Mailing List Archive

I feel similarly as Steven. I'm even less important to the development of
CPython than he is. But like him, switching to Discourse means I simply
won't try to follow development.

Mailing list are friendly and easily manageable. In the small amount I've
used Discourse, it feels unwieldy and less friendly. More importantly, it
makes it "that other thing I have to go check." Email is something I will
automatically examine every day.

But again, I'm not the audience who matters, which I well recognize.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:50 PM Steven Barker <blckknght@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 6:28 AM Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hron?ok wrote:
>> > On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> >> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>> >> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
>> >> categorizing messages locally.
>>
> [...]
>
>> > What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
>> > to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”
>>
>> Is this note enough?
>>
>> https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode
>>
> [...]
>
> So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not remotely
> satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned,
> I'm *only *subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not
> -packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode
> sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns
> out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I
> think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts
> on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost
> immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about,
> but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle
> warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get
> everything regardless of other settings.
>
> If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't care
> about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll
> pretty much quit following Python's development. Now, I'm not a very
> important Python developer, I'm not a core dev, and my contributions are a
> few bug reports and a few patches over many years. But if there's no way to
> lurk on a modest-volume mailing list and contribute only occasionally,
> you're not going to get nearly as many people paying attention. I'm sure I
> could set up a whole suite of filters on my own end (e.g. discard any email
> with a subject starting with "[py] [Users]"), but that's an absurd and
> unnecessary burden, and it will only get worse the more categories you add
> to discourse (and I think the ease of adding categories is supposed to be a
> *feature*). This plan is going to drive developers like me away.
>
> For discourse mailing list mode to be a reasonable substitute for
> python-dev, it needs filtering on the sending end to work. Ideally there
> would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that
> exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list
> mode overrides).
>
> Rather than comparing the number of posters on discourse vs python-dev,
> have we compared stats for how many people receive the messages?
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 6:47 PM Steven Barker <blckknght@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 6:28 AM Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hron?ok wrote:
>> > On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
>> >> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>> >> subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or
>> >> categorizing messages locally.
>>
> [...]
>
>> > What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how
>> > to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode”
>>
>> Is this note enough?
>>
>> https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode
>>
> [...]
>
> So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not remotely
> satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned,
> I'm *only *subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not
> -packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode
> sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns
> out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I
> think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts
> on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost
> immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about,
> but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle
> warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get
> everything regardless of other settings.
>
> If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't care
> about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll
> pretty much quit following Python's development. Now, I'm not a very
> important Python developer, I'm not a core dev, and my contributions are a
> few bug reports and a few patches over many years. But if there's no way to
> lurk on a modest-volume mailing list and contribute only occasionally,
> you're not going to get nearly as many people paying attention. I'm sure I
> could set up a whole suite of filters on my own end (e.g. discard any email
> with a subject starting with "[py] [Users]"), but that's an absurd and
> unnecessary burden, and it will only get worse the more categories you add
> to discourse (and I think the ease of adding categories is supposed to be a
> *feature*). This plan is going to drive developers like me away.
>
> For discourse mailing list mode to be a reasonable substitute for
> python-dev, it needs filtering on the sending end to work. Ideally there
> would be a way to subscribe only to the things I care about. Maybe that
> exists, but it's buried in menus I don't understand (or which mailing list
> mode overrides).
>

Mailing list mode indeed turns on the entire firehose, but you can
selectively turn things off (like the Users category). If you go to a
category page, click the bell icon in the upper right, and choose Muted,
you'll stop getting emails from that category, even in mailing list mode. I
muted the Users category almost immediately, which drastically slowed the
firehose. I'm now monitoring to decide what other categories are annoying
enough to mute, but the flow is slow enough when combined with my Gmail
filters to not need immediate action like the Users category did.

On 21Jul2022 15:42, Steven Barker <blckknght@gmail.com> wrote:
>So last night I tried activating mailing list mode, and I'm not
>remotely
>satisfied with the experience so far. Where mailing lists are concerned,
>I'm *only *subscribed to python-dev. Not python-users, not -ideas, not
>-packaging (if that's still a thing). But Discourse's mailing list mode
>sends me messages for all of those things in such a volume that it drowns
>out any discussions on topics that would have shown up on python-dev (I
>think one PEP discussion message came in overnight, compared to 20+ posts
>on other tags). After the first two -users messages came in almost
>immediately, I tried telling discourse to mute the tags I don't care about,
>but it seems not to work at all. The page with the mailing list mode toggle
>warns that it overrides other email settings, so I think I just get
>everything regardless of other settings.

Aye. I jointed meta.discourse.org yesterday to submit a bug report about
the threading (which they acknowledge is a regession) and this morning I
turned off mailing list mode.

So:
- I still use mailing list mode for discuss.python.org; I'm abstractly
interested in everything, and I have an aggressive email filtering
system
- I'm not using email mode for meta.discourse.org; Gah!!!!

However: mailing list mode _is_ the firehose (minus muted topics and
categories - nb not tags).

With it off you can elect to receive messages as email for several
things:
- when you're sent a personal message (always/when away/never)
- when quoted, replied to, @ed or new activity in watched categories,
tags, topics (always/when away/never)
- there's an option for an activity summary (I set it to "weekly" for
meta.discourse.org)

So what you could do is watch the "Dev" category if you want the
equivalent of just python-dev.

I'm going to see how it plays out, but I expect that will let me get a
tightly limited email feed which I can treat like any other email list.

>If my only option is to be subscribed to a firehose of stuff I don't
>care about, I'm going to disable mailing list mode and if python-dev dies, I'll
>pretty much quit following Python's development.

As mentioned, mailing list mode seems to be the firehose. The other
"Emails" settings seem reasonably versatile to me on the face of it.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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OT:

Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?


dis·cord
/?diskôrd/
*noun*

1. 1.
disagreement between people.
"a prosperous family who showed no signs of discord"



“Naming things is hard” — but really?

-CHB



--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
- wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython

On 21Jul2022 17:46, Christopher Barker <pythonchb@gmail.com> wrote:
>OT:
>Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system
>“discord”?

I think it is a refreshing level of honesty about what live chat is
like. As in "discordant".

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Cameron Simpson writes:
> On 21Jul2022 17:46, Christopher Barker <pythonchb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >OT:
> >Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system
> >“discord”?
>
> I think it is a refreshing level of honesty about what live chat is
> like. As in "discordant".

I would refine "live chat" to "full-duplex multicast media"
(especially with rampant pseudonymity). Email included. ;-)

--
Ask me about RFCs 5321 and 5322!

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On 7/21/2022 8:46 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:
> OT:
>
> Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?

For games, most of which involve combat, it seems appropriate. For
CPython development, 'harmony' might be better.

--
Terry Jan Reedy
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Terry Reedy writes:
> On 7/21/2022 8:46 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:

> > Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?

> For games, most of which involve combat, it seems appropriate. For
> CPython development, 'harmony' might be better.

Already taken by the GNU Mailman community:
https://www.mailmanhost.com

:-)

Steve
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On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 07:06:47PM -0400, Edwin Zimmerman wrote:

> Mailing list mode is not what you want.? Instead, turn mailing list mode off and set your email settings to these:
>
>
>
> You can adjust the categories you receive email notifications for by changing your list of watched categories under the notification settings:

I think you may have missed actually inserting the settings.



--
Steve
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Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Reading this thread and thinking about discuss.python.org/Discourse - I'm
surprised no one is advocating github discussions
<https://docs.github.com/en/discussions>.

In particular organisation discussions
<https://github.blog/changelog/2022-04-12-organization-discussions/> would
provide an obvious central place for discussions that would be easy to find
and use for everyone.

Advantages of github discussions:

- Virtually all developers have a github account and are familiar with
github & GFM
- Github provides great support for participating or watching discussion
via email - Discourse is really bad at this (at least by default)
- GH discussions obviously integrate well with the rest of github -
links to issues & pull requests (including other repos), discussions can be
moved to other repos, issues can be created from discussions, issues can be
converted to discussions - e.g. if someone creates a bug report which
should really be a feature discussion
- No extra service to maintain or pay for
- GH discussions (unlike issues) provide good threading functionality
without the full treeview madness of hackernews etc.

Before going "all in" with discuss.python.org/Discourse I think GH
discussions should be seriously considered.

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin


On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 at 12:19, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> communication channels, for example:
> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>
> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>
> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
> out.
>
> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> discuss.python.org.
> Practically, this means:
> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
> - And that's it?
>
> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>
> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
> few places.
>
> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>
> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
> for important questions and discussions.
>
> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> messages locally.
>
> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
> we make the final decision.
>
>
>
> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:45 AM Samuel Colvin <S@muelcolvin.com> wrote:

> Reading this thread and thinking about discuss.python.org/Discourse - I'm
> surprised no one is advocating github discussions
> <https://docs.github.com/en/discussions>.
>

I think it's because discuss.python.org is what we decided to try years ago
at the 2018 core dev sprint (so nearly 4 years ago), while GitHub
Discussions would be a brand new thing to try and get people on board with.


>
> In particular organisation discussions
> <https://github.blog/changelog/2022-04-12-organization-discussions/> would
> provide an obvious central place for discussions that would be easy to find
> and use for everyone.
>
> Advantages of github discussions:
>
> - Virtually all developers have a github account and are familiar with
> github & GFM
>
>
Discourse lets you log in via GitHub. I'm not sure if Discourse is straight
Commonmark (probably is, though, since the co-creator of Discourse kicked
off Commonmark because of Discourse).


>
> - Github provides great support for participating or watching
> discussion via email - Discourse is really bad at this (at least by default)
> - GH discussions obviously integrate well with the rest of github -
> links to issues & pull requests (including other repos), discussions can be
> moved to other repos, issues can be created from discussions, issues can be
> converted to discussions - e.g. if someone creates a bug report which
> should really be a feature discussion
>
>
True, but that does make the discussion specific to the repo, which in this
instance would be CPython and somewhat the language itself. This doesn't
encompass something like packaging which has completely moved all
development discussions over to discuss.python.org (and people have been
generally happy with it). So I'm not sure if moving over to Discussions
would actually lead to discuss.python.org going anywhere if you were trying
to eliminate that need.


>
> - No extra service to maintain or pay for
>
> This is already true for discuss.python.org; Discourse is kindly donating
the hosting on their SaaS platform.

>
> - GH discussions (unlike issues) provide good threading functionality
> without the full treeview madness of hackernews etc.
>
> Before going "all in" with discuss.python.org/Discourse I think GH
> discussions should be seriously considered.
>

If you can get people excited enough to say they are willing to give it a
try, and the folks saying they are going to stop participating if/when we
move to Discourse would actually stay if we moved to Discussions, then we
can definitely talk about it.

-Brett


>
> Samuel
>
> --
>
> Samuel Colvin
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 at 12:19, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
>> communication channels, for example:
>> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
>> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
>> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
>> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>>
>> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
>> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
>> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
>> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>>
>> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
>> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
>> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
>> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
>> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
>> out.
>>
>> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
>> discuss.python.org.
>> Practically, this means:
>> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
>> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
>> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
>> - And that's it?
>>
>> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
>> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
>> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>>
>> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
>> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
>> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
>> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
>> few places.
>>
>> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
>> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>>
>> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
>> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
>> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
>> for important questions and discussions.
>>
>> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
>> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
>> messages locally.
>>
>> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
>> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
>> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
>> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
>> we make the final decision.
>>
>>
>>
>> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
>> _______________________________________________
>> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RNLXOVCSVA63YIGTQRONBXBY4PROWNMJ/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>

Hi Brett, I understand your points.

I think the main point of difference is the gap in usability between GitHub
discussions and Discourse - I think it's massive, but I understand others
will be less enamoured by GitHub and less frustrated by Discourse than me.

One correction:

but that does make the discussion specific to the repo


With Organisation Discussions
<https://github.blog/changelog/2022-04-12-organization-discussions/>,
discussions are attached to the organisation, not a repr.

Samuel

--

Samuel Colvin


On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 at 19:45, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 3:45 AM Samuel Colvin <S@muelcolvin.com> wrote:
>
>> Reading this thread and thinking about discuss.python.org/Discourse -
>> I'm surprised no one is advocating github discussions
>> <https://docs.github.com/en/discussions>.
>>
>
> I think it's because discuss.python.org is what we decided to try years
> ago at the 2018 core dev sprint (so nearly 4 years ago), while GitHub
> Discussions would be a brand new thing to try and get people on board with.
>
>
>>
>> In particular organisation discussions
>> <https://github.blog/changelog/2022-04-12-organization-discussions/> would
>> provide an obvious central place for discussions that would be easy to find
>> and use for everyone.
>>
>> Advantages of github discussions:
>>
>> - Virtually all developers have a github account and are
>> familiar with github & GFM
>>
>>
> Discourse lets you log in via GitHub. I'm not sure if Discourse is
> straight Commonmark (probably is, though, since the co-creator of Discourse
> kicked off Commonmark because of Discourse).
>
>
>>
>> - Github provides great support for participating or watching
>> discussion via email - Discourse is really bad at this (at least by default)
>> - GH discussions obviously integrate well with the rest of github -
>> links to issues & pull requests (including other repos), discussions can be
>> moved to other repos, issues can be created from discussions, issues can be
>> converted to discussions - e.g. if someone creates a bug report which
>> should really be a feature discussion
>>
>>
> True, but that does make the discussion specific to the repo, which in
> this instance would be CPython and somewhat the language itself. This
> doesn't encompass something like packaging which has completely moved all
> development discussions over to discuss.python.org (and people have been
> generally happy with it). So I'm not sure if moving over to Discussions
> would actually lead to discuss.python.org going anywhere if you were
> trying to eliminate that need.
>
>
>>
>> - No extra service to maintain or pay for
>>
>> This is already true for discuss.python.org; Discourse is kindly
> donating the hosting on their SaaS platform.
>
>>
>> - GH discussions (unlike issues) provide good threading functionality
>> without the full treeview madness of hackernews etc.
>>
>> Before going "all in" with discuss.python.org/Discourse I think GH
>> discussions should be seriously considered.
>>
>
> If you can get people excited enough to say they are willing to give it a
> try, and the folks saying they are going to stop participating if/when we
> move to Discourse would actually stay if we moved to Discussions, then we
> can definitely talk about it.
>
> -Brett
>
>
>>
>> Samuel
>>
>> --
>>
>> Samuel Colvin
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 at 12:19, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Currently development discussions are split between multiple
>>> communication channels, for example:
>>> - python-dev and discuss.python.org for design discussions,
>>> - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
>>> - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
>>> - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
>>>
>>> While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
>>> between python-dev and discuss.python.org. It seems that for most
>>> people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
>>> even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
>>>
>>> The discuss.python.org experiment has been going on for quite a while,
>>> and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
>>> success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
>>> According to staff, discuss.python.org is much easier to moderate.. If
>>> you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org, you're missing
>>> out.
>>>
>>> The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
>>> discuss.python.org.
>>> Practically, this means:
>>> - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
>>> - Moving discuss.python.org up in the devguide communications page
>>> (https://devguide.python.org/communication/)
>>> - And that's it?
>>>
>>> I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
>>> discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
>>> auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org.
>>>
>>> To be clear, discuss.python.org allows editing posts, which is frankly
>>> handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used for
>>> adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
>>> mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
>>> few places.
>>>
>>> We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org website,
>>> but there are some ways to avoid it:
>>>
>>> - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
>>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss – it's not e-mail, but many
>>> email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
>>> issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/)
>>> for important questions and discussions.
>>>
>>> - You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which
>>> subscribes
>>> you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
>>> messages locally.
>>>
>>> However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
>>> anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
>>> of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
>>> good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
>>> we make the final decision.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
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>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/VHFLDK43DSSLHACT67X4QA3UZU73WYYJ/
>>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>

One thing I’ve noticed and found disappointing with discourse is that it
seems to lose the markdown formatting in both emails and quoting in replies.

It really effects the readability, partly when there’s code that loses its
formatting :-(

I don’t know that that affects this discussion-/ but maybe one more big
report / feature request.

And it’s one more pro for GH discussions- GH is built for code, so much
more likely to support it well.

Coincidentally, I just noticed GH discussions today — the setuptools
project is using it.

-CHB





--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)

Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
- wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython

On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:42 PM Steven Barker <blckknght@gmail.com> wrote:

> So last night I tried activating mailing list mode [...]
>

To follow up on my own post, here's an update. I figured out that I'd done
something incorrectly the first time I tried muting certain categories of
posts on Discourse. I think I just failed to save my choices in the
settings screen, and I got it right the second time I tried. The firehose
was tamed to a reasonable rate of flow.

I do still think that experience is much worse than signing up for just the
python-dev mailing list. While excluding the Users (now Python Help), Ideas
and Packaging categories has cut out most of the stuff I don't care about,
there are a lot of low-volume categories that I probably don't care about
either, but I don't know enough about them to tell. I'd rather be able to
opt-in to categories I want instead of opting out to everything I don't
want. I have low confidence in my understanding of Discourse settings, but
I don't currently believe that setting a category as Watched does the same
thing as mailing list mode, for that category only, but I could be wrong
(I've not tried it). I don't want summary emails, and that seems to be the
only thing on offer. And there isn't a generalized Dev category that covers
the range of topics that the python-dev mailing list does.

So to give my final takeaway: It might be possible for Discourse to replace
Python-dev, even for those who wish to get their messages by email. But the
user experience of signing up is vastly worse, and will need much more than
a single paragraph in the dev-guide for most people to have a satisfying
experience with mailing list mode (or some other mode that I don't yet know
how to use).

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022, 19:33 Steven Barker <blckknght@gmail.com> wrote:

> So to give my final takeaway: It might be possible for Discourse to
> replace Python-dev, even for those who wish to get their messages by email.
> But the user experience of signing up is vastly worse, and will need much
> more than a single paragraph in the dev-guide for most people to have a
> satisfying experience with mailing list mode (or some other mode that I
> don't yet know how to use).
>

Do please write out some notes about what needs to be added/updated while
it's still fresh for you; even if it's not a complete PR, I would be happy
to help you get it merged into the devguide. It's been too long since I
(and probably many of the rest of us) got things how we want them to
remember clearly enough what needs documentation.


--
Zach
(On a phone)

>

On 21. 07. 22 9:01, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 21Jul2022 13:25, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephenjturnbull@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Cameron Simpson writes:
>>> Discourse does not do `In-Reply-To:` very well at all. Here's some
>>> headers from the _second_ post in the "Core dev sprint this year"
>>> thread:
>>>
>>> Message-ID: <topic/17208/60568.898edf234f56cf6f3a661c1a@discuss.python.org>
>>> In-Reply-To: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
>>> References: <topic/17208@discuss.python.org>
>>
>> I'm tempted to write something uncivil, but instead I'm gonna go hug a
>> puppy and weep.
>>
>>> So at present Discourse's email implementation is buggy. I need to
>>> submit a bug report.
>>
>> Thank you!
>
> Bug report:
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-email-messages-are-incorrectly-threaded/233499

Thank you very much for reporting it and working with Discourse devs!
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Le 18/07/2022 à 13:45, Baptiste Carvello a écrit :
> Le 15/07/2022 à 17:52, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
>>
>> For everything on Discourse, the RSS feed is at
>> https://discuss.python.org/latest.rss
>> For a specific categoriy/topic, append .rss to the Web URL.
>
> [...]
> Is there a way to access all posts through the mail/RSS client,
> preferably with a threaded view?

TL;DR: almost there, but not there yet. A few fixes are needed in
Discourse for RSS to become a viable reading strategy.

Hi all,

reviving this old thread to try and answer my own question. For the last
month (which included a ten-day vacation), I've tried using core-dev.rss
or posts.rss (with Thunderbird). Both give a very frustrating feeling of
"almost there, but definitely not there yet":

* core-dev.rss: does its job at listing which topics get discussed. The
first post is usually enough to decide whether I'm interested or not.
Being a web browser below the surface, Thunderbird even has a "web page
mode" that permits reading the discourse thread page embedded in it
(much slower that text, but surprisingly without nag screens).

Except that threads older than a few days are scrubbed from the rss
file, even when the thread continues. So when I come back from vacation,
I not only lose past discussions (which is fair game), but also still
current ones.

Also, core-dev.rss can provide no indication when new activity happens
on a given thread, so I have to reopen them all in "web page mode"
(slowwwww) just to check.

* posts.rss: can be used efficiently together with Thunderbird's sorting
features. I first sort by "date" to find current discussions, select an
interesting post, them sort by "object" to see the full thread.

The problem is with the volume. Not only are all messages included, but
Discourse doesn't provide the "category" rss tag, which Thunderbird
could use to tag the messages.

Adding a per-category posts.rss has been a feature request to Discourse
since 2016 [1], but "hasn’t happened yet", as the Discourse developers
put it. No patch was asked for, so I presume they just see the use case
as very unimportant.

[1]: https://meta.discourse.org/t/rss-feed-for-category-latest/37192

Perhaps someone with an official status in the Python community could
approach the Discourse developers and weight in so that:

* still current threads are not so aggressively scrubbed from core-dev.rss;

and/or
* "category" tags are added to posts.rss;

and/or
* per-category posts.rss are finally implemented.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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On 15Jul2022 13:26, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>To me, that’s the biggest negative of Discourse, and I definitely prefer threaded discussions. Unfortunately though, much like top posting <wink>, I think that horse is out of the barn, what with other forums like GitHub being linear.

On Jul 15, 2022, at 11:59, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> How do you handle threading? I follow each (sub)thread through to
>> it's end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything
>> linear which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping
>> around, making it hard to follow.

Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This
is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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> Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin

I’m not sure what “working correctly” means. Do you have some examples on discuss.python.org where threading is used? Is this something that previous discussions get for free or only new replies? I’m not finding much information about this feature on the Discourse site.

-Barry

On 27Sep2022 11:14, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
>> Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin
>
>I’m not sure what “working correctly” means. Do you have some examples
>on discuss.python.org where threading is used? Is this something that
>previous discussions get for free or only new replies? I’m not finding
>much information about this feature on the Discourse site.

The email side of Discourse now correctly sets the In-Reply-To and
References headers, so that the email side discussions no longer appear
"flat" and threads can be read in order. Example View of a recent thread
from my mailer:

28Sep2022 01:58 Stone Zhong via N ?> discuss-ideas 5.7K
27Sep2022 19:21 Serhiy Storchak N ??> discuss-ideas 6.1K
27Sep2022 19:16 Václav Brožík v N ?> discuss-ideas 7.2K
27Sep2022 18:57 Serhiy Storchak N ?> discuss-ideas 6.1K
27Sep2022 17:07 Stone Zhong via N [Py] [Ideas] Improve dqeue discuss-ideas 7.5K

(I sort my email a bit backwards.) This would have been a flat
nontopologically ordered grouping a few days ago.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>
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Oh, I see, thanks. This is for the email interface, not the web interface.

-Barry

> On Sep 27, 2022, at 13:49, Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au> wrote:
>
> On 27Sep2022 11:14, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
>>> Threading on the Python Discourse should now be working correctly. This is the good work of Martin Brennan: https://meta.discourse.org/u/martin
>>
>> I’m not sure what “working correctly” means. Do you have some examples on discuss.python.org where threading is used? Is this something that previous discussions get for free or only new replies? I’m not finding much information about this feature on the Discourse site.
>
> The email side of Discourse now correctly sets the In-Reply-To and References headers, so that the email side discussions no longer appear "flat" and threads can be read in order. Example View of a recent thread from my mailer:
>
> 28Sep2022 01:58 Stone Zhong via N ?> discuss-ideas 5.7K
> 27Sep2022 19:21 Serhiy Storchak N ??> discuss-ideas 6.1K
> 27Sep2022 19:16 Václav Brožík v N ?> discuss-ideas 7.2K
> 27Sep2022 18:57 Serhiy Storchak N ?> discuss-ideas 6.1K
> 27Sep2022 17:07 Stone Zhong via N [Py] [Ideas] Improve dqeue discuss-ideas 7.5K
>
> (I sort my email a bit backwards.) This would have been a flat nontopologically ordered grouping a few days ago.
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs@cskk.id.au>

What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?

Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?

Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

Victor
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On 01. 12. 22 17:28, Victor Stinner wrote:
> What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
> again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?

PEPs must be announced on Discourse.
For discussions you can use any medium. A list, Discord, IRC, in-person
chat...

> Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?

There's no issue with replying to python-dev.
If you want to reach a wider audience than python-dev, move to Discourse.

> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

If people are using it, and mods are moderating it, no.


– Petr (as myself, without authority)
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org> wrote:

>
> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>

I'd be in favor of this. Or at least setting up an auto-responder
suggesting people post on discuss.python.org instead.

-gps

Le 02/12/2022 à 10:09, Gregory P. Smith a écrit :
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 8:37 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@python.org
> <mailto:vstinner@python.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?
>
>
> I'd be in favor of this.

Why? Californian firms won't let their employees use an unmoderated
forum for fear of liability: OK, so be it. But that's no reason to force
other people to use tools they dislike. "Modern tools" hegemonism is
little more than pure intolerance.

Or at least setting up an auto-responder
> suggesting people post on discuss.python.org <http://discuss.python.org>
> instead.

Just put a line in the list signature stating that discussions requiring
core-dev attention should happen on discourse, and be done.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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