Mailing List Archive

On 11 Jul 2020, at 16:38, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
> yeah - by quoting your own idiocy - wow

I did no t want to call out any particular posting or poster.

> nobody right in his mind thins about black people in chanis when read
> something like this in a technical context: slave, master, blacklist,
> whitelist, blackhat, whitehat

Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?

For the record, I know *many* people who are perfectly sane who find using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.

But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are unimportant.

This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your line.

The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.


--
I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not
by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that because
you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when they've done
nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.

Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial
connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.

As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there
existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white
slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from
black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an
agenda to bring down white culture.

It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and to
impute guilt where there is none.

Again, grow up.

On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on anyone whose opinion differs from yours?
>
> For the record, I know*many* people who are perfectly sane who find using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply offensive.
>
> But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.
>
> And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore their feelings are unimportant.
>
> This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your line.
>
> The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.
>
>
> -- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

KGB agent Yuri Bezmenov in '85 (Idealogical Subversion & Demoralization):

"...to change the perception of reality of every American [and most
Europeans] to such an extent that despite the abundance of information
no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of
defending themselves.. and their country."

"The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information,
with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures. Even if I take him,
by force, to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp, he will
refuse to believe it until he is going to receive a kick in his fat
bottom. When the military boot crashes his, then he will understand. But
not before that. That is the tragedy of this situation of demoralization."

On 7/11/2020 5:39 PM, Eric Broch wrote:
> People are upset because they're being called racists when they're not
> by a sub-group who wants dominance and makes the accusation that
> because you're white you're a racist. Then our peers grovel when
> they've done nothing wrong. They've committed NO sin.
>
> Master/Slave wasn't thought up to OFFEND anyone nor to make any racial
> connotations. You are admitting guilt where there is no guilt.
>
> As I said earlier, every race has been enslaved at one point in there
> existence or another. Black slave masters sold black slaves to white
> slave traders, and yet, I hear no call for reparations for blacks from
> black slave masters. No, it's only a call to whites because there's an
> agenda to bring down white culture.
>
> It starts somewhere. The current battle is to remove our language and
> to impute guilt where there is none.
>
> Again, grow up.
>
> On 7/11/2020 5:23 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
>> Do you notice how your words are nothing more than an attack on
>> anyone whose opinion differs from yours?
>>
>> For the record, I know*many*  people who are perfectly sane who find
>> using the terms master and slave in a technical context to be deeply
>> offensive.
>>
>> But you denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.
>>
>> And you whine that nothing should be changed for other people because
>> it's fine with you and those people are lesser than you and therefore
>> their feelings are unimportant.
>>
>> This is exactly what I meant by, "it betrays at the very least a real
>> lack of empathy;" rather than make an effort to understand why people
>> have a difference of opinion it is simpler to attack them and
>> diminish them as having mental issues for daring to not toe to your
>> line.
>>
>> The decision has been made. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to
>> fork their own version of Spamassassin, bind, and other packages for
>> whatever reason they want, even the mostly trivially selfish of reasons.
>>
>>
>> -- I'm from a predominately black family --Eddie Murphy

Hi Yall,

I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to the
list.

Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and contribute
something useful.

First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change something
like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to do this and then,
years later, the mysql team wrote a better version. ...I wouldn't use their
database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres
was developed in the '90s - BUT, their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On
one of my boxes, it is provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch

I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did it
better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the util-linux
package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of many
distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch of file
names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day when my PATH
was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it either.

So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't have to be
that hard.

As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master / slave
weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those terms. In
my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do with slavery but
rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" & "master chef", or
command as in "ship's master," among a great many others nobody associates
with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer to the copies as replicants.
There are usually many good alternatives, we just have to be sensitive to
not unnecessarily use terms some might deem offensive. In my book "slave"
can be an unnecessary reminder of racial injustices, while at worst
"blacklist" evokes un-just job discrimination, and in any event, what
we're doing with a spam filter IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of
itself is NOT bad, only discrimination for un-just reasons. And
discriminating email based on who it came from is a perfectly valid reason
to discriminate. As jdow said, discrimination on the basis of a positive
or negative contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of
appearance isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might
discriminate on.

I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not broken (and
most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad for the project, not
good. (If you want to do something truly helpful about it, see my
recommendation below.)

Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world around
the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about background: My first
job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote (solo) the operating system
for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor back in the very late '70s and very
early '80s (real-time, general purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and
a CPU / hardware cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced
stuff for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been
employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and worked on
more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of experience in this
field.

When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the
idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by
humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every
language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe
desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is just
an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This usage
likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding of the
world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and there's a
natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone wants a
readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the copious works
of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with Bill Moyers
entitled "The Masks of God" - even better the book series of the same name
that goes back some 30,000 years - worth reading no matter your motive.)
EVERY CULTURE across the globe and throughout time can be easily shown to
use these same metaphors for good and bad, desirable and undesirable. And
I'm sorry but this really is an idiotic change to make to working code -
not that I have a vote.

Now, I can understand not wanting to offend the ignorant people who don't
understand. To my mind the answer is to inform them via a simple web link
to a source that can explain this to those concerned. This would be 1)
doing something about some of the pain of racism some may feel; 2) easy to
implement; 3) educational, and; 4) not consuming resources needlessly and
not adding the risk of new bugs. Why NOT do this instead?! Remember,
everybody's ignorant, just about different things is all! So, fine, we
just help teach them! ...If you feel you have to do something about this
particular problem, I would guess it's because you yourself feel guilty
for not doing anything about racism before - or not enough. This proposed
change to the code is a very poor choice of how to respond.

Now, after being annoyed at the knee-jerk over-reaction, I read ALL of the
comments and was both amused and saddened by what I found in the comments.
... Some people here I've come to REALLY like, and well, there just had to
be a RWNJ in the crowd, now didn't there? Really, park your politics at
the curb, nobody came here (joined the list) to listen to your right wing
politics, especially when it really is neither helpful nor accurate.
...The last serveral posts by the right wing political speaker were
particularly offensive and if I ran the list, I'd give that guy a "time
out." And that's ALL I'll say on the matter.

Now, keep on keeping on, folks,
RT

Thank you, you've made my point.

1) Dismiss what you don't like to hear and give me a timeout, that's mature.

2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
we've/I've done no such thing. The maintainers of the list have listened
to those who've turned something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into
something political and are now groveling to the political Marxists.
Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
What's next?

3) As I made clear to someone else who used ad hominem against me, I'll
debate you any time on any of these issues, and I'll do it offsite. But
like this other person you'll refuse because all you have is ad hominem.
It's what you're reduced to when you're position has been destroyed.


On 7/12/2020 10:47 AM, rtroy wrote:
>
> Hi Yall,
>
> I've been a member of this list for years but this is my first post to
> the list.
>
> Given the great many posts already posted, I'll at least try and
> contribute something useful.
>
> First, whenever script re-writing might become necessary to change
> something like, say "BumList" to "BanList", I had written a utility to
> do this and then, years later, the mysql team wrote a better version.
> ...I wouldn't use their database - I'm a Postgres guy, worked for
> Stonebraker at Berkeley when Postgres was developed in the '90s - BUT,
> their "replace" utility is fantastic. ...On one of my boxes, it is
> provided by: mysql-selinux-1.0.0-8.fc30.noarch
>
> I had also written my own file rename utility, but again, someone did
> it better. Apparently since 2011, rename has been a part of the
> util-linux package, available from Kernel.org, and already a part of
> many distributions. It's darned handy when you have to update a bunch
> of file names that match a pattern. And I only learned of it one day
> when my PATH was screwed up! Maybe some of you didn't know about it
> either.
>
> So, for the jdows of the world, keeping your scripts updated doesn't
> have to be that hard.
>
> As for master/slave, with Postgres' replication the terms master /
> slave weren't embedded into the project, though some people use those
> terms. In my book "master" is just fine - has nothing at all to do
> with slavery but rather skill, such as in the terms "chess master" &
> "master chef", or command as in "ship's master," among a great many
> others nobody associates with racism. But instead of "slave", I refer
> to the copies as replicants. There are usually many good alternatives,
> we just have to be sensitive to not unnecessarily use terms some might
> deem offensive. In my book "slave" can be an unnecessary reminder of
> racial injustices, while at worst "blacklist" evokes un-just job
> discrimination, and in any event, what we're doing with a spam filter
> IS discrimination. Discrimination in and of itself is NOT bad, only
> discrimination for un-just reasons. And discriminating email based on
> who it came from is a perfectly valid reason to discriminate. As jdow
> said, discrimination on the basis of a positive or negative
> contribution or capability is fine, but on the basis of appearance
> isn't, to name just a couple of attributes one might discriminate on.
>
> I STRONGLY agree with what jdow said about not fixing what's not
> broken (and most of her other comments). In particular, this IS bad
> for the project, not good. (If you want to do something truly helpful
> about it, see my recommendation below.)
>
> Jdow's got a few years on me but we probably entered the working world
> around the same time and it might be worth a brief comment about
> background: My first job in computer science was in 1978, and I wrote
> (solo) the operating system for the TANO Outpost's new 6809 processor
> back in the very late '70s and very early '80s (real-time, general
> purpose hardware control with multi-tasking and a CPU / hardware
> cooperation to provide virtual memory - it was pretty advanced stuff
> for the time). ...In my time in computing I've both employed and been
> employed by Turing Award winners (Jim Gray & Michael Stonebraker) and
> worked on more projects than I can even recall. So, I have a LOT of
> experience in this field.
>
> When I stumbled across all these posts, at first I was annoyed at the
> idiocy of it all: light and dark, white and black, have been used by
> humanity for as long as there have been records to follow, in every
> language, and even earlier than that if we look at art, to describe
> desirable and undesirable; anyone who has hurt feelings over this is
> just an ignorant person and they have misplaced sensibilities. This
> usage likely arises from the fears of our pre-scientific understanding
> of the world when there are things we can see and things we cannot and
> there's a natural fear of what we don't know & cannot see. (If anyone
> wants a readily accessible means of confirming this, please see the
> copious works of Joseph Campbell, especially in his video series with
> Bill Moyers entitled "The Masks of God" - even better the book series
> of the same name that goes back some 30,000 years - worth reading no
> matter your motive.) EVERY CULTURE across the globe and throughout
> time can be easily shown to use these same metaphors for good and bad,
> desirable and undesirable. And I'm sorry but this really is an idiotic
> change to make to working code - not that I have a vote.
>
> Now, I can understand not wanting to offend the ignorant people who
> don't understand. To my mind the answer is to inform them via a simple
> web link to a source that can explain this to those concerned. This
> would be 1) doing something about some of the pain of racism some may
> feel; 2) easy to implement; 3) educational, and; 4) not consuming
> resources needlessly and not adding the risk of new bugs. Why NOT do
> this instead?! Remember, everybody's ignorant, just about different
> things is all! So, fine, we just help teach them! ...If you feel you
> have to do something about this particular problem, I would guess it's
> because you yourself feel guilty for not doing anything about racism
> before - or not enough. This proposed change to the code is a very
> poor choice of how to respond.
>
> Now, after being annoyed at the knee-jerk over-reaction, I read ALL of
> the comments and was both amused and saddened by what I found in the
> comments. ... Some people here I've come to REALLY like, and well,
> there just had to be a RWNJ in the crowd, now didn't there? Really,
> park your politics at the curb, nobody came here (joined the list) to
> listen to your right wing politics, especially when it really is
> neither helpful nor accurate. ...The last serveral posts by the right
> wing political speaker were particularly offensive and if I ran the
> list, I'd give that guy a "time out." And that's ALL I'll say on the
> matter.
>
> Now, keep on keeping on, folks,
> RT

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:

...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

Isn't there a list moderator out there?

We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems
or politics.

is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>
> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>
> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>
> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.

It's Sunday, Moderators also have lives...
Stay inside, Stay safe.

On 7/12/20 8:10 PM, jason hirsh wrote:
> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
>
>> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>>
>> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>>
>> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>>
>> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.
>

On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, jason hirsh wrote:

> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe

I'd suggest that's an overreaction. This is an unusual storm on the list,
it will pass.

Unfortunately politics is somewhat unavoidable in discussing this topic,
because there is no *technical* reason for the change, and there are good
technical reasons for *not* making the change (at least, not
precipitously).

--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell is an "Aluminum Falcon"?? -- Emperor Palpatine
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
8 days until the 51st anniversary of Apollo 11 landing on the Moon

On 12 Jul 2020, at 14:06, rtroy wrote:

> Isn't there a list moderator out there?

Any moderation decisions are inherently few and slow. That is by design.
I believe there has been all of one (1) material moderation action in
the lifetime of this list, barring someone who continues to this day to
reply to the occasional message here offlist.

--
Bill Cole
bill@scconsult.com or billcole@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not For Hire (currently)

Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:

> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
> we've/I've done no such thing.

hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:

> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
> are now groveling to the political Marxists.

Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
poster's point.

> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
> What's next?

Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
you had brainwashed into you, but...

Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
war (William Lind).

So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
needs to be next.

If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.

plonk

rtroy skrev den 2020-07-12 20:06:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>
> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.

send it to /dev/null then, instaed of reply

> Isn't there a list moderator out there?

most people have hollidays right now

> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal
> problems or politics.

so stop self ?

if its get to much opensource debate anyone can unsubscribe

jason hirsh <hirshj@att.net> writes:

> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
>
>> On Jul 12, 2020, at 2:07 PM, rtroy <rtroy@sciencetools.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> On Sun, 12 Jul 2020, Eric Broch wrote:
>>
>> ...a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong on the list.
>>
>> Isn't there a list moderator out there?
>>
>> We don't need to read about the aforementioned poster's personal problems or politics.

I think there is, because several responses I send where I showed how
the things the 'enlightened' people accuse the 'extreme right' people
of is just looking into the mirror did not appear.
What I find strange, because in my -of-course biased opinion- where a
lot less shocking as published versions on both sides of the spectrum.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

Again, you've made my point.

All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.

You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.


On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:
> Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:
>
>> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
>> we've/I've done no such thing.
> hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:
>
>> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
>> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
>> are now groveling to the political Marxists.
> Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
> theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
> victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
> account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
> poster's point.
>
>> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
>> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
>> What's next?
> Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
> Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
> Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
> psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
> renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
> destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
> look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
> Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
> you had brainwashed into you, but...
>
> Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
> Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
> column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
> that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
> of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
> war (William Lind).
>
> So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
> here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
> needs to be next.
>
> If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.
>
> plonk
>

Jordan says to clean your room.

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>
> Again, you've made my point.
>
> All you have is a ad hominem and strawman arguments both logical fallacies.
>
> You can't debate so call for my removal from this list.
>
>
> On 7/12/2020 12:40 PM, micah anderson wrote:
>> Eric Broch <ebroch@whitehorsetc.com> writes:
>>
>>> 2) You accuse "the right wing[er]" of making this issue political when
>>> we've/I've done no such thing.
>> hilariously, you then go on to do exactly that:
>>
>>> The maintainers of the list have listened to those who've turned
>>> something benign (whitelist/blacklist) into something political and
>>> are now groveling to the political Marxists.
>> Maybe you don't see it, but your war against the imaginary conspiracy
>> theory of cultural marxism is not at all benign, or apolitical. Play the
>> victim all you want, but invoking the spectre of "cultural Marxism" to
>> account for things you disapprove of is just proving the original
>> poster's point.
>>
>>> Where does it stop. No one has answered my question. Now that
>>> whitelist/blacklist are gone why isn't Apache on the chopping block?
>>> What's next?
>> Depends if you want to haul out the frankfurt school, Marcuse, and
>> Adorno and the proletariat's desire to revolt, mix in a little bit of
>> Frued and claim that a mysterious group is using insidious forms of
>> psychological manipulation to chemtrail the 9/11 inside job. Clearly the
>> renaming of whitelist/blacklist is a Soros paid for plot intended to
>> destroy traditional Christian values and overthrow free enterprise, just
>> look at Clinton's emails...obvious link to pizza gate, and
>> Benghazi...who knows where you are going to stop this regurgitated drool
>> you had brainwashed into you, but...
>>
>> Personally, I think it needs to stop here, the theory of cultural
>> Marxism is blatantly antisemtic, drawing on the idea of Jews as a fifth
>> column bringing down western civilisation from within, a racist trope
>> that has a longer history than Marxism. Like the Protocols of the Elders
>> of Zion, the theory was fabricated to create and perpetuated a culture
>> war (William Lind).
>>
>> So where does it stop and what is next? It needs to stop right
>> here. Spewing anti-semetic bile on this mailing list is exactly what
>> needs to be next.
>>
>> If this guy isn't spam, I don't know what is.
>>
>> plonk
>>

> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
&
> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]

No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a
person or two who posted egregiously enough to be banned.

This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to debate
politics, go somewhere else. If you want to stop bastard spammers, this is
the place.

Regards,
KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 1:11 AM Axb <axb.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> I voted aginst it, loudly.
>
>
> On 7/11/20 4:35 AM, Noel Butler wrote:
> > Who is "we"
> >
> > Name the people who decided this pathetic communist dictatorship change
> > and who want to enforce this upon members of 160 odd other countries
> > just because theirs is fucked up?
> >
> > I want names
> >
> > I want to see the voting, come on lets be transparent, who are they, and
> > who are hte ones who declared this an absolute joke voted against it.
> >
> > I want to see the names of the people who dont care what their users and
> > contributors to the project think
> >
> > I await your silence
>

Noel, the vote was made by the Apache SpamAssassin Project Management
Committee which is the "we" in this context. The vote passed with only +1
votes. I will not disclose how any specific member voted except myself
where not only did I instigate the topic but voted +1. We certainly care
about our users / committers and the changes are backwards compatible until
at least Apache SpamAssassin 4.1's release.

Alex, the PMC vote thread at
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4a0b93d417d4fd36850eb86b4acb67bf6886e7b16de47d1756333873%40%3Cprivate.spamassassin.apache.org%3E
does not show you voting on the topic nor commenting on the results
threard. I only show you weighing in about 2.5 months later on bugzilla.

Regards,
KAM


--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171

"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

>> is there a moderator. or do i have to unsubscribe
> &
>> I think there is, because several responses I send [didn't show up]
>
> No, there isn't a moderator of this list except for new subscriptions and a person or two who posted egregiously enough to be
> banned.

Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
one you responded on would not have appeared either.


> This isn't a political forum, though. I'd suggest if you want to
> debate politics, go somewhere else.

I do not, but if blatant inaccuracies are spit out I sometimes
respond.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:

> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
>
Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply
don't have moderation and we use a mailing list software that you would
receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.

Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?

Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list?
Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN /
queue id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

Regards,
KAM

"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:
>
> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list? Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof
>
> If it is missing, can you provide the mail log entry showing the DSN / queue id. so I can open a ticket with ASF Infrastructure?

That is really strange then. I should have been to bed a few hours
ago. I will dive into it later.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

"Kevin A. McGrail" <kmcgrail@apache.org> writes:

> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Cecil Westerhof <Cecil@decebal.nl> wrote:
>
> Why did my replies disappear then? I am not banned, because then the
> one you responded on would not have appeared either.
>
> Not enough information for me to know but I can repeat that the we simply don't have moderation and we use a mailing list
> software that you would receive an email back if your post was moderated if we did.
>
> Did you post from an email that was subscribed to the list?
>
> Did you check lists.apache.org to see if your post made it to the list? Maybe you just didn't get a copy back.
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?users@spamassassin.apache.org:lte=1M:westerhof

I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
will look into it.

By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.

--
Cecil Westerhof
Senior Software Engineer
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cecilwesterhof

> Cecil Westerhof:
>
> I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
> did not receive myself. But at least one message is still missing. I
> will look into it.
>
> By the way. All my emails where send with the same account.

Cecil, I do not know what all you sent, but looking in my received mail for
this list and thread, I see the following timestamps I received with you
listed as the sender:

7/10 23:29
7/10 23:41
7/10 23:49
7/10 23:49
7/10 23:59
7/12 12:25
7/12 14:29
7/12 15:43
7/12 15:52 The mail I'm replying to

All times GMT-8 or mabye -9, depending on whether we are on standard or
daylight time. (I don't keep track, my clock does.)

Loren

jdow <jdow@earthlink.net> writes:

> I am still trying to figure out the rationale for forcing everybody out there
> with established lists of "whitelist_from_rcvd" and "blacklist_from_rcvd" to go
> out there and edit EVERYBODY's user_prefs or explain to users they must do this
> themselves. *I* can do this easily enough and call them foolist_from_rcvd and
> barlist_from_rcvd if needed. I am thinking if people with setups in small
> business offices that have to invade privacy or explain how so that user_prefs
> can be changed. And how about all the ancillary scripts that train spam that
> also have to be changed?
>
> This is something that is not broken, currently works, that some dolt is trying
> to fix. It's better you call that person a dolt than try to change the world and
> break everything. Making this change is dumb. It is counter-productive. It is
> even destructive. Just Say No.

That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
satify a need of renaming.

That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
break it on a whim.

Olivier

--

> I could not resist to take a quick peek. ;-) I think I saw a message I
did not receive myself.
> But at least one message is still missing. I will look into it.

Maybe you blacklisted some guy? ;)

On 7/13/2020 1:01 AM, Olivier wrote:
> That's exactely my point. SA is not just one stand alone software, it is
> deeply integrated into other pieces of software and lot of locally
> developped scripts and suff. And all this will have to be changed to
> satify a need of renaming.
>
> That is breaking things for the sake of breaking. And email server
> depends on enough number of pieces working well together, no need to
> break it on a whim.

Olivier and others, I am guessing you have not tested the trunk and the
changes for bz 7826 as backwards compatibility was handled as far as I
know.  There is no need to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.  We went
to trouble to make rules and configuration lines work with aliases and
feature checks so nothing breaks because of this.  Further, the project
is committed to the backwards compatibility for at least 1 year after
4.0.0 is released AND not until 4.1.0 is released.

Regards,

KAM

--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org

Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171