Mailing List Archive

Dear James,

As I made clear in our conversation yesterday, this happened to me, but has
can and could have happened to almost everyone of the other participants at
this conference.

Yes, we need to respect the privacy of the people who reported they were
uncomfortable, and it is a very very very sad thing they have been
uncomfortable.
But this whole situation makes me very uncomfortable. I am trying to be
always as friendly as possible, to help anyone the best as possible, it is
sad for me to feel that we do not know any longer if you help someone if
you are then still safe or getting reported about you.

In the past 24 hours I have been touched (hands, hugs, hand on shoulder,
etc) over 50 times by various people, many I know, some I don't. Only once
I was asked if I was fine with it. In many regions in the world it is
normal to shake hands, hug someone, etc etc. We do need to be aware of that
in some cultures this is not common, as well as individuals do not find it
comfortable. We also need to be aware that we as humans cannot switch off
the way we are. We need to create a friendly space for *everyone*.
To my feeling the focus is too much on not giving some people a bad
feeling, but we also must respect the nature of people, how people normally
are, because if we don't, we create an unfriendly space for them.

Now too many people are scared to touch someone else, scared to make a
mistake. That is bad. It is good to have awareness of cultural differences,
it is good if everyone tries to respect each others personal space.

It is not right that if someone tries to be nice, this gives a bad feeling
to the other.
If then someone gets punished ("action is taken"), we are putting the
health of our community at risk.

You said to me in our conversation yesterday that you do not recommend me
to send the earlier mail I did send. I can understand why you ask this, but
for my feeling I had no other choice. Every day many many people greet me
and ask me how I am feeling. If I am feeling bad, I say so. I am too
emotional to explain it to every one of them.
A second reason I raised attention for what happened to me, is because the
whole goal of the friendly space policy is to create a friendly space,
while now it is actually an unfriendly space for many just because of the
action you took.
In my case, you say it is not punishment, but it has bad consequences that
are only a placebo and do not help to solve the situation and certainly
does not improve the situation. That is a very bad thing.

The friendly space policy is intended to create a friendly space for
everyone, now however many perceive an unfriendly space, that is a serious
problem. We need to get a better and balanced situation in how is dealt
with these situations.

At this conference it might be a bit early to discuss the topic in general,
but still I think it we need to be aware that this problem exist.
I also think we need to have a dialogue in our movement about this kind of
situations where people perceive harassment while the other has the best
intentions.


Romaine



2018-07-20 12:28 GMT+02:00 James Alexander <jalexander@wikimedia.org>:

> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T&S who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>
> As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
> won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
> always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
> process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
> willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
> us around the conference.
>
> James
>
> *James Alexander*
> Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:40 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20 July 2018 at 09:23, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> wrote:
>>
>> > I trust that [...] the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in
>> > their implementation
>>
>> I note that Romaine does not mention the team in his email, only that
>> there was a "demand" that he stand down; he did not say who made this
>> demand.
>>
>> Indeed, the only mention of the T&S team before yours was my call for
>> them to support a member of the community who seems to feel he has
>> been discriminated against because of the effects of his hearing
>> issue.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
> So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
> badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
> need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
> that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may
> be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?

+1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page
already on the wiki, where to add it?).

If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice
"Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn"
<http://www.ediplomat.com/np/cultural_etiquette/ce_fi.htm>, but not
everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette
matrix for 200 cultures.

(At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers
and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which
assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of
some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)

Federico

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I have just read through the long thread of replies and I am appalled that
Romaine was asked to "step down" for safety concerns of an individual (or
several individuals?) arising from his standing too close or speaking too
loud or whatever. Is THIS really a behaviour that can put someone at risk?
And if a risk has been identified out of such, may we please be informed by
the SuSa team not of the details, but at least of the supposed risk?

Romaine is the first person I ever met at my first Wikimania (Mexico City)
and he is always on his feet all day doing a million different things to
facilitate the event. He is sweet, helpful, with a great sense of humour
and I can't imagine that anyone who has been to so much as a single
Wikimania would think otherwise. So, very plainly and openly, as we are
accustomed in the open movement we so passionately follow, may we please
have an explanation as to which "friendly space" code of conduct he has
breached to deserve being asked to step down? And on top of that, being
further stressed by the criticism that he has been e in ths thread? The
only GOOD thing that I see as possibly resulting from this discussion was
what Florence (if I recall correctly) suggested: a sticker indicating which
people are offended by loud speaking and close proximity, so that,this
doesn't happen again (a sticker which I will most certainly NOT be sporting
on my badge)

Romaine, a big THANK YOU for all that you do for Wikimanias. I always look
forward to "brushing shoulders" with you. A big warm hug from your Greek
friend :)

Mina

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 18:21 Federico Leva (Nemo), <nemowiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
> > So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
> > badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
> > need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
> > that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may
> > be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?
>
> +1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page
> already on the wiki, where to add it?).
>
> If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice
> "Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn"
> <http://www.ediplomat.com/np/cultural_etiquette/ce_fi.htm>, but not
> everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette
> matrix for 200 cultures.
>
> (At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers
> and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which
> assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of
> some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

jeez*, if people feel offended by a loud voice, and instead of moving away
are prompted to formally complain, and if a touch on the shoulder is
considered harrassment, something is deeply wrong. Let's _not_ cultivate
sensitivitism by way of a badges-turned set of interdictions. It's like in
constitutional law: Practical concordance = people's sensitivities must
take 2nd place where to "respect" them becomes unworkable for the rest of
the world.


*bearing in mind what Lodewijk said about not knowing the full story


Am Fr., 20. Juli 2018 um 19:12 Uhr schrieb Mina Theofilatou <
saintfevrier@gmail.com>:

> I have just read through the long thread of replies and I am appalled that
> Romaine was asked to "step down" for safety concerns of an individual (or
> several individuals?) arising from his standing too close or speaking too
> loud or whatever. Is THIS really a behaviour that can put someone at risk?
> And if a risk has been identified out of such, may we please be informed by
> the SuSa team not of the details, but at least of the supposed risk?
>
> Romaine is the first person I ever met at my first Wikimania (Mexico City)
> and he is always on his feet all day doing a million different things to
> facilitate the event. He is sweet, helpful, with a great sense of humour
> and I can't imagine that anyone who has been to so much as a single
> Wikimania would think otherwise. So, very plainly and openly, as we are
> accustomed in the open movement we so passionately follow, may we please
> have an explanation as to which "friendly space" code of conduct he has
> breached to deserve being asked to step down? And on top of that, being
> further stressed by the criticism that he has been e in ths thread? The
> only GOOD thing that I see as possibly resulting from this discussion was
> what Florence (if I recall correctly) suggested: a sticker indicating which
> people are offended by loud speaking and close proximity, so that,this
> doesn't happen again (a sticker which I will most certainly NOT be sporting
> on my badge)
>
> Romaine, a big THANK YOU for all that you do for Wikimanias. I always look
> forward to "brushing shoulders" with you. A big warm hug from your Greek
> friend :)
>
> Mina
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 18:21 Federico Leva (Nemo), <nemowiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
>> > So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
>> > badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
>> > need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
>> > that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we
>> may
>> > be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?
>>
>> +1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page
>> already on the wiki, where to add it?).
>>
>> If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice
>> "Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn"
>> <http://www.ediplomat.com/np/cultural_etiquette/ce_fi.htm>, but not
>> everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette
>> matrix for 200 cultures.
>>
>> (At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers
>> and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which
>> assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of
>> some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)
>>
>> Federico
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Ciao Romaine,

I have not understood (really)... but people cannot tell you, politely,
"don't stay so close to me" or "don't touch my shoulders" or "don't
speak so loud" instead of reporting to someone else?

Kind regards


On 19/07/2018 21:30, Romaine Wiki wrote:
>
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry,
> not my intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do
> hear myself much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud,
> to tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close
> to them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that
> gave anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my
> bad hearing I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to
> respect the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the
> conference to feel well.
>
>

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was
invoked to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because
of in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public
but the reason of removal was kept secret.

The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it is
very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as a
punishment.

I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal
sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from
different cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is
counter-productive to use Friendly Space this way, because other
Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the appropriate behaviour is supposed to
be.

I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But
from what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that
this incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T&S and the
people involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his
removal as an organiser showed mis-handling of process.

Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing
well. We did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but
couldn't agree on something better at the time... The doors of improvement
always stay open for the Wikimedia movement.

--Deryck

On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander <jalexander@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T&S who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>
> As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
> won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
> always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
> process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
> willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
> us around the conference.
>
> James
>
> *James Alexander*
> Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>

I believe the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the future, is to have tags specifically to indicate a need for personal space or something.

From what I have read so far, Romaine has done nothing "out of the ordinary" (based on my cultural perspective); and he doesn't deserve this kind of treatment/sanction/punishment/etc.

I should also state that I have met Romaine a couple of times, and he is indeed a very nice man, who always means the best.

Sam.

On 25 Jul 2018 16:41, Deryck Chan <deryckchan@gmail.com> wrote:
This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was invoked to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because of in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public but the reason of removal was kept secret.

The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it is very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as a punishment.

I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from different cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is counter-productive to use Friendly Space this way, because other Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the appropriate behaviour is supposed to be.

I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But from what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that this incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T&S and the people involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his removal as an organiser showed mis-handling of process.

Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing well. We did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but couldn't agree on something better at the time... The doors of improvement always stay open for the Wikimedia movement.

--Deryck

On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander <jalexander@wikimedia.org<mailto:jalexander@wikimedia.org>> wrote:
Hey all,

I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel even less safe and make victims of everyone.

Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T&S who generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the least amount of actions possible.

I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday) that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.

As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly, won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of us around the conference.

James

James Alexander
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation

I look forward to "hug me" / "don't touch me" stickers being issued next
year Q(^_^Q)

Indeed we do "don't photograph me" stickers already so "personal space
needed" stickers sound like a natural extension.

Deryck
(multicultural / "hug me")

On 27 July 2018 at 15:31, Sam Oyeyele <samoye_@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I believe the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the future, is
> to have tags specifically to indicate a need for personal space or
> something.
>
> From what I have read so far, Romaine has done nothing "out of the
> ordinary" (based on my cultural perspective); and he doesn't deserve this
> kind of treatment/sanction/punishment/etc.
>
> I should also state that I have met Romaine a couple of times, and he is
> indeed a very nice man, who always means the best.
>
> Sam.
>
> On 25 Jul 2018 16:41, Deryck Chan <deryckchan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was
> invoked to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because
> of in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public
> but the reason of removal was kept secret.
>
> The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it
> is very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as
> a punishment.
>
> I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal
> sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from
> different cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is
> counter-productive to use Friendly Space this way, because other
> Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the appropriate behaviour is supposed to
> be.
>
> I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But
> from what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that
> this incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T&S and the
> people involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his
> removal as an organiser showed mis-handling of process.
>
> Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing
> well. We did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but
> couldn't agree on something better at the time... The doors of improvement
> always stay open for the Wikimedia movement.
>
> --Deryck
>
> On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander <jalexander@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T&S who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>
> As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
> won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
> always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
> process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
> willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
> us around the conference.
>
> James
>
> *James Alexander*
> Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>