Mailing List Archive

Historical precedent, which if changed breaks too many very valuable tools.

That "get the fork out of there" anecdote is 100% true. I was a part of the
project using GRiD OS which used a lot of UNIX derived nomenclature. Fork was
one such word. The AF had EDS proof reading the documents. EDS had some er "new
hires" doing job. We had to patiently describe to them that "fork" was a term of
art and was embedded within the OS on which the project rode. It was a very
surrealistic fight. This blacklist/whitelist nonsense rivals it. Next we have
problems in the security world with "Black" and "Red" worlds? Get used to it
snowflakes. Fixing what works is as fine a way to introduce new faults in the
code as I can think of.

{^_^}


On 20200710 01:19:12, Paul Stead wrote:
> Let's look at other communities and their responses:
>
> https://github.com/rails/rails/issues/33677
> https://bugs.python.org/issue34605
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html
> https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435
> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=981129
>
> I see no problem in removing/changing the suggested words with negative connotations with alternatives - especially as the backwards compatibility (software hat on) is being built in.
>
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>
> Paul
>
> ?On 10/07/2020, 08:39, "Brent Clark" <brentgclarklist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good day Guys
>
> Lads you are being a tad silly.
>
> Various projects (and companies) are adopting and making the necessary
> change(s).
>
> You need to look and think bigger than the project itself. We don't want
> the SA Mailing list, the project, community to be seen as the project
> (or community ) that wont adapt to the times and be seen as insensitive.
> By not making the necessary change (i dont mean software change(s). I
> mean at oneself).
>
> I highly recommend, take a step back, and look at see whats happening.
> This is a good and right thing to do.
>
> Kevin, kudos to you for having the vision and will to drive this.
> You have my support.
>
> Thank you to all for your work and efforts.
>
> Regards
> Brent Clark
>
>
>
> On 2020/07/10 09:22, Axb wrote:
> > On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> >> This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think
> >> about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV
> >> series "The Blacklist"?
> >> And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
> >
> > wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
> >
> >>
> >> This is my opinion.
> >> On 10 luglio 2020 a 09:05:26, Kevin A. McGrail (kmcgrail@apache.org)
> >> scritto:
> >>
> >> Gents, while this may appear to be a response to racial tensions in
> >> the US of late, you might be surprised to learn that the project has
> >> been working on this type of change for quite some time.
> >>
> >> - We start using Blocklist at least as early as 2012 when I drafted
> >> this: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/DnsBlocklistsInclusionPolicy
> >>
> >>
> >> - And the vote on and discussion on this change was based on a UK
> >> article
> >> https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/ which
> >> I brought to the PMC on 4/5. We brought it for a vote on 5/3.
> >>
> >> So this isn't about US politics, it isn't rash and no it's not a
> >> joke. This is about doing the right thing and getting rid of racially
> >> charged language. I'd appreciate support in this change or at least
> >> if you can't say something nice or helpful, just keep it to yourselves.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> KAM
> >> --
> >> Kevin A. McGrail
> >> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:50 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> >> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
> >>
> >> On 7/10/20 8:42 AM, jdow wrote:
> >>> Be sure to purge every instance of "fork" in the code because it sounds
> >>> too close to the other F..K word. Get the fork out of there.
> >>> {O,o}
> >>> i.e are you guys being just a little stupid here?
> >>> On 20200709 21:00:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like
> >>>> whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826
> >>>>
> >>>> The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing
> >>>> whitelist_to
> >>>> Committed revision 1879456.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines,
> >>>> plugins and rule changes will all interweave.
> >>>>
> >>>> *IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the
> >>>> dev@spamassassin.apache.org <mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org>
> >>>> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.*
> >>>> *
> >>>> *
> >>>> Please let me know if you have any questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> KAM
> >>>> --
> >>>> Kevin A. McGrail
> >>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Paul Stead
> Senior Engineer
> Zen Internet
> Direct: 01706 902018
> Web: zen.co.uk
>
> Winner of 'Services Company of the Year' at the UK IT Industry Awards
>
> This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system.
>
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>
> Zen Internet Limited is registered in England and Wales, Sandbrook Park, Sandbrook Way, Rochdale, OL11 1RY Company No. 03101568 VAT Reg No. 686 0495 01
>

Besides, they are not black and Irish me is not white. We are all various shades
of beige. And I am a racist because I judge people on their own individual
actions, capabilities, and initiative. So surely that is being racist, at least
as seen by people who deep inside feel that the people who call themselves black
when they aren't (for the most part not even close) are really inferior. They
are admitting their own racism. I'm a capability-ist if anything.

{^_^}

On 20200710 01:30:27, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar@fantomas.sk> writes:
>
>>>>> Good day Guys
>>
>> On 10.07.20 09:45, Marc Roos wrote:
>>> You are being a tad discriminative, by assuming there are no ladies
>>> reading these messages. Which is highly inappropriate for the current
>>> thread. ;)
>>
>> I thought guys can also mean women, at least I've seen it being used that
>> way...
>>
>> (on old english, word 'man' stood for human, while 'wer man' and 'wif man'
>> stood for male and female human)
>
> I am reasonably sure that whitelist and blacklist have nothing to do
> with race, still it has to be changed. So it is a bit strange that you
> do not include the greeting part of your message in the inclusiveness.
>
>
> We should change the name of Serbia and go on a crusade to ban the
> word picnic.
> Maybe we should also change the terms upper and lower Egypt?
> And what about master degrees?
> And whitewashing, black eye, black Friday, black market, …?
>

Hi,

One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
compatibility.

While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.

But the realy main issue is compatibility.

Best regards,

Olivier
--

I have gentle fun in some of my code and note I have a pointer to my mommy. I
figure people can figure that out and get the chuckle. Of course, that's in my
own code for myself and maybe others if I toss it onto GitHub. I also stick in
the occasional Daddy. So it might even out. I don't obsess at that level. I just
try my level best, which is not as good as I'd like, to get it right.

{^_^}

On 20200710 01:35:16, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> As a woman engineer, retired, after many years in industry even "gents"
>> does not bother me. It goes with the territory. And if I had a dollar
>> for every time I heard "you guys" from a woman talking to other women
>> I'd be almost as rich as poor man Biden.
>>
>> Political correctness has no place in engineering. Clarity of
>> communications is a basis of the craft. When you disrupt it things
>> break. (eg Mars landers)
>
> I agree, but when you ban blacklist and whitelist, it is a bit
> inconsistent when you not also take care of the gender terms.
> To be honest, I think the gender terms have a better case to be
> changed as blacklist and whitelist.
>

On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.


SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally
confusing

On 20200710 01:53:30, Axb wrote:
> On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
>> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
>
>
> SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally confusing

Oh, you're supposed to ignore that pesky detail. It bothers the snowflakes.

(Rule number one: Do NOT wake Joanne up.)

{^_-}

On 20200710 01:46:55, Olivier wrote:
> Hi,
>
> One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
> renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
> see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
> compatibility.
>
> While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
> renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
> conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.
>
> But the realy main issue is compatibility.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Olivier
>

Quick, somebody - fork the project while they er "fork" it.

{^_-}

Not responding to any of the messages in particular, but it may be worth to weigh in.

dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org/> will do a rebranding to a socially less loaded terminology. We have not decided on a new branding yet and do not yet have a timeline (renaming a project with 14 years of history has some different implications than renaming in code / config).

Of course we will provide backwards compatibility on the „list.dnswl.org <http://list.dnswl.org/>“ and other names which are in use today for the coming years.

And yes, theoretically we could simply re-use the „w“ for „welcome“ :)

— Matthias, with the dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org/> hat on

On 2020-07-10 10:36, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:

> On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
>
>> the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
>> Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.

I agree that "welcome" is better than "allow", in as much as there are
actually three categories:
- blacklisted, i.e. rejected

- whitelisted, i.e. entitled to special treatment
- neither, i.e. allowed but not entitled to special treatment

But the whole thing is political correctness taken a step too far.
We have perfectly good, long-established terms that are well defined and
well understood, and that are derived from colour names, not racial
qualifiers.
If the inventors of the terms had called them redlist and greenlist,
would we be renaming them in case communists and environmentalists felt
offended? :-)

--
John

On 7/10/20 10:57 AM, jdow wrote:
> On 20200710 01:53:30, Axb wrote:
>> On 7/10/20 10:36 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>>> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
>>> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
>>
>>
>> SA doesn't block anything so a blocklist only makes stuff naturally
>> confusing
>
> Oh, you're supposed to ignore that pesky detail. It bothers the snowflakes.
>
> (Rule number one: Do NOT wake Joanne up.)
>
> {^_-}


When Joanne is awake is when this list gets really interesting...
Sometimes I'm homesick for a time in my SA life...

The renaming is only occurring in 4.0.0 codebase. We have no timeline for
when 4.0 will come out but there will be plenty of warning and UPGRADE
notices about the nomenclature changes which include backwards
compatibility with the old nomenclature but documented as deprecated. The
old nomenclature will not be removed for at least a year and only when we
jump to 4.1.0

NOTE: 3.4.5 which is being worked on is just a bug fix without nomenclature
changes. 3.4.5-pre1 came out a week or so ago and I'll look to build a
pre2 with some more minor fixes.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 4:58 AM jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 20200710 01:46:55, Olivier wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > One solution maybe to release the next version of SA with only the
> > renaming and no other change in the features. And give the users time to
> > see whether it works or if the renaming creates serious problems of
> > compatibility.
> >
> > While I find the words black/white list easy to use, I wou;ld not mind a
> > renaming if the new names are something common, like deny/allow. The
> > conned names block/welcome sound very artificial to me.
> >
> > But the realy main issue is compatibility.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Olivier
> >
>
> Quick, somebody - fork the project while they er "fork" it.
>
> {^_-}
>

An important part of etymology is the of use of words in the perspective of the modern world.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

Many of the discussions I've read on this have views on either side of the argument and tend to go on for a very long time.

Personally, it's a keyword that gets changed in code and aliased back for backwards compatibility - as long as it all works, that's ok with me.

Paul

?On 10/07/2020, 09:31, "Dan Malm" <dam@one.com> wrote:

On 2020-07-10 10:19, Paul Stead wrote:
> How would you explain to a 5 year old why being on a "blacklist" is seen as bad and a "whitelist" is seen as good?
>

If all of computer science are supposed to be understood by 5 year olds
we're going to have much bigger problems to explain than blacklists...
But sure, I'll give it a shot.

You're afraid of the dark are't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the_term
The term has nothing to do with race.

--
BR/Mvh. Dan Malm, Systems Engineer, One.com


--
Paul Stead
Senior Engineer
Zen Internet
Direct: 01706 902018
Web: zen.co.uk

Winner of 'Services Company of the Year' at the UK IT Industry Awards

This message is private and confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system.

Zen Internet Limited may monitor email traffic data to manage billing, to handle customer enquiries and for the prevention and detection of fraud. We may also monitor the content of emails sent to and/or from Zen Internet Limited for the purposes of security, staff training and to monitor quality of service.

Zen Internet Limited is registered in England and Wales, Sandbrook Park, Sandbrook Way, Rochdale, OL11 1RY Company No. 03101568 VAT Reg No. 686 0495 01

$0.02 from a woman of colour ...

I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ... more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.

Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1 cars black.

I'm sure the intent was positive though ...

Judy.

________________________________
From: Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgrail@apache.org>
Sent: 10 July 2020 05:00
To: SA Mailing list <users@spamassassin.apache.org>
Subject: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826] Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

IMPORTANT NOTICE

If you are running trunk, we are working on changing terms like whitelist to welcomelist and blacklist to blocklist.

https://bz.apache.org/SpamAssassin/show_bug.cgi?id=7826

The first test of this work is done with allowlist_to replacing whitelist_to
Committed revision 1879456.

If you are using trunk, there may be disruption since routines, plugins and rule changes will all interweave.

IF YOU ARE RUNNING TRUNK: I recommend you subscribe to the dev@spamassassin.apache.org<mailto:dev@spamassassin.apache.org> mailing list to stay abreast of the changes.

Please let me know if you have any questions!

Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On 20200710 01:59:10, Matthias Leisi wrote:
> Not responding to any of the messages in particular, but it may be worth to
> weigh in.
>
> dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org> will do a rebranding to a socially less loaded
> terminology. We have not decided on a new branding yet and do not yet have a
> timeline (renaming a project with 14 years of history has some different
> implications than renaming in code / config).
>
> Of course we will provide backwards compatibility on the „list.dnswl.org
> <http://list.dnswl.org>“ and other names which are in use today for the coming
> years.
>
> And yes, theoretically we could simply re-use the „w“ for „welcome“ :)
>
> — Matthias, with the dnswl.org <http://dnswl.org> hat on

Are we now going to be afraid of the unwelcome rather than the dark? Are we
going to shine a welcome on problems rather than light?

You guys are MAKING problems where they do not exist. Shame on you, children.

{^_^}

Blacklist means "protection", so it is something positive...
Whielist is for something wrong you cannot solve... 
so where is the problem?  
this is like the change from SystemV to SystemD    plesae stop creating new problems!!!!!!!!!
-----Pedro

Hey Pedro, I don't know for sure, I do not want to create a new problem,
but this yahoo, was this word not used during the railroad building to
encourage and push slaves to work harder? Would you mind using different
email address?




-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR PEOPLE RUNNING TRUNK re: [Bug 7826]
Improve language around whitelist/blacklist and master/slave

Blacklist means "protection", so it is something positive...

Whielist is for something wrong you cannot solve...

so where is the problem?

this is like the change from SystemV to SystemD plesae stop creating
new problems!!!!!!!!!

-----
Pedro

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 3:23 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/10/20 9:13 AM, Gianluca Furnarotto wrote:
> > This is foolish, we are losing control. I have nothing else to think about ... and the next one that needs to change its name is the TV series "The Blacklist"?
> > And the next would be to delete the word "black"?
>
> wanna bet there's plans to rewrite Tom Sawyer ?
>
Naah, just put it in the banned list.[1] Also, nothing like
a good wholesome book burning [2][3] to show you are hip and in sync
with modern thinking.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_books_banned_by_governments
[2] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/book-burning
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 5:12 AM hospice admin <hospice.it@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> $0.02 from a woman of colour ...
>
> I personally find stuff like this just a little bit patronising ... more of a matter of kicking the real problem into the weeds than actually doing anything practical to 'fix' it.
>
Thank you for pointing out this Emperor is butt-naked, and it
sure is not a pretty sight.

> Right up there with Mercedes decision to paint their $100 Million F1 cars black.
>
> I'm sure the intent was positive though ...
>
There is also this road which is amazingly well paved due to
this overflowing of good intentions.

> Judy.
>

>On Friday, July 10, 2020, 12:26:59 PM GMT+2, Marc Roos <m.roos@f1-outsourcing.eu> wrote:
>Hey Pedro, I don't know for sure, I do not want to create a new problem,
>but this yahoo, was this word not used during the railroad building to
>encourage and push slaves to work harder? Would you mind using different
>email address?


Agree Marc... indeed i will change my name becasue "Pedro" was the guy who negated Jesuschrist three times...
:-(
-----Pedro.

>On Friday, July 10, 2020, 10:10:20 AM GMT+2, Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

>so glad to read this... confirms my picture of you.

>now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer

OK... who starts??? :-)
once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...

------Pedro

On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 10:36 +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
> > the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> > Seriously.. you have more important issues...
>
> while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
> While people working with these terms know them, others may not so
> well.
>
Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
more meaningful pair of terms.

Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
server rather than slave and master. While I see no need to use 'slave'
term outside its historic and ongoing human designation, I do see a
continuing use for 'master', where it describes a unique object that is
frequently replicated of a person with extensive understanding of a body
of knowledge, e.g. master (of a sailing ship), master craftsman, or a
qualification: MSc, MA, etc.

Martin

On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 12:07 +0000, Pedro David Marco wrote:
> OK... who starts??? :-)
> once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...
>
That's already been sort of redefined: see https://xkcd.com/556/

Martin

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:16 AM Martin Gregorie <martin@gregorie.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2020-07-10 at 10:36 +0200, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> > On 10.07.20 08:50, Axb wrote:
> > > the US problems won't be fixed with renaming B&W lists.
> > > Seriously.. you have more important issues...
> >
> > while I am not a fan of renaming, I think that
> > "welcome list" and "block list" are more informational.
> > While people working with these terms know them, others may not so
> > well.
> >
> Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
> more meaningful pair of terms.
>
I do agree that accept works better than welcome here.

> Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
> server rather than slave and master. While I see no need to use 'slave'

I will argue that the master/slave connotation implies a
dependency: a slave DNS server will take updates pushed by the master.
Server/client connotation not only does not have that meaning (clients
can cheerfully ignore the server) but also then you have

1. Client DNS server and Server DNS server. Confused already or just
concerned about a call from the Redundant Ministry of Redundant
Redundancies?
2. A "server" is also someone who serves, same root as "servant." Soon
enough someone will say that also implies servitude and slavely.

> term outside its historic and ongoing human designation, I do see a
> continuing use for 'master', where it describes a unique object that is
> frequently replicated of a person with extensive understanding of a body
> of knowledge, e.g. master (of a sailing ship), master craftsman, or a
> qualification: MSc, MA, etc.
>
How long until we have to rename electrical and mechanical connectors?

> Martin
>
>
>

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:16:15 +0100
Martin Gregorie wrote:

>>I think that "welcome list" and " list" are more informational

> Still a bit woolly methinks. I think, acceptlist and rejectlist are a
> more meaningful pair of terms.

Welcome is the only one that is meaningful; accept, block and reject are
absolute terms for rules that only contribute to a score which in turn
is one factor in deciding whether to accept, reject/block or file to a
Spam folder.


> Similarly I, and the places I've worked, have always used client and
> server rather than slave and master.

In electrons and computing client/server and master/slave relationships
are different things. A server provides a service for clients, a master
controls slaves.

On 7/10/20 8:07 AM, Pedro David Marco wrote:
> >On Friday, July 10, 2020, 10:10:20 AM GMT+2, Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >so glad to read this... confirms my picture of you.
>
> >now back my pet project: rewrite Tom Sawyer
>
> OK... who starts??? :-)
>
> once Finished we can rewrite "El Quixote" as well...

Perhaps if we were still calling black people Injun Joe, people were
advocating for burning all previous copies, and scouring the Internet
for all previous occurrences of SpamAssassin and deleting them, you
might have a point.

Even Mark Twain by 1876 was becoming increasingly embarrassed by his
failure to question the racist status quo of the world in which he had
grown up.

Regards,
Dave




>
>
> ------
> Pedro