Mailing List Archive

+1, I'm as well shocked to hear of so many unsuccessful visa applications this year.

Regards,
Leon

> Am 2017-06-22 um 11:23 schrieb Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>:
>
> Hi,
>
> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these countries.
>
> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>
> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost, while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on the pretext of being tourists.

It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the possibility to some refused scholarship applications.

Kudpung.
> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these countries.
>
> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>
> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
made.

That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a
visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
a big issue.

On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 -
> apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost,
> while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct
> flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the
> country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes
> it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on
> the pretext of being tourists.
>
> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>
> Kudpung.
>
> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
> these countries.
>
> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from
> India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from
> Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting.
> Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>
> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those
> countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a
> 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bodhisattwa
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more seriously.
Similar challenges were faced by participants from the Global South
selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto early this year.

This should inform future selection for all conference venues as it allows
for poor representation of the Global South at international conferences.

Cheers,



On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:

> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
> made.
>
> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a
> visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
> a big issue.
>
> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 -
>> apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost,
>> while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct
>> flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the
>> country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes
>> it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on
>> the pretext of being tourists.
>>
>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>>
>> Kudpung.
>>
>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>> these countries.
>>
>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from
>> India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from
>> Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting.
>> Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
>> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>
>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>> presented.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Bodhisattwa
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
*Felix Nartey*
*Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
*Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
*+233242844987 | +447440959477*
*Skype:Flixtey*

I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over year,
so that we know in comparison?

There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of them
is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries that
I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the organizers
sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their country, to get
some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to accomplish that.
But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not necessarily a bad
rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory serves me well,
WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example)

Lodewijk

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey <flixtey@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more seriously.
> Similar challenges were faced by participants from the Global South
> selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto early this year.
>
> This should inform future selection for all conference venues as it allows
> for poor representation of the Global South at international conferences.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
>> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
>> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
>> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
>> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
>> made.
>>
>> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain
>> a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
>> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
>> a big issue.
>>
>> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019
>>> - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost,
>>> while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct
>>> flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the
>>> country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes
>>> it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on
>>> the pretext of being tourists.
>>>
>>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
>>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>>>
>>> Kudpung.
>>>
>>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>
>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>
>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>> presented.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> President Wikimedia Australia
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Felix Nartey*
> *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
> *Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
> *+233242844987 <+233%2024%20284%204987> | +447440959477
> <+44%207440%20959477>*
> *Skype:Flixtey*
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance. As
much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough Visa
support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases could be
low.

Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and submit
all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the invitation
letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.

In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.

Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!

As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
the letter?

Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations that
pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead of
time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.

The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.

This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still
struggle getting accepted visa.

It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.

rex

PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
with the embassy.

On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
> these countries.
>
> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from
> India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from
> Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting.
> Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>
> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those
> countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a
> 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bodhisattwa
>

Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find out.
My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the past
4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)

Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol).
But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to
bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation,
i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.

To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
for a start.
The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
easy to overpromise and underdeliver.

What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
Wikimania location.
One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively expensive
to get to/stay in for another.
So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident of
this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.

Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I
can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)

Stuart

On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance.
> As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough
> Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases
> could be low.
>
> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and submit
> all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the invitation
> letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>
> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>
> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>
> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
> the letter?
>
> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations that
> pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead of
> time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>
> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>
> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still
> struggle getting accepted visa.
>
> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>
> rex
>
> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
> because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
> with the embassy.
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>> these countries.
>>
>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from
>> India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from
>> Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting.
>> Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
>> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>
>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>> presented.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

In 2013, a number of Wikimania attendees had their Hong Kong visas stuck in
the pipeline at the local Chinese embassies with no response to any
enquiry. A month before Wikimania, a local sponsor of Wikimania 2013
(DotAsia) agreed to be guarantor and negotiated directly with the
Immigration Department of Hong Kong to secure the visas. The visas were
then sent by registered mail to attendees. Much of that work involved me
personally going to the Immigration Department headquarters in Hong Kong
every working day for several weeks to get the paperwork right. In the end,
we saved about a dozen visa applications and only one person was unable to
come to Hong Kong due to visa issues.

I'm not sure about the Canadian system, but it is likely that Wikimedia
Canada and the Wikimania committee can request the visa-issuing authorities
in Canada to review the applications. The first steps would be to check who
the relevant authorities are, and to ask all applicants with rejected visa
applications to send the Wikimania organisers the details of rejection.

Re GN - Visa processes are usually the reverse of what you suggested.
Normally the host organisation issues their invitation, confirms travel and
accommodation arrangements, then the applicant goes to the relevant
embassy. It is not feasible to apply for a visa before one makes travel
arrangements.

Deryck

On 22 June 2017 at 11:13, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:

> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
> made.
>
> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a
> visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
> a big issue.
>
> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 -
>> apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost,
>> while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct
>> flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the
>> country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes
>> it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on
>> the pretext of being tourists.
>>
>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>>
>> Kudpung.
>>
>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>> these countries.
>>
>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from
>> India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from
>> Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting.
>> Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
>> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>
>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>> presented.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Bodhisattwa
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Well, the goal won't be to *influence* or whatnot. That isn't gonna work.
The goal is to provide extra details and answer questions that might come
up.

Some systems aren't entirely closed. From the outside, it looks closed, but
a closer look reveals there's the option for recognized organizations
(keyword is "recognized") to stretch a hand.

Not all embassies in varied countries run the same. But the question is,
has there been any attempt (stunt) of that sort pulled off ever?

And after spending a load ton of effort in organizing, if the
invitees don't get to come, does that not bring us to where we began?

It ain't an easy or going to be an easy task. However, trying to dodge that
also opens the opportunity for rejections easily.

Of course, it feels like a lottery. However, if there's anything one could
do to tip the chances of 'winning' the lottery a bit to the bright side,
won't that be a worthwhile effort, no matter how hard?

rex

On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk>
wrote:

> Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find
> out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the
> past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)
>
> Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol).
> But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to
> bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation,
> i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.
>
> To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
> beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
> sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
> for a start.
> The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
> hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
> process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
> easy to overpromise and underdeliver.
>
> What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
> developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
> Wikimania location.
> One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively expensive
> to get to/stay in for another.
> So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident
> of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.
>
> Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I
> can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)
>
> Stuart
>
> On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nkansahrexford@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance.
>> As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough
>> Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases
>> could be low.
>>
>> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and submit
>> all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the invitation
>> letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>>
>> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
>> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
>> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
>> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
>> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
>> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>>
>> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>>
>> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
>> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
>> the letter?
>>
>> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations
>> that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead
>> of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
>> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>>
>> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
>> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>>
>> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still
>> struggle getting accepted visa.
>>
>> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>>
>> rex
>>
>> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
>> because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
>> with the embassy.
>>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>
>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>
>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>> presented.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org');>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk
> wrote:

> Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find
> out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the
> past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)
>

That would be good for perspective - I don't know any better than that
there are complaints about scholarship rejections each year. Mexico may
indeed have been the 'easiest'. But of course, rejections don't only happen
to scholarship recipients, but also to self- or externally funded
participants. I can imagine you won't have access to that data unless it's
reported, though.


>
> Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol).
> But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to
> bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation,
> i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.
>
> To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
> beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
> sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
> for a start.
> The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
> hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
> process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
> easy to overpromise and underdeliver.
>
> What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
> developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
> Wikimania location.
> One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively expensive
> to get to/stay in for another.
> So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident
> of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.
>
> Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I
> can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)
>
> Stuart
>
> On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance.
>> As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough
>> Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases
>> could be low.
>>
>> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and submit
>> all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the invitation
>> letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>>
>> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
>> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
>> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
>> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
>> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
>> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>>
>> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>>
>> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
>> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
>> the letter?
>>
>> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations
>> that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead
>> of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
>> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>>
>> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
>> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>>
>> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still
>> struggle getting accepted visa.
>>
>> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>>
>> rex
>>
>> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
>> because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
>> with the embassy.
>>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>
>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>
>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>> presented.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Esino Lario too. 
There was a plan to transit people through Switzerland like second option using the Maastricht's agreement. As I know this option was not used.


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk> Date: 22/06/2017 13:24 (GMT+01:00) To: "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" <wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections
Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)

Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol). But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation, i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.

To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity for a start.
The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be easy to overpromise and underdeliver. 

What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a Wikimania location. 
One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively expensive to get to/stay in for another. 
So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.

Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)

Stuart 

On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com> wrote:
It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance. As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases could be low.
Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and submit all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the invitation letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter. 
Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just the letter?
Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event. 
The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still struggle getting accepted visa. 
It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away. 
rex
PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious with the embassy.
On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these countries.
This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.
Best wishes,

Bodhisattwa


_______________________________________________

Wikimania-l mailing list

Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

What problems are expected for middle eastern attendees to Cape Town? What countries passports are expected to have problems?

Cheers,

Peter



From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:14 PM
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are made.



That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future. Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been a big issue.



On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost, while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on the pretext of being tourists.



It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the possibility to some refused scholarship applications.



Kudpung.

On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi,

The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these countries.

This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.

Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented.

Best wishes,
Bodhisattwa

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l




_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l







--

GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Image removed by sender.

In addition, providing this *true assistance* won't be for *all* attendees.
In many cases, only a select few of the total attendees will have the
visa-related issues.

Thus, say out of 100 applicants, just less than 20 individuals might need
the assistance beyond the letter at their local embassies. And over and
over again, we know these countries that yearly present visa troubles for
applicants.

And since it can be relatively easier for individuals with relatively high
travel history to get visas, the actual people who might need this
dedicated assistance can drop further.

rex

On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Well, the goal won't be to *influence* or whatnot. That isn't gonna work.
> The goal is to provide extra details and answer questions that might come
> up.
>
> Some systems aren't entirely closed. From the outside, it looks closed,
> but a closer look reveals there's the option for recognized organizations
> (keyword is "recognized") to stretch a hand.
>
> Not all embassies in varied countries run the same. But the question is,
> has there been any attempt (stunt) of that sort pulled off ever?
>
> And after spending a load ton of effort in organizing, if the
> invitees don't get to come, does that not bring us to where we began?
>
> It ain't an easy or going to be an easy task. However, trying to dodge
> that also opens the opportunity for rejections easily.
>
> Of course, it feels like a lottery. However, if there's anything one could
> do to tip the chances of 'winning' the lottery a bit to the bright side,
> won't that be a worthwhile effort, no matter how hard?
>
> rex
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk');>> wrote:
>
>> Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find
>> out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the
>> past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)
>>
>> Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol).
>> But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to
>> bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation,
>> i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.
>>
>> To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
>> beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
>> sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
>> for a start.
>> The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
>> hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
>> process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
>> easy to overpromise and underdeliver.
>>
>> What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
>> developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
>> Wikimania location.
>> One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively
>> expensive to get to/stay in for another.
>> So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident
>> of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.
>>
>> Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I
>> can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application acceptance.
>>> As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's good enough
>>> Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF, rejected cases
>>> could be low.
>>>
>>> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and
>>> submit all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the
>>> invitation letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>>>
>>> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
>>> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
>>> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
>>> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
>>> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
>>> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>>>
>>> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>>>
>>> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
>>> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
>>> the letter?
>>>
>>> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations
>>> that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead
>>> of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
>>> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>>>
>>> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
>>> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>>>
>>> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will still
>>> struggle getting accepted visa.
>>>
>>> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>>>
>>> rex
>>>
>>> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
>>> because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
>>> with the embassy.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>>
>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>>
>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>>> presented.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>

Following the Stuart's commentary, for Mexico City the low rate of
rejection was not for free. I supposed my country was a friendly
destination because their history welcoming people from all over the world
until I was involved in the visa process for many wikimedians who faced
different kind of issues. So I was engaged with WMF's staff to provide any
evidence and documents to make fast responses to reduce the chances of
rejection. Among the issues we had:

- A really annoying insistence of the consular authorities of Mexico
rejecting documents in digital copies. We had to send many hard copies via
express mail services
- Consular officers insisted on proving in some way that the Wikimedia
Foundation has funds against possible contingencies of the attendees. This
was mainly because many of the officials who received the documents did not
know anyything about Wikipedia and its fame. I remember me talking on
conventional telephone several times from Mexico City to New Delhi to give
more information.
- Lack of Mexican embassies in all the attendees countries, so some people
needs to travel to other country to the nearest embassy to get visa, so,
chances of fail getting documents and doing procedures in other country
which is not yours is risky.

In any case, having prior time is the only antidote. Some situations can be
solved, but with anticipated time. Rules are rules and in consular
proceedings much more no matter the country where the event will held and
this is not really attributable to the people who are working supporting
the process doing their best.



2017-06-22 9:34 GMT-05:00 Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>:

> In addition, providing this *true assistance* won't be for *all*
> attendees. In many cases, only a select few of the total attendees will
> have the visa-related issues.
>
> Thus, say out of 100 applicants, just less than 20 individuals might need
> the assistance beyond the letter at their local embassies. And over and
> over again, we know these countries that yearly present visa troubles for
> applicants.
>
> And since it can be relatively easier for individuals with relatively high
> travel history to get visas, the actual people who might need this
> dedicated assistance can drop further.
>
> rex
>
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, the goal won't be to *influence* or whatnot. That isn't gonna work.
>> The goal is to provide extra details and answer questions that might come
>> up.
>>
>> Some systems aren't entirely closed. From the outside, it looks closed,
>> but a closer look reveals there's the option for recognized organizations
>> (keyword is "recognized") to stretch a hand.
>>
>> Not all embassies in varied countries run the same. But the question is,
>> has there been any attempt (stunt) of that sort pulled off ever?
>>
>> And after spending a load ton of effort in organizing, if the
>> invitees don't get to come, does that not bring us to where we began?
>>
>> It ain't an easy or going to be an easy task. However, trying to dodge
>> that also opens the opportunity for rejections easily.
>>
>> Of course, it feels like a lottery. However, if there's anything one
>> could do to tip the chances of 'winning' the lottery a bit to the bright
>> side, won't that be a worthwhile effort, no matter how hard?
>>
>> rex
>>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find
>>> out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the
>>> past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)
>>>
>>> Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol).
>>> But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to
>>> bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation,
>>> i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.
>>>
>>> To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
>>> beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
>>> sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
>>> for a start.
>>> The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
>>> hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
>>> process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
>>> easy to overpromise and underdeliver.
>>>
>>> What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
>>> developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
>>> Wikimania location.
>>> One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively
>>> expensive to get to/stay in for another.
>>> So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident
>>> of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.
>>>
>>> Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I
>>> can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>> On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application
>>>> acceptance. As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's
>>>> good enough Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF,
>>>> rejected cases could be low.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and
>>>> submit all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the
>>>> invitation letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>>>>
>>>> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
>>>> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
>>>> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
>>>> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
>>>> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
>>>> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>>>>
>>>> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>>>>
>>>> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
>>>> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
>>>> the letter?
>>>>
>>>> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations
>>>> that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead
>>>> of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
>>>> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>>>>
>>>> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
>>>> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>>>>
>>>> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will
>>>> still struggle getting accepted visa.
>>>>
>>>> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>>>>
>>>> rex
>>>>
>>>> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved just
>>>> because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got serious
>>>> with the embassy.
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>>>> presented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
*Iván Martínez*

*Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *

// Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
// Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org

I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
respective countries.

Jayanta Nath

My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.

On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
> respective countries.
>
> Jayanta Nath
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.

On 22-Jun-2017 8:59 PM, "Ivan Martínez" <galaver@gmail.com> wrote:

> Following the Stuart's commentary, for Mexico City the low rate of
> rejection was not for free. I supposed my country was a friendly
> destination because their history welcoming people from all over the world
> until I was involved in the visa process for many wikimedians who faced
> different kind of issues. So I was engaged with WMF's staff to provide any
> evidence and documents to make fast responses to reduce the chances of
> rejection. Among the issues we had:
>
> - A really annoying insistence of the consular authorities of Mexico
> rejecting documents in digital copies. We had to send many hard copies via
> express mail services
> - Consular officers insisted on proving in some way that the Wikimedia
> Foundation has funds against possible contingencies of the attendees. This
> was mainly because many of the officials who received the documents did not
> know anyything about Wikipedia and its fame. I remember me talking on
> conventional telephone several times from Mexico City to New Delhi to give
> more information.
> - Lack of Mexican embassies in all the attendees countries, so some people
> needs to travel to other country to the nearest embassy to get visa, so,
> chances of fail getting documents and doing procedures in other country
> which is not yours is risky.
>
> In any case, having prior time is the only antidote. Some situations can
> be solved, but with anticipated time. Rules are rules and in consular
> proceedings much more no matter the country where the event will held and
> this is not really attributable to the people who are working supporting
> the process doing their best.
>
>
>
> 2017-06-22 9:34 GMT-05:00 Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>:
>
>> In addition, providing this *true assistance* won't be for *all*
>> attendees. In many cases, only a select few of the total attendees will
>> have the visa-related issues.
>>
>> Thus, say out of 100 applicants, just less than 20 individuals might need
>> the assistance beyond the letter at their local embassies. And over and
>> over again, we know these countries that yearly present visa troubles for
>> applicants.
>>
>> And since it can be relatively easier for individuals with relatively
>> high travel history to get visas, the actual people who might need this
>> dedicated assistance can drop further.
>>
>> rex
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, the goal won't be to *influence* or whatnot. That isn't gonna
>>> work. The goal is to provide extra details and answer questions that might
>>> come up.
>>>
>>> Some systems aren't entirely closed. From the outside, it looks closed,
>>> but a closer look reveals there's the option for recognized organizations
>>> (keyword is "recognized") to stretch a hand.
>>>
>>> Not all embassies in varied countries run the same. But the question is,
>>> has there been any attempt (stunt) of that sort pulled off ever?
>>>
>>> And after spending a load ton of effort in organizing, if the
>>> invitees don't get to come, does that not bring us to where we began?
>>>
>>> It ain't an easy or going to be an easy task. However, trying to dodge
>>> that also opens the opportunity for rejections easily.
>>>
>>> Of course, it feels like a lottery. However, if there's anything one
>>> could do to tip the chances of 'winning' the lottery a bit to the bright
>>> side, won't that be a worthwhile effort, no matter how hard?
>>>
>>> rex
>>>
>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Stuart Prior <stuart.prior@wikimedia.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find
>>>> out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the
>>>> past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?)
>>>>
>>>> Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem
>>>> lol). But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard
>>>> to bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting
>>>> documentation, i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it.
>>>>
>>>> To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts
>>>> beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help
>>>> sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity
>>>> for a start.
>>>> The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from
>>>> hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support
>>>> process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be
>>>> easy to overpromise and underdeliver.
>>>>
>>>> What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our
>>>> developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a
>>>> Wikimania location.
>>>> One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively
>>>> expensive to get to/stay in for another.
>>>> So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not
>>>> confident of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive.
>>>>
>>>> Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and
>>>> I can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>> On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford <nkansahrexford@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is easy to conclude the location hinders visa application
>>>>> acceptance. As much as it appears to be so, I strongly believe if there's
>>>>> good enough Visa support and assistance from the Wikimania Team/WMF,
>>>>> rejected cases could be low.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously, an applicant should have documents intact and good, and
>>>>> submit all the necessary details the embassy wants, including the
>>>>> invitation letter. However, in some countries, that ain't enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 2012, the invitation letter I submitted to the consular at the US
>>>>> embassy here in Ghana, she didn't read, and I could see from her face how
>>>>> nonsense it looked to her. Heck, anybody anywhere could conjure such a
>>>>> sheet of paper with black ink on, any time any day. Plus, the consular had
>>>>> NO idea what Wikimedia was. There was no way I could explain what Wikimedia
>>>>> is in the few seconds I had in front of the teller-like counter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wiki? WikiLeaks? Duh!
>>>>>
>>>>> As much a mere letter of invitation is formal to some extent, to what
>>>>> extent is the WMF also willing to support visa applications outside just
>>>>> the letter?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not saying WMF should do exactly same, but I know other organizations
>>>>> that pick up the phone, and call the local embassy of the invitee way ahead
>>>>> of time to initialize conversations and to explain to *what extent* whoever
>>>>> they've invited fits in the about-to-happen event.
>>>>>
>>>>> The embassy in many cases, asks questions they won't otherwise ask the
>>>>> applicant, but would, to the inviting organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> This visa issue, until the WMF *truly assist*, some countries will
>>>>> still struggle getting accepted visa.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not easy, and it ain't something just a letter wipes away.
>>>>>
>>>>> rex
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: I know cases where rejected visa are reconsidered and approved
>>>>> just because the inviting organization literally stepped in, and got
>>>>> serious with the embassy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>>>>> presented.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Iván Martínez*
>
> *Presidente - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
>
> // Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
> moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
> // Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in
relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not
ask us to write anything to embassies.

I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of
countries.

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
User:Amqui


On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com>
wrote:

> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
> think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
> thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>
> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
>> respective countries.
>>
>> Jayanta Nath
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--

Jean-Philippe Béland

[image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
soutenant Wikipédia
Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
supporting Wikipedia
535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca

Wikimedia Canada was not the requester behind having Wikimania in Montreal,
so it cannot be blamed for that. A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now
defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and
they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this. As a chapter, we
are picking up some of the slack right now to ensure a smooth conference,
but I don't think it is fair to blame the chapter for not doing this.

Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
User:Amqui


On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
wrote:

> I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over
> year, so that we know in comparison?
>
> There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of
> them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries
> that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the
> organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their
> country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to
> accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not
> necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory
> serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example)
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey <flixtey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more seriously.
>> Similar challenges were faced by participants from the Global South
>> selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto early this year.
>>
>> This should inform future selection for all conference venues as it
>> allows for poor representation of the Global South at international
>> conferences.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
>>> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
>>> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
>>> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
>>> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
>>> made.
>>>
>>> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain
>>> a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
>>> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
>>> a big issue.
>>>
>>> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019
>>>> - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost,
>>>> while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct
>>>> flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the
>>>> country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes
>>>> it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on
>>>> the pretext of being tourists.
>>>>
>>>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
>>>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>>>>
>>>> Kudpung.
>>>>
>>>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>>
>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>>
>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>>> presented.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GN.
>>> President Wikimedia Australia
>>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Felix Nartey*
>> *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
>> *Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
>> *+233242844987 <+233%2024%20284%204987> | +447440959477
>> <+44%207440%20959477>*
>> *Skype:Flixtey*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--

Jean-Philippe Béland

[image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
soutenant Wikipédia
Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
<https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
supporting Wikipedia
535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca

Hi Jean-Philippe,

just to be clear: I'm not trying to blame WMCA for anything. 'being able to
accomplish that' includes having the expertise and manpower. It would be
great if you could help with visa issues, but given the situation, that is
just not always possible.

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
> wrote:

> Wikimedia Canada was not the requester behind having Wikimania in
> Montreal, so it cannot be blamed for that. A "Wikimania Montreal
> Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in
> Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this. As a
> chapter, we are picking up some of the slack right now to ensure a smooth
> conference, but I don't think it is fair to blame the chapter for not doing
> this.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over
>> year, so that we know in comparison?
>>
>> There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of
>> them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries
>> that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the
>> organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their
>> country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to
>> accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not
>> necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory
>> serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example)
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey <flixtey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more seriously.
>>> Similar challenges were faced by participants from the Global South
>>> selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto early this year.
>>>
>>> This should inform future selection for all conference venues as it
>>> allows for poor representation of the Global South at international
>>> conferences.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred
>>>> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape
>>>> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put
>>>> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some
>>>> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are
>>>> made.
>>>>
>>>> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first
>>>> obtain a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future.
>>>> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been
>>>> a big issue.
>>>>
>>>> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for
>>>>> 2019 - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low
>>>>> cost, while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by
>>>>> direct flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter
>>>>> the country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only
>>>>> makes it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country
>>>>> on the pretext of being tourists.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the
>>>>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kudpung.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>>> embassies from these countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4
>>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are
>>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship
>>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in
>>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even
>>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly
>>>>> presented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> GN.
>>>> President Wikimedia Australia
>>>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Felix Nartey*
>>> *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
>>> *Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
>>> *+233242844987 <+233%2024%20284%204987> | +447440959477
>>> <+44%207440%20959477>*
>>> *Skype:Flixtey*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
> soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
> supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hi,

I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA invitation?
In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada, otherwise it
would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation comes from
USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my knowledge in every
year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their invitation from hosting
countries.

Regards,
Jayanta

Hi Jayanta,

please be careful to make judgement calls without knowing all the facts.

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
> invitation from hosting countries.
>
> Regards,
> Jayanta
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hai,

My thought is - at first Canada is a tough country to get VISA for people
from Asia, Africa and other 3rd world countries. They like only people with
USA,UK Visa. Then the invitation problem it was from USA. No mention about
an organisation in Canada. Third the Canadian embassy is reject more visas
than accepting them from all the third world countries. So Canada is a very
bad choice for an international conference like Wikimania. Also Other
strict VISA Rule countries like USA, UK, China, Australia etc. Seeking some
friendly countries are good for better participation. My rejection reason
was current economic conditions and family ties. (I submitted my marriage
certificate and bank statement for that). After all we are staying in
Canada for a week and WMF is sponsoring us. But they still saying the
economic condition is no right.



Regards,

*Ranjith Siji*
Smashing Web
www.smashingweb.info <http://smashingweb.info>

Chat Google Talk: ranjith.sajeev Skype: ranjith.sajeev

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
> invitation from hosting countries.
>
> Regards,
> Jayanta
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Interesting.

You are right and you don't have to blame and there is no sense to
excuse the current rejection of visas.

Instead of speaking always of a division Global North and Global South
there should be a support for your action to save an important event
like Wikimania.

Kind regards


On 23/06/2017 16:24, Jean-Philippe Béland wrote:
> Wikimedia Canada was not the requester behind having Wikimania in
> Montreal, so it cannot be blamed for that. A "Wikimania Montreal
> Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have
> Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in
> doing this. As a chapter, we are picking up some of the slack right
> now to ensure a smooth conference, but I don't think it is fair to
> blame the chapter for not doing this.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org
> <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>> wrote:
>
> I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year
> over year, so that we know in comparison?
>
> There are of course many factors that go into venue selection -
> one of them is visa (another is security, political stability
> etc). The countries that I remember going relatively smoothly were
> the ones where the organizers sought a collaboration with the
> foreign affairs of their country, to get some help. I don't know
> if Wikimedia Canada was able to accomplish that. But it does mean
> that a general bad reputation is not necessarily a bad rejection
> rate for this particular conference. (if memory serves me well,
> WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example)
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey <flixtey@gmail.com
> <mailto:flixtey@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more
> seriously. Similar challenges were faced by participants from
> the Global South selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto
> early this year.
>
> This should inform future selection for all conference venues
> as it allows for poor representation of the Global South at
> international conferences.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra
> <gnangarra@gmail.com <mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that
> have occurred firstly with Montreal and next year with
> middle eastern attendees to Cape Town . Acknowledging
> that the change was because of the amount effort put in by
> unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing
> that some things need to be opened for community
> discussion before decisions are made.
>
> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants
> to first obtain a visa before being confirmed for the
> scholarships in the future. Perth/Australia is another
> place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been a big issue.
>
> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs@edubkk.org
> <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
>
> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok,
> Thailand, for 2019 - apart from its extremely
> tolerant social cultures and very low cost, while
> being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible
> by direct flights from most parts of the world.
> Almost everyone can enter the country for at least
> 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes it
> difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in
> the country on the pretext of being tourists.
>
> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this
> will open up the possibility to some refused
> scholarship applications.
>
> Kudpung.
>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com
>> <mailto:bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship
>> recipients from global south this month is the high
>> visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these
>> countries.
>>
>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from
>> Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from
>> Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients
>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa
>> rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping
>> for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but
>> may be news of more rejections are coming soon.
>>
>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly
>> country, and not in those countries where global
>> south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a
>> 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is
>> not truly presented.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> President Wikimedia Australia
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> <http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra>
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Felix Nartey*
> *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
> *Open Foundation West Africa
> <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
> *+233242844987 <tel:+233%2024%20284%204987> | +447440959477
> <tel:+44%207440%20959477>*
> *Skype:Flixtey*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> Wikimedia Canada Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre
> national soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
> supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
> <mailto:jpbeland@wikimedia.ca>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch



---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

I suggest you direct your questions to visas@wikimedia.org. Those requests
were managed by an international team. You will get better answers than on
this mailing list I think.

JP

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
> invitation from hosting countries.
>
> Regards,
> Jayanta
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Sorry to know that visa rejection news. As my thought visa process fully
depends on the embassy. It's not guaranteed any chapter even WMF to ensure
that If they provide invitation letter that means anyone got a visa!

I may share my last Wikimania Mexico experience at this point. Mexico
Embassy not available in Bangladesh and If we need Mexico visa we need to
visit India. But It's not good for me to go India for a visa so that I
follow different ways. I informed that If I have a valid USA visa then I
may enter Mexico. So I go to USA embassy and I submit all documents
provided by Wikimedia Mexico. I am lucky enough I got USA visa and attend
Wikimania Mexico. In the same time, one of my fellow Wikipedian go to India
for Mexico visa and got rejected. After back I suggest him to apply for the
USA via using same documents and submits. And finally, we both got USA visa
and attend Wikimania Mexico.

What exactly I point that, In my many International conferences attend
experience I see, Visa processing fully depend on the particular embassy.
Its totally depend on them if they provide visa or not. But the documents
may help to get visa easily.

Hasive

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
jpbeland@wikimedia.ca> wrote:

> I suggest you direct your questions to visas@wikimedia.org. Those
> requests were managed by an international team. You will get better answers
> than on this mailing list I think.
>
> JP
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
>> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
>> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
>> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
>> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
>> invitation from hosting countries.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jayanta
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
*Nurunnaby Chowdhury (Hasive) **:: **????????? ?????? (?????)*
User: Hasive <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hasive> |
GSM/WhatsApp/Viber: +8801712754752
?
Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia <http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Hasive>
Board Member | Wikimedia Bangladesh <http://www.wikimedia.org.bd/>
fb.com/Hasive <http://fb.com/NCHasive> | @nhasive
<http://www.twitter.com/nhasive> | www.nhasive.com

I have a few comments:
1)
We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
Jean-Philippe said:
"A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to
WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
chapter in doing this."
The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said
so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was
accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable.
Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong
local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.
2)
Wikimania should be a world conference of Wikimedians. One very important
aspect of a bid should be visa help. Some countries are shall we say
"visa-friendly" and some countries are not. If the event is to be held in a
country where it is difficult to obtain visas, the organizers must set up a
service to facilitate the visa process and obtain help from their local
government authorities. In Geneva, for example, the government has set up
an office to help foreign delegates get visas for international
conferences, both UN conferences and NGO conferences. I have met with them
a few times and they are really very helpful.
3)
The scholarships probably need to be awarded a bit sooner so that
recipients have enough time to go through the whole visa procedure. Most
countries require proof that the visitor has a return flight and that he
can cover his food and lodging expenses as well as his emergency medical
expenses. It has also been pointed out in this discussion that some
embassies are quite fond of old fashioned paper. That means snail mail,
pony express and all that. I works fine, it just takes time...

Gabriel

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Nurunnaby Hasive <nch@nhasive.com> wrote:

> Sorry to know that visa rejection news. As my thought visa process fully
> depends on the embassy. It's not guaranteed any chapter even WMF to ensure
> that If they provide invitation letter that means anyone got a visa!
>
> I may share my last Wikimania Mexico experience at this point. Mexico
> Embassy not available in Bangladesh and If we need Mexico visa we need to
> visit India. But It's not good for me to go India for a visa so that I
> follow different ways. I informed that If I have a valid USA visa then I
> may enter Mexico. So I go to USA embassy and I submit all documents
> provided by Wikimedia Mexico. I am lucky enough I got USA visa and attend
> Wikimania Mexico. In the same time, one of my fellow Wikipedian go to India
> for Mexico visa and got rejected. After back I suggest him to apply for the
> USA via using same documents and submits. And finally, we both got USA visa
> and attend Wikimania Mexico.
>
> What exactly I point that, In my many International conferences attend
> experience I see, Visa processing fully depend on the particular embassy.
> Its totally depend on them if they provide visa or not. But the documents
> may help to get visa easily.
>
> Hasive
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> jpbeland@wikimedia.ca> wrote:
>
>> I suggest you direct your questions to visas@wikimedia.org. Those
>> requests were managed by an international team. You will get better answers
>> than on this mailing list I think.
>>
>> JP
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
>>> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
>>> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
>>> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
>>> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
>>> invitation from hosting countries.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jayanta
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Nurunnaby Chowdhury (Hasive) **:: **????????? ?????? (?????)*
> User: Hasive <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hasive> |
> GSM/WhatsApp/Viber: +8801712754752
> ?
> Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia
> <http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Hasive>
> Board Member | Wikimedia Bangladesh <http://www.wikimedia.org.bd/>
> fb.com/Hasive <http://fb.com/NCHasive> | @nhasive
> <http://www.twitter.com/nhasive> | www.nhasive.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
wrote:

> I have a few comments:
> 1)
> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
> Jean-Philippe said:
> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to
> WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
> chapter in doing this."
> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said
> so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was
> accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable.
> Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong
> local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.
>

??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.

2)
> Wikimania should be a world conference of Wikimedians. One very important
> aspect of a bid should be visa help. Some countries are shall we say
> "visa-friendly" and some countries are not. If the event is to be held in a
> country where it is difficult to obtain visas, the organizers must set up a
> service to facilitate the visa process and obtain help from their local
> government authorities. In Geneva, for example, the government has set up
> an office to help foreign delegates get visas for international
> conferences, both UN conferences and NGO conferences. I have met with them
> a few times and they are really very helpful.
>

?The Foundation tried very hard to set something up with Canada for
trouble-shooting to no avail. I spent many hours and it wasn't possible.
A service agency was not a possibility. They have a new system and I have
to admit it is a confusing process for a lot of people. They follow very
much the model of the United States. It is the major reason why we
don't regularly hold Wikimanias in either of these countries. ( ?The last
one was 2012 in Washington, D.C. ) For the scholarship program: we had
relatively few people denied Visas when you look at the total attendance...
the highest number was in D.C (I don't have the exact number but was told
it was high); the next was London (9); Italy (2); Mexico City - 0; Hong
Kong - 1.

As others have indicated in this thread, there is a big effort with alot of
people involved in trying to delivery everything that is needed in a timely
manner.

And yes, Visa friendliness along with security/safety issues are important
criteria when deciding where to hold future Wikimania's.



3)
> The scholarships probably need to be awarded a bit sooner so that
> recipients have enough time to go through the whole visa procedure. Most
> countries require proof that the visitor has a return flight and that he
> can cover his food and lodging expenses as well as his emergency medical
> expenses. It has also been pointed out in this discussion that some
> embassies are quite fond of old fashioned paper. That means snail mail,
> pony express and all that. I works fine, it just takes time...
>

?We notified people end of April which gives them 3 months which is usually
sufficient (some countries won't accept applications before that time).
Most of our scholarship recipients have been very diligent in getting all
the paperwork and information in process shortly after that. We set up a
system this year that required people to send us proof that they had filed
by May 15. If they need paper, we send paper. We even support people
having to travel to other countries to apply. Even so, it is often the
individual embassies that are big part of the problem in securing approval.
?

>
>
> Gabriel
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Nurunnaby Hasive <nch@nhasive.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry to know that visa rejection news. As my thought visa process fully
>> depends on the embassy. It's not guaranteed any chapter even WMF to ensure
>> that If they provide invitation letter that means anyone got a visa!
>>
>> I may share my last Wikimania Mexico experience at this point. Mexico
>> Embassy not available in Bangladesh and If we need Mexico visa we need to
>> visit India. But It's not good for me to go India for a visa so that I
>> follow different ways. I informed that If I have a valid USA visa then I
>> may enter Mexico. So I go to USA embassy and I submit all documents
>> provided by Wikimedia Mexico. I am lucky enough I got USA visa and attend
>> Wikimania Mexico. In the same time, one of my fellow Wikipedian go to India
>> for Mexico visa and got rejected. After back I suggest him to apply for the
>> USA via using same documents and submits. And finally, we both got USA visa
>> and attend Wikimania Mexico.
>>
>> What exactly I point that, In my many International conferences attend
>> experience I see, Visa processing fully depend on the particular embassy.
>> Its totally depend on them if they provide visa or not. But the documents
>> may help to get visa easily.
>>
>> Hasive
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
>> jpbeland@wikimedia.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I suggest you direct your questions to visas@wikimedia.org. Those
>>> requests were managed by an international team. You will get better answers
>>> than on this mailing list I think.
>>>
>>> JP
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
>>>> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
>>>> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
>>>> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
>>>> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
>>>> invitation from hosting countries.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jayanta
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Nurunnaby Chowdhury (Hasive) **:: **????????? ?????? (?????)*
>> User: Hasive <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hasive> |
>> GSM/WhatsApp/Viber: +8801712754752
>> ?
>> Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia
>> <http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Hasive>
>> Board Member | Wikimedia Bangladesh <http://www.wikimedia.org.bd/>
>> fb.com/Hasive <http://fb.com/NCHasive> | @nhasive
>> <http://www.twitter.com/nhasive> | www.nhasive.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
eyoung@wikimedia.org
c. 510 701 8649

A lot of great suggestions and comments have been shared on here, but just
to add unto that.

One thing I know for sure that works is having an invitation letter from
say the WMF and the Local Organising Organisation. It is also very useful
to often include mayors of towns, states and cities where the conferences
will happen.

This is one the very reasons why ICANN conferences are usually successful
in terms of attendance, you get these two letters and an endorsement from
say a mayor and that carries a lot of weight. I know this was also done for
Wikimania Esino Lario and this could have accounted for its, low rejection
rates.

Cheers,

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:00 AM, Ellie Young <eyoung@wikimedia.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have a few comments:
>> 1)
>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>> Jean-Philippe said:
>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to
>> WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>> chapter in doing this."
>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said
>> so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was
>> accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable.
>> Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong
>> local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.
>>
>
> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
> the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
> truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
> agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
> recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.
>
> 2)
>> Wikimania should be a world conference of Wikimedians. One very important
>> aspect of a bid should be visa help. Some countries are shall we say
>> "visa-friendly" and some countries are not. If the event is to be held in a
>> country where it is difficult to obtain visas, the organizers must set up a
>> service to facilitate the visa process and obtain help from their local
>> government authorities. In Geneva, for example, the government has set up
>> an office to help foreign delegates get visas for international
>> conferences, both UN conferences and NGO conferences. I have met with them
>> a few times and they are really very helpful.
>>
>
> ?The Foundation tried very hard to set something up with Canada for
> trouble-shooting to no avail. I spent many hours and it wasn't possible.
> A service agency was not a possibility. They have a new system and I have
> to admit it is a confusing process for a lot of people. They follow very
> much the model of the United States. It is the major reason why we
> don't regularly hold Wikimanias in either of these countries. ( ?The last
> one was 2012 in Washington, D.C. ) For the scholarship program: we had
> relatively few people denied Visas when you look at the total attendance...
> the highest number was in D.C (I don't have the exact number but was told
> it was high); the next was London (9); Italy (2); Mexico City - 0; Hong
> Kong - 1.
>
> As others have indicated in this thread, there is a big effort with alot
> of people involved in trying to delivery everything that is needed in a
> timely manner.
>
> And yes, Visa friendliness along with security/safety issues are important
> criteria when deciding where to hold future Wikimania's.
>
>
>
> 3)
>> The scholarships probably need to be awarded a bit sooner so that
>> recipients have enough time to go through the whole visa procedure. Most
>> countries require proof that the visitor has a return flight and that he
>> can cover his food and lodging expenses as well as his emergency medical
>> expenses. It has also been pointed out in this discussion that some
>> embassies are quite fond of old fashioned paper. That means snail mail,
>> pony express and all that. I works fine, it just takes time...
>>
>
> ?We notified people end of April which gives them 3 months which is
> usually sufficient (some countries won't accept applications before that
> time). Most of our scholarship recipients have been very diligent in
> getting all the paperwork and information in process shortly after that.
> We set up a system this year that required people to send us proof that
> they had filed by May 15. If they need paper, we send paper. We even
> support people having to travel to other countries to apply. Even so, it
> is often the individual embassies that are big part of the problem in
> securing approval. ?
>
>>
>>
>> Gabriel
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Nurunnaby Hasive <nch@nhasive.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to know that visa rejection news. As my thought visa process fully
>>> depends on the embassy. It's not guaranteed any chapter even WMF to ensure
>>> that If they provide invitation letter that means anyone got a visa!
>>>
>>> I may share my last Wikimania Mexico experience at this point. Mexico
>>> Embassy not available in Bangladesh and If we need Mexico visa we need to
>>> visit India. But It's not good for me to go India for a visa so that I
>>> follow different ways. I informed that If I have a valid USA visa then I
>>> may enter Mexico. So I go to USA embassy and I submit all documents
>>> provided by Wikimedia Mexico. I am lucky enough I got USA visa and attend
>>> Wikimania Mexico. In the same time, one of my fellow Wikipedian go to India
>>> for Mexico visa and got rejected. After back I suggest him to apply for the
>>> USA via using same documents and submits. And finally, we both got USA visa
>>> and attend Wikimania Mexico.
>>>
>>> What exactly I point that, In my many International conferences attend
>>> experience I see, Visa processing fully depend on the particular embassy.
>>> Its totally depend on them if they provide visa or not. But the documents
>>> may help to get visa easily.
>>>
>>> Hasive
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
>>> jpbeland@wikimedia.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suggest you direct your questions to visas@wikimedia.org. Those
>>>> requests were managed by an international team. You will get better answers
>>>> than on this mailing list I think.
>>>>
>>>> JP
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath <jayantanth@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand that how WMCA directed by WMF about the VISA
>>>>> invitation? In visa application, there must have an invitation for Canada,
>>>>> otherwise it would reject. We are applying Visa to Canada, but invitation
>>>>> comes from USA. This is a foolish decision made by WMF. As per my
>>>>> knowledge in every year, every visa applicant for Wikimania, got their
>>>>> invitation from hosting countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jayanta
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Nurunnaby Chowdhury (Hasive) **:: **????????? ?????? (?????)*
>>> User: Hasive <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hasive> |
>>> GSM/WhatsApp/Viber: +8801712754752
>>> ?
>>> Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia
>>> <http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Hasive>
>>> Board Member | Wikimedia Bangladesh <http://www.wikimedia.org.bd/>
>>> fb.com/Hasive <http://fb.com/NCHasive> | @nhasive
>>> <http://www.twitter.com/nhasive> | www.nhasive.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ellie Young
> Events Manager
> Wikimedia Foundation
> eyoung@wikimedia.org
> c. 510 701 8649
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
*Felix Nartey*
*Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin*
*Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>*
*+233242844987 | +447440959477*
*Skype:Flixtey*

I believe this was not the best decision to make, I can understand handling
recipients' financials and some other logistics through WMF. But clearly
visas should have been handled by some entity in Canada. We ran into some
problems in 2008 (limited number as Egypt is a touristic country in the
first place), but the library of Alexandria was of a great help to issue
letters of invitation.
Sometimes it's not even up to the organizing committee. I was invited to
Taiwan, 2007 and couldn't go due to the diplomatic ties complications.
Overall, I don't mind having wikimanias in Canada and the US but I hope
that the visa application process for attendees would be given high
priority during bidding time.

Cheers,
Mido

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 17:20, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca>
wrote:

> As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in
> relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not
> ask us to write anything to embassies.
>
> I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of
> countries.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
>> think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
>> thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>>
>> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
>>> respective countries.
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
> soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
> supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
--
Mido

So an organisation P in country Q writes a letter of support to country R to grant a visa to person S from country T on the basis that organization P thinks that person S is actually the pseudonymous user U?

I am not surprised immigration officials don't find this an entirely compelling reason to grant a visa. WMF is not a Canadian organization, and it is not clear to me that WMF is actually in a position to confirm the real life identity of the user they want to attend in any case.

Kerry

Sent from my iPad

> On 24 Jun 2017, at 12:19 am, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca> wrote:
>
> As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not ask us to write anything to embassies.
>
> I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of countries.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>>
>>> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of respective countries.
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada, chapitre national soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada, national chapter supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

So an organisation P in country Q writes a letter of support to country R
to grant a visa to person S from country T on the basis that organization P
thinks that person S is actually the pseudonymous user U?

++ this is the big issue.

On 24-Jun-2017 6:58 AM, "Kerry Raymond" <kerry.raymond@gmail.com> wrote:

> So an organisation P in country Q writes a letter of support to country R
> to grant a visa to person S from country T on the basis that organization P
> thinks that person S is actually the pseudonymous user U?
>
> I am not surprised immigration officials don't find this an entirely
> compelling reason to grant a visa. WMF is not a Canadian organization, and
> it is not clear to me that WMF is actually in a position to confirm the
> real life identity of the user they want to attend in any case.
>
> Kerry
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 24 Jun 2017, at 12:19 am, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca>
> wrote:
>
> As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in
> relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not
> ask us to write anything to embassies.
>
> I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of
> countries.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
>> think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
>> thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>>
>> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
>>> respective countries.
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
> soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
> supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Writing as a Canadian, I can only apologize for the difficulty so many of
you are having in obtaining visas to this country. I am really looking
forward to welcoming many of you to the beautiful city of Montreal, and I
am devastated to read that so many people seem to be being turned down for
visas.

The decisions for locations for Wikimania are made about two years in
advance - which is actually pretty late for large international conferences
(most international organizations make these decisions 3-4 years in
advance). But even during the course of two years, some circumstances can
change significantly. I am aware that Canada has become more stringent in
handing out visas, as have many other countries in the past 2 years -
something that couldn't really be anticipated at the time the decision was
made. I don't have any good advice for any of you on this - while I live
in Canada, I'm not a member of either the Wikimania planning group or
Wikimania Canada, and I have no contacts in the federal government that
would be helpful in getting visas.

I am hoping that some magic can happen for you that will enable you to come
to Canada. We will all be losing the value of your company, and you will
be missed.

Risker/Anne



On 23 June 2017 at 21:28, Kerry Raymond <kerry.raymond@gmail.com> wrote:

> So an organisation P in country Q writes a letter of support to country R
> to grant a visa to person S from country T on the basis that organization P
> thinks that person S is actually the pseudonymous user U?
>
> I am not surprised immigration officials don't find this an entirely
> compelling reason to grant a visa. WMF is not a Canadian organization, and
> it is not clear to me that WMF is actually in a position to confirm the
> real life identity of the user they want to attend in any case.
>
> Kerry
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 24 Jun 2017, at 12:19 am, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca>
> wrote:
>
> As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in
> relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not
> ask us to write anything to embassies.
>
> I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of
> countries.
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> User:Amqui
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
>> think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
>> thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>>
>> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
>>> respective countries.
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe Béland
>
> [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
> soutenant Wikipédia
> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
> supporting Wikipedia
> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

I would think that once a location is chosen the first step would be for
the WMF to immediately open up discussions with the relevant Authority to
ensure that scholarships recipients have sufficient paperwork and time to
get approval as well as any assurances or processing options can be put in
place. If there is a limit put on the number of attendee then at least
that can be in the open so people know and if people already have visa that
enable them to attend they could at least present this as part of the
application.

Ideally an Affiliate would be the best situated to do such things but this
then raises issues about the status of User Groups which are designed not
to have the bureaucracy of chapters and therefore wont necessarily have the
same legal standing to support visa applications or even advocate for them.



On 24 June 2017 at 10:19, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Writing as a Canadian, I can only apologize for the difficulty so many of
> you are having in obtaining visas to this country. I am really looking
> forward to welcoming many of you to the beautiful city of Montreal, and I
> am devastated to read that so many people seem to be being turned down for
> visas.
>
> The decisions for locations for Wikimania are made about two years in
> advance - which is actually pretty late for large international conferences
> (most international organizations make these decisions 3-4 years in
> advance). But even during the course of two years, some circumstances can
> change significantly. I am aware that Canada has become more stringent in
> handing out visas, as have many other countries in the past 2 years -
> something that couldn't really be anticipated at the time the decision was
> made. I don't have any good advice for any of you on this - while I live
> in Canada, I'm not a member of either the Wikimania planning group or
> Wikimania Canada, and I have no contacts in the federal government that
> would be helpful in getting visas.
>
> I am hoping that some magic can happen for you that will enable you to
> come to Canada. We will all be losing the value of your company, and you
> will be missed.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 23 June 2017 at 21:28, Kerry Raymond <kerry.raymond@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So an organisation P in country Q writes a letter of support to country R
>> to grant a visa to person S from country T on the basis that organization P
>> thinks that person S is actually the pseudonymous user U?
>>
>> I am not surprised immigration officials don't find this an entirely
>> compelling reason to grant a visa. WMF is not a Canadian organization, and
>> it is not clear to me that WMF is actually in a position to confirm the
>> real life identity of the user they want to attend in any case.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 24 Jun 2017, at 12:19 am, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland@wikimedia.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> As per WMF directions, Wikimedia Canada was not involved in anything in
>> relations to visas. The WMF is taking care of that themselves. They did not
>> ask us to write anything to embassies.
>>
>> I am sorry that Canada has strict rules on visa requirements for a lot of
>> countries.
>>
>> Jean-Philippe Béland
>> Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
>> User:Amqui
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ranjith S <ranjith.sajeev@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I
>>> think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And
>>> thinking that is not a tourist friendly country.
>>>
>>> On 23-Jun-2017 12:52 AM, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think Wikimedia Canada not send any intimation to their Embassy of
>>>> respective countries.
>>>>
>>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jean-Philippe Béland
>>
>> [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada
>> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national
>> soutenant Wikipédia
>> Vice president — Wikimedia Canada
>> <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter
>> supporting Wikipedia
>> 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com
> <mailto:gabriel@thullen.com>> wrote:
>
> I have a few comments:
> 1)
> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
> Jean-Philippe said:
> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the
> request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not
> coordinate with the chapter in doing this."
> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is
> being said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that
> the Montreal bid was accepted in absence of the local chapter
> support. That is not acceptable. Looking back on the success of
> the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong local chapter and
> volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.
>
>
> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues
> with the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee
> (including yours truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved.
> I think everyone can agree how important it is for having the local
> chapters involved--- most recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of
> course South Africa coming up.
>

Hi Ellie,
This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee.

A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).

Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature*
local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.

But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact
on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
chapter.

Kind regards

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch



---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
case:

- Participants:
-- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
it.
-- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my
friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
-- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
positive feelings.
-- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
but let's hope to meet them soon.

-WMF:
-- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
(probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
-- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
easier.

Local chapters:
-- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of
visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it
perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.

Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.

Best


On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have a few comments:
>> 1)
>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>> Jean-Philippe said:
>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to
>> WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>> chapter in doing this."
>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said
>> so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was
>> accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable.
>> Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong
>> local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.
>>
>
> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
> the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
> truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
> agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
> recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.
>
>
> Hi Ellie,
> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee.
>
> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>
> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature* local
> organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>
> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact on
> a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
> fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
> chapter.
>
> Kind regards
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
> priva di virus. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> <#m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Hi Amir,

I found your experience with visa issue very edifying.
You can write a study case for this matter. Do not wait for opening centralized
place on meta to share what you know about how to get a visa.

Regards,
Zana

2017-06-24 14:47 GMT+02:00 Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com>:

> As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
> Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
> because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
> want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
> case:
>
> - Participants:
> -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
> should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
> people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
> This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
> remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
> chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
> it.
> -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my
> friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
> embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
> the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
> the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
> Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
> -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
> Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
> positive feelings.
> -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
> year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
> travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
> but let's hope to meet them soon.
>
> -WMF:
> -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
> support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
> to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
> and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
> (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
> documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
> need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
> rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
> people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
> -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
> multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
> very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
> easier.
>
> Local chapters:
> -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of
> visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it
> perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
> sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
> increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
> usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
> to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.
>
> Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.
>
> Best
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
> ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>
>> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a few comments:
>>> 1)
>>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>>> Jean-Philippe said:
>>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request
>>> to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>>> chapter in doing this."
>>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being
>>> said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid
>>> was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not
>>> acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe
>>> that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania
>>> event.
>>>
>>
>> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
>> the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
>> truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
>> agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
>> recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.
>>
>>
>> Hi Ellie,
>> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
>> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
>> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
>> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee.
>>
>> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
>> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
>> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>>
>> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature* local
>> organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>>
>> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact
>> on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
>> fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
>> chapter.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> --
>> Ilario Valdelli
>> Wikimedia CH
>> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
>> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
>> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
>> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
>> priva di virus. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>> <#m_-715280980185801926_m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hi Amir,

If you do write something up, please let me know so I can link from Wikimania 2018 site.

Cheers,

Peter



From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Zana Strkovska
Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2017 1:49 AM
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



Hi Amir,



I found your experience with visa issue very edifying.

You can write a study case for this matter. Do not wait for opening centralized place on meta to share what you know about how to get a visa.



Regards,

Zana



2017-06-24 14:47 GMT+02:00 Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com>:

As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this case:



- Participants:

-- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help. This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed it.

-- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and Italy for 8 days to make things legal)

-- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have positive feelings.

-- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event but let's hope to meet them soon.



-WMF:

-- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal, support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.

-- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way easier.



Local chapters:

-- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.



Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.



Best





On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:





On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com> wrote:

I have a few comments:
1)
We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania. Jean-Philippe said:
"A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this."

The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event.



??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.





Hi Ellie,
This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance, but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee.

A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).

Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature* local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.

But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a chapter.

Kind regards





--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371 <tel:+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>
http://www.wikimedia.ch




<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender.

Mail priva di virus. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I think the centralized place on meta is a great idea so we could put tips,
samples, and maybe even an 'advice line' for people who might be able to
help someone in a particular region. If someone wants to start this I'd
be happy to add, edit, etc.

Ellie


On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
> Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
> because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
> want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
> case:
>
> - Participants:
> -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
> should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
> people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
> This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
> remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
> chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
> it.
> -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my
> friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
> embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
> the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
> the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
> Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
> -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
> Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
> positive feelings.
> -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
> year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
> travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
> but let's hope to meet them soon.
>
> -WMF:
> -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
> support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
> to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
> and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
> (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
> documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
> need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
> rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
> people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
> -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
> multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
> very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
> easier.
>
> Local chapters:
> -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of
> visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it
> perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
> sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
> increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
> usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
> to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.
>
> Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.
>
> Best
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
> ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>
>> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a few comments:
>>> 1)
>>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>>> Jean-Philippe said:
>>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request
>>> to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>>> chapter in doing this."
>>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being
>>> said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid
>>> was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not
>>> acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe
>>> that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania
>>> event.
>>>
>>
>> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
>> the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
>> truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
>> agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
>> recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.
>>
>>
>> Hi Ellie,
>> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
>> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
>> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
>> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee.
>>
>> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
>> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
>> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>>
>> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature* local
>> organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>>
>> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact
>> on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
>> fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
>> chapter.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> --
>> Ilario Valdelli
>> Wikimedia CH
>> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
>> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
>> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
>> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
>> priva di virus. www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>> <#m_-1851108117246999399_m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>


--
Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
eyoung@wikimedia.org
c. 510 701 8649

The creation of one or more learning patterns could be good here. Please
see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns.

Pine


On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Ellie Young <eyoung@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> I think the centralized place on meta is a great idea so we could put
> tips, samples, and maybe even an 'advice line' for people who might be able
> to help someone in a particular region. If someone wants to start this
> I'd be happy to add, edit, etc.
>
> Ellie
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
>> Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
>> because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
>> want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
>> case:
>>
>> - Participants:
>> -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
>> should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
>> people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
>> This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
>> remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
>> chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
>> it.
>> -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my
>> friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
>> embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
>> the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
>> the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
>> Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
>> -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
>> Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
>> positive feelings.
>> -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
>> year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
>> travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
>> but let's hope to meet them soon.
>>
>> -WMF:
>> -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
>> support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
>> to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
>> and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
>> (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
>> documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
>> need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
>> rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
>> people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
>> -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
>> multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
>> very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
>> easier.
>>
>> Local chapters:
>> -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process
>> of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle
>> it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
>> sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
>> increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
>> usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
>> to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.
>>
>> Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.
>>
>> Best
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
>> ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a few comments:
>>>> 1)
>>>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>>>> Jean-Philippe said:
>>>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request
>>>> to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>>>> chapter in doing this."
>>>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being
>>>> said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid
>>>> was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not
>>>> acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe
>>>> that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania
>>>> event.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with
>>> the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours
>>> truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can
>>> agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most
>>> recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Ellie,
>>> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
>>> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
>>> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
>>> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary"
>>> committee.
>>>
>>> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
>>> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
>>> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>>>
>>> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature*
>>> local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>>>
>>> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact
>>> on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
>>> fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
>>> chapter.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ilario Valdelli
>>> Wikimedia CH
>>> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>>> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
>>> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
>>> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
>>> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
>>> priva di virus. www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>> <#m_6880580939877686418_m_-1851108117246999399_m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ellie Young
> Events Manager
> Wikimedia Foundation
> eyoung@wikimedia.org
> c. 510 701 8649 <(510)%20701-8649>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hello all,

While preparing the report for the last Wikimedia Conference (which we will
publish on Friday), Daniela Gentner, our logistics coordinator, has written
a detailed learning pattern about how to support participants in getting a
(German) Schengen visa for the Wikimedia Conference. While it is certainly
focused on German processes, many steps and tips are applicable by any
organizer in any country.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa

Maybe this is could be a good start to collect resources and material
around this topic for future events.

Happy reading & sharing,
Cornelius


On 27 June 2017 at 02:49, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> The creation of one or more learning patterns could be good here. Please
> see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Ellie Young <eyoung@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I think the centralized place on meta is a great idea so we could put
>> tips, samples, and maybe even an 'advice line' for people who might be able
>> to help someone in a particular region. If someone wants to start this
>> I'd be happy to add, edit, etc.
>>
>> Ellie
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
>>> Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
>>> because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
>>> want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
>>> case:
>>>
>>> - Participants:
>>> -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
>>> should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
>>> people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
>>> This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
>>> remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
>>> chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
>>> it.
>>> -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of
>>> my friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
>>> embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
>>> the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
>>> the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
>>> Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
>>> -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
>>> Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
>>> positive feelings.
>>> -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
>>> year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
>>> travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
>>> but let's hope to meet them soon.
>>>
>>> -WMF:
>>> -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
>>> support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
>>> to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
>>> and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
>>> (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
>>> documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
>>> need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
>>> rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
>>> people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
>>> -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
>>> multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
>>> very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
>>> easier.
>>>
>>> Local chapters:
>>> -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process
>>> of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle
>>> it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
>>> sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
>>> increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
>>> usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
>>> to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
>>> ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a few comments:
>>>>> 1)
>>>>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>>>>> Jean-Philippe said:
>>>>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request
>>>>> to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the
>>>>> chapter in doing this."
>>>>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being
>>>>> said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid
>>>>> was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not
>>>>> acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe
>>>>> that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania
>>>>> event.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues
>>>> with the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including
>>>> yours truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think
>>>> everyone can agree how important it is for having the local chapters
>>>> involved--- most recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South
>>>> Africa coming up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ellie,
>>>> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
>>>> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
>>>> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
>>>> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary"
>>>> committee.
>>>>
>>>> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
>>>> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
>>>> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>>>>
>>>> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature*
>>>> local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>>>>
>>>> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact
>>>> on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something
>>>> fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a
>>>> chapter.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ilario Valdelli
>>>> Wikimedia CH
>>>> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>>>> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
>>>> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
>>>> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
>>>> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
>>>> priva di virus. www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>> <#m_1267552695921599484_m_6880580939877686418_m_-1851108117246999399_m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ellie Young
>> Events Manager
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> eyoung@wikimedia.org
>> c. 510 701 8649 <(510)%20701-8649>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
Cornelius Kibelka
Program and Engagement Coordinator (PEC)
for the Wikimedia Conference

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de/

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207

today I found out another wikimedian from Iraq was also rejected because of
"purpose of trip", I highly believe this stem from our invitation letter
which is from WFM not a local entity. why should an American foundation
invite someone to Canada ?
it would be great if others could update us about their visa situation

Mardetanha

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Cornelius Kibelka <
cornelius.kibelka@wikimedia.de> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> While preparing the report for the last Wikimedia Conference (which we
> will publish on Friday), Daniela Gentner, our logistics coordinator, has
> written a detailed learning pattern about how to support participants in
> getting a (German) Schengen visa for the Wikimedia Conference. While it is
> certainly focused on German processes, many steps and tips are applicable
> by any organizer in any country.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,
> _Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_
> participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa
>
> Maybe this is could be a good start to collect resources and material
> around this topic for future events.
>
> Happy reading & sharing,
> Cornelius
>
>
> On 27 June 2017 at 02:49, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The creation of one or more learning patterns could be good here. Please
>> see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns.
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Ellie Young <eyoung@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the centralized place on meta is a great idea so we could put
>>> tips, samples, and maybe even an 'advice line' for people who might be able
>>> to help someone in a particular region. If someone wants to start this
>>> I'd be happy to add, edit, etc.
>>>
>>> Ellie
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one
>>>> Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other
>>>> because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I
>>>> want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this
>>>> case:
>>>>
>>>> - Participants:
>>>> -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you
>>>> should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of
>>>> people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help.
>>>> This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I
>>>> remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local
>>>> chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed
>>>> it.
>>>> -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of
>>>> my friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the
>>>> embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got
>>>> the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to
>>>> the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and
>>>> Italy for 8 days to make things legal)
>>>> -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention
>>>> Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have
>>>> positive feelings.
>>>> -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this
>>>> year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to
>>>> travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event
>>>> but let's hope to meet them soon.
>>>>
>>>> -WMF:
>>>> -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal,
>>>> support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going
>>>> to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said
>>>> and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place
>>>> (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa
>>>> documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends
>>>> need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets
>>>> rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of
>>>> people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others.
>>>> -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one
>>>> multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is
>>>> very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way
>>>> easier.
>>>>
>>>> Local chapters:
>>>> -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process
>>>> of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle
>>>> it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but
>>>> sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which
>>>> increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They
>>>> usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs
>>>> to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli <
>>>> ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen <gabriel@thullen.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a few comments:
>>>>>> 1)
>>>>>> We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania.
>>>>>> Jean-Philippe said:
>>>>>> "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the
>>>>>> request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate
>>>>>> with the chapter in doing this."
>>>>>> The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being
>>>>>> said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid
>>>>>> was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not
>>>>>> acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe
>>>>>> that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania
>>>>>> event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ??Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues
>>>>> with the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including
>>>>> yours truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think
>>>>> everyone can agree how important it is for having the local chapters
>>>>> involved--- most recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South
>>>>> Africa coming up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ellie,
>>>>> This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a
>>>>> decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance,
>>>>> but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature
>>>>> organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary"
>>>>> committee.
>>>>>
>>>>> A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a
>>>>> commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and
>>>>> perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal).
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature*
>>>>> local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work.
>>>>>
>>>>> But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the
>>>>> impact on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is
>>>>> something fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test"
>>>>> for a chapter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ilario Valdelli
>>>>> Wikimedia CH
>>>>> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
>>>>> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
>>>>> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
>>>>> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
>>>>> Tel: +41764821371 <+41%2076%20482%2013%2071>http://www.wikimedia.ch
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
>>>>> priva di virus. www.avast.com
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>>> <#m_185410550034025492_m_1267552695921599484_m_6880580939877686418_m_-1851108117246999399_m_3850020966839007458_m_-2762511510589227394_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ellie Young
>>> Events Manager
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> eyoung@wikimedia.org
>>> c. 510 701 8649 <(510)%20701-8649>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cornelius Kibelka
> Program and Engagement Coordinator (PEC)
> for the Wikimedia Conference
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> http://wikimedia.de
>
> Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
> Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> http://spenden.wikimedia.de/
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
<bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:

> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
> south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
> these countries.

Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:

“Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
greatest pride is
that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
life and be part
of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
religion you practice,
or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”

http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello all,

I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8, 2017
from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My documents
were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to Moscow on May
15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca page it says that documents for citizens
of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without transfer time). It's
already 8 weeks my documents are under review. Because of this uncertain
delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen Camp. On June 12, 2017 I
wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and have this reply: Your
application is under review. Processing times can take longer when
verifications are needed and no specific time for completion can be
confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is made.

On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa deadline
is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to now the
Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.


On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies
> from
> > these countries.
>
> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>
> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
> greatest pride is
> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
> life and be part
> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
> religion you practice,
> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>
> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/
> selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-
> canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--

Best Regards
Armine Aghayan

Wikipedia Editor
Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA

+374 77209096 <+374%2077%20209096>

+374 43053700 <+374%2043%20053700>


arminehaghayan@gmail.com

armine.aghayan@mtcit.am

armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am

Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are
having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely
newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in
particular is pretty shocking to me.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8,
> 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My
> documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to
> Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca page it says that
> documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without
> transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review.
> Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen
> Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and
> have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times can
> take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for
> completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is
> made.
>
> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa deadline
> is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to now the
> Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>> global
>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies
>> from
>> > these countries.
>>
>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>
>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>> greatest pride is
>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>> life and be part
>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>> religion you practice,
>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>
>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/select
>> ed-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-
>> celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
> Armine Aghayan
>
> Wikipedia Editor
> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>
> +374 77209096 <+374%2077%20209096>
>
> +374 43053700 <+374%2043%20053700>
>
>
> arminehaghayan@gmail.com
>
> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am
>
> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

?Canadian visas are kinda different from rest of the world, Iran,
Azerbaijan and Georgia and turkey are considered in Visa center in Ankara.
Most Arabic countries are being considered in Amman Jordan.
some Caucasian are being considered in Moscow
and in Europe most are in VAC office in Paris
?.
so depending on your country of origin your document might be reviewed and
sent to other countries, another strange point is throughout the process,
they keep your passport, so it means that for unclear time-frame you can
not make any travels.



Mardetanha

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are
> having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely
> newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in
> particular is pretty shocking to me.
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8,
>> 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My
>> documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to
>> Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca page it says that
>> documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without
>> transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review.
>> Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen
>> Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and
>> have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times
>> can take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for
>> completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is
>> made.
>>
>> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa
>> deadline is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to
>> now the Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>> global
>>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies
>>> from
>>> > these countries.
>>>
>>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>>
>>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>>> greatest pride is
>>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>>> life and be part
>>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>>> religion you practice,
>>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>>
>>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/select
>>> ed-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celeb
>>> rations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Mabbett
>>> @pigsonthewing
>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Armine Aghayan
>>
>> Wikipedia Editor
>> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
>> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>>
>> +374 77209096 <+374%2077%20209096>
>>
>> +374 43053700 <+374%2043%20053700>
>>
>>
>> arminehaghayan@gmail.com
>>
>> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am
>>
>> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

That makes it sound even worse (creepy even, given the 8 weeks and counting
time frame)

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Mardetanha <mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?Canadian visas are kinda different from rest of the world, Iran,
> Azerbaijan and Georgia and turkey are considered in Visa center in Ankara.
> Most Arabic countries are being considered in Amman Jordan.
> some Caucasian are being considered in Moscow
> and in Europe most are in VAC office in Paris
> ?.
> so depending on your country of origin your document might be reviewed and
> sent to other countries, another strange point is throughout the process,
> they keep your passport, so it means that for unclear time-frame you can
> not make any travels.
>
>
>
> Mardetanha
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are
>> having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely
>> newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in
>> particular is pretty shocking to me.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8,
>>> 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My
>>> documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to
>>> Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca page it says that
>>> documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without
>>> transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review.
>>> Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen
>>> Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and
>>> have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times
>>> can take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for
>>> completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is
>>> made.
>>>
>>> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa
>>> deadline is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to
>>> now the Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>>>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from
>>>> global
>>>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian
>>>> embassies from
>>>> > these countries.
>>>>
>>>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>>>
>>>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>>>> greatest pride is
>>>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>>>> life and be part
>>>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>>>> religion you practice,
>>>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>>>
>>>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/select
>>>> ed-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celeb
>>>> rations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andy Mabbett
>>>> @pigsonthewing
>>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Armine Aghayan
>>>
>>> Wikipedia Editor
>>> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
>>> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>>>
>>> +374 77209096 <+374%2077%20209096>
>>>
>>> +374 43053700 <+374%2043%20053700>
>>>
>>>
>>> arminehaghayan@gmail.com
>>>
>>> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am
>>>
>>> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

2017-06-22 13:57 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>:
>
> I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over
year, so that we know in comparison?
>
> There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of
them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries
that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the
organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their
country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to
accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not
necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory
serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example)
>

Heh, I'm not sure whether it was positive or negative :)

Jokes aside, this involved A LOT of work from the Haifa organizing team.
Many months before the event Wikimedia Israel people (not me) contacted the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, explained to them what kind of event this is,
and what kind of people come to it. The Ministry contacts were friendly and
cooperative and suggested a process and an invitation letter.

Then, when the actual event was coming closer (May–June or so), yours truly
spent about two weeks doing nothing but sleeping, eating, and helping
hundreds of people get visas. Luckily, I was employed very part-time back
then and I could easily afford to volunteer for this. I mostly followed the
process that the ministry suggested, but I also remember very-late-night
Skype calls with participants from faraway timezones who had trouble
filling forms (different forms in each consulate!) and writing special
invitation letters for participants that represents highly respected
international organizations. Days before the event I remember more
surprising international phone calls from my country's representatives in
consulates, airports, and border-crossings around the world—sometimes
asking about Wikipedians I knew in person, and sometimes about people whom
I had to look up in lists of participants and verify that they're legit (in
case you're wondering, they all were).

As far as _I_ know, there were two rejections in 2011, but there may have
been others I don't know about.

I've been telling this story every time I had a chance to talk to Wikimania
organizers after 2011. Visa rejections come up every year at least since
2010, the year I started following Wikimania. The current version of the
Wikimania Handbook [1] also refers to this: "Visa assistance—This is
probably one of the most time-consuming and complicated thing to
consider... Writing these letters is a full-time job". While writing this
email I added: "... a full-time job for about two weeks or even more", and
I moved the suggested time for this to April–May instead of May–June.

The Wikimania Handbook is awesome, and it's written based on real
experience—future organizers should take it seriously. (I'm _not_ implying
that the 2017 organizers didn't take it seriously. I acknowledge that it's
complicated and that every country is different.)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Handbook

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · ?????? ????????? ??????????
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
?“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore?

Sadly not just Canada.

I know the UK keeps the passport of applicants while they process the visa, and Georgians applying for a UK visa will have that processed in Ankara. Though the 8 weeks is slow for a visitor visa, not much chance to attend a funeral with that.

On a more practical note, this is a recurring problem - we certainly had issues in London and I know there have been other venues where there have been problems. Would it be possible to find some venues that are generally open for visitors and rotate Wikimania between them? Or at worst rotate Wikimania between closed and open countries. We are a global movement and if some of us have visa issues it should be are a problem for all of us.



Regards

Jonathan


> On 2 Jul 2017, at 08:13, Mardetanha <mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?Canadian visas are kinda different from rest of the world, Iran, Azerbaijan and Georgia and turkey are considered in Visa center in Ankara.
> Most Arabic countries are being considered in Amman Jordan.
> some Caucasian are being considered in Moscow
> and in Europe most are in VAC office in Paris?.
> so depending on your country of origin your document might be reviewed and sent to other countries, another strange point is throughout the process, they keep your passport, so it means that for unclear time-frame you can not make any travels.
>
>
>
> Mardetanha
>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in particular is pretty shocking to me.
>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8, 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca page it says that documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review. Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times can take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is made.
>>>
>>> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa deadline is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to now the Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>>>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>>>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>>>> > these countries.
>>>>
>>>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>>>
>>>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>>>> greatest pride is
>>>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>>>> life and be part
>>>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>>>> religion you practice,
>>>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>>>
>>>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andy Mabbett
>>>> @pigsonthewing
>>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Armine Aghayan
>>>
>>> Wikipedia Editor
>>> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
>>> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>>>
>>> +374 77209096
>>>
>>> +374 43053700
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> arminehaghayan@gmail.com
>>>
>>> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am
>>>
>>> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I think this another good argument for holding Wikimania in a country like Thailand where I live, that has one of the most open travel doors in the world. The nationals of most countries can arrive here without any special documentation except of course a valid passport, and stay for at least two weeks. All they might be asked for on arrival is to show their return air ticket.

Kudpung

> On 2Jul, 2017, at 17:26, Jonathan Cardy <werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sadly not just Canada.
>
> I know the UK keeps the passport of applicants while they process the visa, and Georgians applying for a UK visa will have that processed in Ankara. Though the 8 weeks is slow for a visitor visa, not much chance to attend a funeral with that.
>
> On a more practical note, this is a recurring problem - we certainly had issues in London and I know there have been other venues where there have been problems. Would it be possible to find some venues that are generally open for visitors and rotate Wikimania between them? Or at worst rotate Wikimania between closed and open countries. We are a global movement and if some of us have visa issues it should be are a problem for all of us.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 2 Jul 2017, at 08:13, Mardetanha <mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com <mailto:mardetanha.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> ?Canadian visas are kinda different from rest of the world, Iran, Azerbaijan and Georgia and turkey are considered in Visa center in Ankara.
>> Most Arabic countries are being considered in Amman Jordan.
>> some Caucasian are being considered in Moscow
>> and in Europe most are in VAC office in Paris?.
>> so depending on your country of origin your document might be reviewed and sent to other countries, another strange point is throughout the process, they keep your passport, so it means that for unclear time-frame you can not make any travels.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mardetanha
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in particular is pretty shocking to me.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan <arminehaghayan@gmail.com <mailto:arminehaghayan@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am from Armenia and I applid for a temporary Canadian visa on May 8, 2017 from the Canada visa application centre (CVAC) in Armenia. My documents were transferred from CVAC in Armenia to Embassy of Canada to Moscow on May 15, 2017. On http://www.cic.gc.ca <http://www.cic.gc.ca/> page it says that documents for citizens of Armenia can be viewed within 2 weeks (without transfer time). It's already 8 weeks my documents are under review. Because of this uncertain delay I lost my trip to participate in WikiWomen Camp. On June 12, 2017 I wrote a letter to immagration office to Moscow and have this reply: Your application is under review. Processing times can take longer when verifications are needed and no specific time for completion can be confirmed. You will be notified once a decision is made.
>>
>> On May 27, I wrote them telling that scholarship applicatnts visa deadline is near and again got the same answer back. So from May 8 up to now the Canadian Moscow visa office is reviewing my docs.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk <mailto:andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>> wrote:
>> On 22 June 2017 at 10:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal
>> <bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com <mailto:bodhisattwa.rgkmc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> > The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global
>> > south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from
>> > these countries.
>>
>> Today in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said:
>>
>> “Ours is a land of original peoples, and of newcomers. And our
>> greatest pride is
>> that you can come here from anywhere in the world, build a good
>> life and be part
>> of our community. We don’t care where you’re from, or what
>> religion you practice,
>> or whom you love, you are all welcome in Canada!”
>>
>> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962 <http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/selected-quotes-from-participants-in-the-national-canada-day-celebrations/wcm/14f154e7-9fe4-49f5-9423-fcebad451962>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk <http://pigsonthewing.org.uk/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Armine Aghayan
>>
>> Wikipedia Editor
>> Leading Human Resourses specialist at the
>> Ministry of Transport, Communication and Informational Technologies of RA
>>
>> +374 77209096 <tel:+374%2077%20209096>
>> +374 43053700 <tel:+374%2043%20053700>
>>
>> arminehaghayan@gmail.com <mailto:arminehaghayan@gmail.com>
>> armine.aghayan@mtcit.am <mailto:armine.aghayan@mtcit.am>
>> armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am <mailto:armine.aghayan@wikimedia.am>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


--
Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)

Hi,

For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
(Five latest Wikimania hosts)
* Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
* Mexico: 67
* UK: 91
* Italy: 93
* Hong Kong: 144
(Some other countries mentioned here)
* Australia: 34
* Thailand: 78
* Israel: 96


Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.


Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.


Thanks
Mykola (NickK)

--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44


Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


--
Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good
measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per
what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy
which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit
without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is
not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come
back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to
Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh
and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a
not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western
and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.

Best

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please
> look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check
> https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English)
> Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
> (Five latest Wikimania hosts)
> * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or
> equivalent
> * Mexico: 67
> * UK: 91
> * Italy: 93
> * Hong Kong: 144
> (Some other countries mentioned here)
> * Australia: 34
> * Thailand: 78
> * Israel: 96
>
> Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in
> the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And
> yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established
> Wikimedia chapter.
>
> Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly
> or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.
>
> Thanks
> Mykola (NickK)
>
> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
> ??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
> ????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> > a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

I would rather say it should not be the only measure. Of course Israel is a very special case (and so are countries whose governments ban Israeli citizens from entering their countries).

Other than that we have multiple measures of visa-friendliness:
* number of countries whose citizens do not need to apply for a visa
* availability of embassies abroad, particularly in countries that are not visa-free (say, Canada has an extensive network of embassies all over the world, including countries whose citizens need visas)
* visa application rejection rate
* frequency of denial of entry at border control.


I do not intend to promote any country, I just want everyone to be fair and do not call a country "visa-friendly" if in reality more than half of countries need visas there, and vice versa.
* A visa-friendly country looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Maldives
* A country that is not visa-friendly looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_North_Korea


Mykola (NickK)
--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
????: 3 ????? 2017, 00:17:31


Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.

Best


On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:

Hi,

For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
(Five latest Wikimania hosts)
* Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
* Mexico: 67
* UK: 91
* Italy: 93
* Hong Kong: 144
(Some other countries mentioned here)
* Australia: 34
* Thailand: 78
* Israel: 96


Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.


Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.


Thanks
Mykola (NickK)

--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44




Hello,
Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> a country like Thailand where I live

you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?

Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.

Sincerely,
DaB.


--
Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
2008), without particular problems.

But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of
countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.

A.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for
> nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you
> prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that
> still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.
>
> Kudpung
> > On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> >> a country like Thailand where I live
> >
> > you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> > second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> > war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
> >
> > Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> > the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > DaB.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> > PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimania-l mailing list
> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points already defined in the previous emails.

One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that can manage Visas and related problems with visas.

So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this point.

Kind regards

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Asaf Bartov
Sent: 03 July 2017 04:43
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt, 2008), without particular problems. 

But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.

   A.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like  Thailand where I  live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l



---
Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Number of countries not requiring a visa is a misleading metric, some visas are basically a tourist tax paid on entry to the country and some are a filter system to keep out anyone who might overstay and become an illegal migrant. That's before you get into the issue of some countries being much more important to us than others. For example India has several thousand times the population of Iceland.

We have had previous discussions on this over the years and I remember people giving figures as to the number of Visa refusals for Hong Kong, London and DC. All three were problems, and that's before you count the people who don't apply because they have good reason to believe they won't get a visa for that country.

I appreciate there are several other factors to worry about, we don't want Wikimania in a war zone, typhoon, or where there is a risk of wikimedians being arrested for their sexual orientation or views on religion, and we do need it to be close to a well connected international airport.

But it would be good to give more weight to the visa issue, and maybe invite some national tourist boards to pitch for a Wikimania with one of the criteria being their openness to such a global event.

Regards

Jonathan


> On 2 Jul 2017, at 23:17, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event.
>
> Best
>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures:
>> (Five latest Wikimania hosts)
>> * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent
>> * Mexico: 67
>> * UK: 91
>> * Italy: 93
>> * Hong Kong: 144
>> (Some other countries mentioned here)
>> * Australia: 34
>> * Thailand: 78
>> * Israel: 96
>>
>> Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter.
>>
>> Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
>> ??? ????: "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu>
>> ????: 2 ????? 2017, 23:19:44
>>
>> Hello,
>> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> > a country like Thailand where I live
>>
>> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
>> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
>> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>>
>> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
>> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> DaB.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
>> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

A country that almost everyone can go to is important

A country that most can afford to go to is important

A country where most can reasonably expect to be reasonably safe is important.

Without these the purpose of the event cannot be achieved

Safety is often a matter of choosing where you go and what you do. There is no utopia available. If you are so privileged that you can afford to go anywhere and don’t have visa problems anywhere, lucky you, but you don’t have to assume we are all in that situation.

Managing visa applications is the issue we are trying to deal with here (see the thread title), Advice that actually has some chance of practical applicability to this specific problem is welcome. For the rest please start another thread.

Personal prejudice against the local regime is a personal choice, and less important if the previous requirements are met.

Cheers,

Peter



From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ilario Valdelli
Sent: Monday, 03 July 2017 10:02 AM
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points already defined in the previous emails.



One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that can manage Visas and related problems with visas.



So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this point.



Kind regards



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Asaf Bartov <mailto:abartov@wikimedia.org>
Sent: 03 July 2017 04:43
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <mailto:wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections



DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt, 2008), without particular problems.



But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.



A.



On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.

Kudpung
> On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
>> a country like Thailand where I live
>
> you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
>
> Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
> --
> Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l






<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender.

Mail priva di virus. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com

Yes I was wondering about that. Helping people with visa applications is
not a Wikimedia specialty (though I appreciate the work that has gone into
the meta Learning patterns and those Wikipedia pages on visa policy that
were linked earlier).

I am thinking that maybe we need local collaboration on visa issues through
our chapter representatives with e.g. local conference holders? Maybe in
local academia?

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ilario Valdelli <
ilario.valdelli@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

> And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points
> already defined in the previous emails.
>
>
>
> One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that
> can manage Visas and related problems with visas.
>
>
>
> So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this
> point.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Asaf Bartov <abartov@wikimedia.org>
> *Sent: *03 July 2017 04:43
> *To: *Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> <wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections
>
>
>
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.
>
>
>
> But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of
> countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.
>
>
>
> A.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
> Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for
> nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you
> prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that
> still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to.
>
> Kudpung
> > On 3Jul, 2017, at 04:19, DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs:
> >> a country like Thailand where I live
> >
> > you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the
> > second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil
> > war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia?
> >
> > Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give
> > the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > DaB.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
> > PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimania-l mailing list
> > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Mail
> priva di virus. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> <#m_-8796327857715561708_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.

that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
(especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
and other human rights.

And cs, just to quote enwp:

“Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
(dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
for a conference.

Sincerely,
DaB.

Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
of citizens/residents of those countries.

This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
Wikimania, let us stick to that please.

Thanks,
Dhaval

On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> 2008), without particular problems.

that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
(especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
and other human rights.

And cs, just to quote enwp:

“Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
(dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
for a conference.

Sincerely,
DaB.



_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
rejected.

Regards,

Jayanta Nath

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>
> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>
> Thanks,
> Dhaval
>
> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> > 2008), without particular problems.
>
> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
> and other human rights.
>
> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>
> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>
> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>
> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
> for a conference.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 19:04 schrieb Dhaval S. Vyas:
> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests?

it was cs who tried to advertise a unfit country – where were you
„please stick to the topic“-mail then?

And sorry that telling the truth COULD hurt some feelings. There is this
arabic saying that you can’t carry the torch of truth through a throng
without burning some beards.

And no, you don’t need to answer. Learning that some people in the
movements support dictatorships was bad enough for this week.

Sincerely,
DaB.

Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?

On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath" <jayantanth@gmail.com> wrote:

As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
rejected.

Regards,

Jayanta Nath

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>
> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>
> Thanks,
> Dhaval
>
> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB." <wp@dabpunkt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> > 2008), without particular problems.
>
> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
> and other human rights.
>
> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>
> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>
> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>
> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
> for a conference.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l