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I think this another good argument for holding Wikimania in a country like Thailand where I live, that has one of the most open travel doors in the world. The nationals of most countries can arrive here without any special documentation except of course a valid passport, and stay for at least two weeks. All they might be asked for on arrival is to show their return air ticket.

Kudpung

> On 2Jul, 2017, at 17:26, Jonathan Cardy <werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sadly not just Canada.
>
> I know the UK keeps the passport of applicants while they process the visa, and Georgians applying for a UK visa will have that processed in Ankara. Though the 8 weeks is slow for a visitor visa, not much chance to attend a funeral with that.
>
> On a more practical note, this is a recurring problem - we certainly had issues in London and I know there have been other venues where there have been problems. Would it be possible to find some venues that are generally open for visitors and rotate Wikimania between them? Or at worst rotate Wikimania between closed and open countries. We are a global movement and if some of us have visa issues it should be are a problem for all of us.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 2 Jul 2017, at 08:13, Mardetanha <mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com <mailto:mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> ?Canadian visas are kinda different from rest of the world, Iran, Azerbaijan and Georgia and turkey are considered in Visa center in Ankara.
>> Most Arabic countries are being considered in Amman Jordan.
>> some Caucasian are being considered in Moscow
>> and in Europe most are in VAC office in Paris?.
>> so depending on your country of origin your document might be reviewed and sent to other countries, another strange point is throughout the process, they keep your passport, so it means that for unclear time-frame you can not make any travels.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mardetanha
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in particular is pretty shocking to me.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com <mailto:arminehaghayan@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8, 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca <http://www.cic.gc.ca/> page it says that documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review. Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times can take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is made.
>>
>> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa deadline is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to now the Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk <mailto:andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>> wrote:
>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com <mailto:bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>> > these countries.
>>
>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>
>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>> greatest pride is
>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>> life and be part
>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>> religion you practice,
>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>
>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962 <http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk <http://pigsonthewing.org.uk/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Armine Aghayan
>>
>> Wikipedia Editor
>> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
>> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>>
>> +374 77209096 <tel:+374%2077%20209096>
>> +374 43053700 <tel:+374%2043%20053700>
>>
>> arminehaghayan@gmail.com <mailto:arminehaghayan@gmail.com>
>> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am <mailto:armine.aghayan@mtcit.am>
>> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am <mailto:armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am>
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>>
>>
>>
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Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


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Hi,

For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
(Five latest Wikimania hosts)
* Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
* Mexico: 67
* UK: 91
* Italy: 93
* Hong Kong: 144
(Some other countries mentioned here)
* Australia: 34
* Thailand: 78
* Israel: 96


Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.


Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.


Thanks
Mykola (NickK)

--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44


Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


--
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Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good
measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per
what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy
which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit
without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is
not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come
back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to
Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh
and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a
not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western
and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.

Best

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please
> look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check
> https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English)
> Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
> (Five latest Wikimania hosts)
> * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or
> equivalent
> * Mexico: 67
> * UK: 91
> * Italy: 93
> * Hong Kong: 144
> (Some other countries mentioned here)
> * Australia: 34
> * Thailand: 78
> * Israel: 96
>
> Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in
> the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And
> yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established
> Wikimedia chapter.
>
> Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly
> or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.
>
> Thanks
> Mykola (NickK)
>
> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
> ??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
> ????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> > a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

I would rather say it should not be the only measure. Of course Israel is a very special case (and so are countries whose governments ban Israeli citizens from entering their countries).

Other than that we have multiple measures of visa-friendliness:
* number of countries whose citizens do not need to apply for a visa
* availability of embassies abroad, particularly in countries that are not visa-free (say, Canada has an extensive network of embassies all over the world, including countries whose citizens need visas)
* visa application rejection rate
* frequency of denial of entry at border control.


I do not intend to promote any country, I just want everyone to be fair and do not call a country "visa-friendly" if in reality more than half of countries need visas there, and vice versa.
* A visa-friendly country looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Maldives
* A country that is not visa-friendly looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_North_Korea


Mykola (NickK)
--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
????: 3 ????? 2017, 00:17:31


Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.

Best


On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:

Hi,

For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
(Five latest Wikimania hosts)
* Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
* Mexico: 67
* UK: 91
* Italy: 93
* Hong Kong: 144
(Some other countries mentioned here)
* Australia: 34
* Thailand: 78
* Israel: 96


Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.


Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.


Thanks
Mykola (NickK)

--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44




Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


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Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
2008), without particular problems.

But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of
countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.

A.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for
> nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you
> prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that
> still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.
>
> Kudpung
> > On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> >> a country like Thailand where I live
> >
> > you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> > second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> > war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
> >
> > Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> > the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > DaB.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> > PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimania-l mailing list
> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points already defined in the previous emails.

One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that can manage Visas and related problems with visas.

So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this point.

Kind regards

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Asaf Bartov
Sent: 03 July 2017 04:43
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt, 2008), without particular problems. 

But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.

   A.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like  Thailand where I  live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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Number of countries not requiring a visa is a misleading metric, some visas are basically a tourist tax paid on entry to the country and some are a filter system to keep out anyone who might overstay and become an illegal migrant. That's before you get into the issue of some countries being much more important to us than others. For example India has several thousand times the population of Iceland.

We have had previous discussions on this over the years and I remember people giving figures as to the number of Visa refusals for Hong Kong, London and DC. All three were problems, and that's before you count the people who don't apply because they have good reason to believe they won't get a visa for that country.

I appreciate there are several other factors to worry about, we don't want Wikimania in a war zone, typhoon, or where there is a risk of wikimedians being arrested for their sexual orientation or views on religion, and we do need it to be close to a well connected international airport.

But it would be good to give more weight to the visa issue, and maybe invite some national tourist boards to pitch for a Wikimania with one of the criteria being their openness to such a global event.

Regards

Jonathan


> On 2 Jul 2017, at 23:17, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.
>
> Best
>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
>> (Five latest Wikimania hosts)
>> * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
>> * Mexico: 67
>> * UK: 91
>> * Italy: 93
>> * Hong Kong: 144
>> (Some other countries mentioned here)
>> * Australia: 34
>> * Thailand: 78
>> * Israel: 96
>>
>> Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.
>>
>> Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
>> ??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
>> ????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44
>>
>> Hello,
>> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> > a country like Thailand where I live
>>
>> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
>> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
>> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>>
>> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
>> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> DaB.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
>> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> _______________________________________________
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A country that almost everyone can go to is important

A country that most can afford to go to is important

A country where most can reasonably expect to be reasonably safe is important.

Without these the purpose of the event cannot be achieved

Safety is often a matter of choosing where you go and what you do. There is no utopia available. If you are so privileged that you can afford to go anywhere and don’t have visa problems anywhere, lucky you, but you don’t have to assume we are all in that situation.

Managing visa applications is the issue we are trying to deal with here (see the thread title), Advice that actually has some chance of practical applicability to this specific problem is welcome. For the rest please start another thread.

Personal prejudice against the local regime is a personal choice, and less important if the previous requirements are met.

Cheers,

Peter



From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ilario Valdelli
Sent: Monday, 03 July 2017 10:02 AM
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points already defined in the previous emails.



One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that can manage Visas and related problems with visas.



So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this point.



Kind regards



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Asaf Bartov <mailto:abartov@wikimedia.org>
Sent: 03 July 2017 04:43
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <mailto:wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt, 2008), without particular problems.



But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.



A.



On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


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<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender.

Mail priva di virus. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com

Yes I was wondering about that. Helping people with visa applications is
not a Wikimedia specialty (though I appreciate the work that has gone into
the meta Learning patterns and those Wikipedia pages on visa policy that
were linked earlier).

I am thinking that maybe we need local collaboration on visa issues through
our chapter representatives with e.g. local conference holders? Maybe in
local academia?

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ilario Valdelli <
ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

> And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points
> already defined in the previous emails.
>
>
>
> One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that
> can manage Visas and related problems with visas.
>
>
>
> So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this
> point.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Asaf Bartov <abartov@wikimedia.org>
> *Sent: *03 July 2017 04:43
> *To: *Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> <wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections
>
>
>
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.
>
>
>
> But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of
> countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.
>
>
>
> A.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
> Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for
> nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you
> prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that
> still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.
>
> Kudpung
> > On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> >> a country like Thailand where I live
> >
> > you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> > second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> > war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
> >
> > Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> > the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > DaB.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> > PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimania-l mailing list
> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
> priva di virus. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> <#m_-8796327857715561708_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.

that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
(especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
and other human rights.

And cs, just to quote enwp:

“Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
(dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
for a conference.

Sincerely,
DaB.

Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
of citizens/residents of those countries.

This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
Wikimania, let us stick to that please.

Thanks,
Dhaval

On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.

that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
(especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
and other human rights.

And cs, just to quote enwp:

“Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
(dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
for a conference.

Sincerely,
DaB.



_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
rejected.

Regards,

Jayanta Nath

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>
> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>
> Thanks,
> Dhaval
>
> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> > 2008), without particular problems.
>
> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
> and other human rights.
>
> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>
> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>
> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>
> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
> for a conference.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 19:04 schrieb Dhaval S. Vyas:
> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests?

it was cs who tried to advertise a unfit country – where were you
„please stick to the topic“-mail then?

And sorry that telling the truth COULD hurt some feelings. There is this
arabic saying that you can’t carry the torch of truth through a throng
without burning some beards.

And no, you don’t need to answer. Learning that some people in the
movements support dictatorships was bad enough for this week.

Sincerely,
DaB.

Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?

On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
rejected.

Regards,

Jayanta Nath

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>
> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>
> Thanks,
> Dhaval
>
> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> > 2008), without particular problems.
>
> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
> and other human rights.
>
> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>
> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>
> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>
> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
> for a conference.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
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It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
*and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making
good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.

Dear all,

Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the
future what could be done.

1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community.
Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other
huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from
the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations
between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever).
Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's
result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be
considered as a plus for this bid.
2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local authorities
the list of all participants who will participate at event and make sure
that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and this
lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy. Maybe it
is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should take care
on ability of their guests to visit the country,
3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I
understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed
event, and for future events as well.

Regards,
Levon Azizian
Wikimedia Ukraine

2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell <hjmwiki@gmail.com>:

> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
> visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
> rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
> *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
> infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
> people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making
> good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS/Wikimania_scholars#2017_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships>
table with
visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?


On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:

> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
> rejected.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jayanta Nath
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>
>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dhaval
>>
>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>
>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>> and other human rights.
>>
>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>
>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>
>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>
>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>> for a conference.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> DaB.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Thanks & Regards,
Shanmugam Pachamuthu.

Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).

If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the proper
privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.

Lodewijk

On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <shanmugamp7@gmail.com>
wrote:

> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS/Wikimania_scholars#2017_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships> table with
> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>> rejected.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jayanta Nath
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>
>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dhaval
>>>
>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>> (Egypt,
>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>
>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>> and other human rights.
>>>
>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>
>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>
>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>
>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>> for a conference.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> DaB.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

I support what Lodewijk told. This information may be collected only by WMF
staff who signed a contest that this info will not be shared with anyone,
otherwise than just statistics without personification. Personal data
protection is a very important issue.

Levon

2017-07-04 15:41 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>:

> Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
> hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).
>
> If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the
> proper privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <
> shanmugamp7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS/Wikimania_scholars#2017_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships> table with
>> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>>> rejected.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>>
>>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this
>>>> year's Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dhaval
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>>> (Egypt,
>>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>>
>>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>>> and other human rights.
>>>>
>>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>>
>>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>>
>>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>>
>>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>>> for a conference.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> DaB.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

I think WMF should already have this information. maybe we can ask them to
publish country wise anonymous data or something alike.

I agree that it's privacy sensitive data, maybe not a good idea to publish
along with username but for most of the visa applications we have to
publish our previous visa rejections, so it might not hurt other country
visa applications.

On 04-Jul-2017 6:12 PM, "Lodewijk" <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> wrote:

Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).

If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the proper
privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.

Lodewijk

On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <shanmugamp7@gmail.com>
wrote:

> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS/Wikimania_scholars#2017_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships> table with
> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>> rejected.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jayanta Nath
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>
>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dhaval
>>>
>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>> (Egypt,
>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>
>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>> and other human rights.
>>>
>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>
>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>
>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>
>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>> for a conference.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> DaB.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I was not asking wmf or anyone other than the applicant to publish the
details. If the applicant is ok then they can publish. Again things that
you guys consider privicy sensitive may not be privacy sensitive to others.
It maybe a cultural difference or unawareness. For example Third question a
stranger asks you in my country would be what's your salary ;). So it's
upto the applicant.

On 04-Jul-2017 6:17 PM, "Levon Azizian" <levonazizian@gmail.com> wrote:

I support what Lodewijk told. This information may be collected only by WMF
staff who signed a contest that this info will not be shared with anyone,
otherwise than just statistics without personification. Personal data
protection is a very important issue.

Levon

2017-07-04 15:41 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>:

> Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
> hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).
>
> If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the
> proper privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <
> shanmugamp7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:TPS/Wikimania_scholars#2017_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships> table with
>> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>>> rejected.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>>
>>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this
>>>> year's Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dhaval
>>>>
>>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>>> (Egypt,
>>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>>
>>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>>> and other human rights.
>>>>
>>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>>
>>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>>
>>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>>
>>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>>> for a conference.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> DaB.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi Levin,

Of your three points:

1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very strong reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well during the organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will say that people ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If questions have not been asked recently we need to start asking them again ( I don't know if this was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of Wikimania bids and often ask about visas, I don't remember looking at the Montreal bid).

2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a scholarship. Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is going to come earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though it would help some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly we could offer scholarships now to next year's Wikimania to scholarship recipients who couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this is not a new problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the scholarship process forward for people coming from countries where visas are likely to be slow to get for the next Wikimania. That could mean two rounds of scholarship applications, one for one group of countries and a few months later for people from other countries. Not perfect but practical and probably helpful.

3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of number of non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy reasons we need to be very careful with any more detailed data, but that number should be known and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low on that list.


Regards

Jonathan


> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian <levonazizian@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the future what could be done.
>
> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community. Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever). Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be considered as a plus for this bid.
> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local authorities the list of all participants who will participate at event and make sure that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and this lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy. Maybe it is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should take care on ability of their guests to visit the country,
> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed event, and for future events as well.
>
> Regards,
> Levon Azizian
> Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell <hjmwiki@gmail.com>:
>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I think there is an impossible task have a country to host a Wikimania with
all the ideal conditions. For an example, Canada and Mexico for better or
worse share borders with US, and there are many geopolitical factors and
mutual agreements derived from States strong advocacy around migration,
travel regulations and such conditioning the visa procedures.

Many other factors of rejection unfortunately are strictly personal and not
attributable to local organizers or WMF as lack of proving of funds to face
an emergency, or evidence of "reasons" to come back to the origin country
as jobs, family or schools. Talking with Foreign Affairs officials in
Mexico in 2015, I know that they aware about people in the past abused of
the attendance to (real or fake) international events to stay legal or
illegal in the country which invited them with good faith.

I know that is not the case of any colleague in the movement, but we need
to be aware about this strict rules and all the factors to consider around
the process and do our best to get people safe and present in Wikimania
cities.

Also I'm agree with Jonathan about kind of "next year" policy.

Best,




2017-07-04 10:45 GMT-05:00 Jonathan Cardy <werespielchequers@gmail.com>:

> Hi Levin,
>
> Of your three points:
>
> 1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very
> strong reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well
> during the organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will
> say that people ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If
> questions have not been asked recently we need to start asking them again (
> I don't know if this was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of
> Wikimania bids and often ask about visas, I don't remember looking at the
> Montreal bid).
>
> 2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty
> getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a
> scholarship. Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is
> going to come earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though
> it would help some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly
> we could offer scholarships now to next year's Wikimania to scholarship
> recipients who couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this
> is not a new problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the
> scholarship process forward for people coming from countries where visas
> are likely to be slow to get for the next Wikimania. That could mean two
> rounds of scholarship applications, one for one group of countries and a
> few months later for people from other countries. Not perfect but practical
> and probably helpful.
>
> 3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of number
> of non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy reasons we
> need to be very careful with any more detailed data, but that number should
> be known and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low on that list.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian <levonazizian@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the
> future what could be done.
>
> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community.
> Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other
> huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from
> the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations
> between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever).
> Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's
> result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be
> considered as a plus for this bid.
> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local
> authorities the list of all participants who will participate at event and
> make sure that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and
> this lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy.
> Maybe it is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should
> take care on ability of their guests to visit the country,
> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I
> understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed
> event, and for future events as well.
>
> Regards,
> Levon Azizian
> Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell <hjmwiki@gmail.com>:
>
>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
>> visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
>> rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
>> *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
>> infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
>> people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making
>> good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
*Iván Martínez*

*Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *

// Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
// Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org