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On 21Jul2022 10:29, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenjturnbull@gmail.com> wrote:
>As long as Discourse provides the In-Reply-To header field, the current
>threading algorithm would work reasonably well.

Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
thread:

Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234f56cf6f3a661c1a@discuss.python.org>
In-Reply-To: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
References: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>

The first post has this:

Message-ID: <topic/17208.dc83577b18fc3ecc438ed42a@discuss.python.org>
References: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>

So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
submit a bug report.

In essense: The `References` and `In-Reply-To` headers cite a
_nonexistent_ message-id which just denotes the thread number in the web
forum.

By contrast, the message-id itself at least is nice and unique.

_However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a
message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and
that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. So your
local copy of the message, if you keep one (I do) it will be a distinct
duplicate message in your mail folder. I don't expect that to change.

Anyway:
- Discourse does provide `In-Reply-To` and `References`
- they're bogus
- they can be fixed (I'll submit a bug report, someone told me how to do
that...)

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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I'm -1 on moving to the walled garden, but I don't expect this to change
anyone's mind. I don't know if I'll move over to Discourse or not.

Cameron Simpson writes:

> Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
> headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
> thread:
>
> Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234f56cf6f3a661c1a@discuss.python.org>
> In-Reply-To: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
> References: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>

I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
puppy and weep.

> So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
> submit a bug report.

Thank you!

You may find it useful to cite RFC 5322, section 3.6.4, and emphasize
"unique" while mentioning the algorithm for populating References and
In-Reply-To presented there.

> _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send a
> message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and
> that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. [...]
> I don't expect that to change.

That's just plain obnoxious. Anybody who's in the CCs who
participates in "email mode" will get (practically speaking)
unfilterable duplicates, and (if there is offline discussion) a bogus
new thread.

I wonder if this goes all the way through to the backend database (ie,
the only id a message gets are its thread id, a timestamp, and some
way to ensure a total order in the case of equal timestamps), and the
only place in Discourse where the unique Message-ID appears is in the
outgoing message. In that case getting any sanity in Discourse email
could be very expensive for Discourse.

Steve
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h.vetinari@gmx.com schrieb am 18.07.22 um 18:04:
> One of the comments in the retro was:
>> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.

I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. There's an
unmaintained bridge to NNTP servers [1], but not an emulating interface
that would serve the available discussions via NNTP messages, so that users
can get them into their NNTP/Mail clients to read them in proper discussion
threads. I think adding that next to the existing web interface would serve
everyone's needs just perfectly.

Anyone up for giving that a try? It can't be *that* difficult. ;-)

Stefan


[1] https://github.com/sman591/discourse-nntp-bridge

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On 21Jul2022 13:25, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenjturnbull@gmail.com> wrote:
>Cameron Simpson writes:
> > Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
> > headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
> > thread:
> >
> > Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234f56cf6f3a661c1a@discuss.python.org>
> > In-Reply-To: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
> > References: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
>
>I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
>puppy and weep.
>
> > So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
> > submit a bug report.
>
>Thank you!

Bug report:

https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-email-messages-are-incorrectly-threaded/233499

>You may find it useful to cite RFC 5322, section 3.6.4, and emphasize
>"unique" while mentioning the algorithm for populating References and
>In-Reply-To presented there.

I've pointed them at it. I didn't belabor the id generation since their
ids seem ok. It's the referencing header which are broken.

> > _However_, someone participating in "email mode" will of course send
> > a
> > message with its own distinct message-id from their source system, and
> > that does not survive the email->discourse->email-out process. [...]
> > I don't expect that to change.
>
>That's just plain obnoxious. Anybody who's in the CCs who
>participates in "email mode" will get (practically speaking)
>unfilterable duplicates, and (if there is offline discussion) a bogus
>new thread.

Well, I think a number of mailing lists startyed do this to support DKIM
or DMARC or something, otherwise their message would amount to a forgery
if what they received. Never dug into it much. It's annoying, but not
nearly as annoying as broken threading.

>I wonder if this goes all the way through to the backend database (ie,
> the only id a message gets are its thread id, a timestamp, and some
>way to ensure a total order in the case of equal timestamps), and the
>only place in Discourse where the unique Message-ID appears is in the
>outgoing message. In that case getting any sanity in Discourse email
>could be very expensive for Discourse.

Personally I don't care how "expensive" it is. The email mode is, to me,
a _major_ feature of Discourse. I'm sure I'm not alone is hating forums
which require me to go to them (or, equally bad, send some kind of
summary of new things - I'm looking at you, Google Groups). That
Discourse does quite a good job of letting people participate via the
forum or email is very welcome. But it has to be done correctly.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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Le 21/07/2022 à 07:59, Stefan Behnel a écrit :
>
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have
> done that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of
> which I don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane
> seems to have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when
> I subscribed".
>
> It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. […]

+1000

For this switch to accommodate all use cases, Discourse really needs a
"lurking" story.

That's lacking right now, possibly by design (Discourse developers are
quite opinionated*, and anonymous reading seemingly doesn't fit their
worldview). Maybe they can be convinced, though…

By the way, I'm still trying the RSS way, but it doesn't seem to fit the
bill (lack of a stream of posts per category).

Cheers,
Baptiste

*not meant as a criticism: opinionated is good; it just makes it more
difficult to provide the main communication channel of a wide and
diverse community.
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Le 21/07/2022 à 03:29, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
>
> I can't speak to 1 and 2, and I can't speak to cost of resource usage
> for 3, but it would be possible to have a Mailman list that has no
> subscribers, prohibits subscription, and allows only a small number of
> authorized posters, one of which would be the Discourse mail feed.

Hi,

If GMANE would be allowed to subscribe, that would be a perfect fit!

Cheers,
baptiste
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On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 05:43:26PM -0700, Ethan Furman wrote:

> It works, but I wouldn't say "quite well" -- any thread from discourse is
> one long linear series of replies, and reading them in chronological order
> means jumping around and trying to figure what is a reply to what.

Sometimes, seemingly at random, Discourse will not email the first
message in a thread. No, it's not in my spam filter, I've checked.

In my experience, Discourse doesn't cope well with email replies that
use hard line breaks, breaking each line into its own paragraph -- but
only sometimes.

Discourse seems to insert blank lines between paragraphs in messages
sent by email, even in code blocks -- but only sometimes.

Even when it does't insert blank lines, Discourse seems to insert extra
carriage returns (^M) at the end of lines in messages it sends -- but
only sometimes.

Discourse seems to treat a row of hyphens (what should be a markdown
hrule) as the end of the post, and delete the hyphens and everything
after it -- but only sometimes.

Once, I've had Discourse seemingly randomly delete one line in the
middle of a code block for no apparent reason.

The bottom line is that Discourse's email works, but with a seemingly
never-ending parade of annoyances and frustrations.



--
Steve
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On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 12:19 AM Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> wrote:
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
> that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
> don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
> have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

+1

> It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. There's an
> unmaintained bridge to NNTP servers [1], but not an emulating interface
> that would serve the available discussions via NNTP messages, so that users
> can get them into their NNTP/Mail clients to read them in proper discussion
> threads. I think adding that next to the existing web interface would serve
> everyone's needs just perfectly.

Perhaps the possible mirroring-to-mailman that Steve (Turnbull)
mentioned would be enough to facilitate a continuity for NNTP?

-eric
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I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
names a bit confusing.

Skip
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On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 03:07, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
> discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>

No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
similar in purpose.

ChrisA
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On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 07:59:46 +0200
Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> wrote:
> h.vetinari@gmx.com schrieb am 18.07.22 um 18:04:
> > One of the comments in the retro was:
> >> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed for that long.
>
> I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have done
> that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of which I
> don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane seems to
> have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when I subscribed".

+1 as well (as in "that's what I do too").

Regards

Antoine.


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Hi, no I think "discord" refers to https://discord.com/

If discord is not finalised, we might also consider https://zulip.com/
which rust uses <https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/> and would (based on a
very quick look) appear to be more appropriate for python development's use
case?

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin


On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 at 18:06, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
> discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>
> Skip
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>

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
> discuss.python.org, just by another name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>
>
It's not the same. discuss.python.org is an instance of Discourse.

Discord is something completely something else.
Indeed the similarity is confusing.

> No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> similar in purpose.

Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
whatever). What's up with that? Do we really need yet another place
full of overlapping discussion channels?

Skip
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On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:20 AM Samuel Colvin <S@muelcolvin.com> wrote:

>
> If discord is not finalised, we might also consider https://zulip.com/
> which rust uses <https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/> and would (based on a
> very quick look) appear to be more appropriate for python development's use
> case?
>
>
>
We tried zulip in the past, it never got traction. I believe there was an
email saying that it's no longer monitored by core devs. We also removed it
from devguide.

For the core devs, Discord was chosen after discussions in the
python-committers:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/BVPITIYRECSGCX2JUTMT7F7CCCYQSK4K/#BVPITIYRECSGCX2JUTMT7F7CCCYQSK4K

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 03:17, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> > channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> > similar in purpose.
>
> Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
> whatever). What's up with that?

Everything's gotta be funded somehow.

ChrisA
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On 7/21/22 11:11, Mariatta wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro
> <skip.montanaro@gmail.com <mailto:skip.montanaro@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>, just by another
> name? I find the similarity in
> names a bit confusing.
>
>  
> It's not the same. discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> is an
> instance of Discourse.
>
> Discord is something completely something else.
>  Indeed the similarity is confusing.


As the wag said,

"These are only two hard things in computer science, cache invalidation
and naming things".


Add in IP lawyers and I think naming may have advanced to being the hardest.

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On 7/21/22 11:16, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>> No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
>> channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
>> similar in purpose.
>
> Thanks (and to the others who replied). It seems like they've tried to
> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
> whatever). What's up with that?

Discord has grown up in the gaming community, its use as a general chat
platform was possibly not anticipated... as one who is not at all
affected by gamification of things (e.g. I'm utterly unmotivated by
people trying to award badges for unlocking accomplishments, etc., but I
know it's considered to work for many people) if comes off seeming
silly, but I can just ignore that part.
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On 21/07/2022 18:53, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 7/21/22 11:11, Mariatta wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:05 AM Skip Montanaro
>> <skip.montanaro@gmail.com <mailto:skip.montanaro@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I have a perhaps stupid question. Is Discord the same as
>> discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>, just by another
>> name? I find the similarity in
>> names a bit confusing.
>>
>>
>> It's not the same. discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org> is an
>> instance of Discourse.
>>
>> Discord is something completely something else.
>>  Indeed the similarity is confusing.
>
>
> As the wag said,
>
> "These are only two hard things in computer science, cache invalidation
> and naming things".
>
>
Another wag said:

There are only two hard things in computer science: cache
invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.

> Add in IP lawyers and I think naming may have advanced to being the hardest.
>
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On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
> > channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
> > similar in purpose.
>
> Thanks (and to the others who replied).


FYI this multiple responses issue doesn't come up on Discourse because the
replies are shown in real-time (as is the "Skip is typing ..." at the
bottom).


> It seems like they've tried to
> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
> whatever). What's up with that?


It's for "funding" a Discord server and how Discord makes money (otherwise
the service is free).


> Do we really need yet another place
> full of overlapping discussion channels?
>

Discord isn't overlapping with Discourse. Think of Discord as replacing IRC
while also providing audio chat (and other things). For instance, people
who were working together to squash release blockers for b4 were chatting
live on Discord.

To demystify why you want to boost (I am in the python discord and other non gaming and gaming chats) it unlocks better features but the core experence of chat still exists . Basically voice chat goes up to 384kbps steams go up to 1080p quality and you get a 100MB upload limit.

I know that react and defcon use discord as a chat platform so it’s not just gaming. Having better steaming / audio chat can be good to help people and uploads can be things like python scripts .

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 21, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>
>> On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > No, Discord is a different thing; it does text and voice communication
>> > channels in real-time. If you're familiar with Slack, it's broadly
>> > similar in purpose.
>>
>> Thanks (and to the others who replied).
>
> FYI this multiple responses issue doesn't come up on Discourse because the replies are shown in real-time (as is the "Skip is typing ..." at the bottom).
>
>> It seems like they've tried to
>> make it a game, giving me the "opportunity" to buy boosts (or
>> whatever). What's up with that?
>
> It's for "funding" a Discord server and how Discord makes money (otherwise the service is free).
>
>> Do we really need yet another place
>> full of overlapping discussion channels?
>
> Discord isn't overlapping with Discourse. Think of Discord as replacing IRC while also providing audio chat (and other things). For instance, people who were working together to squash release blockers for b4 were chatting live on Discord.
> _______________________________________________
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On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 6:28 AM Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hron?ok wrote:
> > On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
> >> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
> >> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
> >> categorizing messages locally.
>
[...]

> > What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
> > to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”
>
> Is this note enough?
>
> https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode
>
[...]

So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not remotely
satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned,
I'm *only *subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not
-packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode
sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns
out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I
think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts
on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost
immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about,
but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle
warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get
everything regardless of other settings.

If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't care
about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll
pretty much quit following Python's development. Now, I'm not a very
important Python developer, I'm not a core dev, and my contributions are a
few bug reports and a few patches over many years. But if there's no way to
lurk on a modest-volume mailing list and contribute only occasionally,
you're not going to get nearly as many people paying attention. I'm sure I
could set up a whole suite of filters on my own end (e.g. discard any email
with a subject starting with "[py] [Users]"), but that's an absurd and
unnecessary burden, and it will only get worse the more categories you add
to discourse (and I think the ease of adding categories is supposed to be a
*feature*). This plan is going to drive developers like me away.

For discourse mailing list mode to be a reasonable substitute for
python-dev, it needs filtering on the sending end to work. Ideally there
would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that
exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list
mode overrides).

Rather than comparing the number of posters on discourse vs python-dev,
have we compared stats for how many people receive the messages?

On 7/21/22 6:42 PM, Steven Barker wrote:
> Ideally there would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list mode overrides).

Mailing list mode is not what you want.  Instead, turn mailing list mode off and set your email settings to these:



You can adjust the categories you receive email notifications for by changing your list of watched categories under the notification settings:

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 15:26 Baptiste Carvello <
devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:

> Le 21/07/2022 à 07:59, Stefan Behnel a écrit :
> >
> > I'm actually reading python-dev, c.l.py etc. through Gmane, and have
> > done that ever since I joined. Simply because it's a mailing list of
> > which I don't need a local (content) copy, and wouldn't want one. Gmane
> > seems to have a complete archive that's searchable, regardless of "when
> > I subscribed".
> >
> > It's really sad that Discourse lacks an NNTP interface. […]
>
> +1000
>
> For this switch to accommodate all use cases, Discourse really needs a
> "lurking" story.
>
> That's lacking right now, possibly by design (Discourse developers are
> quite opinionated*, and anonymous reading seemingly doesn't fit their
> worldview). Maybe they can be convinced, though…


Lurker here. :) I lurk, both on -ideas and -dev, primarily to stay
well-informed on new ideas coming down the pipeline, and occasionally (but
rarely) voice my two cents.

I signed up on Discourse after this thread started, and turned on mailing
list mode immediately. So far, I have no problems with that. It suits my
purpose just fine once I muted the Users forum. I might mute a few others
soon.

I consume the mailing lists (and now Discourse) through standard Gmail
interfaces (both the web interface and the official Android app), so I
cannot speak to the lack of proper threading (it's all linear anyway in
Gmail). I do use filters in Gmail to label threads by list, and I found
that Discourse plays nice with this: each forum, like each mailing list,
has its own mailing list attribute with a corresponding "list:" search
prefix in Gmail, so filtering, labeling, and organizing by forum is easy.
(Example: https://snipboard.io/WGF6Qz.jpg)