Mailing List Archive

On 20200713 20:10:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> +pmc
>> So you are saying that to save somebody a passing bad feeling you are
>> throwing people under the bus who would have to edit scripts and pray.
>> What is the difference if it happens today or a year from now? What
>> Good Engineering Reason Is Served By This Pain?
>
> Joanne,
>
> I have no interest in debating you on this topic.
>
> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is
> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>
> The technical lift for a user will be an SQL query / perl one-liners to
> search and replace your conf for things like whitelist_to to
> welcomelist_to.  I'm sure the dev/user mailing list can come up with
> some examples we can add to the UPGRADE file.  And if there are projects
> that build on SA, they a year plus of warning to implement the coming
> changes.  If you know of any programs/scripts that need help, point them
> here or the dev list.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM

user_prefs - every one will have to be edited to change names eventually. People
will bitch when they have to edit their files. They will bitch of "root" goes in
and edits the file for them (quite justifiably). Likely as not rules files will
have to be repaired.

Engineering that is politically driven tends to be long term disasters. I've
been around long enough to have seen it in action. Of course, that makes me an
old irrelevant fossil. So you get to discover the same mistakes I discovered
rather than benefit from inherited experience.

How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end
users' perspective? It's a nightmare for sysadmins, "Do I save the customer the
effort and modify HIS files or do I tell the customer she has to edit the arcane
files?" One way he is damned for invading privacy. The other way he is ROUNDLY
damned for making customer lives hardware. The change is not a long term win for
anybody but those imagining "blacklist" and "whitelist" are racially related.
Can't somebody just suggest they grow up? Or is that too good a technical
quality solution?

{^_^}

On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end users' perspective?

You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.

Stop it.



--
The cat turned and tried to find a place of safety in the suit's
breastplate. He was beginning to doubt he'd make it through the
knight.

On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product from the end users' perspective?
>
> You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one cares.
>
> Stop it.

Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?

I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At least have
the grace to admit your changes have zero technical merit, may cause pain at the
sysadmin and user level, and will happen anyway because of some nebulous social
goodness from it. (Hint, betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw
in more minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be
addressed at a social level.)

{^_^}

On 7/14/20 9:41 AM, jdow wrote:
> On 20200714 00:31:19, @lbutlr wrote:
>> On 14 Jul 2020, at 01:22, jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> How does this move improve the technical quality of the product
>>> from the end users' perspective?
>>
>> You've been told repeatedly that the decision has been made, and
>> you have ignored everyone and attacked anyone who has posted on
>> this any opinion that deviated from you WRONG opinion. No one
>> cares.
>>
>> Stop it.
>
> Am I being bullied because you cannot answer a simple question?
>
> I've been keeping my mouth shut until somebody aims a shot at me. At
> least have the grace to admit your changes have zero technical
> merit, may cause pain at the sysadmin and user level, and will happen
> anyway because of some nebulous social goodness from it. (Hint,
> betcha a nickle, my maximum bet, that it does not draw in more
> minorities to the development effort. OTHER problems need to be
> addressed at a social level.)
>

The sad thing about this is that while the changes may feed some egos
and make suits happy, the load is put on people who won't be able to
charge for the extra work. No client will be willing to cover these
costs. Tech workforce will be pulled off real work to massage some egos.
In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted
for. Thanks for that.

> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.? The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.? As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.? The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery.

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject,
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.

It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds of
hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can easily
add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be accounted
> for. Thanks for that.
>
>

i already opened a voting process here Marc...

LET's VOTE...

Would you like to have Apache Spamassassin change "WhiteList" and "BlackList" terms due to racism sensibilities?


-----Pedro
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020, 09:51:29 AM GMT+2, Marc Roos <m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:


> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.  The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin.  As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done.  The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.

Why is it you, who decides what is "racially-charged language", why
don't you wait for some university researches being done, to see what
"racially charged words" are, and what the implications are of using
"racially charged words."

Why not keep dual support, so people do not need to change their
configs? If the argument is not to use these terms, than a fresh install
would comply with this.

You are part of the Apache software foundation what is even their stance
on this subject? I can't imagine all projects are going to start
modifying code, whatabout standards?

The haste with making this decision only shows incompetence. The problem
with people in IT nowadays is that they decide on things they should not
decide on. It is like a dentist, starting to do brain surgery.

As I said your team is not qualified to make a decision on this subject,
because you lack information and education on this subject. Stick to
what you have been doing nothing more, nothing less.

It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling
someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If
something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any
obligations, that is na?ve perspective.
If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the
weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered
to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your
brains there, and take time to think things thru.




-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org]
Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
To: Axb
Cc: SA Mailing list
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds
of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can
easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes
out.

That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.

Regards, KAM


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be
accounted
for. Thanks for that.

Marc and others about voting,

The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee
aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
with a vote in early May by the PMC.

To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
that use them.

To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
Consider that when you post.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:

>
> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is
>
> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
> >
>
> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
> democratic.
>

Sir, you are being awfully rude and personal.

Regards
Brent

On 2020/07/14 10:56, Marc Roos wrote:
>
> It looks to me, like nobody is taking time to think. Just telling
> someone to fork code is rediculous and shows contempt for users. If
> something is opensource it does not mean you can act without any
> obligations, that is naïve perspective.
> If you decide to bring a kids soccer team for free to a match in the
> weekend. You also do not cancel last minute with the excuse, I offered
> to drive for free so I do not have any obligation. Start using your
> brains there, and take time to think things thru.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin A. McGrail [mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org]
> Sent: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 10:40
> To: Axb
> Cc: SA Mailing list
> Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
> Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave
>
> It is open source software, Axb. If you think it will take.you hundreds
> of hours unbilled for you to make the change on your system, you can
> easily add the code for the stubs and aliases back whenever 4.1 comes
> out.
>
> That is one of the great things about oss is you control your destiny.
> With aslv2 you are free to change the code, fork the code or even
> distribute the patch if you feel that strongly about it.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In my case it will be a few hundred hours which will not be
> accounted
> for. Thanks for that.
>
>
>
>

I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.



Van: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:03
Aan: Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu>
CC: users <users@spamassassin.apache.org>; jdow <jdow@earthlink.net>
Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



Marc and others about voting,



The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a vote in early May by the PMC.



To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that use them.



To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.



Regards, KAM



On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu <mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> > wrote:


> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

> being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
> SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
> done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>

If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
democratic.

On 20200714 02:03:06, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy.  Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project.  That is the project management committee aka
> the PMC.  Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

That raises a question that deserves an answer. Who votes on whether somebody
has earned merit? I suspect it is a closed system. {o.o}

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
> use them.

I agree with you here. I am trying to keep my arguments on the technical merit
of this change. I am trying to get them to reconsider their course of action. I
am trying not to lay into them the way I'd love to. And I believe I have slipped
a little. And I am extremely skeptical this change is going to make the project
"more inclusive" and draw in new developers, which I believe was a stated
non-technical aim.

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.  Consider that when
> you post.

That would be wise. But, be aware that this may be taken as a combative threat
by some people. Once you are trying to appease everybody you are doomed to
failure. You find yourself trying to second guess which way to jump regarding
how many of which people will be alienated. It is lose-lose. And it's
heartbreaking to watch.

> Regards, KAM

{o.o}

I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public
forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and
family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and
thousands of copies.

I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now
might regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though,
is written by people and not gods.

But I will stop posting about this. I, like others, am here to stop
spammers. I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.

Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl>
wrote:

> I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s
> poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming
> someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You
> have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.
>

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
archived mailing list and you
> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.

You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
disqualify your vote.

Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not
solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve
anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want.
The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they
see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and
will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.

{o.o}

On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you
>> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
>
> You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
> whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> disqualify your vote.
>

Yes, history is written by people, not one person. Nor should one person think (in my opinion) that they have a grasp at what will be perceived as the ‘wrong and right’ side of history while that history is still to be written.



And last of all, such standing points should never be used to try and persuade others to keep silent or keep their opinions to themselves. People have died for that right and as Obama said: I will fight to keep the right to speak your mind alive, even if that mind spews horrible lies about me (which is not exactly what he said but to that extend somewhere).



Van: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 11:55
Aan: Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl>
CC: m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu; users <users@spamassassin.apache.org>; jdow <jdow@earthlink.net>
Onderwerp: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave



I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.



I believe others who disagree with removing racially charged language now might regret being on the wrong side of recorded history. History, though, is written by people and not gods.



But I will stop posting about this. I, like others, am here to stop spammers. I wish I could drive all the energy here into that goal.



Regards, KAM

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 05:36 Guido Goluke, MajorLabel <info@majorlabel.nl <mailto:info@majorlabel.nl> > wrote:

I am not inclined to weigh in on the discussion since I think it’s poisoned already (from both sides) but what really triggers me is claiming someone who disagrees with you to be ‘on the wrong side of history’. You have an opinion, and are entitled to it: you’re no deity however.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty does not
> solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to solve
> anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the same.
> Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think they) want.
> The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for what they
> see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical failure and
> will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should think about it.
>
I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.

After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."

> {o.o}
>
> On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > archived mailing list and you
> >> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
> >
> > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to judge
> > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > disqualify your vote.
> >

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.
>
In my book, that is veiled intimidation.

Of course the License allows forking. We are an Apache Project and use the
ASLv2.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 06:43 Mauricio Tavares <raubvogel@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:07 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument. Getting nasty
> does not
> > solve technical problems, which we have here. Attacks are not going to
> solve
> > anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should be made just the
> same.
> > Then the open source developers will go off and do what they (think
> they) want.
> > The job is to lead them to thinking they want something different for
> what they
> > see as good reasons. Personally I believe the change is a technical
> failure and
> > will not provide the social results they seem to desire. They should
> think about it.
> >
> I would like to add that if this is perceived to cause technical
> issues certain members of the community believe outweighs any
> perceived non-technical benefits, these members have the right to
> check if the current spamassassin license allows for forking. And if
> that is the case, they have the right to fork it out.
>
> After all, someone said "A right delayed is a right denied."
>
> > {o.o}
> >
> > On 20200714 02:57:19, Marc Roos wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> > > archived mailing list and you
> > >> will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when you post.
> > >
> > > You must be feeling like a king in your little PMC? Who are you to
> judge
> > > whom is on the wrong side of history. No wonder people raise questions
> > > here, with someone like you deciding things. I think the PMC should
> > > disqualify your vote.
> > >
>

On 20200714 03:46:14, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:54 AM Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my warning. This is a public forum. The public including search engines and reporters and employers and family can read it. Minutes after a post is sent there are thousands and thousands of copies.
>>
> In my book, that is veiled intimidation.

None the less it is a fact. And that fact does tend to keep normally cool minds
from losing it. It's worth reminding ourselves, (looking annoyed, frustrated,
and perturbed in equal measures) especially in this time of people not forgiving
statements made 40 or 50 years ago as if people's opinions and behavior never
really changes with maturity. That isn't "right". It;s a fact we all must live
with until society matures a little more.

I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to
technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.

{o.o}

On 7/14/20 12:55 PM, jdow wrote:
> I gotta ask here, "Can't we all skip the ad hominem insults and stick to
> technical merits and goals involved in this change?" Please.

from where I sit, it will be very hard or there are no such merits / goals.

> Please Marc, stick to technical merit for your argument.

There is no technical discussion here afaik.

> Getting nasty does not solve technical problems, which we have here.
Attacks are not
> going to solve anything. Rational arguments may not. But, they should
be made just the same.

There is no attack. As I am not discriminating on the level of race
origin (not native english), I am also not discriminating on the level
of intelligence. Everyone is born as they are.

Kevin should be told that jumping to such conclusions as "being on the
wrong side of history" shows a lack of thinking. It is obvious that
nobody will be able to predict the future. Logics just dictates that one
could expect more of this type of reasoning, which makes me doubt PMC
decision making. This is not being nasty, this applying logics.

I am not judging this (I do not see myself qualified), that is why I
mentioned that research from universities by people with proper
expertise in this area should be left to do this. This is to me the only
sound solution in this matter.

The irony in this, is that this type of behaviour (not listening to
others, advising to fork, not taking time to really think about what you
are doing) looks to me very similar to how some of these police officers
are misbehaving.

Thus Kevin, PMC start thinking, and least of all, do not enforce your
'limited' view upon others. Maybe the apache software foundation can
start a project with Stanford or Columbia to really research how this
affects ethnic minorities. I doubt anyone will challenge that outcome.

The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

DAve

----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:

> Marc and others about voting,

> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
> vote in early May by the PMC.

> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
> use them.

> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
> you post.

> Regards, KAM

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu |
> M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.

I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language
was an added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially
charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major
bump would allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded
me to bring it up:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org>
wrote:

> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
>
> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to
> solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this
> issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for
> clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me
> this is not about a more clear and understandable naming convention. This
> is posturing and pandering.
>
> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
>
> DAve
>
> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> Marc and others about voting,
>
> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee
> aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April
> with a vote in early May by the PMC.
>
> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages
> that use them.
>
> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly
> archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history.
> Consider that when you post.
>
> Regards, KAM
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>
>>
>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is
>>
>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>> >
>>
>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>> democratic.
>>
>
>

No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.

If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be wrong.

DAve

----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org> wrote:

> I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language was an
> added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove racially charged
> language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since the major bump would
> allow for disruption. Further, this article was what reminded me to bring it
> up: [
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> |
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
> ]
> Regards,
> KAM
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> [ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail ]
> - 703.798.0171

> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich < [
> mailto:dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org | dgoodrich@greenfieldin.org ] > wrote:

>> The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?

>> I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go to solution
>> for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion on this issue and I even
>> understood, and agreed, that the change had merit for clarity. But, 'go along
>> or be on the wrong side of history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more
>> clear and understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.

>> I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.

>> DAve

>> ----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail < [
>> mailto:kmcgrail@apache.org | kmcgrail@apache.org ] > wrote:

>>> Marc and others about voting,

>>> The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are earned by
>>> demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project management committee aka
>>> the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on this change started in early April with a
>>> vote in early May by the PMC.

>>> To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will ignore messages that
>>> use them.

>>> To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a publicly archived
>>> mailing list and you will be on the wrong side of history. Consider that when
>>> you post.

>>> Regards, KAM

>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos < [ mailto:M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu |
>>> M.Roos@f1-outsourcing.eu ] > wrote:

>>>> > I never said it was being done for engineering reasons. The change is

>>>> > being done to remove racially-charged language from Apache
>>>> > SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of a movement
>>>> > built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how computing is
>>>> > done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the social benefits
>>>> > and your huffing is not going to stop it.


>>>> If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this group not
>>>> voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is being done?
>>>> Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community nor
>>>> democratic.