Mailing List Archive

>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
> out.
>

Personally, I think you are focused too narrowly and aren't seeing the
forest for the trees. Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a
result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read and
organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization amongst
the various forum tools out there. I'm not suggesting discuss is
necessarily better or worse than other (often not open source) forum tools,
but each one implements its own walled garden. I'm referring more broadly
than just Python, or even Python development, though even within the Python
community it's now difficult to manage/monitor all the various discussion
sources (email, discuss, GitHub, Stack Overflow, ...)

Get off my lawn! ;-)

Skip, kinda glad he's retired now...

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 9:33 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a result, people can use
> any of a large number of applications to read and organize their email. To
> my knowledge, there is no standardization amongst the various forum tools
> out there.
>

While I understand and somewhat agree with you, Skip, there is a "hidden"
feature of Discourse that does make it a little easier to track many
different forums: You can add ".rss" to various URLs and get an RSS feed
for that topic/channel/etc.

e.g. the WebAssembly group is: https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28
And its corresponding RSS feed is:
https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28.rss

Cheers,
Peter

On 15. 07. 22 16:24, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> The discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> experiment has
> been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>
> is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org>, you're missing out.
>
> Personally, I think you are focused too narrowly and aren't seeing the
> forest for the trees. Email protocols were long ago standardized. As a
> result, people can use any of a large number of applications to read and
> organize their email. To my knowledge, there is no standardization
> amongst the various forum tools out there. I'm not suggesting discuss is
> necessarily better or worse than other (often not open source) forum
> tools, but each one implements its own walled garden. I'm referring more
> broadly than just Python, or even Python development, though even within
> the Python community it's now difficult to manage/monitor all the
> various discussion sources (email, discuss, GitHub, Stack Overflow, ...)
>
> Get off my lawn! ;-)
>
> Skip, kinda glad he's retired now...


And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
client-side filtering in Thunderbird.
I do go to the site to post though. Tthat's possible by e-mail, but the
lack of standardization in reply/quoting styles and makes it hard for
Discourse to format e-mail replies nicely. (Traditional clients aren't
perfect at that either, TBH.)


– Petr (not on behalf of any group)


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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

This might seem odd coming from me, but I’ve come around to supporting this move. Discourse is not without its issues, but then again, the same can be said about email. Without going into too much of my own personal preferences, I agree that the experiment has proven successful enough that there’s more value at this point in consolidating discussions.

Thank you for reaching out to see if there are any usability or workflow issues that might impact this decision. There aren’t too much for me, but I wonder if there are accessibility or native language concerns that might unduly affect other users.

One thing I didn’t see mentioned is the question of identity. There’s one side which is how folks self identify themselves on the mailing list or forum. We don’t have any prohibitions against alias or nicknames, which IMHO is totally fine. The flip side is more important, ensuring that folks identities can’t be spoofed or hijacked. In email at least, I can digitally sign my messages (such as this one), and while it’s probably true that fewer and fewer folks use any kind of email digital signature verification, at least *I* can prove whether or not I wrote something. What similar kinds of protections do we have on Discourse?

-Barry

> On Jul 15, 2022, at 04:18, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while, and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev. According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to discuss.python.org.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
> - And that's it?

I think this is a great change, one I've been looking forward to myself.

For authors of PEPs and discussion topics, Discourse provides better
authoring experience, allowing for typo fixes and small edits.
For moderators, Discourse also provides the toolings to make their jobs
easier, which is definitely lacking in mailing list.
For the readers, we get the choice of receiving emails via mailing list
mode, or via rss, or by actually going to the site.

I think it's great that you've considered what's best for the different
types of users here. So thank you Petr and SC for this decision.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 4:26 AM Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:
> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
> out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
> for important questions and discussions.
>
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

I support the move to Discourse. For me, the combination of GitHub,
Discourse, and Discord work very well.

Looking forward to one less mailing list subscription in my life ;)


Erlend

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 at 13:27, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:
> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
> out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
> for important questions and discussions.
>
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:

> And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with client-side
> filtering in Thunderbird.

How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse
has everything linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around, making it hard to follow.

--
~Ethan~
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization, for a
platform whose future I don't know about.

When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment with
python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving python-dev
too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected obviously.

On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin, <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:
> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
> out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
> for important questions and discussions.
>
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

To me, that’s the biggest negative of Discourse, and I definitely prefer threaded discussions. Unfortunately though, much like top posting <wink>, I think that horse is out of the barn, what with other forums like GitHub being linear.

-Barry

On Jul 15, 2022, at 11:59, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
> How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around, making it hard to follow.

On 15Jul2022 11:59, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
>> client-side
>> filtering in Thunderbird.
>
>How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to
>it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything
>linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping
>around, making it hard to follow.

I use discourse in mailing list mode. It only looks unthreaded :-)

What actually happens is that it has its own message-ids and mangles
things, and treats some headers differently. Eg if I post to discourse,
the copy of the message which comes to me from discourse has a discourse
generated message-id, not my original message-id.

I did a bit of digging here:
https://discuss.python.org/t/why-is-the-result-after-this-function-is-called-like-this/14680/15
but have not got to submitting a bug report.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes you to
> all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing messages locally.

Hello Petr,

I suppose this might be the preferred way for the old farts like me who prefer
mailing lists over a never-ending list of specific websites for each specific
thing we are participating in.

What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how to use
discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode” or what's the easiest way to
filter incoming mail into directories based on discuss.python.org categories,
how do I handle answers/threads, and finally, how to make this approach effective?

Note that I am capable of googling some of this stuff, but I am preferably
looking for your personal tips, as I always assumed you are a mail person, like
I am. If you prefer to use the RSS feeds, I am interested in tips there as well.

Thanks,
--
Miro Hron?ok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok

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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Petr Viktorin schrieb am 15.07.22 um 13:18:
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while, and
> while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a success. The
> Core Development category is busier than python-dev. According to staff,
> discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If you're following
> python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing out.

That's one of the reasons then why I pretty much lost track of the CPython
development since d.p.o was introduced. It's sad, but it was just too much
work for me (compared to threaded Newsgroups) to follow the discussions
there, definitely more than I wanted to invest.

It's not the only reason, though, so please take a decision for the home of
CPython discussions that suits the (currently) more active part of the
development community.

Stefan

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On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hron?ok wrote:
> On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
>> categorizing messages locally.
>
> Hello Petr,
>
> I suppose this might be the preferred way for the old farts like me who
> prefer mailing lists over a never-ending list of specific websites for
> each specific thing we are participating in.
>
> What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
> to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”

Is this note enough?
https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode

> or what's the
> easiest way to filter incoming mail into directories based on
> discuss.python.org categories,

Tags at the start of the Subject line work pretty well (though they can
change occasionally).

> how do I handle answers/threads,

> and finally, how to make this approach effective?

That depends on what's effective for you, I'm afraid. I read/skim
everything (except Users), so I might not need as much filtering as you.
In my experience, marking/muting a thread works about as well as for
regular e-mail threads -- the linearity is suboptimal, but not that bad.


> Note that I am capable of googling some of this stuff, but I am
> preferably looking for your personal tips, as I always assumed you are a
> mail person, like I am. If you prefer to use the RSS feeds, I am
> interested in tips there as well.

I don't use RSS feeds.
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On 15. 07. 22 20:59, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>
> > And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with
> client-side
> > filtering in Thunderbird.
>
> How do you handle threading?  I follow each (sub)thread through to it's
> end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything linear
> which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around,
> making it hard to follow.

I accepted that it's linear.

I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on: if
python-dev was used by everyone, rather than almost exclusively by
people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients),
we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.

I mean, I could grumble about threading and bottom-posting and
plain-text messages and IRC all day, but realistically, I'm not likely
to convince anyone who's not into those things already.
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On 15. 07. 22 21:13, Joannah Nanjekye wrote:
> I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization,
> for a platform whose future I don't know about.
>
> When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment
> with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving
> python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected obviously.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant here.

The "experiment" was introducing Discourse (discuss.python.org) to see
if people would like it. It looks like they do, since the Core
Development category on Discourse is more active than this mailing list
(python-dev).


>
> On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin, <encukou@gmail.com
> <mailto:encukou@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:
> - python-dev and discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> for
> design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org>. It seems that for most
> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>
> The discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> experiment has
> been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>
> is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org>, you're missing out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org>
> - Moving discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> up in the
> devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/
> <https://devguide.python.org/communication/>)
> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org>.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> allows
> editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used
> for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org
> <http://discuss.python.org> website,
> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss
> <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss> – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/
> <https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/>)
> for important questions and discussions.
>
> - You can use discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>'s
> “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss
was not as active as the mailing list. Understood.

My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable standards.

On Mon., Jul. 18, 2022, 4:41 p.m. Petr Viktorin, <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15. 07. 22 21:13, Joannah Nanjekye wrote:
> > I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization,
> > for a platform whose future I don't know about.
> >
> > When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment
> > with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving
> > python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected
> obviously.
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant here.
>
> The "experiment" was introducing Discourse (discuss.python.org) to see
> if people would like it. It looks like they do, since the Core
> Development category on Discourse is more active than this mailing list
> (python-dev).
>
>
> >
> > On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin, <encukou@gmail.com
> > <mailto:encukou@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> > communication channels, for example:
> > - python-dev and discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> for
> > design discussions,
> > - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> > - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> > - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
> >
> > While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> > between python-dev and discuss.python.org
> > <http://discuss.python.org>. It seems that for most
> > people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform
> –
> > even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
> >
> > The discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> experiment has
> > been going on for quite a while,
> > and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> > success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> > According to staff, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>
> > is much easier to moderate.. If
> > you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org
> > <http://discuss.python.org>, you're missing out.
> >
> > The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> > discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>.
> > Practically, this means:
> > - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> > <http://discuss.python.org>
> > - Moving discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> up in the
> > devguide communications page
> > (https://devguide.python.org/communication/
> > <https://devguide.python.org/communication/>)
> > - And that's it?
> >
> > I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> > discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> > auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org
> > <http://discuss.python.org>.
> >
> > To be clear, discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> allows
> > editing posts, which is frankly
> > handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used
> > for
> > adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> > mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in
> a
> > few places.
> >
> > We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org
> > <http://discuss.python.org> website,
> > but there are some ways to avoid it:
> >
> > - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss
> > <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss> – it's not e-mail, but
> many
> > email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering
> Council
> > issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/
> > <https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/>)
> > for important questions and discussions.
> >
> > - You can use discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>'s
> > “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> > you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> > messages locally.
> >
> > However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> > anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not
> aware
> > of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> > good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact
> when
> > we make the final decision.
> >
> >
> >
> > – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> > _______________________________________________
> > Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> > <mailto:python-dev@python.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> > <mailto:python-dev-leave@python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> > <https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/>
> > Message archived at
> >
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> > <
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> >
> > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> > <http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>
> >
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>

I think it's a great idea! :) [1]

LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from the mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; 3 - retro], and by and large, I think it was a success.

One of the comments in the retro was:
> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.

I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a separate discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. This would also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate previous discussion on a given topic.

[1] https://discuss.python.org/t/what-i-miss-here-coming-from-users-rust-lang-org/13859/9
[2] https://blog.llvm.org/posts/2022-01-07-moving-to-discourse/
[3] https://discourse.llvm.org/t/response-to-the-move-to-discourse-retrospective/63159
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>
> I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on:
> *if python-dev was used by everyone*, rather than almost exclusively by
> people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients),
> we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.
>

Don't forget that used to be the case. ;-)

Skip

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:15 PM Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
> I agree that the experiment has proven successful enough that there’s more value at this point in consolidating discussions.

We've only been running this experiment since 2017(?) so maybe it's
too soon to say it's a success? <wink>


-eric
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On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 5:21 AM Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.

This seems like a net win for the community so +1 from me. (For me
personally it amounts to disruption with little advantage, so I'd
probably be -0). However, I am not python-dev and discuss.python.org
is probably a better fit for most of the participants.)

(Message threading on discuss.python.org feels like a step backward in
usability though. This is especially true with long threads, support
for which (I expect) Discourse has not prioritized.)

My only real concern is one I've brought up before when we started
splitting discussions onto DPO (discuss.python.org), as well as with
the GitHub issues migration: message archives.

I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to
effective contribution, both in attracting/integrating new
contributors and in providing "offline" context for active
contributors. The existing archives have aided me personally so many
times in both ways.

There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth
asking about here:

1. search functionality on the [archive] web site
2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google
search with "site:...")
3. single archive vs. split archive

Regarding (1), currently it is relatively easy to search through
message archives on https://mail.python.org/archives/list/.... The
DPO UI search functionality seems fine.

Regarding (2), currently it's easy to search using other tools and the
results are clean (not noisy). With DPO, is that possible? (A quick
attempt was a complete failure.) Would the results be good enough?
Would they be noisier?

Regarding (3), it's a small thing but, IMHO, having a single archive
is valuable. Most notably (for me, at least), with a split archive it
becomes a little harder to make sure searches covered the full message
history of a given channel.

It would be nice if at least one of the sites could preserve *all* the
history. In the case of python-dev, either we'd forward all relevant
DPO messages to python-dev@python.org (or otherwise directly send them
to https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org) or
we'd import the archived mailing list into DPO. Or maybe it would
require more work than it would be worth?

> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.

FWIW, I've been using mailing list mode (for consumption) since we
started discuss.python.org and it's been fine. I've hit a
couple[1][2] minor annoyances, but overall I don't have any real
complaints. Mailing list mode is straightforward to configure, the
messages have a "mailing list" header set (for easy filtering), and
jumping over to the web UI to start a thread, respond (or react) is
trivial.

-eric


[1] My mobile email notifications format the messages weird.
[2] The messages are significantly noisier than regular (text) email.
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On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 11:48 AM <h.vetinari@gmx.com> wrote:
> LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from the mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; 3 - retro], and by and large, I think it was a success.
>
> One of the comments in the retro was:
> > Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.
>
> I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a separate discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. This would also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate previous discussion on a given topic.

+1

-eric
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On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye <nanjekyejoannah@gmail.com> wrote:
>I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss
>was not as active as the mailing list. Understood.
>
>My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable
>standards.

Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For
me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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On 7/20/22 17:35, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 18Jul2022 16:53, Joannah Nanjekye <nanjekyejoannah@gmail.com> wrote:

>> My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable
>> standards.
>
> Several of us use the email mode in Discourse. It works quite well. For
> me, both python-dev and the PDO posts land in my "python" local folder.

It works, but I wouldn't say "quite well" -- any thread from discourse is one long linear series of replies, and reading
them in chronological order means jumping around and trying to figure what is a reply to what.

--
~Ethan~
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Eric Snow writes:

> I consider the ability to search message archives to be essential to
> effective contribution[.]

+1

> There are relevant three aspects to archival and search that are worth
> asking about here:
>
> 1. search functionality on the [archive] web site
> 2. ability to search using other tools (e.g. my favorite: Google
> search with "site:...")
> 3. single archive vs. split archive

I can't speak to 1 and 2, and I can't speak to cost of resource usage
for 3, but it would be possible to have a Mailman list that has no
subscribers, prohibits subscription, and allows only a small number of
authorized posters, one of which would be the Discourse mail feed. As
long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current
threading algorithm would work reasonably well. I guess we would also
want to disable replies in HyperKitty (maybe that's already a
consequence of "no subscribers"?) I don't know how hard that would
be.

Steve

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