/issue34605
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html
https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=981129

I see no problem in removing/changing the suggested words with negative connotations with alternatives - especially as the backwards compatibility (software hat on) is being built in.

How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?

Paul

?On 10/07/2020, 08:39, "Brent Clark" <brentgclarklist@gmail.com> wrote:

Good day Guys

Lads you are being a tad silly.

Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
change(s).

You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
(or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
mean at oneself).

I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
This is a good and right thing to do.

Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
You have my support.

Thank you to all for your work and efforts.

Regards
Brent Clark



On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
>> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
>> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
>> series "The Blacklist"?
>> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
>>
>> This is my opinion.
>> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
>> scritto:
>>
>> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
>> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
>> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
>>
>> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
>> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
>>
>>
>> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
>> article
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
>> I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
>>
>> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
>> joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
>> charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
>> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
>>
>> Regards,
>> KAM
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
>>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>> {O,o}
>>> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>>
>>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>>
>>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>> whitelist_to
>>>> Committed revision 1879456.
>>>>
>>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>>
>>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
>>
>
>


--
Paul Stead
Senior Engineer
Zen Internet
Direct: 01706 902018
Web: zen.co.uk

Winner of 'Services Company of the Year' at the UK IT Industry Awards

This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system.

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Zen Internet Limited is registered in England and Wales, Sandbrook Park, Sandbrook Way, Rochdale, OL11 1RY Company No. 03101568 VAT Reg No. 686 0495 01
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> writes:

>>>> Good day Guys
>
> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>thread. ;)
>
> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
> way...
>
> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
> stood for male and female human)

I am reasonably sure that whitelist and blacklist have nothing to do
with race, still it has to be changed. So it is a bit strange that you
do not include the greeting part of your message in the inclusiveness.


We should change the name of Serbia and go on a crusade to ban the
word picnic.
Maybe we should also change the terms upper and lower Egypt?
And what about master degrees?
And whitewashing, black eye, black Friday, black market, …?

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 2020-07-10 10:19, Paul Stead wrote:
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>

If all of computer science are supposed to be understood by 5 year olds
we're going to have much bigger problems to explain than blacklists...
But sure, I'll give it a shot.

You're afraid of the dark are't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
The term has nothing to do with race.

--
BR/Mvh. Dan Malm, Systems Engineer, One.com
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:

> As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents"
> does not bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar
> for every time I heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women
> I'd be almost as rich as poor man Biden.
>
> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things
> break. (eg Mars landers)

I agree, but when you ban blacklist and whitelist, it is a bit
inconsistent when you not also take care of the gender terms.
To be honest, I think the gender terms have a better case to be
changed as blacklist and whitelist.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
>the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>Seriously.. you have more important issues...

while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
"welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
While people working with these terms know them, others may not so well.


>On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
>>Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it
>>sounds too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>>
>>{O,o}
>> ????i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
>>
>>On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>IMPORTANT NOTICE
>>>
>>>If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
>>>whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>>>
>>>https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
>>>
>>>The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
>>>whitelist_to
>>>Committed revision 1879456.
>>>
>>>If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
>>>plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>>>
>>>*IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
>>>dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>>mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
>>>*
>>>*
>>>Please let me know if you have any questions!

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Linux - It's now safe to turn on your computer.
Linux - Teraz mozete pocitac bez obav zapnut.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Historical precedent, which if changed breaks too many very valuable tools.

That "get the fork out of there" anecdote is 100% true. I was a part of the
project using GRiD OS which used a lot of UNIX derived nomenclature. Fork was
one such word. The AF had EDS proof reading the documents. EDS had some er "new
hires" doing job. We had to patiently describe to them that "fork" was a term of
art and was embedded within the OS on which the project rode. It was a very
surrealistic fight. This blacklist/whitelist nonsense rivals it. Next we have
problems in the security world with "Black" and "Red" worlds? Get used to it
snowflakes. Fixing what works is as fine a way to introduce new faults in the
code as I can think of.

{^_^}


On 20200710 01:19:12, Paul Stead wrote:
> Let's look at other communities and their responses:
>
> https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677
> https://bugs.python.org/issue34605
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html
> https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435
> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=981129
>
> I see no problem in removing/changing the suggested words with negative connotations with alternatives - especially as the backwards compatibility (software hat on) is being built in.
>
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>
> Paul
>
> ?On 10/07/2020, 08:39, "Brent Clark" <brentgclarklist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good day Guys
>
> Lads you are being a tad silly.
>
> Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
> change(s).
>
> You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
> the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
> (or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
> By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
> mean at oneself).
>
> I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
> This is a good and right thing to do.
>
> Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
> You have my support.
>
> Thank you to all for your work and efforts.
>
> Regards
> Brent Clark
>
>
>
> On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> > On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> >> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
> >> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
> >> series "The Blacklist"?
> >> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
> >
> > wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
> >
> >>
> >> This is my opinion.
> >> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
> >> scritto:
> >>
> >> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
> >> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
> >> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
> >>
> >> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
> >> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
> >>
> >>
> >> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
> >> article
> >> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
> >> I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
> >>
> >> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
> >> joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
> >> charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
> >> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> KAM
> >> --
> >> Kevin A. McGrail
> >> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> >> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
> >>
> >> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> >>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> >>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
> >>> {O,o}
> >>> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
> >>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
> >>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
> >>>>
> >>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
> >>>> whitelist_to
> >>>> Committed revision 1879456.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
> >>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
> >>>>
> >>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> >>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
> >>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
> >>>> *
> >>>> *
> >>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> KAM
> >>>> --
> >>>> Kevin A. McGrail
> >>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Stead
> Senior Engineer
> Zen Internet
> Direct: 01706 902018
> Web: zen.co.uk
>
> Winner of 'Services Company of the Year' at the UK IT Industry Awards
>
> This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system.
>
> Zen Internet Limited may monitor email traffic data to manage billing, to handle customer enquiries and for the prevention and detection of fraud. We may also monitor the content of emails sent to and/or from Zen Internet Limited for the purposes of security, staff training and to monitor quality of service.
>
> Zen Internet Limited is registered in England and Wales, Sandbrook Park, Sandbrook Way, Rochdale, OL11 1RY Company No. 03101568 VAT Reg No. 686 0495 01
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Besides, they are not black and Irish me is not white. We are all various shades
of beige. And I am a racist because I judge people on their own individual
actions, capabilities, and initiative. So surely that is being racist, at least
as seen by people who deep inside feel that the people who call themselves black
when they aren't (for the most part not even close) are really inferior. They
are admitting their own racism. I'm a capability-ist if anything.

{^_^}

On 20200710 01:30:27, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> writes:
>
>>>>> Good day Guys
>>
>> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>> thread. ;)
>>
>> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
>> way...
>>
>> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
>> stood for male and female human)
>
> I am reasonably sure that whitelist and blacklist have nothing to do
> with race, still it has to be changed. So it is a bit strange that you
> do not include the greeting part of your message in the inclusiveness.
>
>
> We should change the name of Serbia and go on a crusade to ban the
> word picnic.
> Maybe we should also change the terms upper and lower Egypt?
> And what about master degrees?
> And whitewashing, black eye, black Friday, black market, …?
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Hi,

One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
compatibility.

While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.

But the realy main issue is compatibility.

Best regards,

Olivier
--
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I have gentle fun in some of my code and note I have a pointer to my mommy. I
figure people can figure that out and get the chuckle. Of course, that's in my
own code for myself and maybe others if I toss it onto GitHub. I also stick in
the occasional Daddy. So it might even out. I don't obsess at that level. I just
try my level best, which is not as good as I'd like, to get it right.

{^_^}

On 20200710 01:35:16, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents"
>> does not bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar
>> for every time I heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women
>> I'd be almost as rich as poor man Biden.
>>
>> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
>> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things
>> break. (eg Mars landers)
>
> I agree, but when you ban blacklist and whitelist, it is a bit
> inconsistent when you not also take care of the gender terms.
> To be honest, I think the gender terms have a better case to be
> changed as blacklist and whitelist.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.


SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally
confusing
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 01:53:30, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
>> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
>
>
> SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally confusing

Oh, you're supposed to ignore that pesky detail. It bothers the snowflakes.

(Rule number one: Do NOT wake Joanne up.)

{^_-}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 01:46:55, Olivier wrote:
> Hi,
>
> One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
> renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
> see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
> compatibility.
>
> While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
> renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
> conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.
>
> But the realy main issue is compatibility.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>

Quick, somebody - fork the project while they er "fork" it.

{^_-}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Not responding to any of the messages in particular, but it may be worth to weigh in.

dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org/> will do a rebranding to a socially less loaded terminology. We have not decided on a new branding yet and do not yet have a timeline (renaming a project with 14 years of history has some different implications than renaming in code / config).

Of course we will provide backwards compatibility on the „list.dnswl.org <http://list.dnswl.org/>“ and other names which are in use today for the coming years.

And yes, theoretically we could simply re-use the „w“ for „welcome“ :)

— Matthias, with the dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org/> hat on
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 2020-07-10 10:36, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:

> On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.

I agree that "welcome" is better than "allow", in as much as there are
actually three categories:
- blacklisted, i.e. rejected

- whitelisted, i.e. entitled to special treatment
- neither, i.e. allowed but not entitled to special treatment

But the whole thing is political correctness taken a step too far.
We have perfectly good, long-established terms that are well defined and
well understood, and that are derived from colour names, not racial
qualifiers.
If the inventors of the terms had called them redlist and greenlist,
would we be renaming them in case communists and environmentalists felt
offended? :-)

--
John
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 10:57 AM, jdow wrote:
> On 20200710 01:53:30, Axb wrote:
>> On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>>> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
>>> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
>>
>>
>> SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally
>> confusing
>
> Oh, you're supposed to ignore that pesky detail. It bothers the snowflakes.
>
> (Rule number one: Do NOT wake Joanne up.)
>
> {^_-}


When Joanne is awake is when this list gets really interesting...
Sometimes I'm homesick for a time in my SA life...
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
The renaming is only occurring in 4.0.0 codebase. We have no timeline for
when 4.0 will come out but there will be plenty of warning and UPGRADE
notices about the nomenclature changes which include backwards
compatibility with the old nomenclature but documented as deprecated. The
old nomenclature will not be removed for at least a year and only when we
jump to 4.1.0

NOTE: 3.4.5 which is being worked on is just a bug fix without nomenclature
changes. 3.4.5-pre1 came out a week or so ago and I'll look to build a
pre2 with some more minor fixes.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 4:58 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 20200710 01:46:55, Olivier wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
> > renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
> > see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
> > compatibility.
> >
> > While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
> > renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
> > conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.
> >
> > But the realy main issue is compatibility.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Olivier
> >
>
> Quick, somebody - fork the project while they er "fork" it.
>
> {^_-}
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
An important part of etymology is the of use of words in the perspective of the modern world.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

Many of the discussions I've read on this have views on either side of the argument and tend to go on for a very long time.

Personally, it's a keyword that gets changed in code and aliased back for backwards compatibility - as long as it all works, that's ok with me.

Paul

?On 10/07/2020, 09:31, "Dan Malm" <dam@one.com> wrote:

On 2020-07-10 10:19, Paul Stead wrote:
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>

If all of computer science are supposed to be understood by 5 year olds
we're going to have much bigger problems to explain than blacklists...
But sure, I'll give it a shot.

You're afraid of the dark are't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
The term has nothing to do with race.

--
BR/Mvh. Dan Malm, Systems Engineer, One.com


--
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Senior Engineer
Zen Internet
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Web: zen.co.uk

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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
$0.02 from a woman of colour ...

I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ... more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.

Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1 cars black.

I'm sure the intent was positive though ...

Judy.

________________________________
From: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Sent: 10 July 2020 05:00
To: SA Mailing list <users@spamassassin.apache.org>
Subject: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

IMPORTANT NOTICE

If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.

https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
Committed revision 1879456.

If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule changes will all interweave.

IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the dev@spamassassin.apache.org<mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 01:59:10, Matthias Leisi wrote:
> Not responding to any of the messages in particular, but it may be worth to
> weigh in.
>
> dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org> will do a rebranding to a socially less loaded
> terminology. We have not decided on a new branding yet and do not yet have a
> timeline (renaming a project with 14 years of history has some different
> implications than renaming in code / config).
>
> Of course we will provide backwards compatibility on the „list.dnswl.org
> <http://list.dnswl.org>“ and other names which are in use today for the coming
> years.
>
> And yes, theoretically we could simply re-use the „w“ for „welcome“ :)
>
> — Matthias, with the dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org> hat on

Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark? Are we
going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?

You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you, children.

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Blacklist means "protection", so it is something positive...
Whielist is for something wrong you cannot solve... 
so where is the problem?  
this is like the change from SystemV to SystemD    plesae stop creating new problems!!!!!!!!!
-----Pedro
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Hey Pedro, I don't know for sure, I do not want to create a new problem,
but this yahoo, was this word not used during the railroad building to
encourage and push slaves to work harder? Would you mind using different
email address?




-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Blacklist means "protection", so it is something positive...

Whielist is for something wrong you cannot solve...

so where is the problem?

this is like the change from SystemV to SystemD plesae stop creating
new problems!!!!!!!!!

-----
Pedro
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 3:23 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> > This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
> > And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
Naah, just put it in the banned list.[1] Also, nothing like
a good wholesome book burning [2][3] to show you are hip and in sync
with modern thinking.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_books_banned_by_governments
[2] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/book-burning
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:12 AM hospice admin <hospice.it@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>
> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ... more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.
>
Thank you for pointing out this Emperor is butt-naked, and it
sure is not a pretty sight.

> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1 cars black.
>
> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...
>
There is also this road which is amazingly well paved due to
this overflowing of good intentions.

> Judy.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
>On Friday, July 10, 2020, 12:26:59 PM GMT+2, Marc Roos <m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>Hey Pedro, I don't know for sure, I do not want to create a new problem,
>but this yahoo, was this word not used during the railroad building to
>encourage and push slaves to work harder? Would you mind using different
>email address?


Agree Marc... indeed i will change my name becasue "Pedro" was the guy who negated Jesuschrist three times...
:-(
-----Pedro.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
>On Friday, July 10, 2020, 10:10:20 AM GMT+2, Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

>so glad to read this... confirms my picture of you.

>now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer

OK... who starts??? :-)
once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...

------Pedro
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 10:36 +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
> > the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> > Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
> While people working with these terms know them, others may not so
> well.
>
Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
more meaningful pair of terms.

Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
server rather than slave and master. While I see no need to use 'slave'
term outside its historic and ongoing human designation, I do see a
continuing use for 'master', where it describes a unique object that is
frequently replicated of a person with extensive understanding of a body
of knowledge, e.g. master (of a sailing ship), master craftsman, or a
qualification: MSc, MA, etc.

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 12:07 +0000, Pedro David Marco wrote:
> OK... who starts??? :-)
> once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...
>
That's already been sort of redefined: see https://xkcd.com/556/

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:16 AM Martin Gregorie <martin@gregorie.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 10:36 +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> > On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
> > > the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> > > Seriously.. you have more important issues...
> >
> > while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> > "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
> > While people working with these terms know them, others may not so
> > well.
> >
> Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
> more meaningful pair of terms.
>
I do agree that accept works better than welcome here.

> Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
> server rather than slave and master. While I see no need to use 'slave'

I will argue that the master/slave connotation implies a
dependency: a slave DNS server will take updates pushed by the master.
Server/client connotation not only does not have that meaning (clients
can cheerfully ignore the server) but also then you have

1. Client DNS server and Server DNS server. Confused already or just
concerned about a call from the Redundant Ministry of Redundant
Redundancies?
2. A "server" is also someone who serves, same root as "servant." Soon
enough someone will say that also implies servitude and slavely.

> term outside its historic and ongoing human designation, I do see a
> continuing use for 'master', where it describes a unique object that is
> frequently replicated of a person with extensive understanding of a body
> of knowledge, e.g. master (of a sailing ship), master craftsman, or a
> qualification: MSc, MA, etc.
>
How long until we have to rename electrical and mechanical connectors?

> Martin
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:16:15 +0100
Martin Gregorie wrote:

>>I think that "welcome list" and " list" are more informational

> Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
> more meaningful pair of terms.

Welcome is the only one that is meaningful; accept, block and reject are
absolute terms for rules that only contribute to a score which in turn
is one factor in deciding whether to accept, reject/block or file to a
Spam folder.


> Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
> server rather than slave and master.

In electrons and computing client/server and master/slave relationships
are different things. A server provides a service for clients, a master
controls slaves.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 8:07 AM, Pedro David Marco wrote:
> >On Friday, July 10, 2020, 10:10:20 AM GMT+2, Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >so glad to read this... confirms my picture of you.
>
> >now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer
>
> OK... who starts??? :-)
>
> once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...

Perhaps if we were still calling black people Injun Joe, people were
advocating for burning all previous copies, and scouring the Internet
for all previous occurrences of SpamAssassin and deleting them, you
might have a point.

Even Mark Twain by 1876 was becoming increasingly embarrassed by his
failure to question the racist status quo of the world in which he had
grown up.

Regards,
Dave




>
>
> ------
> Pedro
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10/07/2020 16:42, jdow wrote:

> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?

I agree, this is just insanity... where will it end.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Kevin A. McGrail:

> This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially charged
> language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least if you can't
> say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.

Is it the official Apache.org position to tell those with differing
opinions to "keep it to yourselves", while trying to take the moral high
ground at the same time? What arrogance.

As I explained in https://marc.info/?l=postfix-users&m=159147052306770&w=2
and other messages of that particular thread, this is very much an
American issue. What may be considered "racially charged" in the US does
not have nearly the same implications across the globe. Language, as
always, depends on context. Americans who want to tell me what terms I
can or cannot use can take a hike.

Racists are assholes, but "Newspeak" is not the solution.

-Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> On Jul 9, 2020, at 9:00 PM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE
>
> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
>
> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826 <https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826>
>
> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
> Committed revision 1879456.
>
> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
>

(Bottom posting because I can)

One thing I’m now noticing is that there is no longer consistency. Previous it was blacklist/whitelist and now we have…

Welcomelist/blocklist
Yeslist/nolist
Allowlist/denylist
Permitlist/rejectlist

And looking through the list of URLs that Paul Stead shared, it goes even further.

There’s no consistency, and I can’t imagine that will go without its own set of issues in the future.

I also (playfully) note the irony of this while I am sitting on land in the great Choctaw Nation - the very icon of this project can be considered by some to be appropriation of Native American culture. ;-)

Cheers!

jn
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Amen!

This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist) takeover.
They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or blacklist, this is a
revolution.

Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being dispossessed
of your house and belongings under the supervision of the state, already
going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.

The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a grip)
don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads will be on
the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.

These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.


On 7/10/2020 8:14 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> ..., but "Newspeak" is not the solution.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not... but just in case:
Whoever may be the Marxist/Socialists, the're definitely not in the
US... Assuming you never lived under such a government you're just
talking thru your hat.

and now lets put this offtopic blah to rest.



On 7/10/20 7:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> Amen!
>
> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist) takeover.
> They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or blacklist, this is a
> revolution.
>
> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being dispossessed
> of your house and belongings under the supervision of the state, already
> going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>
> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a grip)
> don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads will be on
> the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>
> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.
>
>
> On 7/10/2020 8:14 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>> ..., but "Newspeak" is not the solution.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
My comments were not sarcasm.

You're acting the part of a Marxist by dismissing my (and others)
speech. You are playing the "Useful Idiot."

You say there are no Marxists in the U.S. but that's exactly what BLM
claims to be. Also, you will know them by their fruits whether they say
it or not. You make the judgment, but you may be beyond that ability.

My words are intended to help you recover yourself, hopefully these
words don't fall on deaf ears. If so, so be it.

Eric Broch


On 7/10/2020 11:11 AM, Axb wrote:
> Not sure if this is sarcasm or not... but just in case:
> Whoever may be the Marxist/Socialists, the're definitely not in the
> US... Assuming you never lived under such a government you're just
> talking thru your hat.
>
> and now lets put this offtopic blah to rest.
>
>
>
> On 7/10/20 7:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Amen!
>>
>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
>> takeover. They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or
>> blacklist, this is a revolution.
>>
>> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being
>> dispossessed of your house and belongings under the supervision of
>> the state, already going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>>
>> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a
>> grip) don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads
>> will be on the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>>
>> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/2020 8:14 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>>> ..., but "Newspeak" is not the solution.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Eric Broch:

> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
> takeover.

Huh? Please don't quote me when talking nonsense such as this. It is of
course about racism. I just don't consider "improving language" (an ugly
euphemism, by the way) a productive way to deal with this issue.

-Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
There is NO issue!

And, this is the point. Using the term "blacklist" in reference to an
email server IS NOT RACIST. It was never used to infer anything of the
sort, so when people say that they must be rid of it because it is
racist, there's another agenda going on. Futhermore, "nonsense" is doing
something for no reason, like replacing the word "blacklist" with
something else.

You may have noticed that after every piece of ground is yielded up to
the whiners there is only louder and more violent calls for more ground.
The whiners are never satisfied until you're subjugated. Please recover
yourself!

As stated earlier by another very aware poster, this is nothing less
than, "Newspeak." As most know Newspeak is intend to dumb down the
population.

The unwitting don't know they're unwitting. If you can't see after this
post, there's nothing more to be said.


On 7/10/2020 11:26 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> * Eric Broch:
>
>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
>> takeover.
> Huh? Please don't quote me when talking nonsense such as this. It is of
> course about racism. I just don't consider "improving language" (an ugly
> euphemism, by the way) a productive way to deal with this issue.
>
> -Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
So!

What's next, changing the "Apache" name?

Wake up!

On 7/10/2020 12:00 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> There is NO issue!
>
> And, this is the point. Using the term "blacklist" in reference to an
> email server IS NOT RACIST. It was never used to infer anything of the
> sort, so when people say that they must be rid of it because it is
> racist, there's another agenda going on. Futhermore, "nonsense" is
> doing something for no reason, like replacing the word "blacklist"
> with something else.
>
> You may have noticed that after every piece of ground is yielded up to
> the whiners there is only louder and more violent calls for more
> ground. The whiners are never satisfied until you're subjugated.
> Please recover yourself!
>
> As stated earlier by another very aware poster, this is nothing less
> than, "Newspeak." As most know Newspeak is intend to dumb down the
> population.
>
> The unwitting don't know they're unwitting. If you can't see after
> this post, there's nothing more to be said.
>
>
> On 7/10/2020 11:26 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>> * Eric Broch:
>>
>>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
>>> takeover.
>> Huh? Please don't quote me when talking nonsense such as this. It is of
>> course about racism. I just don't consider "improving language" (an ugly
>> euphemism, by the way) a productive way to deal with this issue.
>>
>> -Ralph
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Yes, as of now we don't write apache but ehcapa. If we write every word
in reverse nobody has anything to complain any more. So everyone
continuing this thread. Please pay you respect to past generations, and
write ehcapa, tsiletihw, tsilkcalb etc!!!



-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

So!

What's next, changing the "Apache" name?

Wake up!
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
LOL!

On 7/10/2020 12:12 PM, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
> Yes, as of now we don't write apache but ehcapa. If we write every word
> in reverse nobody has anything to complain any more. So everyone
> continuing this thread. Please pay you respect to past generations, and
> write ehcapa, tsiletihw, tsilkcalb etc!!!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
> Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave
>
> So!
>
> What's next, changing the "Apache" name?
>
> Wake up!
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 3:06, Rupert Gallagher wrote:

> Whatever you do under the hood, make sure it does not affect external
> behaviour.
>
> On your motivation, bear in mind that *lists here contain computer
> addresses, not people,

Which is an argument FOR changing our terminology.

> so the reference you are trying to fix is mistaken, and changes will
> be painstaking for no reason at all.

That misses the actual rationale for the change.

There's a semantic collision in English where "Black" and "White" are
used both to classify people and to denote moral and/or desirability
dichotomies. That semantic collision can be removed from our code, while
improving the clarity of our naming.

The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact
it is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the
existing contributors to the project. Continuing to use 'black' and
'white' as indicators of value in code and configuration directives
leaves in place a minor nuisance for some potential contributors and
users who are understandably tired of being on the bad side of this
semantic collision, where the most common word for their ethnic identity
is constantly being used as a label for things which are bad,
undesirable, malfeasant, etc. The naming collision is a problem and
because the inanimate entities for which we use black and white do not
in fact have any color we can both eliminate the collision AND improve
the quality of the names we use.


> And the terms master and slave have nothing to do with white and
> black, and again they refer to machine processes, not people.

This is actually almost irrelevant for SA. The main use of the
master/slave metaphor is in the automation backend for rule QA (e.g.
build/jenkins/run_build) where it merits changing simply because it is
no longer consistent with the terminology used by Jenkins. In spamd,
parent/child is already the terminology and fits the actual code better.



--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Eric Broch:

> As stated earlier by another very aware poster, this is nothing less
> than, "Newspeak."

That was actually me, in message <87lfjr78zu.fsf@wedjat.horus-it.com>.
However, you did not quote the first part of the sentence, which I
consider just as important:

>> Racists are assholes, but "Newspeak" is not the solution.

Looking at the content of your website, I don't want to be associated
with your world views in general. We just seem to share a dislike for
Newspeak.

-Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
jdow skrev den 2020-07-10 08:42:
> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it
> sounds too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
>
> {O,o}
> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?

+10000000 :-)

hope its not a question anymore
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
> of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact
> it is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the
> existing contributors to the project. C

From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project
have supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the rest
of the world.
Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.

but then.. it's the generic way the USA treats most of its problems:
whitewash the front while the rest falls apart.
(infrastructure, education system, health system, etc, etc..)

whatever, you get your way and everybody is happy.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:

> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
>> of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it
>> is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
>> contributors to the project. C
>
> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project have
> supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the rest of the
> world.
> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.

The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
explanations for why what you see is not representative of the whole.

Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment. Maybe a lot of people
on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
that's about SpamAssassin. Maybe a lot of people recognized this
wasn't a "motion" or a request for comment at all, but rather notice
of a change to code. Or, as you yourself mention, maybe a lot of
people are just politely ignoring the negative voices.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 01:38, Olivier <Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th> wrote:
> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
> who is not working there anymore) and that is
> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.

If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.

> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
> the death of SA.

If it cannot function without being offensive to many people, then so be it.

Allow/deny I think are better than welcome/block, but I don't care.

Allow/block might be better too.



--
"He is of Asgard, and he is my brother"
> He killed 80 people in 2 days.
"He's adopted."
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 02:02, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The problem is that at least one woman (me) reading this list doesn't give a tinker's damn. The intent is communicated and that's sufficient to satisfy my sensibilities. Seems I grew up and became an adult when I wasn't looking. Things like this just wash by me as I dive in for the meat of the communications.

Do you realize that your stametemnt is saying that people who are offended by terms they find hurtful are immature insensible and lesser than you? In addition you are saying that since YOU do not care, no one else's feeling are valid.



--
This zone of tranquility is compromised
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 02:06, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> wrote:
> thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
> way…

Yes, guy/s is gender neutral, but many women do not agree.




--
Train Station: where the train stops. Work Station: …
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:

> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>
> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ...
> more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than
> actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.

Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real
Problem" that we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of
our developer community. Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting
for even a minority of a minority of possible contributors is
worthwhile, particularly when the block/welcome terminology we are
replacing black/white with is explicitly descriptive rather than
metaphorical and connotative.

We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors. If
changing the terminology makes the Project look less like a bunch of
white guys trying to make rules for the world's email, that's a positive
step.

> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1
> cars black.

This is a bit less symbolic. We're actually making the terminology
better.

> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...

The intent is to do what we can to make involvement in the SpamAssassin
community less hostile to newcomers, even if elements of hostility that
we can address are not universally recognized as such. We cannot do much
for the bigger Real Problems that intersect with ours tangentially,
because unlike Daimler-Benz, we don't have $100 Million or even $1 to
spend. None of us has the time and skills to make a focused recruiting
effort to get a more diverse set of contributors or even just more
contributors. Changing a few labels in the code is something we CAN do.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Hello all,

A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
instead, for example allow/deny.

The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
4.0 is released with the new configuration options.

Regards,

KAM
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 8:37, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

> I do agree that accept works better than welcome here.

There's a practical issue in that: we have the WLBLEval plugin that has
cemented the initial.

FWIW, the use of "blocklist" in spamfighting goes back to the '90s, when
the primary resistance to "blacklist" was by people who were
uncomfortable with its McCarthyist connotation.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Why not concentrate on making Spamassassin a better filter instead of
worrying about offending anyone.

Have a look at DSPAM. It's much better than Spamassassin's probabilistic
Bayes filter, but DSPAM's weakness is in its inability to whitelist.

On 7/10/2020 2:27 PM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 3:38, Olivier wrote:

> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue,

No one has suggested that it will or can.

> for a
> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including
> some
> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by
> someone
> who is not working there anymore) and that is
> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to
> upgrade.

As Kevin has explained here and as is explained in the ticket he
referenced, compatibility with existing terminology will be retained
through the 4.0.x release versions.

> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead
> to
> the death of SA.

I invite you to look at the handling of SA over the past decade by major
Linux distributions. I do not think that we have anything to worry about
in this domain of possible problems.


--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 05:16:15, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 10:36 +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>> On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
>>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
>> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
>> While people working with these terms know them, others may not so
>> well.
>>
> Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
> more meaningful pair of terms.
>
> Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
> server rather than slave and master. While I see no need to use 'slave'
> term outside its historic and ongoing human designation, I do see a
> continuing use for 'master', where it describes a unique object that is
> frequently replicated of a person with extensive understanding of a body
> of knowledge, e.g. master (of a sailing ship), master craftsman, or a
> qualification: MSc, MA, etc.
>
> Martin

How do you design a servo system without a master/slave concept?
{o.o}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Um, you are a little information deprived. There are several videos out there of
BLM organizers stating how proud they are of being well trained Marxist
agitators. Ditto for Antifa and similar organizations. Wake up and smell the
manure lest you find yourself swimming in it.

And if you REALLY want a hair raising read dig around for a copy of William
Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." Then tell me there is no
resemblance at all between that and current events.

This is an attempt to control how you think by erasing useful and accurate
vocabulary. (It also ignores the detail that the "Owner/Slave" relationship
between human beings exists today and is fully legal in some countries
(Mauritania) and illegal but not prosecuted in others (Saudi Arabia and others).
BLM is closer to Black Lives Mangled as I see it.)

{^_^}

On 20200710 10:11:41, Axb wrote:
> Not sure if this is sarcasm or not... but just in case:
> Whoever may be the Marxist/Socialists, the're definitely not in the US...
> Assuming you never lived under such a government you're just talking thru your hat.
>
> and now lets put this offtopic blah to rest.
>
>
>
> On 7/10/20 7:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Amen!
>>
>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist) takeover. They
>> don't care if you use the terms whitelist or blacklist, this is a revolution.
>>
>> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being dispossessed of
>> your house and belongings under the supervision of the state, already going on
>> as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>>
>> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a grip) don't
>> know that after the reorganization is done, their heads will be on the
>> chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>>
>> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/2020 8:14 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>>> ..., but "Newspeak" is not the solution.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 11:31:57, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 3:06, Rupert Gallagher wrote:
>
>> Whatever you do under the hood, make sure it does not affect external behaviour.
>>
>> On your motivation, bear in mind that *lists here contain computer addresses,
>> not people,
>
> Which is an argument FOR changing our terminology.
>
>> so the reference you are trying to fix is mistaken, and changes will be
>> painstaking for no reason at all.
>
> That misses the actual rationale for the change.
>
> There's a semantic collision in English where "Black" and "White" are used both
> to classify people and to denote moral and/or desirability dichotomies. That
> semantic collision can be removed from our code, while improving the clarity of
> our naming.
>
> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk of
> mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it is
> entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
> contributors to the project. Continuing to use 'black' and 'white' as indicators
> of value in code and configuration directives leaves in place a minor nuisance
> for some potential contributors and users who are understandably tired of being
> on the bad side of this semantic collision, where the most common word for their
> ethnic identity is constantly being used as a label for things which are bad,
> undesirable, malfeasant, etc. The naming collision is a problem and because the
> inanimate entities for which we use black and white do not in fact have any
> color we can both eliminate the collision AND improve the quality of the names
> we use.
>
>
>> And the terms master and slave have nothing to do with white and black, and
>> again they refer to machine processes, not people.
>
> This is actually almost irrelevant for SA. The main use of the master/slave
> metaphor is in the automation backend for rule QA (e.g. build/jenkins/run_build)
> where it merits changing simply because it is no longer consistent with the
> terminology used by Jenkins. In spamd, parent/child is already the terminology
> and fits the actual code better.

I am still trying to figure out the rationale for forcing everybody out there
with established lists of "whitelist_from_rcvd" and "blacklist_from_rcvd" to go
out there and edit EVERYBODY's user_prefs or explain to users they must do this
themselves. *I* can do this easily enough and call them foolist_from_rcvd and
barlist_from_rcvd if needed. I am thinking if people with setups in small
business offices that have to invade privacy or explain how so that user_prefs
can be changed. And how about all the ancillary scripts that train spam that
also have to be changed?

This is something that is not broken, currently works, that some dolt is trying
to fix. It's better you call that person a dolt than try to change the world and
break everything. Making this change is dumb. It is counter-productive. It is
even destructive. Just Say No.

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 11:52:11, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> * Eric Broch:
>
>> As stated earlier by another very aware poster, this is nothing less
>> than, "Newspeak."
>
> That was actually me, in message <87lfjr78zu.fsf@wedjat.horus-it.com>.
> However, you did not quote the first part of the sentence, which I
> consider just as important:
>
>>> Racists are assholes, but "Newspeak" is not the solution.
>
> Looking at the content of your website, I don't want to be associated
> with your world views in general. We just seem to share a dislike for
> Newspeak.
>
> -Ralph

Ralph, you are free to avoid Eric. You are NOT free to try to force your world
view on the world. And that is exactly what these mental, ethical, and moral
failures are trying to do.

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, shanew@shanew.net wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>>> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>>> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
>>> of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it
>>> is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
>>> contributors to the project. C
>>
>> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project have
>> supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the rest of the
>> world.
>> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.
>
> The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
> that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
> explanations for why what you see is not representative of the whole.
>
> Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment.

> Maybe a lot of people
> on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
> that's about SpamAssassin.

For me, this. But I do now feel I should contribute my 5¢ to the noise.

As a PMC member I did vote on the proposal when it came up a week or so
back. I voted +1 with the strong condition that it include full backwards
compatibility for a long time (ideally permanently), but that vote was
reluctant.

I share the opinion that such terminology changes are "political
correctness through newspeak" because the current terms are widely-known
terms having a long standing without racist denotations or even
connotations, and that those who are offended by them on that basis are
the type of people who look for excuses to be offended. But my thought was
if we can avoid that nonsense *without* greatly disturbing the project, we
should probably do it.

But there is no technical reason whatsoever to make this change, and there
are good technical reasons not to. I agree with Joanna 100%:

> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it
> things break.

and

> Fixing what works is as fine a way to introduce new faults in
> the code as I can think of.

I am rethinking my +1 vote for this change.


--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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prevent a very bad day for Earthlings, NASA won’t be riding to the
rescue. These days, NASA does dodgy weather research and outreach
programs, not stuff in actual space with rockets piloted by
flinty-eyed men called Buzz. -- Daily Bayonet
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:

> And if you REALLY want a hair raising read dig around for a copy of William
> Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." Then tell me there is no
> resemblance at all between that and current events.

I *so* do not want to read that book again...


--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the rock of doom requires a gentle nudge away from Gaia to
prevent a very bad day for Earthlings, NASA won’t be riding to the
rescue. These days, NASA does dodgy weather research and outreach
programs, not stuff in actual space with rockets piloted by
flinty-eyed men called Buzz. -- Daily Bayonet
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
What I am seeing here, if I choose to think on their terms, is a small
collection of males asserting dominance by lifting their legs and demanding we
accept their peeing on a working product. If It Is Not Broke Don't Fix It. This
is the experience of a 76 year life span giving you advice. I've seen managers
pee on projects this way and destroy companies. I hated it then. I hate it now.
And you are triggering me horridly.

{+,+} I stick my tongue out in your general direction.

On 20200710 12:29:42, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 01:38, Olivier <Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th> wrote:
>> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue, for a
>> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
>> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
>> who is not working there anymore) and that is
>> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
>> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.
>
> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>
>> And if SA is not upgraded, the user base will shrink and it may lead to
>> the death of SA.
>
> If it cannot function without being offensive to many people, then so be it.
>
> Allow/deny I think are better than welcome/block, but I don't care.
>
> Allow/block might be better too.
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
No one has answered my question. What about the the word "Apache"?  Are
their 'redlist[s]' out there who'll be offended by this name?

For all the talk about giving SA more appropriate and descriptive names
the motivation for changing them (whitelist, blacklist) was ultimately
to be politically correct. Am I wrong?

Admit it, the SA community was never racist to begin with. It was some
white guys trying to improve life for everyone. That's noble and
commendable. This has been my goal in IT as well. Now is not the time to
grovel to whiners, it's time to man up and continue to improve your product.

I'd like to see SA have as good a probability filter as DSPAM but with
the ability to whitelist, which DSPAM does not have.


On 7/10/2020 3:25 PM, John Hardin wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, shanew@shanew.net wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>>>>  The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>>>>  contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always
>>>> at risk
>>>>  of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in
>>>> fact it
>>>>  is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the
>>>> existing
>>>>  contributors to the project. C
>>>
>>> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project
>>> have supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the
>>> rest of the world.
>>> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.
>>
>> The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
>> that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
>> explanations for why what you see is not representative of the whole.
>>
>> Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment.
>
>> Maybe a lot of people
>> on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
>> that's about SpamAssassin.
>
> For me, this. But I do now feel I should contribute my 5¢ to the noise.
>
> As a PMC member I did vote on the proposal when it came up a week or
> so back. I voted +1 with the strong condition that it include full
> backwards compatibility for a long time (ideally permanently), but
> that vote was reluctant.
>
> I share the opinion that such terminology changes are "political
> correctness through newspeak" because the current terms are
> widely-known terms having a long standing without racist denotations
> or even connotations, and that those who are offended by them on that
> basis are the type of people who look for excuses to be offended. But
> my thought was if we can avoid that nonsense *without* greatly
> disturbing the project, we should probably do it.
>
> But there is no technical reason whatsoever to make this change, and
> there are good technical reasons not to. I agree with Joanna 100%:
>
>> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
>> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it
>> things break.
>
> and
>
>> Fixing what works is as fine a way to introduce new faults in
>> the code as I can think of.
>
> I am rethinking my +1 vote for this change.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 12:34:03, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 02:06, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> wrote:
>> thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
>> way…
>
> Yes, guy/s is gender neutral, but many women do not agree.

Far more use it themselves. You males have lost control of the term to generic
usage. Sorry. If that triggers you so be it.

{^_-}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 12:34:03, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 02:06, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> wrote:
>> thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
>> way…
>
> Yes, guy/s is gender neutral, but many women do not agree.

Far more use it themselves. You males have lost control of the term to generic
usage. Sorry. If that triggers you so be it.

{^_-}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
In other words "I am going to pee on the product and if you don't like it go
pound sand."

Well, I am pounding sand in your general direction, loudly.

{^_^}

On 20200710 13:21:41, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:
>
>> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>>
>> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ... more of a
>> matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than actually doing anything
>> practical to 'fix' it.
>
> Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real Problem" that
> we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of our developer community.
> Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting for even a minority of a
> minority of possible contributors is worthwhile, particularly when the
> block/welcome terminology we are replacing black/white with is explicitly
> descriptive rather than metaphorical and connotative.
>
> We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA because of
> terminology or whether any of those people might have otherwise become involved
> enough in the project to be contributors. If changing the terminology makes the
> Project look less like a bunch of white guys trying to make rules for the
> world's email, that's a positive step.
>
>> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1 cars black.
>
> This is a bit less symbolic. We're actually making the terminology better.
>
>> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...
>
> The intent is to do what we can to make involvement in the SpamAssassin
> community less hostile to newcomers, even if elements of hostility that we can
> address are not universally recognized as such. We cannot do much for the bigger
> Real Problems that intersect with ours tangentially, because unlike
> Daimler-Benz, we don't have $100 Million or even $1 to spend. None of us has the
> time and skills to make a focused recruiting effort to get a more diverse set of
> contributors or even just more contributors. Changing a few labels in the code
> is something we CAN do.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten. Every
user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of hurt on innocent
people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on something to mark it as
YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
{^_^}

On 20200710 13:27:45, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 13:43:21, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 8:37, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
>
>>       I do agree that accept works better than welcome here.
>
> There's a practical issue in that: we have the WLBLEval plugin that has cemented
> the initial.
>
> FWIW, the use of "blocklist" in spamfighting goes back to the '90s, when the
> primary resistance to "blacklist" was by people who were uncomfortable with its
> McCarthyist connotation.

Well, Bill, it was stupid then. What makes it not stupid today? The exact same
logic applies, doesn't it?

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 13:58:32, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 3:38, Olivier wrote:
>
>> Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>>
>> While thet change in names will not fix any societal issue,
>
> No one has suggested that it will or can.
>
>> for a
>> product like SpamAssassin that relies heavily on plugins (including some
>> plugins that may have been developped locally, long time ago, by someone
>> who is not working there anymore) and that is
>> also embeded (like in amavis) these sort of changes may break a lot of
>> implementations, to the point that people will be reluctant to upgrade.
>
> As Kevin has explained here and as is explained in the ticket he referenced,
> compatibility with existing terminology will be retained through the 4.0.x
> release versions.

And that added complexity is just more places for it to break. Very very ancient
wisdom runs, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." That includes fixing things for
a faulty definition of "broke".

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I can just see the vocabulary Nazis forcing the world to change out red lights
and yellow lights for more inoffensively named colors as they go out and rip
down these statues to hierarchical control systems. These word Nazis CANNOT be
appeased with simple changes in terminology. Their goal is to simply see the
world burn so they can step in and take control. They are so ignorant of history
they do not realize they are among the first for the gulags and firing squads
they believe they will be running.

{+_+}

On 20200710 14:57:33, Eric Broch wrote:
> No one has answered my question. What about the the word "Apache"?  Are their
> 'redlist[s]' out there who'll be offended by this name?
>
> For all the talk about giving SA more appropriate and descriptive names the
> motivation for changing them (whitelist, blacklist) was ultimately to be
> politically correct. Am I wrong?
>
> Admit it, the SA community was never racist to begin with. It was some white
> guys trying to improve life for everyone. That's noble and commendable. This has
> been my goal in IT as well. Now is not the time to grovel to whiners, it's time
> to man up and continue to improve your product.
>
> I'd like to see SA have as good a probability filter as DSPAM but with the
> ability to whitelist, which DSPAM does not have.
>
>
> On 7/10/2020 3:25 PM, John Hardin wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, shanew@shanew.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>>>>>  The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>>>>>  contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
>>>>>  of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it
>>>>>  is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
>>>>>  contributors to the project. C
>>>>
>>>> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project have
>>>> supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the rest of the
>>>> world.
>>>> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.
>>>
>>> The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
>>> that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
>>> explanations for why what you see is not representative of the whole.
>>>
>>> Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment.
>>
>>> Maybe a lot of people
>>> on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
>>> that's about SpamAssassin.
>>
>> For me, this. But I do now feel I should contribute my 5¢ to the noise.
>>
>> As a PMC member I did vote on the proposal when it came up a week or so back.
>> I voted +1 with the strong condition that it include full backwards
>> compatibility for a long time (ideally permanently), but that vote was reluctant.
>>
>> I share the opinion that such terminology changes are "political correctness
>> through newspeak" because the current terms are widely-known terms having a
>> long standing without racist denotations or even connotations, and that those
>> who are offended by them on that basis are the type of people who look for
>> excuses to be offended. But my thought was if we can avoid that nonsense
>> *without* greatly disturbing the project, we should probably do it.
>>
>> But there is no technical reason whatsoever to make this change, and there are
>> good technical reasons not to. I agree with Joanna 100%:
>>
>>> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of communications
>>> is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it
>>> things break.
>>
>> and
>>
>>> Fixing what works is as fine a way to introduce new faults in
>>> the code as I can think of.
>>
>> I am rethinking my +1 vote for this change.
>>
>>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:

> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten. Every
> user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of hurt on
> innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on something to mark
> it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
> {^_^}

The intent is to be fully backwards-compatible, so it's (hopefully) *not*
going to be that bad.


>
> On 20200710 13:27:45, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>
>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>> April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> KAM
>>
>

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in 1969 the technology to fake a Moon landing didn't exist,
but the technology to actually land there did.
Today, it is the opposite. -- unknown
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
What makes you think anyone on the list wants to hear your complaints and your snide crypto-fascism?

Take it private or open an issue in the bug tracker.

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 6:01 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten. Every user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of hurt on innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on something to mark it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
> {^_^}
>
> On 20200710 13:27:45, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>> Regards,
>> KAM
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 15:01 -0700, jdow wrote:
> On 20200710 13:43:21, Bill Cole wrote:
> > On 10 Jul 2020, at 8:37, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> >
> > > I do agree that accept works better than welcome here.
> >
> > There's a practical issue in that: we have the WLBLEval plugin that
> > has cemented
> > the initial.
> >
> > FWIW, the use of "blocklist" in spamfighting goes back to the '90s,
> > when the
> > primary resistance to "blacklist" was by people who were
> > uncomfortable with its
> > McCarthyist connotation.
>
> Well, Bill, it was stupid then. What makes it not stupid today? The
> exact same
> logic applies, doesn't it?
>
And the term 'blacklist' goes back a long way: first documented use was
in 1639. Next l=use seems to have been Charles II of England, in 1660,
when he constructed a 'black list' of people he intended to punish for
killing his father, Charles I so any connection with skin colour seems
to be entirely irrelevant since in that era it would be referring to the
black souls of the regicides.

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
1) You would not know fascism if it jumped up and bit your nose off.
2) You try to force your nonsense on me and I'll force my nonsense on you. Square?

{^_^}

On 20200710 15:26:49, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> What makes you think anyone on the list wants to hear your complaints and your snide crypto-fascism?
>
> Take it private or open an issue in the bug tracker.
>
>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 6:01 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten. Every user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of hurt on innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on something to mark it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
>> {^_^}
>>
>> On 20200710 13:27:45, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Stop biting my nose.

I’m not forcing anything, I just suggested you take your nonsense off-list somewhere.

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 7:47 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> 1) You would not know fascism if it jumped up and bit your nose off.
> 2) You try to force your nonsense on me and I'll force my nonsense on you. Square?
>
> {^_^}
>
> On 20200710 15:26:49, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>> What makes you think anyone on the list wants to hear your complaints and your snide crypto-fascism?
>> Take it private or open an issue in the bug tracker.
>>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 6:01 PM, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten. Every user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of hurt on innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on something to mark it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
>>> {^_^}
>>>
>>> On 20200710 13:27:45, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> Hello all,
>>>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>>>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>>>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>>>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>>>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>>>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>>>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> KAM
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I am having a hard time reconciling the statements below.

On 10 Jul 2020, at 13:21, Bill Cole wrote:
> We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
> because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
> otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors.
> [?]

> [?] We cannot do much for the bigger Real Problems that intersect
> with ours tangentially, [?] Changing a few labels in the code is
> something we CAN do.

If ASF or the SA Project does not know "how many people have thought
less of SA" – and I venture to say, doesn't know if _any_ people has
– then deciding to engage in an activity that by your own admission
does nothing for the "real problems" just because you can, makes little
sense.

This effort is simply wasting resources – and judging from recent
events, breaking code – to gain what? To claim that ASF or the SA
Project are somewhat sensitive because they changed a term that has been
in use for 20+ years, but still has no non-whites or women or whatever
the demographic de jure is in the board?

I lived in a country where we allowed politics to interfere with
technology. Things did not end well for either.

Best regards

-lem
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:

> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam.
> Oh noes.

I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by
the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've
never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?

-lem
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 2020-07-10 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>
> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by
> the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've
> never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>

What black people are asking for is to not be murdered. The idea to
change the word "blacklist" to "blocklist" instead as a consolation
prize comes solely from rich white folks, and is itself condescending
and offensive.

As with "all lives matter," it's possible to have the best of intentions
yet still come across as a patronizing douchebag.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Who is "we"

Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
just because theirs is fucked up?

I want names

I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.

I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
contributors to the project think

I await your silence

On 11/07/2020 06:27, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Read Red Scare hours on the timeline tonight...

> On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:35 PM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:
>
> Who is "we"
>
> Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries just because theirs is fucked up?
>
> I want names
>
> I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
>
> I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and contributors to the project think
>
>
>
> I await your silence
>
>
>
> On 11/07/2020 06:27, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>
>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> KAM
>>
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
>
> Noel Butler
>
> This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright protected under international law. You may not disseminate any part of this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete all copies of this message including attachments immediately. Confidentiality, copyright, and legal privilege are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery of this message.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
huh? I dont see that subject in the thread, I guess thats what you mean,
I dunno, you're not talking to an american

On 11/07/2020 12:38, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Read Red Scare hours on the timeline tonight...
>
> On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:35 PM, Noel Butler <noel.butler@ausics.net> wrote:
>
> Who is "we"
>
> Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries just because theirs is fucked up?
>
> I want names
>
> I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
>
> I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and contributors to the project think
>
> I await your silence
>
> On 11/07/2020 06:27, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
>
> Noel Butler
>
> This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright protected under international law. You may not disseminate any part of this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete all copies of this message including attachments immediately. Confidentiality, copyright, and legal privilege are not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery of this message.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright
protected under international law. You may not disseminate any part of
this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete
all copies of this message including attachments immediately.
Confidentiality, copyright, and legal privilege are not waived or lost
by reason of the mistaken delivery of this message.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I voted aginst it, loudly.


On 7/11/20 4:35 AM, Noel Butler wrote:
> Who is "we"
>
> Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
> and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
> just because theirs is fucked up?
>
> I want names
>
> I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
> who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
>
> I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
> contributors to the project think
>
> I await your silence
>
> On 11/07/2020 06:27, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
>> instead, for example allow/deny.
>>
>> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
>> April and work done creating patches. We found that using these names
>> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
>> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
>> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
>> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> KAM
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
shanew@shanew.net writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, Axb wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/20 8:31 PM, Bill Cole wrote:
>>> The SpamAssassin Project has a particular self-interest in attracting
>>> contributors from a diversity of cultures, because we are always at risk
>>> of mislabelling a pattern of letters or words as 'spammy' when in fact it
>>> is entirely normal in a cultural context other than those of the existing
>>> contributors to the project. C
>>
>> From what I see, until now, only two ppl of the SpamAssasin project
>> have supported this motion and intend to impose this quatsch to the
>> rest of the world.
>> Voices against these changes have been politely ignored.
>
> The danger of judging the world only by what is within your sight is
> that your field of vision is limited, and there are any number of
> explanations for why what you see is not representative of the
> whole.

Maybe giving in to a very small but very loud and aggressive minority
is even worse.


> Maybe those who agree feel no need to comment. Maybe a lot of people
> on either side of the issue want to avoid adding more noise to a list
> that's about SpamAssassin. Maybe a lot of people recognized this
> wasn't a "motion" or a request for comment at all, but rather notice
> of a change to code. Or, as you yourself mention, maybe a lot of
> people are just politely ignoring the negative voices.

You are doing here what you accuse the people you do not agree with.
Are you a democrat. ;-)

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Bill Cole" <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> writes:

> On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:
>
>> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>>
>> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ...
>> more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than
>> actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.
>
> Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real
> Problem" that we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of
> our developer community. Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting
> for even a minority of a minority of possible contributors is
> worthwhile, particularly when the block/welcome terminology we are
> replacing black/white with is explicitly descriptive rather than
> metaphorical and connotative.
>
> We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
> because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
> otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors. If
> changing the terminology makes the Project look less like a bunch of
> white guys trying to make rules for the world's email, that's a positive
> step.

That makes no sense at all. It increases the feeling that you want to
appease a little but loudly minority. And probably want to get a warm
cosy feeling inside.

By the way: should the name of the project not be changed also?
Assassin can be very offensive to certain people. This can be changed
without dire consequences.

Black Lives Matter.
White Lives Don't Matter.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8460059/Cambridge-University-backs-academic-tweeted-White-Lives-Dont-Matter.html

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> A common question we are receiving is what about using this terminology
> instead, for example allow/deny.
>
> The use of welcomelist and blocklist has evolved from discussions since
> April and work done creating patches.  We found that using these names
> of welcomelist and blocklist are non offensive, reasonably descriptive
> and since they still start with W and B, we avoid renaming things like
> RBLs, WLBL, DNSBL, etc. This should help minimize the disruption when
> 4.0 is released with the new configuration options.

Yes, reasonable descriptive. While the original is very clear. So in
my opinion a very stupid move.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org> writes:

> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:
>
>> And every ancillary script sysadmins have written has to be rewritten.
>> Every user_prefs has to be rewritten. You are forcing a boatload of
>> hurt on innocent people. This is purely lifting a leg and peeing on
>> something to mark it as YOURS. Isn't that rather selfish?
>> {^_^}
>
> The intent is to be fully backwards-compatible, so it's (hopefully)
> *not* going to be that bad.

The word hopefully makes me feel very secure.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:

> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>
>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam.
>> Oh noes.
>
> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended
> by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and
> I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?

"Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has
been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet
Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent
extended rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the
suggestion that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change
and the blowback from that.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 10 Jul 2020, at 23:51, Bill Cole wrote:

> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue
> has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts,
> as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little
> things.

Reminds me of left-handed people back when I grew up. In my time
children would use chairs with integrated tables that would be fit for
_either_ right- or left-handed people. Since there were more
right-handed children, left-handed people would have to be more creative
to adapt.

So far we know:

* Terms such as blacklist are a minor annoyance
* There's no evidence of "how many people have thought less of SA"
because of the use of the term "blacklist"
* The change has a very non-zero impact _everywhere_ the software is
deployed, as explained by other contributors to this ML

> If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent
> extended rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the
> suggestion that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change
> and the blowback from that.

Sure, are you talking about this?

https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279945071371128834 – "The only
person on that list who looks anything like me is the head of infosec at
Fb"

In here she posts a poll asking whether you would apply to be part of a
board composing by people that don't look like you
– https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279948068411052045

I can't answer for everybody of course, but I would not care how the
current members of a group I wanted to join look. I have been part of
many groups that contained people that did not look like me
– professional and otherwise. Up to that point in the thread, it
seems to me as someone looking for excuses. If I missed something,
please point me to it.

If I continue to look at her tweets, I find examples such as this:
https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1281735488437727233 – she seems
surprised that someone would want to choose compatible people to work
with. I don't know her or the context, and it is not my place to pass
judgement, but I sincerely hope that whomever is in charge has better
justification for this change than this lady's tweet rant.

I do not know the rules under which ASF and SAP operate, but this thread
is evidence that the position you are defending is far from widely
shared, and to me, looks very poorly justified.

Future software? Sure. Get rid of anything remotely offensive _the next
time around_. Start by not using Assassin in the name, Apache in your
organization and not mentioning any colors or university degrees. For
existing, deployed, critical code? Don't change things to win cookie
points.

Best regards

-lem
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 17:02:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>
>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely
>> offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>
> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use
> of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually
> seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> -lem

More importantly do they really matter? If they cannot take the discomfort off a
word that they have translated into a false meaning I'd suggest they grow up and
join the real world. Diverting resources from constructive use to a use that
will introduce more points of failure in a working product for no tangible
reward is counter productive.

(And over the years I've grown annoyed at the number of tools I built around
spamassassin must be reinvented with updates. I finally gave up trying to keep
auditing tools running. My favorite development hook from 2.x days vanished in
3.x making diagnosing rule malfunctions messier. What will this NEW nonsense
bring for my endless entertainment?)

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200710 23:51:19, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the
>> use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never
>> actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been
> raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another
> Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things. If you want a
> direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent extended rant on Twitter by
> Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the suggestion that the Black Hat
> conference was considering a name change and the blowback from that.

When they get upset at words like blacklist I sit bemused if they bothered to
sit back and learn the origination of the N-word. They are calling themselves
black after deploring being called black. So the goal does not seem to be
changing "blacklist". It is simply disruption. If it breaks something, who
cares? Well, I care and don't want to have to fix the carnage from their
(temporary) appeasement. This is particularly true since from here I cannot see
the color of anybody's skin but my own. All I can see is accomplishments. That
is what matters. And declaring that is racist is also declaring that you think
some particular race needs special regard, making you a racist. It's a tricky
word you cannot deploy without revealing it in yourself.

SA is free software. So I get exactly what I pay for, and usually a heck of a
lot more. I'd hate to see it broken. That would break my regard for the
development team, which has taken a couple heavy hits over the years but still
remains relatively high. If having the high regard of users matters let it be
known that another big dose of pain keeping it running will simply move me away.
And there are tools which eventually would break even if foolist and barlist are
synonyms with the latter created due to the former's bad connotations, which are
not bad at all. Eventually foolist goes away or breaks and I have to diagnose
the nonsense. And I am getting too old to bother with nonsense when email
providers have filters I can suffer with or I can simply use something that
works and never upgrade. Either way it would be a loss of one egoboost point to
the developers for whatever that is worth. Bitter experience suggests changes
with no good technical reason for them are dangerous.

{O.O}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200711 00:40:20, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 23:51, Bill Cole wrote:
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has
> been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet
> Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
>
> Reminds me of left-handed people back when I grew up. In my time children would
> use chairs with integrated tables that would be fit for /either/ right- or
> left-handed people. Since there were more right-handed children, left-handed
> people would have to be more creative to adapt.
>
> So far we know:
>
> * Terms such as blacklist are a minor annoyance
> * There's no evidence of "how many people have thought less of SA" because of
> the use of the term "blacklist"
> * The change has a very non-zero impact /everywhere/ the software is deployed,
> as explained by other contributors to this ML
>
> If you want a direct first-hand explication, hunt down the recent extended
> rant on Twitter by Jackie Singh (@find_evil) triggered by the suggestion
> that the Black Hat conference was considering a name change and the blowback
> from that.
>
> Sure, are you talking about this?
>
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279945071371128834 – "The only person on
> that list who looks anything like me is the head of infosec at Fb"
>
> In here she posts a poll asking whether you would apply to be part of a board
> composing by people that don't look like you –
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1279948068411052045
>
> I can't answer for everybody of course, but I would not care how the current
> members of a group I wanted to join look. I have been part of many groups that
> contained people that did not look like me – professional and otherwise. Up to
> that point in the thread, it seems to me as someone looking for excuses. If I
> missed something, please point me to it.
>
> If I continue to look at her tweets, I find examples such as this:
> https://twitter.com/find_evil/status/1281735488437727233 – she seems surprised
> that someone would want to choose compatible people to work with. I don't know
> her or the context, and it is not my place to pass judgement, but I sincerely
> hope that whomever is in charge has better justification for this change than
> this lady's tweet rant.
>
> I do not know the rules under which ASF and SAP operate, but this thread is
> evidence that the position you are defending is far from widely shared, and to
> me, looks very poorly justified.
>
> Future software? Sure. Get rid of anything remotely offensive /the next time
> around/. Start by not using Assassin in the name, Apache in your organization
> and not mentioning any colors or university degrees. For existing, deployed,
> critical code? Don't change things to win cookie points.
>
> Best regards
>
> -lem
>

Female and an RF engineer. Look up what it took for that through 2000. I took up
SW as a sideline hobby that bloomed on its own. And I was pretty unique among
the people writing video software such as used in broadcast production
facilities. "Adapt". Learn to dish it out as well as take it. I watched young
men doing that so I did it. It worked. I am not averse to what works.

Looks like me? Maybe one or two out of a 100 or more who were not secretaries. I
learned to bare my teeth at the mere suggestion that I go get the group some
coffee. I learned to look VERY scary. It worked and engendered some humor.
That's how I (over)learned to be assertive. I do not demand 50% of my peers be
women. I simply demand that 100% of my peers carry their load. For THAT I am a
racist fascist.

Screwit do what you will folks. It just hurts to see people take careful aim at
their foot and shoot.

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Concentrating on the technical issues below ...

I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread, myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.

That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for diversity of any kind].

For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat' towards diversity.


Judy.

________________________________
From: Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com>
Sent: 10 July 2020 21:21
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org <users@spamassassin.apache.org>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

On 10 Jul 2020, at 5:12, hospice admin wrote:

> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>
> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ...
> more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than
> actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.

Well, in the context of the Apache SpamAssassin Project, "The Real
Problem" that we have any capacity to work on is the low diversity of
our developer community. Eliminating terminology that may be off-putting
for even a minority of a minority of possible contributors is
worthwhile, particularly when the block/welcome terminology we are
replacing black/white with is explicitly descriptive rather than
metaphorical and connotative.

We have no way of knowing how many people have thought less of SA
because of terminology or whether any of those people might have
otherwise become involved enough in the project to be contributors. If
changing the terminology makes the Project look less like a bunch of
white guys trying to make rules for the world's email, that's a positive
step.

> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1
> cars black.

This is a bit less symbolic. We're actually making the terminology
better.

> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...

The intent is to do what we can to make involvement in the SpamAssassin
community less hostile to newcomers, even if elements of hostility that
we can address are not universally recognized as such. We cannot do much
for the bigger Real Problems that intersect with ours tangentially,
because unlike Daimler-Benz, we don't have $100 Million or even $1 to
spend. None of us has the time and skills to make a focused recruiting
effort to get a more diverse set of contributors or even just more
contributors. Changing a few labels in the code is something we CAN do.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:

> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>
> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>
> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
> diversity of any kind].
>
> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
> towards diversity.

Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.

Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
"insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.

I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
to solve it.

For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
is no real problem.


Antony.

--
I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way
is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_
deficiencies.

- C A R Hoare

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/11/20 1:32 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:
>
>> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>>
>> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
>> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>>
>> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
>> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
>> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
>> diversity of any kind].
>>
>> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
>> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
>> towards diversity.
>
> Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
> when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.
>
> Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
> "insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
> police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.
>
> I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
> is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
> to solve it.
>
> For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
> master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
> therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
> industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
> is no real problem.

Amen to that!
And the ppl pushing these changes now obviously won't step back because
they'd loose their face.

I don't wish them the best. They will be causing a huge amount of ppl a
truckload of grief and unnecessary work.

Axb
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
LOL!!!

On 7/11/2020 2:24 AM, jdow wrote:
>
>
> On 20200710 17:02:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are
>>> extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam.
>>> Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended
>> by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and
>> I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>>
>> -lem
>
> More importantly do they really matter? If they cannot take the
> discomfort off a word that they have translated into a false meaning
> I'd suggest they grow up and join the real world. Diverting resources
> from constructive use to a use that will introduce more points of
> failure in a working product for no tangible reward is counter
> productive.
>
> (And over the years I've grown annoyed at the number of tools I built
> around spamassassin must be reinvented with updates. I finally gave up
> trying to keep auditing tools running. My favorite development hook
> from 2.x days vanished in 3.x making diagnosing rule malfunctions
> messier. What will this NEW nonsense bring for my endless entertainment?)
>
> {^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
'Rules for Radicals').

One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they
are intent on destroying anything civilized.


On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
> ..., they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Friday 10 July 2020 at 14:37:09, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

> How long until we have to rename electrical and mechanical
> connectors?

Shortly after the astrophysicists have found an inoffensive term for black
holes, various military agencies have stopped running black ops, all the
various meanings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_friday have been
changed, and my poodle has been re-defined as "extreme dark grey".

I'd also just like to remind people:

On Friday 10 July 2020 at 10:30:51, Dan Malm wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
> The term has nothing to do with race.


Antony.

--
If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we'd be so simple that we couldn't.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 11 Jul 2020, jdow wrote:

> I do not demand 50% of my peers be women. I simply demand that 100% of
> my peers carry their load. For THAT I am a racist fascist.

Snarf!

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell is an "Aluminum Falcon"?? -- Emperor Palpatine
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
9 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 2020-07-11 at 06:32 -0600, Eric Broch wrote:
> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
> do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
> tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
> 'Rules for Radicals').
>
Maybe so, but one thing I know it that the people were not fooled by
their Warsaw Pact governments. They knew very well that what they got
was not what they were promised.

I was in Chechoslovakia when Solidarity was the name of the game on
Poland and the Berlin Wall hadn't yet fallen. We met a lot of young East
Germans who were holidaying there because it was the only country they
could get holiday visas for. The one thing we heard from these young
East Germans at some point in a conversation was a variation on "Of
course we know about Marx and his brand of Communism because we had to
study that in school. It sounds wonderful: we just wish we had it in our
country".

We knew then that something was about to change soon, so weren't
surprised when the Wall came down.

Anyway: that was realpolitik. Political correctness is not realpolitik,
even slightly. Its a pity George Orwell isn't around now.

> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because
> they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>
I don't think you have the faintest idea of what a radical is.

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Maybe Apache just need some more figures...
Is there any black lady/gentleman in this list who feels ofended for those terms? please rise you hand...
LET's VOTE...
Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to racism sensibilities?

|
|
|
| | |

|

|
|
| |
Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "Black...

Encuesta online sobre Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to...
|

|

|
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Nice authoritarianism you’ve got there.

> On Jul 11, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>
> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author: 'Rules for Radicals').
>
> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>
>
> On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
>> ..., they're just
>> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/11/2020 12:50 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-07-11 at 06:32 -0600, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers
>> do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist
>> tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author:
>> 'Rules for Radicals').
>>
> Maybe so, but one thing I know it that the people were not fooled by
> their Warsaw Pact governments. They knew very well that what they got
> was not what they were promised.
>
> I was in Chechoslovakia when Solidarity was the name of the game on
> Poland and the Berlin Wall hadn't yet fallen. We met a lot of young East
> Germans who were holidaying there because it was the only country they
> could get holiday visas for. The one thing we heard from these young
> East Germans at some point in a conversation was a variation on "Of
> course we know about Marx and his brand of Communism because we had to
> study that in school. It sounds wonderful: we just wish we had it in our
> country".
>
> We knew then that something was about to change soon, so weren't
> surprised when the Wall came down.
>
> Anyway: that was realpolitik. Political correctness is not realpolitik,
> even slightly. Its a pity George Orwell isn't around now.
>
>> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because
>> they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>>
> I don't think you have the faintest idea of what a radical is.
>
> Martin
>
Well, if we're going to discuss whether I know what I'm talking about
maybe I should ask whether there is a standard by which we can judge? Is
the standard simply the opinions of men, or is there a higher standard?
Obviously, I believe there is a higher standard and anyone who departs
from that standard in their thinking is a radical. There are varying
degrees of radicalism and varying boundaries among the radicals.

With SA I'm certain that the founders had NO evil motives when borrowing
and using the terms 'whitelist' and 'blacklist.' I assume that the
motive was to create and maintain software helpful to all men regardless
of race. Innocent of any evil intent they most likely didn't give it a
second thought. They are now being swayed into thinking that each one of
them had evil motives all along and that those evil motives have to do
with their whiteness. If this is not racism--a form of radicalism--I
don't know what is. The normal person looks at the words and assumes no
racial slur was intended since, again, the software is intended to help
all alike. The SA team now made aware of their "inherent racism" and
"white privilege" by these radicals will are now bent on placation while
no wrong was ever committed. How does one placate an irrational person,
a radical?  The only ones who try are irrational themselves. As is
obvious in the U.S. right now the radical is not concerned with truth,
justice, or reason, only control. Yes I can tell what a radical is by
comparing their deeds and speech to a higher standard, a moral standard,
if you will, a standard that does not change at whim.

Whether your young East German acquaintances knew it or not they were
under a form of Marxism in East Germany. The same is true in China
today. China is a form of Marxist ideology with minor variations. Of
course there will be differing degrees of oppression between Marxist's
nations making one preferable to another.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
There is a difference between having authority to punish crime and
authoritarianism. Do you believe lawlessness is a good thing?

On 7/11/2020 1:49 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Nice authoritarianism you’ve got there.
>
>> On Jul 11, 2020, at 8:32 AM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Obama was a community organizer, and that's what community organizers do. They stir up trouble where no trouble exists. This is a Marxist tactic to overturn a society in the school of Saul Alinsky (Author: 'Rules for Radicals').
>>
>> One does not concede ground to radicals one punishes them because they are intent on destroying anything civilized.
>>
>>
>> On 7/11/2020 5:32 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
>>> ..., they're just
>>> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble...
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>
>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>
>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>
> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.

Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over the last several years.

It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.


--
When the least they could do to you was everything, then the most
they could do to you suddenly held no terror. --Small Gods
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:04, @lbutlr <kremels@kreme.com> wrote:
> It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.

If there is anyone paying attention to the mailing list, can you please just kill this thread? It's not providing any useful content at this point and is just churning the same people posting about how terrible it is that they might, possibly but almost certainly really not, suffer the mildest of inconveniences in a small change to the package.

There's literally nothing to see here anymore, if there ever was past the initial post.

And some of you in this thread… wow.




--
I WILL NOT PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO BART Bart chalkboard Ep. 7F09
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Most every race has been enslaved at some point or other. They'd have
you believe that only whites were the enslave[ers] of blacks, It goes
with their evil narrative.

What, I am supposed to be offended because my ancestors in the past were
enslaved by Romans or even blacks?

Do they owe me reparations? Am I offended by these terms because
something happened to my ancestors and am I calling for their removal?

No, grow up!

On 7/11/2020 4:04 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2020, at 00:51, Bill Cole <sausers-20150205@billmail.scconsult.com> wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 20:02, Luis E. Muñoz wrote:
>>
>>> On 10 Jul 2020, at 12:29, @lbutlr wrote:
>>>
>>>> If people are so fragile that they have to hold on to terms that are extremely offensive to some of their peers, they will get more spam. Oh noes.
>>> I keep hearing about this mythical people that get terribly offended by the use of these words. I've been working in IT since the 90s, and I've never actually seen one in real life. Do they really exist?
>> "Terribly offended" is not what I've heard from anyone but the issue has been raised by Black colleagues a few times in multiple contexts, as Yet Another Minor Annoyance in a world stuffed full of such little things.
> Exactly. Although in other packages and usages the one that *has* caused terrible offense is master/slave. Many projects have been changing this over the last several years.
>
> It is astonishing, but not surprising, how angry people are over these changes though; it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> yeah - by quoting your own idiocy - wow

I did no t want to call out any particular posting or poster.

> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?

For the record, I know *many* people who are perfectly sane who find using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.

But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are unimportant.

This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your line.

The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.


--
I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not
by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that because
you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when they've done
nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.

Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial
connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.

As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there
existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white
slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from
black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an
agenda to bring down white culture.

It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and to
impute guilt where there is none.

Again, grow up.

On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?
>
> For the record, I know*many* people who are perfectly sane who find using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.
>
> But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.
>
> And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are unimportant.
>
> This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your line.
>
> The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.
>
>
> -- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov in '85 (Idealogical Subversion & Demoralization):

"...to change the perception of reality of every American [and most
Europeans] to such an extent that despite the abundance of information
no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of
defending themselves.. and their country."

"The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information,
with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures. Even if I take him,
by force, to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp, he will
refuse to believe it until he is going to receive a kick in his fat
bottom. When the military boot crashes his, then he will understand. But
not before that. That is the tragedy of this situation of demoralization."

On 7/11/2020 5:39 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not
> by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that
> because you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when
> they've done nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.
>
> Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial
> connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.
>
> As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there
> existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white
> slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from
> black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an
> agenda to bring down white culture.
>
> It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and
> to impute guilt where there is none.
>
> Again, grow up.
>
> On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
>> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on
>> anyone whose opinion differs from yours?
>>
>> For the record, I know*many*  people who are perfectly sane who find
>> using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply
>> offensive.
>>
>> But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.
>>
>> And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because
>> it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore
>> their feelings are unimportant.
>>
>> This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real
>> lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people
>> have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and
>> diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your
>> line.
>>
>> The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to
>> fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for
>> whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.
>>
>>
>> -- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Hi Yall,

I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to the
list.

Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and contribute
something useful.

First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change something
like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to do this and then,
years later, the mysql team wrote a better version. ...I wouldn't use their
database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres
was developed in the '90s - BUT, their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On
one of my boxes, it is provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch

I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did it
better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the util-linux
package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of many
distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch of file
names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day when my PATH
was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it either.

So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't have to be
that hard.

As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master / slave
weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those terms. In
my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do with slavery but
rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" & "master chef", or
command as in "ship's master," among a great many others nobody associates
with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer to the copies as replicants.
There are usually many good alternatives, we just have to be sensitive to
not unnecessarily use terms some might deem offensive. In my book "slave"
can be an unnecessary reminder of racial injustices, while at worst
"blacklist" evokes un-just job discrimination, and in any event, what
we're doing with a spam filter IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of
itself is NOT bad, only discrimination for un-just reasons. And
discriminating email based on who it came from is a perfectly valid reason
to discriminate. As jdow said, discrimination on the basis of a positive
or negative contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of
appearance isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might
discriminate on.

I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not broken (and
most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad for the project, not
good. (If you want to do something truly helpful about it, see my
recommendation below.)

Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world around
the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about background: My first
job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote (solo) the operating system
for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor back in the very late '70s and very
early '80s (real-time, general purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and
a CPU / hardware cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced
stuff for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been
employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and worked on
more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of experience in this
field.

When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the
idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by
humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every
language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe
desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is just
an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This usage
likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding of the
world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and there's a
natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone wants a
readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the copious works
of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with Bill Moyers
entitled "The Masks of God" - even better the book series of the same name
that goes back some 30,000 years - worth reading no matter your motive.)
EVERY CULTURE across the globe and throughout time can be easily shown to
use these same metaphors for good and bad, desirable and undesirable. And
I'm sorry but this really is an idiotic change to make to working code -
not that I have a vote.

Now, I can understand not wanting to offend the ignorant people who don't
understand. To my mind the answer is to inform them via a simple web link
to a source that can explain this to those concerned. This would be 1)
doing something about some of the pain of racism some may feel; 2) easy to
implement; 3) educational, and; 4) not consuming resources needlessly and
not adding the risk of new bugs. Why NOT do this instead?! Remember,
everybody's ignorant, just about different things is all! So, fine, we
just help teach them! ...If you feel you have to do something about this
particular problem, I would guess it's because you yourself feel guilty
for not doing anything about racism before - or not enough. This proposed
change to the code is a very poor choice of how to respond.

Now, after being annoyed at the knee-jerk over-reaction, I read ALL of the
comments and was both amused and saddened by what I found in the comments.
... Some people here I've come to REALLY like, and well, there just had to
be a RWNJ in the crowd, now didn't there? Really, park your politics at
the curb, nobody came here (joined the list) to listen to your right wing
politics, especially when it really is neither helpful nor accurate.
...The last serveral posts by the right wing political speaker were
particularly offensive and if I ran the list, I'd give that guy a "time
out." And that's ALL I'll say on the matter.

Now, keep on keeping on, folks,
RT
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Thank you, you've made my point.

1) Dismiss what you don't like to hear and give me a timeout, that's mature.

2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
we've/I've done no such thing. The maintainers of the list have listened
to those who've turned something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into
something political and are now groveling to the political Marxists.
Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
What's next?

3) As I made clear to someone else who used ad hominem against me, I'll
debate you any time on any of these issues, and I'll do it offsite. But
like this other person you'll refuse because all you have is ad hominem.
It's what you're reduced to when you're position has been destroyed.


On 7/12/2020 10:47 AM, rtroy wrote:
>
> Hi Yall,
>
> I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to
> the list.
>
> Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and
> contribute something useful.
>
> First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change
> something like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to
> do this and then, years later, the mysql team wrote a better version.
> ...I wouldn't use their database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for
> Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres was developed in the '90s - BUT,
> their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On one of my boxes, it is
> provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch
>
> I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did
> it better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the
> util-linux package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of
> many distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch
> of file names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day
> when my PATH was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it
> either.
>
> So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't
> have to be that hard.
>
> As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master /
> slave weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those
> terms. In my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do
> with slavery but rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" &
> "master chef", or command as in "ship's master," among a great many
> others nobody associates with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer
> to the copies as replicants. There are usually many good alternatives,
> we just have to be sensitive to not unnecessarily use terms some might
> deem offensive. In my book "slave" can be an unnecessary reminder of
> racial injustices, while at worst "blacklist" evokes un-just job
> discrimination, and in any event, what we're doing with a spam filter
> IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of itself is NOT bad, only
> discrimination for un-just reasons. And discriminating email based on
> who it came from is a perfectly valid reason to discriminate. As jdow
> said, discrimination on the basis of a positive or negative
> contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of appearance
> isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might discriminate on.
>
> I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not
> broken (and most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad
> for the project, not good. (If you want to do something truly helpful
> about it, see my recommendation below.)
>
> Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world
> around the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about
> background: My first job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote
> (solo) the operating system for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor
> back in the very late '70s and very early '80s (real-time, general
> purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and a CPU / hardware
> cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced stuff
> for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been
> employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and
> worked on more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of
> experience in this field.
>
> When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the
> idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by
> humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every
> language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe
> desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is
> just an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This
> usage likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding
> of the world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and
> there's a natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone
> wants a readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the
> copious works of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with
> Bill Moyers entitled "The Masks of God" - even better the book series
> of the same name that goes back some 30,000 years - worth reading no
> matter your motive.) EVERY CULTURE across the globe and throughout
> time can be easily shown to use these same metaphors for good and bad,
> desirable and undesirable. And I'm sorry but this really is an idiotic
> change to make to working code - not that I have a vote.
>
> Now, I can understand not wanting to offend the ignorant people who
> don't understand. To my mind the answer is to inform them via a simple
> web link to a source that can explain this to those concerned. This
> would be 1) doing something about some of the pain of racism some may
> feel; 2) easy to implement; 3) educational, and; 4) not consuming
> resources needlessly and not adding the risk of new bugs. Why NOT do
> this instead?! Remember, everybody's ignorant, just about different
> things is all! So, fine, we just help teach them! ...If you feel you
> have to do something about this particular problem, I would guess it's
> because you yourself feel guilty for not doing anything about racism
> before - or not enough. This proposed change to the code is a very
> poor choice of how to respond.
>
> Now, after being annoyed at the knee-jerk over-reaction, I read ALL of
> the comments and was both amused and saddened by what I found in the
> comments. ... Some people here I've come to REALLY like, and well,
> there just had to be a RWNJ in the crowd, now didn't there? Really,
> park your politics at the curb, nobody came here (joined the list) to
> listen to your right wing politics, especially when it really is
> neither helpful nor accurate. ...The last serveral posts by the right
> wing political speaker were particularly offensive and if I ran the
> list, I'd give that guy a "time out." And that's ALL I'll say on the
> matter.
>
> Now, keep on keeping on, folks,
> RT
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:

...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

Isn't there a list moderator out there?

We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems
or politics.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>
> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>
> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>
> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
It's Sunday, Moderators also have lives...
Stay inside, Stay safe.

On 7/12/20 8:10 PM, jason hirsh wrote:
> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
>
>> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>>
>> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>>
>> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>>
>> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, jason hirsh wrote:

> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe

I'd suggest that's an overreaction. This is an unusual storm on the list,
it will pass.

Unfortunately politics is somewhat unavoidable in discussing this topic,
because there is no *technical* reason for the change, and there are good
technical reasons for *not* making the change (at least, not
precipitously).

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell is an "Aluminum Falcon"?? -- Emperor Palpatine
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
8 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 12 Jul 2020, at 14:06, rtroy wrote:

> Isn't there a list moderator out there?

Any moderation decisions are inherently few and slow. That is by design.
I believe there has been all of one (1) material moderation action in
the lifetime of this list, barring someone who continues to this day to
reply to the occasional message here offlist.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:

> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
> we've/I've done no such thing.

hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:

> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
> are now groveling to the political Marxists.

Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
poster's point.

> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
> What's next?

Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
you had brainwashed into you, but...

Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
war (William Lind).

So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
needs to be next.

If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.

plonk
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
rtroy skrev den 2020-07-12 20:06:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>
> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

send it to /dev/null then, instaed of reply

> Isn't there a list moderator out there?

most people have hollidays right now

> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal
> problems or politics.

so stop self ?

if its get to much opensource debate anyone can unsubscribe
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
jason hirsh <hirshj@att.net> writes:

> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
>
>> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>>
>> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>>
>> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>>
>> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.

I think there is, because several responses I send where I showed how
the things the 'enlightened' people accuse the 'extreme right' people
of is just looking into the mirror did not appear.
What I find strange, because in my -of-course biased opinion- where a
lot less shocking as published versions on both sides of the spectrum.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Again, you've made my point.

All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.

You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.


On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:
> Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:
>
>> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
>> we've/I've done no such thing.
> hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:
>
>> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
>> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
>> are now groveling to the political Marxists.
> Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
> theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
> victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
> account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
> poster's point.
>
>> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
>> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
>> What's next?
> Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
> Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
> Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
> psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
> renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
> destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
> look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
> Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
> you had brainwashed into you, but...
>
> Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
> Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
> column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
> that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
> of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
> war (William Lind).
>
> So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
> here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
> needs to be next.
>
> If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.
>
> plonk
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Jordan says to clean your room.

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>
> Again, you've made my point.
>
> All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.
>
> You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.
>
>
> On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:
>> Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:
>>
>>> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
>>> we've/I've done no such thing.
>> hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:
>>
>>> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
>>> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
>>> are now groveling to the political Marxists.
>> Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
>> theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
>> victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
>> account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
>> poster's point.
>>
>>> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
>>> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
>>> What's next?
>> Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
>> Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
>> Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
>> psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
>> renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
>> destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
>> look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
>> Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
>> you had brainwashed into you, but...
>>
>> Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
>> Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
>> column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
>> that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
>> of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
>> war (William Lind).
>>
>> So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
>> here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
>> needs to be next.
>>
>> If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.
>>
>> plonk
>>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
&
> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]

No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a
person or two who posted egregiously enough to be banned.

This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate
politics, go somewhere else. If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is
the place.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 1:11 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> I voted aginst it, loudly.
>
>
> On 7/11/20 4:35 AM, Noel Butler wrote:
> > Who is "we"
> >
> > Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
> > and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
> > just because theirs is fucked up?
> >
> > I want names
> >
> > I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
> > who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
> >
> > I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
> > contributors to the project think
> >
> > I await your silence
>

Noel, the vote was made by the Apache SpamAssassin Project Management
Committee which is the "we" in this context. The vote passed with only +1
votes. I will not disclose how any specific member voted except myself
where not only did I instigate the topic but voted +1. We certainly care
about our users / committers and the changes are backwards compatible until
at least Apache SpamAssassin 4.1's release.

Alex, the PMC vote thread at
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4a0b93d417d4fd36850eb86b4acb67bf6886e7b16de47d1756333873%40%3Cprivate.spamassassin.apache.org%3E
does not show you voting on the topic nor commenting on the results
threard. I only show you weighing in about 2.5 months later on bugzilla.

Regards,
KAM


--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

>> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
> &
>> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]
>
> No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a person or two who posted egregiously enough to be
> banned.

Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
one you responded on would not have appeared either.


> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to
> debate politics, go somewhere else.

I do not, but if blatant inaccuracies are spit out I sometimes
respond.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:

> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
>
Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply
don't have moderation and we use a mailing list software that you would
receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.

Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?

Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list?
Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN /
queue id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

Regards,
KAM
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:
>
> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list? Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof
>
> If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN / queue id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

That is really strange then. I should have been to bed a few hours
ago. I will dive into it later.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:
>
> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list? Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
will look into it.

By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> Cecil Westerhof:
>
> I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
> did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
> will look into it.
>
> By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.

Cecil, I do not know what all you sent, but looking in my received mail for
this list and thread, I see the following timestamps I received with you
listed as the sender:

7/10 23:29
7/10 23:41
7/10 23:49
7/10 23:49
7/10 23:59
7/12 12:25
7/12 14:29
7/12 15:43
7/12 15:52 The mail I'm replying to

All times GMT-8 or mabye -9, depending on whether we are on standard or
daylight time. (I don't keep track, my clock does.)

Loren
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:

> I am still trying to figure out the rationale for forcing everybody out there
> with established lists of "whitelist_from_rcvd" and "blacklist_from_rcvd" to go
> out there and edit EVERYBODY's user_prefs or explain to users they must do this
> themselves. *I* can do this easily enough and call them foolist_from_rcvd and
> barlist_from_rcvd if needed. I am thinking if people with setups in small
> business offices that have to invade privacy or explain how so that user_prefs
> can be changed. And how about all the ancillary scripts that train spam that
> also have to be changed?
>
> This is something that is not broken, currently works, that some dolt is trying
> to fix. It's better you call that person a dolt than try to change the world and
> break everything. Making this change is dumb. It is counter-productive. It is
> even destructive. Just Say No.

That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
satify a need of renaming.

That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
break it on a whim.

Olivier

--
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself.
> But at least one message is still missing. I will look into it.

Maybe you blacklisted some guy? ;)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/13/2020 1:01 AM, Olivier wrote:
> That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
> deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
> developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
> satify a need of renaming.
>
> That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
> depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
> break it on a whim.

Olivier and others, I am guessing you have not tested the trunk and the
changes for bz 7826 as backwards compatibility was handled as far as I
know.  There is no need to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.  We went
to trouble to make rules and configuration lines work with aliases and
feature checks so nothing breaks because of this.  Further, the project
is committed to the backwards compatibility for at least 1 year after
4.0.0 is released AND not until 4.1.0 is released.

Regards,

KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200713 20:10:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> +pmc
>> So you are saying that to save somebody a passing bad feeling you are
>> throwing people under the bus who would have to edit scripts and pray.
>> What is the difference if it happens today or a year from now? What
>> Good Engineering Reason Is Served By This Pain?
>
> Joanne,
>
> I have no interest in debating you on this topic.
>
> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>
> The technical lift for a user will be an SQL query / perl one-liners to
> search and replace your conf for things like whitelist_to to
> welcomelist_to.  I'm sure the dev/user mailing list can come up with
> some examples we can add to the UPGRADE file.  And if there are projects
> that build on SA, they a year plus of warning to implement the coming
> changes.  If you know of any programs/scripts that need help, point them
> here or the dev list.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM

user_prefs - every one will have to be edited to change names eventually. People
will bitch when they have to edit their files. They will bitch of "root" goes in
and edits the file for them (quite justifiably). Likely as not rules files will
have to be repaired.

Engineering that is politically driven tends to be long term disasters. I've
been around long enough to have seen it in action. Of course, that makes me an
old irrelevant fossil. So you get to discover the same mistakes I discovered
rather than benefit from inherited experience.

How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end
users' perspective? It's a nightmare for sysadmins, "Do I save the customer the
effort and modify HIS files or do I tell the customer she has to edit the arcane
files?" One way he is damned for invading privacy. The other way he is ROUNDLY
damned for making customer lives hardware. The change is not a long term win for
anybody but those imagining "blacklist" and "whitelist" are racially related.
Can't somebody just suggest they grow up? Or is that too good a technical
quality solution?

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end users' perspective?

You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.

Stop it.



--
The cat turned and tried to find a place of safety in the suit's
breastplate. He was beginning to doubt he'd make it through the
knight.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end users' perspective?
>
> You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.
>
> Stop it.

Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?

I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At least have
the grace to admit your changes have zero technical merit, may cause pain at the
sysadmin and user level, and will happen anyway because of some nebulous social
goodness from it. (Hint, betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw
in more minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be
addressed at a social level.)

{^_^}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/14/20 9:41 AM, jdow wrote:
> On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:
>> On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product
>>> from the end users' perspective?
>>
>> You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and
>> you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on
>> this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one
>> cares.
>>
>> Stop it.
>
> Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?
>
> I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At
> least have the grace to admit your changes have zero technical
> merit, may cause pain at the sysadmin and user level, and will happen
> anyway because of some nebulous social goodness from it. (Hint,
> betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw in more
> minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be
> addressed at a social level.)
>

The sad thing about this is that while the changes may feed some egos
and make suits happy, the load is put on people who won't be able to
charge for the extra work. No client will be willing to cover these
costs. Tech workforce will be pulled off real work to massage some egos.
In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted
for. Thanks for that.
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.? The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.? As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.? The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery.

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject,
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds of
hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can easily
add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted
> for. Thanks for that.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
i already opened a voting process here Marc...

LET's VOTE...

Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to racism sensibilities?


-----Pedro
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020, 09:51:29 AM GMT+2, Marc Roos <m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:


> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery.

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject,
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling
someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If
something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any
obligations, that is na?ve perspective.
If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the
weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered
to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your
brains there, and take time to think things thru.




-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org]
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
To: Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds
of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can
easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes
out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be
accounted
for. Thanks for that.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee
aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
with a vote in early May by the PMC.

To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
that use them.

To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
Consider that when you post.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:

>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Sir, you are being awfully rude and personal.

Regards
Brent

On 2020/07/14 10:56, Marc Roos wrote:
>
> It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling
> someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If
> something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any
> obligations, that is naïve perspective.
> If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the
> weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered
> to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your
> brains there, and take time to think things thru.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org]
> Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
> To: Axb
> Cc: SA Mailing list
> Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
> Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave
>
> It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds
> of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can
> easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes
> out.
>
> That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
> With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
> distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be
> accounted
> for. Thanks for that.
>
>
>
>
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.



Van: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:03
Aan: Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>
CC: users <users@spamassassin.apache.org>; jdow <jdow@earthlink.net>
Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



Marc and others about voting,



The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.



To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that use them.



To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.



Regards, KAM



On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu <mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> > wrote:


> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200714 02:03:06, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee aka
> the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

That raises a question that deserves an answer. Who votes on whether somebody
has earned merit? I suspect it is a closed system. {o.o}

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
> use them.

I agree with you here. I am trying to keep my arguments on the technical merit
of this change. I am trying to get them to reconsider their course of action. I
am trying not to lay into them the way I'd love to. And I believe I have slipped
a little. And I am extremely skeptical this change is going to make the project
"more inclusive" and draw in new developers, which I believe was a stated
non-technical aim.

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when
> you post.

That would be wise. But, be aware that this may be taken as a combative threat
by some people. Once you are trying to appease everybody you are doomed to
failure. You find yourself trying to second guess which way to jump regarding
how many of which people will be alienated. It is lose-lose. And it's
heartbreaking to watch.

> Regards, KAM

{o.o}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public
forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and
family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and
thousands of copies.

I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now
might regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though,
is written by people and not gods.

But I will stop posting about this. I, like others, am here to stop
spammers. I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl>
wrote:

> I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s
> poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming
> someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You
> have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.
>
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
archived mailing list and you
> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.

You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
disqualify your vote.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not
solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve
anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want.
The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they
see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and
will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.

{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you
>> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
>
> You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
> whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> disqualify your vote.
>
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Yes, history is written by people, not one person. Nor should one person think (in my opinion) that they have a grasp at what will be perceived as the ‘wrong and right’ side of history while that history is still to be written.



And last of all, such standing points should never be used to try and persuade others to keep silent or keep their opinions to themselves. People have died for that right and as Obama said: I will fight to keep the right to speak your mind alive, even if that mind spews horrible lies about me (which is not exactly what he said but to that extend somewhere).



Van: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:55
Aan: Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl>
CC: m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu; users <users@spamassassin.apache.org>; jdow <jdow@earthlink.net>
Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.



I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now might regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though, is written by people and not gods.



But I will stop posting about this. I, like others, am here to stop spammers. I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.



Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl <mailto:info@majorlabel.nl> > wrote:

I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not
> solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve
> anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
> Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want.
> The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they
> see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and
> will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.
>
I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.

After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."

> {o.o}
>
> On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > archived mailing list and you
> >> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
> >
> > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
> > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > disqualify your vote.
> >
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.
>
In my book, that is veiled intimidation.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Of course the License allows forking. We are an Apache Project and use the
ASLv2.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:43 Mauricio Tavares <raubvogel@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty
> does not
> > solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to
> solve
> > anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the
> same.
> > Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think
> they) want.
> > The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for
> what they
> > see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical
> failure and
> > will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should
> think about it.
> >
> I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
> issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
> perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
> check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
> that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.
>
> After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."
>
> > {o.o}
> >
> > On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > > archived mailing list and you
> > >> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
> > >
> > > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to
> judge
> > > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > > disqualify your vote.
> > >
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 20200714 03:46:14, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.
>>
> In my book, that is veiled intimidation.

None the less it is a fact. And that fact does tend to keep normally cool minds
from losing it. It's worth reminding ourselves, (looking annoyed, frustrated,
and perturbed in equal measures) especially in this time of people not forgiving
statements made 40 or 50 years ago as if people's opinions and behavior never
really changes with maturity. That isn't "right". It;s a fact we all must live
with until society matures a little more.

I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to
technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.

{o.o}
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/14/20 12:55 PM, jdow wrote:
> I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to
> technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.

from where I sit, it will be very hard or there are no such merits / goals.
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument.

There is no technical discussion here afaik.

> Getting nasty does not solve technical problems, which we have here.
Attacks are not
> going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should
be made just the same.

There is no attack. As I am not discriminating on the level of race
origin (not native english), I am also not discriminating on the level
of intelligence. Everyone is born as they are.

Kevin should be told that jumping to such conclusions as "being on the
wrong side of history" shows a lack of thinking. It is obvious that
nobody will be able to predict the future. Logics just dictates that one
could expect more of this type of reasoning, which makes me doubt PMC
decision making. This is not being nasty, this applying logics.

I am not judging this (I do not see myself qualified), that is why I
mentioned that research from universities by people with proper
expertise in this area should be left to do this. This is to me the only
sound solution in this matter.

The irony in this, is that this type of behaviour (not listening to
others, advising to fork, not taking time to really think about what you
are doing) looks to me very similar to how some of these police officers
are misbehaving.

Thus Kevin, PMC start thinking, and least of all, do not enforce your
'limited' view upon others. Maybe the apache software foundation can
start a project with Stanford or Columbia to really research how this
affects ethnic minorities. I doubt anyone will challenge that outcome.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

DAve

----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:

> Marc and others about voting,

> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
> use them.

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
> you post.

> Regards, KAM

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu |
> M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language
was an added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially
charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major
bump would allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded
me to bring it up:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>
wrote:

> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This
> is posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee
> aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
> with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
> that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
> Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>
>>
>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is
>>
>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>> >
>>
>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.
>>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.

If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong.

DAve

----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:

> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was an
> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
> up: [
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> |
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> ]
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ]
> - 703.798.0171

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [
> mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org | dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution
>> for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even
>> understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along
>> or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more
>> clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

>> DAve

>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>> mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org | kmcgrail@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>> Marc and others about voting,

>>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
>>> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
>>> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
>>> vote in early May by the PMC.

>>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
>>> use them.

>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
>>> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
>>> you post.

>>> Regards, KAM

>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu |
>>> M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>>>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>>>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>>>> democratic.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Dave,

The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by
being less offensive and more aware of the language we use without
thinking.

Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument
fallacy. My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the
ASF founders, reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache
Nation council with all being good. The only change is that in 2009, they
asked us to standardize on referring to them as the Apache Nation but
otherwise, there are no issues with the Apache name. We are proud to use
the name Apache and hope that our great work as a foundation brings it the
honor it deserves.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>
wrote:

> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.
>
> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
> change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both
> are not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if
> you are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply
> be wrong.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language
> was an added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially
> charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major
> bump would allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded
> me to bring it up:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>>
>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
>> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
>> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
>> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
>> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This
>> is posturing and pandering.
>>
>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>>
>> DAve
>>
>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Marc and others about voting,
>>
>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned
>> by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management
>> committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in
>> early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>>
>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore
>> messages that use them.
>>
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
>> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
>> Consider that when you post.
>>
>> Regards, KAM
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is
>>>
>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>>> >
>>>
>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>>> democratic.
>>>
>>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
jdow,

Change: Words 'blacklist/whitelist' to something politically correct
(hope and change).

Proponents: Those who want this change

Opponents: Those who don't want this change

Though we agree in the end--we're both opponents--I believe arguing the
technical merits is useless (not with me, with the proponents) since the
decision by the proponents wasn't based in the technical, it was based
in the social.

As I've pointed out in previous posts the proponents are under a delusion.

The multicultural agenda is doomed to fail because it seeks to unify
people who think differently as is evidenced on this list. Look at
Europe and the U.S. now. There has been years of the multicultural
agenda pushed on these cultures and it has brought no unity but upheaval
and it will only get worse. The proponents are bringing about their own
demise. It may not happen immediately, but it will happen.

We've been accused of making this political. We haven't. The politics
were forced on us. The reasons of the proponents bear this out. When we
respond politically,  we're charged with making it political or told to
go away.

How does on reason with people like this. As I've found out, you can't.

Unity is achieved among people who have the same mind.

Eric Broch



On 7/14/2020 4:07 AM, jdow wrote:
> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty
> does not solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not
> going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should
> be made just the same. Then the open source developers will go off and
> do what they (think they) want. The job is to lead them to thinking
> they want something different for what they see as good reasons.
> Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and will not
> provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think
> about it.
>
> {o.o}
>
> On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
>> archived mailing list and you
>>> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
>>
>> You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
>> whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
>> here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
>> disqualify your vote.
>>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:

> As I've pointed out in previous posts the proponents are under a delusion.

It is fascinating that the person who cried about ad hominem attacks so
much resorts to the very same.

Every time Eric Broch writes to me off-list, or on list about this
subject, I donate another $10 to a cultural marxist organization in his
name. Thanks Eric for your continued support of BLM!

--
micah
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Kevin A. McGrail:

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.

"The horror... The horror..." (W. Kurtz) :-)

Seriously, what's with the drama? This discussion already has emotions
running high.

As I mentioned before: What may or may not count as "racially charged"
in America does not automatically apply to the rest of the world. It is
quite obvious from this thread that Americans don't even agree among
themselves. Also, remember that American history does not automatically
interest the whole globe.

Announcing changes for which there are no technical necessities is prone
to cause discussions, and that's a Good Thing(TM) in my book. You may
have voted earlier, but apparently a wider public has only now found out
about these changes (which includes myself). I don't have a vote, but
I'll "risk" (SCNR) commenting publicly on what I consider unnecessary
and, in fact, a harmful attempt to restrict use of the English language.
It is, in my experience, not the most nuanced language anyway.

-Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Semantics, I chose the wrong project name but the point is still there. That the Apache Nation doesn't mind is not important in today's culture, I know black people who do not feel offended by the term blacklist.

I do not believe the term blacklist had any racial origins, until white people assigned race to it. If it was not racist before, and you make it racist now just so you can change it, isn't that a bit elitist? Even racist?

I do not see the problem you are trying to solve. I do not know w hat black schools have no IT training programs because the terms being used offend the student body. I do not understand how the use of these terms is harming the industry and how changing these terms will open doors to people of color that have been closed until now.

I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because it is more descriptive. Changing them because they are racially charged is silly. BLM is not going to give you a big hurrah on twitter for your efforts.

I can't stop it from happening, so be it.

DAve

----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 9:15 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:

> Dave,
> The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by being
> less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.

> Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
> Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument fallacy.
> My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
> reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with all
> being good. The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
> referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
> the Apache name. We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
> work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.

> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ]
> - 703.798.0171

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich < [
> mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org | dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
>> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.

>> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must change
>> the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are not
>> important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are not a
>> native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong.

>> DAve

>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>> mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org | kmcgrail@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was an
>>> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
>>> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
>>> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
>>> up: [
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>>> |
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
>>> ]
>>> Regards,
>>> KAM
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ]
>>> - 703.798.0171

>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [
>>> mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org | dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>>>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

>>>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution
>>>> for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even
>>>> understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along
>>>> or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more
>>>> clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

>>>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

>>>> DAve

>>>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>>>> mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org | kmcgrail@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>>>> Marc and others about voting,

>>>>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
>>>>> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
>>>>> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
>>>>> vote in early May by the PMC.

>>>>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
>>>>> use them.

>>>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
>>>>> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
>>>>> you post.

>>>>> Regards, KAM

>>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu |
>>>>> M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>>>>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>>>>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>>>>>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>>>>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>>>>>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>>>>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>>>>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>>>>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>>>>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>>>>>> democratic.
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist
because it is more descriptive.

Allow/deny list sounds more logical.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/14/20 4:05 PM, Dave Goodrich wrote:
> I can't stop it from happening, so be it.

Here's an idea..
if enough voices are loud enough... Make yourself heard, press, twitter,
etc.. use the same channels which are being used to favour the change.

Or are there too many ppl who fear being in the wrong side of history.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms to
change. After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome
and block which also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc.
consistent so there is less upheaval.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:08 AM Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:

>
>
> > I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist
> because it is more descriptive.
>
> Allow/deny list sounds more logical.
>
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms
to change.
> After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
block which
> also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent
> so there is less upheaval.

I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is,
and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see
how you can maintain those acronyms.
Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is
adapting to standards.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Your association is just antiquated. I can't remember exactly when but
blocklist has been getting used to replace the racially-charged nature of
blacklist. Here's a public example from 2012:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy


This verbiage change isn't new and the impetus wasn't political nor
American-driven. It's just the right time to do it AND we have 4.0's
release giving us the perfect opportunity.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:28 AM Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:

>
>
>
> > Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms
> to change.
> > After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
> block which
> > also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent
> > so there is less upheaval.
>
> I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is,
> and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see
> how you can maintain those acronyms.
> Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is
> adapting to standards.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I would argue that welcome is better than allow in many contexts,
including SpamAssassin. After all, w.*list isn't just used to indicate
something is allowed, but to indicate that we actively want to receive
the email in question (by lowering its score).

You allow a maintenance worker into your apartment, but you welcome
a friend


On Tue, 14 Jul 2020, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms to
> change.  After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
> block which also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc.
> consistent so there is less upheaval.
> Regards,
> KAM
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:08 AM Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>  
>
> > I like the change from whitelist/blacklist to
> allowlist/blocklist
> because it is more descriptive.
>
> Allow/deny list sounds more logical.
>
>
>

--
Public key #7BBC68D9 at | Shane Williams
http://pgp.mit.edu/ | System Admin - UT CompSci
=----------------------------------+-------------------------------
All syllogisms contain three lines | shanew@shanew.net
Therefore this is not a syllogism | www.ischool.utexas.edu/~shanew
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> racially-charged nature of blacklist

There is no such thing.

Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be judged upon.

On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather turns out to be.

On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...

Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not dare writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because of the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said so, and because you are forcing it.

Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not blame us for it.

-------- Original Message --------
On 14 Jul 2020, 16:48, Kevin A. McGrail < kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
Your association is just antiquated. I can't remember exactly when but blocklist has been getting used to replace the racially-charged nature of blacklist. Here's a public example from 2012: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy

This verbiage change isn't new and the impetus wasn't political nor American-driven. It's just the right time to do it AND we have 4.0's release giving us the perfect opportunity.

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:28 AM Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:

> Yeah, allow/deny is more logical but using them requires all acronyms
to change.
> After some trial and error, we dialed in the changes to welcome and
block which
> also keeps other terminology like RBL, DNSBL, WLBL, etc. consistent
> so there is less upheaval.

I associate BL with blacklist. If that is how the general perception is,
and most of what is written on the internet is relating to, I don't see
how you can maintain those acronyms.
Allow/deny is also commonly used in linux so one could argue, it is
adapting to standards.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/14/20 8:15 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
> referring to them as the /*_Apache Nation_*/ but otherwise, there are
> no issues with the Apache name.  We are proud to use the name Apache
> and hope that our great work as a foundation brings it the honor it
> deserves.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>

So out of curiosity Mr. McGrail,
for the sake of consistency and common courtesy to Native Americans
wishes, don't you need to modify your signature line ?
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
We'll have to agree to disagree. To me it is clearly racially charged
language and you are cherry picking your sources. Here's a well researched
and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The abstract
says it very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist
language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples include
terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use of
such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but also serves to
legitimize and perpetuate it."

I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social
issue, not a political issue. However, I didn't do so unilaterally because
that's not how projects at Apache work.

When the time comes for a 4.0 release, we, meaning the project management
commitment, will follow our well documented voting procedures to create and
approve a release announcement. I have no interest in causing strife but
if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I will call it a duck.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 AM Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com>
wrote:

>
> > racially-charged nature of blacklist
>
> There is no such thing.
>
> Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and
> black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be
> judged upon.
>
> On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather
> turns out to be.
>
> On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...
>
> Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not
> dare writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because
> of the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said
> so, and because you are forcing it.
>
> Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not
> blame us for it.
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 14 Jul 2020, at 9:24, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Here's a well researched
> and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
> citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The
> abstract
> says it very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of
> racist
> language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples
> include
> terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use
> of
> such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but also serves
> to
> legitimize and perpetuate it."

You might want to note that it was included in JMLA Vol 106, No 4 (2018)
in the **Commentary** section, along with pieces such as

"Using Slack to communicate with medical students"
"The relative citation ratio: what is it and why should medical
librarians care?"
"Transforming the systematic review service: a team-based model to
support the educational needs of researchers"
and
"How to earn a reputation as a great partner"

So yeah, quoting a magazine article on a scientific-sounding source is
great and all, but perhaps the citation is not as authoritative as you
think it is. If you actually go and read the paper, you will see that
the "evidence" the authors present is based on other people's similarly
sourced lists. There are no surveys, polls or other mechanisms to query
the actual sentiment of the allegedly affected population. I also have
to note that this piece was not peer reviewed, so there was no checks
for methodology or accuracy – why would there need to be one, it's
commentary after all.

The quote provides proof that the topic is controversial. Not surprising
judging by the length of the threads. I think it is also clear that
there are two well defined poles on the issue.

Dismissing those that oppose this change as "socially insensitive" or
"racists", as has been seen in previous messages, is a transparent
attempt to demonize the opposition. The same can be said of those
dismissing the group that wants to edit the terms. Both group have their
own motivations and I am pretty sure that each believe their motivations
to be good. I believe so about my own and I'm sure you are the same.

The vote of the PMC is being presented as an unsurmountable, immovable
design from the gods that need to be followed by all. I think the PMC
would be very wise to recognize that their prior vote lacked in
consideration to all the positions and should be reconsidered after an
appropriate opportunity to internalize the arguments that have been
presented. After all, it has been recognized by some defenders of the
term replacement, that this action is a mere gesture devoid of actual
ability to change the real underlying problem – which is not
constrained to the US, as some mentioned.

Best regards

-lem
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Luis, the article I quoted was well research and included expert
citations.  I'd be interested if you can find me one that says it isn't
racially-charged with expert citations, please.  Especially one that has
citations almost 50 years old that mention the problem.

> The vote of the PMC is being presented as an unsurmountable, immovable
> design from the gods that need to be followed by all. I think the PMC
> would be very wise to recognize that their prior vote lacked in
> consideration to all the positions and should be reconsidered after an
> appropriate opportunity to internalize the arguments that have been
> presented. After all, it has been recognized by some defenders of the
> term replacement, that this action is a mere gesture devoid of actual
> ability to change the real underlying problem – which is not
> constrained to the US, as some mentioned.

The PMC voted to make the changes and make the changes 100% backwards
compatible for no less than a year.  They also won't be considered for
removal until SA 4.1 is released.  Therefore, to me the hullabaloo is
fairly pointless.  People stuck in the past who insist on not changing
have that choice.

The ONLY technical battle worth discussing is way down the road and
that's whether enough movement has been made by 4.1 that delaying the
removal of backwards compatibility.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
The technical merit is simple, it's not broken, don't fix it.

There is no technical merit to be achieved here. I feel that a lot of the argument here is just that.

The is merely a moral merit.

I think these types of changes should be used for new projects, but for existing projects like SA the risk versus reward might be too high. Will SA live long if the implantation fails and takes down a couple systems for notable companies? If email fails because of a small change you risk hurting the project more than promoting it.
I think this moral merit change is splitting this community at this point, and that is how we kill projects.

Now I'm not weighing in on whether this change is right or wrong from a geopolitical point of view and that's just a rabbit hole for absolute interpretation by the observers (what offends one does not offend the other, vice versa). You will never please 100% of the people 100% of the time, you will only ever please the loudest or the ones that would cause the most trouble (these are just general observations of life).

Hopefully this is not the hill SA dies on.


-----Original Message-----
From: jdow <jdow@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 3:07 AM
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org; Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>; kmcgrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want.
The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.

{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you
>> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
>
> You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to
> judge whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise
> questions here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC
> should disqualify your vote.
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 14 Jul 2020, at 10:10, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

Kevin,

If my words or position had any chance of modifying course, I would
certainly do so again. But as you say further down, the "hullabaloo" of
people trying to present other points of view, is pointless.

> Luis, the article I quoted was well research and included expert
> citations.  I'd be interested if you can find me one that says it
> isn't
> racially-charged with expert citations, please.  Especially one that
> has
> citations almost 50 years old that mention the problem.

I meant actual research, where they reach out to affected populations,
poll them and actually go through data to reach a conclusion. I am
biased here with being an engineer and all, but that is the kind of
evidence I would like to see.

Quoting editorial pieces will lead us nowhere.

> The PMC voted to make the changes and make the changes 100% backwards
> compatible for no less than a year.  They also won't be considered
> for
> removal until SA 4.1 is released.  Therefore, to me the hullabaloo is
> fairly pointless.  People stuck in the past who insist on not
> changing
> have that choice.
>
> The ONLY technical battle worth discussing is way down the road and
> that's whether enough movement has been made by 4.1 that delaying the
> removal of backwards compatibility.

Understood. I will shut up now. Thanks for your time.

-lem
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree. To me it is clearly racially charged
> language and you are cherry picking your sources. Here's a well
> researched
> and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
> citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The
> abstract
>
The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list' was in
1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those who
had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more likely
that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to anybody's
skin colour.

I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
about 1640.

Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
coined and where did that happen?

Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt to
denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in to
read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader and
so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment and
failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil Rights
movement in the 1960's as anything else. Before then white and black
definitely had negative connotations such as whites-only restrooms, areas
on busses, restaurants, water fountains, neighborhoods, and whatever other
atrocities people thought of to inflict on people by race. SA is going to
stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of racially charged language.

For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the
change is embraced.

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:08 PM Martin Gregorie <martin@gregorie.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> > We'll have to agree to disagree. To me it is clearly racially charged
> > language and you are cherry picking your sources. Here's a well
> > researched
> > and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert
> > citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The
> > abstract
> >
> The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list' was in
> 1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those who
> had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more likely
> that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to anybody's
> skin colour.
>
> I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
> 1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
> religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
> This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
> the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
> about 1640.
>
> Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
> coined and where did that happen?
>
> Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt to
> denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in to
> read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader and
> so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment and
> failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
> Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Kevin A. McGrail:

> I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil
> Rights movement in the 1960's as anything else. Before then white and
> black definitely had negative connotations [...]

And we're back, once again, to America: The *US* Civil Rights movement
(which I consider a positive thing by the way). You obviously continue
to ignore that white/black mean different things across the globe.

If you talk about "die Schwarzen" (lit. "the Blacks") in Germany without
specifying a different context, in most civil minded discussions people
will assume you are talking about members of the either one of the
established conservative parties CDU/CSU, i.e. the governing parties.
"Die Roten" (lit. "the Reds") would be the socialist democratic party
SPD, "die Gelben" (lit. "the Yellows") the free decmocratic party FDP,
and so forth.

Look at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_Bundesregierungen,
the list of German governments over time, and you will see how the
various colours match political parties here. This is just one country,
but the one in which I happen to live, and what America thinks about
colours does not interest me all that much.

> SA is going to stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of racially
> charged language.

This is and remains primarily a US-centric issue, no matter if you try
to convince us (and perhaps even yourself) otherwise. I don't care if
you can sleep better at night. It is obnoxious and arrogant to try and
push a America-centric (or possibly Anglo-centric) viewpoint on the
world. We do you the courtesy of speaking English, so please do us the
courtesy of not bullying us about what you consider permissible or
racially charged.

> For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the
> change is embraced.

Hope all you like. It is not.

-Ralph
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I really do not get the point of refering to some period, are you a
historian? I am not doing any research on this subject but, the
white/black good/bad dualism[1] goes as far back as 1000BC, who are we
(current generation) to stamp this as being racist and alter the meaning
of it's use in the 1000's of years before. If you are using a few
hundred years as an argument. I have a few thousand years as counter
argument. And lets be honest, US culture is nothing compared to eg
Chinese. If it where not for their gun powder invention, there would not
have been a genocide killing around 50? million native Americans.

Your arguments do not make sense, because you are not able to judge this
with your limited knowledge of the situation, (as I am not qualified).
Do you get that this is beyond your capabilities? You are deciding
something that a team of 100 experts al with higher IQ than yours,
specilized in the various aspects that come into play, probably have
difficulties giving a general advice.





[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org]
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 21:16
To: martin@gregorie.org
Cc: Rupert Gallagher; Marc Roos; Dave Goodrich; SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

I would posit that the 1962 date is rooted as much in the US Civil
Rights movement in the 1960's as anything else. Before then white and
black definitely had negative connotations such as whites-only
restrooms, areas on busses, restaurants, water fountains, neighborhoods,
and whatever other atrocities people thought of to inflict on people by
race. SA is going to stop legitimizing and perpetuating the use of
racially charged language.

For those who insist, you have backwards compatibility and I hope the
change is embraced.

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171



On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:08 PM Martin Gregorie <martin@gregorie.org>
wrote:


On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:24 -0400, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree. To me it is clearly racially
charged
> language and you are cherry picking your sources. Here's a well
> researched
> and documented article from a medical journal on the topic with
expert
> citations: https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The
> abstract
>
The first *recorded* use of the term 'blacklist' or 'black list'
was in
1660 when Charles II of England used it to refer to a list of those
who
had killed his father, Charles I. From the context it is far more
likely
that 'black list' was referring to the sin of regicide than to
anybody's
skin colour.

I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier
than
1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the
earlier
religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by
it.
This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society
in
the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America
before
about 1640.

Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black'
first
coined and where did that happen?

Me? I grew up in NZ where the social norms were against any attempt
to
denigrate Maoris: anybody who would not let a Maori meter-reader in
to
read his electricity meter would not be sent a pakeha meter reader
and
so was more or less guaranteed to get a heavy fine for late payment
and
failing to get his meter read. Similarly, I don't remember the All
Blacks, national rugby team, ever not having Maoris in it.

Martin
RE: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> We do you the courtesy of speaking English, so please do us the
courtesy of not bullying us about
> what you consider permissible or racially charged.

That is our own fault also. I have been trying to get funding for a
project to counter some US monopoly, but we have here just cheap/greedy
investors that do not allow for such ideas to sprout. Since you brought
up the language aspect, you might be pleased to read that my favorite
saying is German, "gegen Dummheit k?mpfen G?tter selbst vergebens"
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
> Here's a well researched and documented article from a medical
> journal on the topic with expert citations:
> https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490 The abstract says it
> very well: "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist
> language in discussions concerning predatory publishing. Examples
> include terminology such as blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep.
> The use of such terms does not merely reflect a racist culture, but
> also serves to legitimize and perpetuate it."

I was impressed by the plethora of citations when I first overlooked the
article. However, none of those citations prove that black* and white*
are connected to race. Any citation around "predatory publishing" can be
ignored in our context, because that term is completely unrelated to
linguistics or racism, so such citation cannot prove a point but merely
serve as an example that those words can be found in journal texts.

[40-42] where citations that seemed promising, but I could not
find the full articles without a paywall in front of them. The cited
passages from [40-42] in the article itself though, i.e. the
connotations of "WHITENESS" and "BLACKNESS", do not prove a connection
to race.

Another statement from the article:

> It is notable that the first recorded use of the term occurs at the
> time of mass enslavement and forced deportation of Africans to work
> in European-held colonies in the Americas.
Even if this were true, it does not mean that every word around black-
and whiteness is automatically connected to race.

As Kurt Fitzner pointed out:

> White and black have been and are references to light and dark, and
> in every language race and culture on the planet are used in compound
> words, phrases and sentences that evoke metaphors of good and bad

My latin dictionary refers to "ignes nigri" and "hic niger est" as
examples of metaphors of badness that have been used by Horace or Virgil
before the 1590s.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
They created a problem that was not there and then "solved it". Aren't they
marvelous? Solving social problems by means of technical name changes does not
solve either technical or social problems. This has been my experience
repeatedly. Are we now not able to include a color in descriptions of technical
features? What does that do to the black and white bands on resistor color
codes? After all, white (9) is a higher number than black (1) which is, of
course, blatant racial profiling, right?

What social problem is this supposed to solve? Is it real or is it made up? As a
woman neologisms such as "hesh" and "hir" do not reassure me and make me more
comfortable in the various technical communities I join because of my interests.
A few times, not NEARLY as often as four decades ago or more, I've taken
advantage of the fact you guys cannot see me and draw inferences mostly based on
such technical expertise as I demonstrate. Then I let my being a woman leak out,
I use my name in addition to my usual signature glyph. Some of the men cannot
accept a woman being a peer. Recognition for expertise, ability, and knowledge
is WAY WAY more important when you want to create an "inclusive" group than
choice or pronouns. I figure I am included when people automatically presume I
am part of "you guys" when they use that phrase. When I am accepted the pronouns
drop out of importance.

I an not here to be a "gurl". I am here as somebody who commits sysadmin
functions on a small two man* office for me and my partner. I can extrapolate
the problems we will face to those people who perform system administration
functions for collections of small businesses on a consulting basis. Customers
will see their need to take actions or accept "somebody snooping on their
settings" on the consultant. You guys at Apache are in the clear. The customers
won't be charging their anger to your karma. I am not in technical groups to
flaunt my femininity or lack there of. I am not here partner hunting. I am not
here as a woman. I am here as a user who has some level of technical capability.
I've not been demonstrating it lately because mostly it works and when it does
not I make rules for myself that do work. And my partner is even better at
making rules. Since SARE died sharing the rules has sort of fallen away. So I
tend to be silent until I am faced with "it just works" quit working. I am
human. I resent that imposition for reasons I rather consider spurious and
utterly without technical merit.

I see a change being made to solve a phantom social problem pandering to some
truly violent people some of whom brag about being trained Marxist agitators.
That change causes technical and social problems for a class of your (admittedly
non paying) customers to whom you pass along the need to make changes for no
good technical reason. These violent people will never be appeased by changes
you make. So why bother to make the changes? Rather ask, no demand, your lazy
assed politicians to do their jobs.

As for the social problem, Kevin, I am afraid that as I see it you are a part of
the problem not part of any applicable social or technical solution.

{^_^}

* "two man" is less typing than "two person" and less silly than any other three
letter neologism that recognizes "man" is really "male" and "female" and 307
different shades in between. Man means human here. That is something that so far
is all inclusive. I do not expect that to last forever. The term has to grow to fit.

On 20200714 05:28:56, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I think you are reading other people's take on things.  Clearer language was an
> added bonus but never the reason.  The reason was to remove racially charged
> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
> allow for disruption.  Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
> up:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org
> <mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
>
> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This is
> posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org
> <mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned
> by demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management
> committee aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started
> in early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore
> messages that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
> Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu
> <mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>> wrote:
>
>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The
> change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social
> benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Kevin, the mistake made every time this issue comes up, and I've seen since the
N word letter was followed by egro, is the silly notion that changing
nomenclature will change anything real when what is needed is more respect for
what a person brings to a situation than manufactured respect for what they are
physically. It implies very directly that a person who respects another for his
accomplishments ignoring skin color is a de facto racist. You are sending
exactly the wrong message. Respect a person for his abilities and character
today. The past, the skin color, the number of properly working appendages, the
presence or absence of hair on the head, the preferred partner choices, matter
only in very specific circumstances. Respect for a person's abilities and
character apply to every situation. Which does more good?

{^_^}

On 20200714 06:15:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Dave,
>
> The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by being
> less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.
>
> Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
> Project with the Apache Software Foundation.  This is just an argument fallacy.
> My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
> reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with all
> being good.  The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
> referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
> the Apache name.  We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
> work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org
> <mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
>
> No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
> others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.
>
> If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
> change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are
> not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you
> are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be
> wrong.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org
> <mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> I think you are reading other people's take on things.  Clearer language
> was an added bonus but never the reason.  The reason was to remove
> racially charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since
> the major bump would allow for disruption.  Further, this article was
> what reminded me to bring it up:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich
> <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org <mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
>
> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go
> to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion
> on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had
> merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of
> history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and
> understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
> <kmcgrail@apache.org <mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org>> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are
> earned by demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project
> management committee aka the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on
> this change started in early April with a vote in early May by
> the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will
> ignore messages that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a
> publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side
> of history.  Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu
> <mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>> wrote:
>
>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.
> The change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of
> a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how
> computing is
> > done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the
> social benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this
> group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is
> being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 14 Jul 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> I notice that the abstract you quoted has no references earlier than
> 1962, so I find it hard to take it seriously, especially as the earlier
> religious links between 'black' and 'sin' appear to be ignored by it.
> This is odd considering how much influence religion had on society in
> the 17th century and that there was no slavery in North America before
> about 1640.

That last bit is plain wrong. Jamestown had Africans as slaves as early
as 1619, but the Spanish were even earlier, having brought slaves on
an expedition to present-day South Carolina in 1526 (slaves who then
rebelled and essentially destroyed the settlement's ability to
survive).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/misguided-focus-1619-beginning-slavery-us-damages-our-understanding-american-history-180964873/

As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
"curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.

Furthermore, even if "black" and "sin" are linked prior to the use of
black as racist, this does not diminish the reality that "white"
racist views of "black" people are long-standing. And, as pure
conjecture, if European Christians associated black with sin and evil,
it's not much of a leap to suggest these associations suggested or
strengthened their racist views of black people as lazy (Sloth),
capricious (Greed) and lustful (Lust), among other negative qualities.


> Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black' first
> coined and where did that happen?

While there are earlier uses of the term "black" referring to
darker-skinned people, it most directly comes to us via the European
Enlightment, and it was racist from the start. The quick version is
that various "natural philosophers" in the late 1600s tried to
describe and account for the different "races" that they encountered
in the world. One famous account is from Fran?ois Bernier, entitled
"New Division of the Earth by the Different Species or 'Races' of Man
that Inhabit It."
https://web.archive.org/web/20060524134126/http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant275/reader/bernier.PDF
Bernier doesn't explicitly classify these groups into color in this
piece, but he does say " if a black African pair be transported to a
cold country, their children are just as black, and so are all their
descendants until they come to marry with white women." Additionally,
he describes their hair as "not properly hair, but rather a species of
wool, which comes near the hairs of some of our dogs". Just an
example of how the "other" is not proper, but rather is animalistic.

For explicit connection between race and color, as well as clear
expressions of white racial superiority, we have Carl Linnaeus to
thank. In the first edition of Systema Naturae, from 1735, he
classififed humans into four subgroups or "varieties" of human species
(later expanded to five), and by the 1758 version these were
specifically associated with color: White (Europeanus), Yellow
(Asiaticus), Black (Africanus), and Red (Americanus).
https://www.nature.com/articles/447028a

To say his descriptions of these "species" feels oddly familiar in our
modern world would be an understatement:

Africanus is desribed as "black, phlegmatic, relaxed; black, frizzled
hair; silky skin, flat nose, tumid lips; females without shame;
mammary glands give milk abundantly; crafty, sly, lazy, cunning,
lustful, careless; anoints himself with grease; and governed by
caprice."

Europeanus, on the other hand, is described as "white, sanguine,
browny; with abundant, long hair; blue eyes; gentle, acute, inventive;
covered with close vestments; and governed by laws."

These are the beginnings of scientific racism, and while it's mostly
rejected these days, it still has modern proponents. Wikipedia has a
good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

Another interesting scientific debate that reveals racism in the
European Enlightenment (and the history of science, lest we think of
it and it's cousin technology somehow innocent of racism)) is
monogenism vs polygenism and the theory of degeneration that the
monogenists posited to explain the differences in race and ethinicity.
The jist of it is that "white" people reflect the "normal" state of
man, and other races have degenerated based on environmental and
climate differences around the world. Moved to a more temperate
climate, Georges-Louis Buffon suggested, a black person from Senegal
would eventually return to his "normal" white, blonde and blue-eyed
state. Clearly wrong, but also clearly racist. And it wasn't some
fringe belief. The likes of David Hume and Immanuel Kant, while
dissagreeing with Buffon that someone could return to "normal" just by
moving to a different climate, agreed that "the Negroes, and in
general all the other species of men [are] naturally inferior to the
whites" (Hume) or that "the Negroes of Africa have by nature no
feeling that rises above the trifling"
https://books.google.com/books?id=eem1AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9#v=onepage&q&f=false


--
Public key #7BBC68D9 at | Shane Williams
http://pgp.mit.edu/ | System Admin - UT CompSci
=----------------------------------+-------------------------------
All syllogisms contain three lines | shanew@shanew.net
Therefore this is not a syllogism | www.ischool.utexas.edu/~shanew
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Sir, with all due respect, your extreme arrogance is exceptionally off putting.
You imagine a problem. Then demand it be solved damn the consequences. You
imagined the wrong problem. So your non-solution is doomed. Systemic racism is
in YOUR head not MY head. Respect is in MY head. I am not sure it is in your
head. Respect is the social lubricant you need not stupid word changes. It is
sad you do not see this. And your sublime arrogance about it is rather off putting.

{o.o}

On 20200714 09:24:42, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree.  To me it is clearly racially charged language
> and you are cherry picking your sources.  Here's a well researched and
> documented article from a medical journal on the topic with expert citations:
> https://jmla.pitt.edu/ojs/jmla/article/view/490  The abstract says it very well:
> "This commentary addresses the widespread use of racist language in discussions
> concerning predatory publishing. Examples include terminology such as
> blacklists, whitelists, and black sheep. The use of such terms does not merely
> reflect a racist culture, but also serves to legitimize and perpetuate it."
>
> I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social issue, not a
> political issue.  However, I didn't do so unilaterally because that's not how
> projects at Apache work.
>
> When the time comes for a 4.0 release, we, meaning the project management
> commitment, will follow our well documented voting procedures to create and
> approve a release announcement.  I have no interest in causing strife but if it
> quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, I will call it a duck.
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 11:49 AM Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com
> <mailto:ruga@protonmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> > racially-charged nature of blacklist
>
> There is no such thing.
>
> Black list originates from black book, that is a book with white pages and
> black cover, with black ink, where sins are listed in haven for you to be
> judged upon.
>
> On the colour of the cover, it is black because that's how old leather turns
> out to be.
>
> On the colour of ink, try writing white ink on black paper if you can...
>
> Stop using SA to push your political agenda. When v4 comes out, do not dare
> writing that *we* decided to *change* blacklist into blocklist because of
> the "racially-charged nature" of it, because it is not, because we said so,
> and because you are forcing it.
>
> Have the courage to put your own name under your own decision, do not blame
> us for it.
>
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 16:50 -0500, shanew@shanew.net wrote:
> That last bit is plain wrong. Jamestown had Africans as slaves as
> early as 1619,
>
Fair enough - I was ignoring the Spanish because it seems to me,
possibly wrongly, that what they did in that sphere had little influence
on the English-speaking world.

> As for the influence of religion at this time, surely you're aware of
> Biblical defenses of racism and slavery, whether in the form of the
> "curse of Ham" or the suggestion that slavery was a necessary evil
> because it would control the sinful, less humane, black race.
>
Sure, but we're discussing the root of the Xtian association of black
with an evil soul, not with biblically sanctioned skin colour-neutral
slavery.

> > Out of pure curiosity, when was the current racist use of 'black'
> > first coined and where did that happen?

> The quick version is that various "natural philosophers" in the late
> 1600s tried to describe and account for the different "races" that
> they encountered in the world. One famous account is from François
> Bernier, entitled "New Division of the Earth by the Different Species
> or 'Races' of Man that Inhabit It."
>
That just makes my point: that the term 'black list', first documented
to be used by Charles II in 1640 about assuredly used by English persons
with probably some Scandinavian ancestry (William of 1066 fame was of
mixed Norse-French ancestry) was referring to 'black sin' rather than
black skins before said 'natural philosophers', Linnaeus, etc. chose to
apply it to black-skinned people with a racial meaning.

Thanks for that confirmation.

Martin
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Social Justice activism is political.

On 7/14/2020 10:24 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I am proud to say I voted for this issue and support it as social
> issue, not a political issue.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 11/07/2020 21:39, Axb wrote:

> On 7/11/20 1:32 PM, Antony Stone wrote: On Saturday 11 July 2020 at 12:42:43, hospice admin wrote:
>
> Concentrating on the technical issues below ...
>
> I think there's a fairly wide consensus among those posting on this thread,
> myself included, that this does not 'make the technology better'.
>
> That's the point I was attempting to make about Mercedes ... painting their
> cars a different colour does nothing to make it better or worse ... just
> different [.in a way that has nothing to do with practical support for
> diversity of any kind].
>
> For me, the risks of messing up Spam Assassin [or anything else] for months
> to come completely outweighs the benefits of a token 'tip of the hat'
> towards diversity.
> Unfortunately you speak with the voice of reason, and that is never welcome
> when people are bent on enforcing "political correctness" on the world.
>
> Any dissenting opinion is regarded as "missing the point" or being
> "insensitive to the oppressed", whether the situation in which the correctness
> police are enforcing their views has anything to do with the oppressed or not.
>
> I wish you luck in asking people to debate the real question of whether there
> is in fact any problem to be solved, and if there is, what is the sensible way
> to solve it.
>
> For my part, until anyone can show that the use of words such as blacklist or
> master/slave in technology has anything to do with racial references and are
> therefore being used in an offensive way, rather than as standard terms for the
> industry with no reference at all to human social groups, they're just
> demonstrating themselves as stirring up trouble and heated debate where there
> is no real problem.

Amen to that!
And the ppl pushing these changes now obviously won't step back because
they'd loose their face.

I don't wish them the best. They will be causing a huge amount of ppl a
truckload of grief and unnecessary work.

Axb

100% !

Looks like i'll have to break my lifetime stance and take pity on
bankers and accountants as well huh

I mean no more you're "in the black"

and bugger me, after some news trash out of - you guess it, the USA
about redskins offending indians and some football, I guess they''' have
to stop saying your'e " in the red" too

only in fucking america.

SA is open source enough to fork yeah? I can see that happening

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 13/07/2020 06:48, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate politics, go somewhere else. If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is the place.

Bullshit it isnt a political forum - YOU Kevin made it one !

One which clearly 99% of people you know them, the users? the users
that make SA relative, disagree with.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright
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this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete
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Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Firstly, not directred at you lbutlr, but to Harry since I dont care to
read his vile trash, BUT,

Let the history note that at 0917 on Wednesday, 15 July 2020, I agreed
with something he allegedly posted.

On 12/07/2020 09:23, @lbutlr wrote:

> On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
>
>> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
>> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
>> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Now, back to OP @lbutlr

> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?

Thats been Harry's trait for years its why he is moderated here, its why
he is moderated or banned from so many lists I lost count over the
years. He's a sociopath as he sees nothing wrong with what he does.

--
Kind Regards,

Noel Butler

This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged
information, therefore remains confidential and subject to copyright
protected under international law. You may not disseminate any part of
this message without the authors express written authority to do so. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender then delete
all copies of this message including attachments immediately.
Confidentiality, copyright, and legal privilege are not waived or lost
by reason of the mistaken delivery of this message.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 14/07/2020 19:03, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:

> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.

Ahhhhh now the true dictatorship comes out

"how dare you disagree with me" "dont like you hating on my decisions"
wahh wahhhhhhhhh wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You are the only one being inconsiderate Kevin, if you actually were
serious you would have brought this this out on this list for
discussion, with you know, T H E U S E R S of the software to have
their say, without us YOU are irrelevant.

it shows you treating every single one of us with utter contempt.

YOU made this decision, YOU have to live with ALL the consequences both
good AND bad so suck it up princess.

your attack on people disagreeing with you shows YOU have NO thought to
anyone on this but for jumping on some bandwagon"

As for side of history? pfft I like probably over 50% of this list are
NOT Americans, but the world is used to Americans trying to force their
views down down everyone elses throat.

Feel free to ignore me, I, like most here have made their point very
clear we are disgusted with your dictatorship, we know you don't care
what any of us think, SO let HISTORY also reflect that too!

Since SA does have alternatives, and i get more reasonable debate out of
talking to my rottweilers than you, this ends my waste of time.
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 14 Jul 2020, at 16:20, Ralph Seichter wrote:

> You obviously continue
> to ignore that white/black mean different things across the globe.

Not at all. This is exactly why their use when not referring to colors
is inaccurate and potentially confusing and/or annoying.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
* Bill Cole:

> On 14 Jul 2020, at 16:20, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>
>> You obviously continue to ignore that white/black mean different
>> things across the globe.
>
> Not at all. This is exactly why their use when not referring to colors
> is inaccurate and potentially confusing and/or annoying.

If you are confused and/or annoyed by the use of colours in compound
terms, that may be harsh for you personally, but please don't imply that
others are operating on a similar limited intellectual level. People
here can understand terms like "whitelist", and, given time, I am
confident you will get there too. Once that is achieved, and if you're
feeling especially adventurous, look up "Black Hand", which you might
consider even more confusing. :-)

Seriously, when will the clutching at straws end? There is no confusion
about the existing terminology, and you know that for a fact, just as
well as I do.

-Ralph
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
>
> Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
>
> You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> children.
>
> {^_^}

Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
being inclusive is so damned easy.

Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.

Thomas
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/10/20 12:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> Amen!
>
> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist) takeover.
> They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or blacklist, this is a
> revolution.
>
> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being
> dispossessed of your house and belongings under the supervision of the
> state, already going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>
> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a
> grip) don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads
> will be on the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>
> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.

Man, your tinfoil hat is on WAY too tight. Inclusivity is not Marxism,
Eric. It's being a decent human being. You should try it some time.

Thomas
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
Maybe my tinfoil hat is tight, but that is no sin. Slander is a sin, and
you are guilty of it.

To call someone a racist, or white privileged, because they use the term
'blacklist' or 'whitelist' is slander. When you demonize someone or some
people murder is not far behind.

This is nothing but a political move and you know it. You want to put it
in flowery language and tell us all how benevolent you are but in your
"inclusivity" you slander those who oppose you. Slanderers are so
VEEERRRRY inclusive.

You slander people who've done NOTHING wrong telling them they're "not
decent," "racists," "privileged white people," and wackos.

You're hypocrites. This is a very loving society you've put together.

You slander and your conscience doesn't even prick you. You're building
your utopia without God as He's obviously not in your conscience.

What is the promised utopia without God? The Marxist society.

Remember! In the Marxist society the "Useful Idiots" are first heads on
the chopping block. Then, you may wake up from your delusion, but it
will be to late.


On 7/16/2020 12:16 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
> On 7/10/20 12:07 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
>> Amen!
>>
>> This is not about racism this is about a Marxist (Socialist)
>> takeover. They don't care if you use the terms whitelist or
>> blacklist, this is a revolution.
>>
>> Soon, it will be as in Dr. Zhivago. You'll come home being
>> dispossessed of your house and belongings under the supervision of
>> the state, already going on as BLM freely loots and pillages.
>>
>> The "Useful Idiots" (not trying to be offensive, Kevin, but get a
>> grip) don't know that after the reorganization is done, their heads
>> will be on the chopping block as well...all planned in advance.
>>
>> These are sad days, woe is me if I don't speak out.
>
> Man, your tinfoil hat is on WAY too tight. Inclusivity is not Marxism,
> Eric. It's being a decent human being. You should try it some time.
>
> Thomas
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
And Linus Torvalds has announced this for the Linux kernel:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/13/linux_adopts_inclusive_language/

/Gaute G

tor. 16. jul. 2020 kl. 08:14 skrev Thomas Cameron <
thomas.cameron@camerontech.com>:

> On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
> >
> > Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> > Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
> >
> > You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> > children.
> >
> > {^_^}
>
> Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
> being inclusive is so damned easy.
>
> Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.
>
> Thomas
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On 7/14/20 5:55 AM, jdow wrote:
> I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick
> to technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.
>
> {o.o}

LOL - coming from the woman who has been outright insulting,
condescending, and dismissive both on- and off-list, this is a
*hysterical* request. Pot, meet kettle.

<eyeroll>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
I think this bit is finally dying down so I will merely point out as the
last, final nail in the coffin on all of this, that the majority of
people on both the Apache and the Linux projects (as well as the other
larger commercial entities like Google, etc. that are engaged in this)
are NOT "people of color" and this entire "movement" about changing
language boiled down is nothing more than yet another example of white
people deciding what is best for people of color - like has been going
on for centuries.

In short, doing this DOES NOT apply ANY more legitimacy to the majority
white on social issues that are in control of these projects than they
had before.

If the "votes" had been RESTRICTED to only people of color who were on
these projects - THEN they would have been legitimate. Of course the
majority white would have been embarrassed if the few people of color
members voted to change nothing so they absolutely weren't going to give
them a chance to do that.

Most people of color undoubtedly prefer that the members of these
projects stick to the technology and stay the fark out of the social
end of things.

Much like the Abortion debates were men have zero zilch business being
involved in the debate, whites really have zero zilch business being
involved in this discussion, either.

The Linux Torvalds thing is just the capstone of White Privilege played
out since HE IS WHITE.

Let me be the first white man to extend an apology to the few people of
color on these projects that we never actually bothered asking your
opinions on something we had no business mucking around with.

Ted

On 7/16/2020 1:49 AM, Gaute Gløersen wrote:
> And Linus Torvalds has announced this for the Linux kernel:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/13/linux_adopts_inclusive_language/
>
> /Gaute G
>
> tor. 16. jul. 2020 kl. 08:14 skrev Thomas Cameron
> <thomas.cameron@camerontech.com <mailto:thomas.cameron@camerontech.com>>:
>
> On 7/10/20 4:33 AM, jdow wrote:
> >
> > Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark?
> > Are we going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?
> >
> > You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you,
> > children.
> >
> > {^_^}
>
> Nah, you're clinging to old, exclusionary language and behavior when
> being inclusive is so damned easy.
>
> Shame on you, old-timer. Be better than this.
>
> Thomas
>
Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave [ In reply to ]
On Friday 17 July 2020 at 19:17:42, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> this entire "movement" about changing language boiled down is nothing more
> than yet another example of white people deciding what is best for people of
> color - like has been going on for centuries.

I applaud your comment, but I have to say that I think that where it matters
it is falling on deaf ears.

> Let me be the first white man to extend an apology to the few people of
> color on these projects that we never actually bothered asking your
> opinions on something we had no business mucking around with.

Me 2°


Antony.

--
Why are sea-faring brigands unable to calculate the circumference of a circle?
Because they guess the value of Pi.
(Sorry, this joke only really works well in German).

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