Mailing List Archive

At 08:28 AM 9/30/2009, you wrote:

>If you want to tell somebody how to unsubscribe, please do it off
>list. Why doesn't the list block messages which contain a single
>"unsubscribe" in the body or an empty body with "unsubscribe" in the
>Subject line? I got bored of seeing these on the various lists I'm
>on so I blackhole them at the MTA level. All I see now is the people
>replying to them to say "Here's how you do it". By all means, reply,
>but there's no need to reply to the list.

Because about 90% of the time, someone else will want to unsubscribe too.

And if they see the 'unsubscribe' message, they somehow think that's
how to unsubscribe.

So, if they see the first request, and then see the message with the
correct instructions, they may follow it.

But I agree, a better solution is to have the list server 'reject'
unsubscribe messages. :)

Evan Platt wrote:
> At 08:28 AM 9/30/2009, you wrote:
>
>> If you want to tell somebody how to unsubscribe, please do it off
>> list. Why doesn't the list block messages which contain a single
>> "unsubscribe" in the body or an empty body with "unsubscribe" in the
>> Subject line? I got bored of seeing these on the various lists I'm on
>> so I blackhole them at the MTA level. All I see now is the people
>> replying to them to say "Here's how you do it". By all means, reply,
>> but there's no need to reply to the list.
>
> Because about 90% of the time, someone else will want to unsubscribe too.
>
> And if they see the 'unsubscribe' message, they somehow think that's
> how to unsubscribe.
>
> So, if they see the first request, and then see the message with the
> correct instructions, they may follow it.
>
> But I agree, a better solution is to have the list server 'reject'
> unsubscribe messages. :)
A better solution would be to automatically handle the request as it was
intended.

This is the kind of User Interface design issue that just makes me insane.

Rewrite it as necessary, forward it to the list manager and be done with it.

This is on par with the classic form submit message "The following
fields are required: . . . " Well if the fields are required, the submit
button shouldn't be active until they're filled.

It's no wonder non-technical people feel intimidated by computers.
Software still lets them do the "wrong" thing, even when their intent
was obvious.

Terry




--
Terry Carmen
CNY Support, LLC
http://cnysupport.com

Terry Carmen wrote:

<referring to messages asking how to unsubscribe to a list>
> A better solution would be to automatically handle the request as it
> was intended.
unless, of course, someone happens to be writing a message with the word
"unsubscribe" in it, and DOESN'T want to unsubscribe to the list

let you think this is picking a nit.... I run a list for parents of one
of my kid's schools, the school department runs another (badly) -- it's
very common for people to write to our list asking how to (un)subscribe
to the official school list

for that matter, on any list discussing mail handling, or perhaps
server-side software in general, I expect the word "unsubscribe" is
quite common

Miles


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra

At 11:36 AM 9/30/2009, you wrote:
>unless, of course, someone happens to be writing a message with the
>word "unsubscribe" in it, and DOESN'T want to unsubscribe to the list
>
>let you think this is picking a nit.... I run a list for parents of
>one of my kid's schools, the school department runs another (badly)
>-- it's very common for people to write to our list asking how to
>(un)subscribe to the official school list
>
>for that matter, on any list discussing mail handling, or perhaps
>server-side software in general, I expect the word "unsubscribe" is
>quite common

I've seen a number of lists where it was hard to put the word
unsubscribe in a message without it rejecting it..

Someone sent a message to the group of 'unsuscribe' (note the spelling).

I replied back 'to unsubscribe, send a message to
<unsubscribe@mailinglist.example.com>. List software denied my post -
telling me if I wish to unsubscribe, here's how to do it (oh... the
irony). So I tried again, this time saying 'if you wish to
unsuscribe , send a message to ..... List AGAIN saw the unsubscribe
address in my body of the message, and rejected it.

Can't remember how I got around it - I think I told the person to try
spelling it correctly. :)

Miles Fidelman wrote:
> unless, of course, someone happens to be writing a message with the word
> "unsubscribe" in it, and DOESN'T want to unsubscribe to the list
>
> let you think this is picking a nit.... I run a list for parents of one
> of my kid's schools, the school department runs another (badly) -- it's
> very common for people to write to our list asking how to (un)subscribe
> to the official school list
>
> for that matter, on any list discussing mail handling, or perhaps
> server-side software in general, I expect the word "unsubscribe" is
> quite common

Would I be correct in assuming that most or all of those messages have
more words in the subject than just the single word "unsubscribe"? Or
at least some message content?

If the message body is empty and the subject only contains the word
"unsubscribe," it's probably a safe bet to assume it's an attempt to
remove someone from the list and not a question or comment.

--
Kelson Vibber
SpeedGate Communications <www.speed.net>

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:24:36 +0000, Londen, Michael van wrote:

> P PLEASE CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT BEFORE PRINTING THIS MESSAGE.

save trees dont post html :)

send a email to users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org reply to what
you get back, and then you are off the list

Am 25.09.2014 um 05:59 schrieb Shankar:

here you go

list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

don't send unsubscribe to the list
not here and not on any other mailing list

sent to the list to hopefully save some
"unsubscribe" posts in the future

25.09.2014, 13:13, Reindl Harald kirjoitti:
> Am 25.09.2014 um 05:59 schrieb Shankar:
>
> here you go
>
> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>
>
> don't send unsubscribe to the list
> not here and not on any other mailing list
>
> sent to the list to hopefully save some
> "unsubscribe" posts in the future
>
>
>
>
It just happens that Microsoft has made it so difficult to see the
"source code" of a message and see that. Also no matter what sofware, it
is still in source code.

Some lists have made it easy publishing that info on an attachment. Most
have not, as we are certainly all (or most) Internet Pro's. No matter
what you do, there will be noice, like these messages in this thread.

--
jarif.bit

Am 25.09.2014 um 22:53 schrieb Jari Fredriksson:
> 25.09.2014, 13:13, Reindl Harald kirjoitti:
>> Am 25.09.2014 um 05:59 schrieb Shankar:
>>
>> here you go
>>
>> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>
>>
>> don't send unsubscribe to the list
>> not here and not on any other mailing list
>>
>> sent to the list to hopefully save some
>> "unsubscribe" posts in the future
>>
> It just happens that Microsoft has made it so difficult to see the
> "source code" of a message and see that. Also no matter what sofware, it
> is still in source code.

irrelevant - every list has a welcome message and there is no
logic in ask other members to unsubscribe yourself, one did
also not ask them for subscribe

https://www.google.at/search?q=spamassassin+mailing+list
https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists

> Some lists have made it easy publishing that info on an attachment. Most
> have not

that additions are a problem in context of DMARC

> as we are certainly all (or most) Internet Pro's. No matter
> what you do, there will be noice, like these messages in
> this thread

well, especially because list like these are tech-lists i wonder :-)

On 9/25/14, 2:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> irrelevant - every list has a welcome message and there is no logic in
> ask other members to unsubscribe yourself, one did also not ask them
> for subscribe https://www.google.at/search?q=spamassassin+mailing+list
> https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists

I love it when people get all authoritarian on lists. I've used the
list-unsubscribe address numerous times. Never once seen a response and
the mail has never once stopped.

Process seems broken to me.

Derek

Am 15.10.2014 um 19:07 schrieb Derek Harding:
> On 9/25/14, 2:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> irrelevant - every list has a welcome message and there is no logic in
>> ask other members to unsubscribe yourself, one did also not ask them
>> for subscribe https://www.google.at/search?q=spamassassin+mailing+list
>> https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists
>
> I love it when people get all authoritarian on lists. I've used the
> list-unsubscribe address numerous times. Never once seen a response and
> the mail has never once stopped.
>
> Process seems broken to me

and *why* do you NOT state that in your *first* message?

On 10/15/2014 1:07 PM, Derek Harding wrote:
> On 9/25/14, 2:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> irrelevant - every list has a welcome message and there is no logic
>> in ask other members to unsubscribe yourself, one did also not ask
>> them for subscribe
>> https://www.google.at/search?q=spamassassin+mailing+list
>> https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists
>
> I love it when people get all authoritarian on lists. I've used the
> list-unsubscribe address numerous times. Never once seen a response
> and the mail has never once stopped.
>
> Process seems broken to me.
I've looked into this and tested the process without issue. The only
issue I've seen to date is someone who joined who did not know what
email address they joined as and does not know how to read the email
source to determine the correct email address to unsubscribe.

If you know the email address you want unsubscribed and need help, email
me off-list and I'll get it taken care of!

regards,
KAM

On 2014-10-15 10:16, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> On 10/15/2014 1:07 PM, Derek Harding wrote:
>> On 9/25/14, 2:00 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> irrelevant - every list has a welcome message and there is no logic
>>> in ask other members to unsubscribe yourself, one did also not ask
>>> them for subscribe
>>> https://www.google.at/search?q=spamassassin+mailing+list
>>> https://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists
>>
>> I love it when people get all authoritarian on lists. I've used the
>> list-unsubscribe address numerous times. Never once seen a response
>> and the mail has never once stopped.
>>
>> Process seems broken to me.
> I've looked into this and tested the process without issue. The only
> issue I've seen to date is someone who joined who did not know what
> email address they joined as and does not know how to read the email
> source to determine the correct email address to unsubscribe.

I second this. I "tested" it a few months back when I unsubscribed and
re-subscribed a new address from all of the mailing lists. This list
worked fine. Most did.

There were a couple I encountered that didn't work, where the -request
or -unsubscribe addresses weren't properly aliased, and I can confirm
that all the ones I encountered are now fixed.

--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren

On 10/15/14, 10:09 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> and *why* do you NOT state that in your *first* message?
>
That was my first message.

On 10/15/14, 11:35 AM, Dave Warren wrote:
> On 2014-10-15 10:16, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> I've looked into this and tested the process without issue. The only
>> issue I've seen to date is someone who joined who did not know what
>> email address they joined as and does not know how to read the email
>> source to determine the correct email address to unsubscribe.
>
> I second this. I "tested" it a few months back when I unsubscribed and
> re-subscribed a new address from all of the mailing lists. This list
> worked fine. Most did.
>
> There were a couple I encountered that didn't work, where the -request
> or -unsubscribe addresses weren't properly aliased, and I can confirm
> that all the ones I encountered are now fixed.
>
I try the process periodically, it has not worked for me through testing
over the past year.

Mail from me to users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org goes into a
black hole.

I didn't mention it before because the list is the only place to post
and anyone posting unsubscribe questions on the list gets verbally
berated and treated as though they're an idiot until they shut up (see
the responses so far for examples).

Derek

On Thursday, October 16, 2014, 8:02:48 PM, Derek wrote:

> On 10/15/14, 11:35 AM, Dave Warren wrote:

> On 2014-10-15 10:16, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
> I've looked into this and tested the process without issue.
> The only issue I've seen to date is someone who joined who
> did not know what email address they joined as and does not
> know how to read the email source to determine the correct email address to unsubscribe.
>
>
> I second this. I "tested" it a few months back when I
> unsubscribed and re-subscribed a new address from all of the
> mailing lists. This list worked fine. Most did.
>
> There were a couple I encountered that didn't work, where
> the -request or -unsubscribe addresses weren't properly
> aliased, and I can confirm that all the ones I encountered are now fixed.
>
>
> I try the process periodically, it has not worked for me
> through testing over the past year.
>
> Mail from me to users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org goes into a black hole.
>
> I didn't mention it before because the list is the only place
> to post and anyone posting unsubscribe questions on the list
> gets verbally berated and treated as though they're an idiot
> until they shut up (see the responses so far for examples).
>

Have you confirmed in your server logs the message was received by the
SA server? If so, there would have been a message coming back to your
server shortly thereafter.

I just sent an unsubscribe request:

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:03:35 -0500
From: Duane Hill <duihi77@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1224074593.20141016210335@gmail.com>
To: users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org

and received a message back shortly after (roughly 30 seconds):

Date: 17 Oct 2014 02:04:06 -0000
Message-ID: <1413511446.55424.ezmlm@spamassassin.apache.org>
From: users-help@spamassassin.apache.org
To: duihi77@gmail.com
...
Subject: confirm unsubscribe from users@spamassassin.apache.org


Are you sending the unsubscribe request from an address subscribed?

--
Duane Hill
duihi77@gmail.com
"If at first you don't succeed, so much for sky diving."

On 10/16/2014 7:14 PM, Duane Hill wrote:
> Are you sending the unsubscribe request from an address subscribed?

Yes

Derek Harding wrote:
> Mail from me to users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org goes into a black
> hole.

For help about that issue you should email the mailing list admin.
They are the human admins and can help you unsubscribe or debug the
problem. The mailing list members cannot do this.

I am not one of the spamassassin mailing list admins but I am one of
the mailing list admins of another large site with 1,000+ lists. When
in trouble email the human admin and not the mailing list members.
The mailing list members can't help you. The mailing list admins are
the ones who can help you.

Generally mailing list admins can be reached at the -owner address.
That address takes the mailing list address and adds -owner to the end
of it. The mailing list here is users@spamassassin.apache.org. To
reach the owner send to users-owner@spamassassin.apache.org and it
should reach a human admin of the mailing list. This is documented in
the help information for the mailing list. It applies to most mailing
list management software.

> I didn't mention it before because the list is the only place to post and
> anyone posting unsubscribe questions on the list gets verbally berated and
> treated as though they're an idiot until they shut up (see the responses so
> far for examples).

The problem is that this is a technical mailing list that is concerned
with the technical details of email. There is an expectation that
people on a technical mailing list about email will know how email
works. Including how mailing lists since somehow everyone on the list
got themselves subscribed. The unsubscription process is done
identically to subscription. If you got on the list just do the exact
same thing to get off the list. And if that doesn't work then contact
the mailing list admin at the -owner address.

So what do you do if you find yourself subscribed to a mailing list
but in reality you are not an email type of person? You really would
rather just read web pages? In that case use the web! A quick web
search will find that spamassassin.apache.org uses the apache.org
infrastructure. Here is the Apache page describing their mailing
lists. It includes additional information for figuring out what
address you originally subscribed with and how to unsubscribe from a
different address. Good stuff!

http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html

Including links to the ezmlm upstream documentation. This is really
quite good documentation. If the operation of the apache.org mailing
lists have been a mystery before then take a few minutes and read
through the manual. It will remove the mystery and turn you into a
apache.org mailing list expert. Great stuff!

http://untroubled.org/ezmlm/manual/

The most important takeaway is that if you have problems with a
mailing list then contact the mailing list owner at the -owner
address.

http://untroubled.org/ezmlm/manual/Contacting-the-Owner.html#Contacting-the-Owner

Hope that helps someone!
Bob

On 2014-10-16 19:14, Duane Hill wrote:
> Are you sending the unsubscribe request from an address subscribed?

That generates a useful error message too:

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
users@spamassassin.apache.org mailing list.

Acknowledgment: The address

lists@hireahit.com

was not on the users mailing list when I received
your request and is not a subscriber of this list.

If you unsubscribe, but continue to receive mail, you're subscribed
under a different address than you currently use. Please look at the
header for:
<...>

I also verified that the -unsubscribe address works, and got a reply in
under a minute from there too. I'm obviously not completing the loop
since I would prefer to stay subscribed.

--
Dave Warren
http://www.hireahit.com/
http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davejwarren

Am 17.10.2014 um 02:57 schrieb Derek Harding:
> On 10/15/14, 10:09 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>> and *why* do you NOT state that in your *first* message?
>>
> That was my first message

ah so you hijacked a thread pretending unsubscribe don't work but don't
know if the OP tried it nor made clear you are not the OP

frankly the "Unsubscribe" sent to the list happens multiple times on
multiple lists every week and i am tried of it - especially on technical
lists

On 10/27/2014 3:52 PM, Chris Brandstetter wrote:
>
> A Chris Brandstetter
> Linux/UNIX System Administrator
> Nebraska Wesleyan University
> ⌘
>
You should email users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org to unsubscribe.

Before you do though, where did you read that this was how to
unsubscribe from the list? We've been seeing a lot of this and it would
be good to know if there's some documentation that needs fixing.

Am 27.10.2014 um 20:52 schrieb Chris Brandstetter:

here we go again
https://www.google.at/#q=spamassassin%20list%20unsubscribe

I had assumed it was like most lists where a simple unsubscribe on the subject or in the body would remove me (default settings for Majordomo list manager).

A Chris Brandstetter
Linux/UNIX System Administrator
Nebraska Wesleyan University
⌘

On Oct 27, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Joe Quinn <jquinn@pccc.com> wrote:

> On 10/27/2014 3:52 PM, Chris Brandstetter wrote:
>>
>> A Chris Brandstetter
>> Linux/UNIX System Administrator
>> Nebraska Wesleyan University
>> ⌘
>>
> You should email users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org to unsubscribe.
>
> Before you do though, where did you read that this was how to unsubscribe from the list? We've been seeing a lot of this and it would be good to know if there's some documentation that needs fixing.

Am 27.10.2014 um 21:19 schrieb Chris Brandstetter:
> I had assumed it was like most lists where a simple unsubscribe on the subject or in the body would remove me (default settings for Majordomo list manager).

most lists?
which one?

any list on this earth has a unsubscribe header

list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

frankly even majordomo don't unsubscribe by post to the list
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:majordomo@postfix.org>

> On Oct 27, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Joe Quinn <jquinn@pccc.com> wrote:
>> On 10/27/2014 3:52 PM, Chris Brandstetter wrote:
>>>
>>> A Chris Brandstetter
>>> Linux/UNIX System Administrator
>>> Nebraska Wesleyan University
>>> ⌘
>>>
>> You should email users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org to unsubscribe.
>>
>> Before you do though, where did you read that this was how to unsubscribe from the list? We've been seeing a lot of this and it would be good to know if there's some documentation that needs fixing.

and frankly *every* list has a welcome message while the list-software
only can send it, read is the job of the subscriber

leow a quote of the SA weclome messaage which even explicitly states *do
not* send unsubscribe to the list - besides that: what sense does it
make to send every of the 100, 1000, 5000 subscribers the message?
______________________________________________

I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please
do not send them to the list address! Instead, send
your message to the correct command address:

To subscribe to the list, send a message to:
<users-subscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
<users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list:
<users-info@spamassassin.apache.org>
<users-faq@spamassassin.apache.org>

Similar addresses exist for the digest list:
<users-digest-subscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>
<users-digest-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail:
<users-get.123_145@spamassassin.apache.org>

To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail:
<users-index.123_456@spamassassin.apache.org>
______________________________________________

Am 27.10.2014 um 21:38 schrieb Reindl Harald:
>
> Am 27.10.2014 um 21:19 schrieb Chris Brandstetter:
>> I had assumed it was like most lists where a simple unsubscribe on the
>> subject or in the body would remove me (default settings for Majordomo
>> list manager).
>
> most lists?
> which one?
>
> any list on this earth has a unsubscribe header
>
> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>
>
> frankly even majordomo don't unsubscribe by post to the list
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:majordomo@postfix.org>
>
>> On Oct 27, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Joe Quinn <jquinn@pccc.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/27/2014 3:52 PM, Chris Brandstetter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A Chris Brandstetter
>>>> Linux/UNIX System Administrator
>>>> Nebraska Wesleyan University
>>>> ⌘
>>>>
>>> You should email users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org to
>>> unsubscribe.
>>>
>>> Before you do though, where did you read that this was how to
>>> unsubscribe from the list? We've been seeing a lot of this and it
>>> would be good to know if there's some documentation that needs fixing