Mailing List Archive

> .... maybe i lean towards if you are not smart enough to find
> the headers you shouldn't have subscribed in the first place.

Actually, it's worse than that. In order to FIND the list and the
link/insruction to subscribe to it, you go to the website, and the two
links for subscribing and unsubscribing via e-mail are right *there*
together in that one place.

Scary....

- Charles

Charles Gregory wrote:

>> .... maybe i lean towards if you are not smart enough to find
>> the headers you shouldn't have subscribed in the first place.
>
> Actually, it's worse than that. In order to FIND the list and the
> link/insruction to subscribe to it, you go to the website, and the two
> links for subscribing and unsubscribing via e-mail are right *there*
> together in that one place.
>
> Scary....
>
> - Charles

On the many mailing lists where I see these poorly directed unsubscribe
emails, nearly all of them contain the single word "unsubscribe" and
nothing else. Couldn't the mailing list software be updated to detect
these emails and to reject them? Or at least put them into a moderation
queue so threads like this one don't get started?

Could even just send an autoresponse back to the sender advising them
where they should look in order to find out the unsubscribe instructions.

--
Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer
Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/

> Could even just send an autoresponse back to the sender advising them
> where they should look in order to find out the unsubscribe instructions.

Or run a script to unsubscribe them :-)

Could look for 'out of office' and 'on vacation' also.

--
Michael Scheidell, CTO
>|SECNAP Network Security
Finalist 2009 Network Products Guide Hot Companies
FreeBSD SpamAssassin Ports maintainer


_________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned and certified safe by SpammerTrap(r).
For Information please see http://www.secnap.com/products/spammertrap/
_________________________________________________________________________

On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:47:21 -0400 (EDT)
Charles Gregory <cgregory@hwcn.org> wrote:

> > .... maybe i lean towards if you are not smart enough to find
> > the headers you shouldn't have subscribed in the first place.
>
> Actually, it's worse than that. In order to FIND the list and the
> link/insruction to subscribe to it, you go to the website, and the
> two links for subscribing and unsubscribing via e-mail are right
> *there* together in that one place.
>
> Scary....
>
> - Charles
>

It's been 6 years since I subscribed to this list, but I was sent a
confirmation email that had to be replied to in order to subscribe.
It's called "double opt-in". Just about as safe as can be for
getting only those who really want to subscribe.

--
Raquel
============================================================
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most
intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.

--Charles Darwin

At 06:43 12-06-2009, Michael Scheidell wrote:
>SA mailing list folks: you might want to include both automatically
>in the footer of your emails. Yes, they will break dkim signing for
>many people, but maybe we should lead by example.

The people that footer is intended for won't read it anyway.

Regards,
-sm

On 12-Jun-2009, at 07:25, Benny Pedersen wrote:
> google webmail does not support it :/

Yes it does. Look under something like "Original Message"

--
I am by nature made for my won good, not my own evil

On 12-Jun-2009, at 07:43, Michael Scheidell wrote:
> the spamassassin mailing list does violate (technically) the US
> (you) CAN-SPAM laws.

No one cares, and it's not true. The unsubscribe link is right there
in plain sight. Whether Gmail conceals it from you has nothing to do
with it. If you want to complain about it, complain to google. They
will tell you that the full text of the message is available and how
to get to it.

> SA mailing list folks: you might want to include both automatically
> in the footer of your emails.

No. this is a bad idea. If you can't figure out how to look at mail
headers, then you have no business on this list.

--
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

On 12-Jun-2009, at 10:36, Raquel wrote:
> It's called "double opt-in"

No it's not. It's called 'subscription confirmation'.

"Double opt-in" is a spammer phrase invented to imply that a form on a
web page asking for an email address is "opt-in".


--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you *think*
before you break 'em.

LuKreme,

I agree that one should be able to read the mail headers, but unless
you knew to look there, you wouldn't really ever care to. Especially
when wanting to unsubscribe. I don't think it has ever come across my
mind to look there. RFC's aside...a link at the bottom of the email
is the easiest. I don't plan on unsubscribing so I don't really care,
but being bull headed is pointless in this case.

Curtis LaMasters
http://www.curtis-lamasters.com
http://www.builtnetworks.com



On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:47 PM, LuKreme<kremels@kreme.com> wrote:
> On 12-Jun-2009, at 10:36, Raquel wrote:
>>
>> It's called "double opt-in"
>
> No it's not. It's called 'subscription confirmation'.
>
> "Double opt-in" is a spammer phrase invented to imply that a form on a web
> page asking for an email address is "opt-in".
>
>
> --
> Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you *think*
>        before you break 'em.
>
>

At 07:16 PM 6/12/2009, you wrote:
>LuKreme,
>
>I agree that one should be able to read the mail headers, but unless
>you knew to look there, you wouldn't really ever care to. Especially
>when wanting to unsubscribe. I don't think it has ever come across my
>mind to look there. RFC's aside...a link at the bottom of the email
>is the easiest. I don't plan on unsubscribing so I don't really care,
>but being bull headed is pointless in this case.

I know we're beating a dead horse here, but a few things to think about:

You don't MAGICALLY join a mailing list. You have to follow usually a
few steps (often not only subscribe, but often confirm your request
by replying to the "You really want to join this list?" e-mail or
clicking on a link in the e-mail.

You generally get a e-mail telling you that you've confirmed your
subscription AND includes instructions on how to unsubscribe.

Almost EVERY mailing list either includes instructions on how to
unsubscribe at the bottom or in the headers.

If you're joining a anti-spam mailing list, you should be able to
figure out how to unsubscribe.

Almost NO mailing list software has you e-mail the general list to
perform commands such as unsubscribe.

If you're smart enough to join, you should be smart enough to unsubscribe.

I'm probably missing sometihng, but that's a good majority of it.

On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:47:21 -0600
LuKreme <kremels@kreme.com> wrote:

> On 12-Jun-2009, at 10:36, Raquel wrote:
> > It's called "double opt-in"
>
> No it's not. It's called 'subscription confirmation'.
>
> "Double opt-in" is a spammer phrase invented to imply that a form
> on a web page asking for an email address is "opt-in".
>

If you want to get snippy and real technical about it, the Mailman
people call it, "confirmed opt-in".

--
Raquel
============================================================
Our values are defined by what we will tolerate when it is done to
others.

--William Greider

On 12-Jun-2009, at 20:16, Curtis LaMasters wrote:
> RFC's aside...a link at the bottom of the email is the easiest. I
> don't plan on unsubscribing so I don't really care, but being bull
> headed is pointless in this case.

Modifying the message body breaks things. If you can figure out how to
subscribe, you can figure out how to unsubscribe. Not taking the time
to figure this out is merely selfish and lazy. even if you don't know
to look at the headers, you can go to google.

<http://lmgtfy.com/?q=unsubscribe+spamassassin>



--
Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you *think*
before you break 'em.

On Sat, June 13, 2009 03:42, LuKreme wrote:
> On 12-Jun-2009, at 07:25, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>> google webmail does not support it :/
> Yes it does. Look under something like "Original Message"

it was a leading q & a from my side and i am not using it :)

--
http://localhost/ 100% uptime and 100% mirrored :)

Michael Scheidell wrote:
>
>
> Since we saw two of them come in pretty back to back, I suspect a joe
> job of sometype. those people might not have subscribed.
That would be a bit tricky to just be a joe job. This list is confirmed
opt-in. i.e.: if you subscribe, an automated bot from ezlm sends you a
message that you need to reply to to get subscribed. Well, actually all
you have to do is send a second message to a different address that
contains randomly generated text as a magic cookie. But still, you need
to know that randomly generated address.

Of course, it's always the possibility someone guessed the random text
in the reply address.. but, good luck..

They start off a bit like this (note: I've munged the email address, and
changed the values of the magic text and serial number, but I have not
changed the length. I substituted letters for letters, and numbers for
numbers. Otherwise, this is the start of a real confirm message.)

---------------------

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
users@spamassassin.apache.org mailing list.

To confirm that you would like

example@example.com

added to the users mailing list, please send
a short reply to this address:

users-sc.1244818352.jacibredcfjnkiobdtef-example=example.com@spamassassin.apache.org

Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
...
------------

LuKreme wrote:
> The unsubscribe link is right there in plain sight. Whether Gmail
> conceals it from you has nothing to do with it.

Few consumer mail clients (Gmail, Yahoo, Thunderbird, OE, Outlook, Lotus/Domino, etc) show the user headers by default. This means they are clearly NOT in plain sight.

> No. this is a bad idea. If you can't figure out how to look at mail
> headers, then you have no business on this list.

The point is, you shouldn't HAVE to look at the mail headers.

Putting the unsubscribe info in the footer is a good idea no mater what. This is what I do for all the lists I run. Yes, some people are too dumb to read that far ... but MOST people aren't.

david


--
IBM i on Power -- For when you can't afford to be out of business.

On 13-Jun-2009, at 22:04, David Gibbs wrote:
> LuKreme wrote:
>> The unsubscribe link is right there in plain sight. Whether Gmail
>> conceals it from you has nothing to do with it.
>
> Few consumer mail clients (Gmail, Yahoo, Thunderbird, OE, Outlook,
> Lotus/Domino, etc) show the user headers by default. This means
> they are clearly NOT in plain sight.

No, it means that the clients are HIDING something that is in plain
sight. It is the client's issue, not the email's issue nor the mailing
list's issue.

>> No. this is a bad idea. If you can't figure out how to look at mail
>> headers, then you have no business on this list.
>
> The point is, you shouldn't HAVE to look at the mail headers.

Says you?

> Putting the unsubscribe info in the footer is a good idea no mater
> what

No it's not. It adds kruft to the end of the message, destroys the
integrity of signed posts, and makes every message unnecessarily
longer by duplicating information. It is a crutch for the ignorant and
uninformed and lazy.


--
There is NO Rule six!

As the headers of every message state:

list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>


At 07:39 PM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

On Thu, 2009-07-09 at 19:42 -0700, Evan Platt wrote:
> As the headers of every message state:
>
> list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

I tried that when I went on vacation last month. My ack bounced after
three days, so it never unsubscribed me. I'm back from vacation now, so
I don't want to be removed, but just to let you know the automated
process doesn't always work properly...


--
Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX
www.austinenergy.com

So - you attempted to unsubscribe. You didn't reply to the
confirmation e-mail that was sent. You weren't unsubscribed.

The process worked properly. Otherwise, anyone would be able to
subscribe or unsubscribe anyone else.

At 05:44 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:

>I tried that when I went on vacation last month. My ack bounced after
>three days, so it never unsubscribed me. I'm back from vacation now, so
>I don't want to be removed, but just to let you know the automated
>process doesn't always work properly...

On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 06:56 -0700, Evan Platt wrote:
> So - you attempted to unsubscribe. You didn't reply to the
> confirmation e-mail that was sent.

I did reply, but the ezlm software refused to accept the message. And
exchange is dumb enough that it didn't tell me that it failed for 3
days.

The DSN read:

Reporting-MTA: dns;smtp.austinenergy.com

Final-Recipient:
rfc822;users-uc.1245773457.nhiihncbmgpfondhajck-Dan.McDonald=austinenergy.com@spamassassin.apache.org
Action: failed
Status: 4.4.7

I'm not exactly a novice listserv user. I've been managing listservs of
various flavors since 1990 or so. So I do know how to read the
instructions and send an ack back. I'm just not used to them being
rejected.


--
Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX
www.austinenergy.com

Oh ok.. I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame Exchange. :)



At 07:40 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-07-10 at 06:56 -0700, Evan Platt wrote:
> > So - you attempted to unsubscribe. You didn't reply to the
> > confirmation e-mail that was sent.
>
>I did reply, but the ezlm software refused to accept the message. And
>exchange is dumb enough that it didn't tell me that it failed for 3
>days.
>
>The DSN read:
>
> Reporting-MTA: dns;smtp.austinenergy.com
>
> Final-Recipient:
>
>rfc822;users-uc.1245773457.nhiihncbmgpfondhajck-Dan.McDonald=austinenergy.com@spamassassin.apache.org
> Action: failed
> Status: 4.4.7
>
>I'm not exactly a novice listserv user. I've been managing listservs of
>various flavors since 1990 or so. So I do know how to read the
>instructions and send an ack back. I'm just not used to them being
>rejected.

At 06:17 AM 7/23/2009, Rick Duval wrote:
>unsubscribe

As is stated in every header:

list-unsubscribe: <mailto:users-unsubscribe@spamassassin.apache.org>

On 29-Sep-2009, at 21:54, Gary Smith wrote:
> Didn't we already have this discussion today. You need to use the
> link in the headers!

Yes, but if he could read your message, he could read the headers,
right?


--
What the hell's goin' on in the engine room? Were there
monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?

> On 29-Sep-2009, at 21:54, Gary Smith wrote:
>> Didn't we already have this discussion today. You need to use the
>> link in the headers!
>
> Yes, but if he could read your message, he could read the headers, right?
>
>
Think about it, the people that unsubscribe aren't really interested in
what you have to say about unsubscribing or the correct place to look
for the email address. I think a simple reply from one of us with the
correct email address would suffice.

--
Dan Schaefer
Web Developer/Systems Analyst
Performance Administration Corp.

On 30/09/2009 16:08, Dan Schaefer wrote:

>>> Didn't we already have this discussion today. You need to use the
>>> link in the headers!
>>
>> Yes, but if he could read your message, he could read the headers, right?
>>
> Think about it, the people that unsubscribe aren't really interested in
> what you have to say about unsubscribing or the correct place to look
> for the email address. I think a simple reply from one of us with the
> correct email address would suffice.

If you want to tell somebody how to unsubscribe, please do it off list.
Why doesn't the list block messages which contain a single "unsubscribe"
in the body or an empty body with "unsubscribe" in the Subject line? I
got bored of seeing these on the various lists I'm on so I blackhole
them at the MTA level. All I see now is the people replying to them to
say "Here's how you do it". By all means, reply, but there's no need to
reply to the list.

--
Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer
Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/