Mailing List Archive

I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
"don't do it".

Hugs,

L.

Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Sad news indeed! So sorry to read this and I can at least say that I am
only grateful for your thoughtful help and clear explanations at Wikimedia
events I have attended in the past.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Luca Martinelli <martinelliluca@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
> "don't do it".
>
> Hugs,
>
> L.
>
> Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> ha
> scritto:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>>
>> What has happened?
>> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
>> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
>> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
>> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
>> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>>
>> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
>> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
>> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
>> I might also stand closer to people.
>> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
>> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
>> feel well.
>>
>> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
>> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
>> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
>> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
>> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
>> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>>
>>
>> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
>> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
>> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
>> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
>> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
>> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
>> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>>
>> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
>> but I will be around.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Hi Romain,

I haven't met you in person but you have been very helpful to me and my
team on countless occasion.

I am really sad to hear this news. I am not in Capetown, I would have love
to meet you. Members of Wikimedia User Group, Shola and Sam are in
Capetown and may reach out to you.

Regards,

Isaac

On Jul 19, 2018 8:48 PM, "Jane Darnell" <jane023@gmail.com> wrote:

Sad news indeed! So sorry to read this and I can at least say that I am
only grateful for your thoughtful help and clear explanations at Wikimedia
events I have attended in the past.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Luca Martinelli <martinelliluca@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
> "don't do it".
>
> Hugs,
>
> L.
>
> Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> ha
> scritto:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>>
>> What has happened?
>> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
>> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
>> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
>> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
>> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>>
>> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
>> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
>> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
>> I might also stand closer to people.
>> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
>> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
>> feel well.
>>
>> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
>> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
>> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
>> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
>> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
>> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>>
>>
>> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
>> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
>> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
>> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
>> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
>> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
>> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>>
>> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
>> but I will be around.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Sad to read this Romaine...

I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".
Some people can perceive some helpful actions as damaging (I certainly do
in some contexts) but it is not good reason to stop helping. I would
suggest more personal responsibility for those who perceive you speaking
loudly and standing closely to ask you do it in other way. I remember no
one time when Wikimanian refused to do so if gently and clearly asked.

Sleep well and rethink tommorow
KuboF Hromoslav

D?a štvrtok 19. júla 2018 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> napísal(a):

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
>

--
KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)

Hi Romaine,

I am sad to hear about this, it may well tarnish the very good opinion I
have had so far about this year's Wikimania.
I am also quite sorry to say that I do not know if we have met in person, I
have such a bad memory, so please forgive me if we know each other.
I would dare to suggest that you stick around, I know that it would be
quite difficult for you, and I hope that some of our WMF staff will reach
out to you, but if you show up tomorrow I feel certain that you will find
the support of a lot of wikimedians you have been helpful to. Please
reconsider...

Best regards
Gabriel

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 10:03 PM KuboF Hromoslav <kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sad to read this Romaine...
>
> I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
> helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".
> Some people can perceive some helpful actions as damaging (I certainly do
> in some contexts) but it is not good reason to stop helping. I would
> suggest more personal responsibility for those who perceive you speaking
> loudly and standing closely to ask you do it in other way. I remember no
> one time when Wikimanian refused to do so if gently and clearly asked.
>
> Sleep well and rethink tommorow
> KuboF Hromoslav
>
> D?a štvrtok 19. júla 2018 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> napísal(a):
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>>
>> What has happened?
>> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
>> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
>> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
>> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
>> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>>
>> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
>> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
>> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
>> I might also stand closer to people.
>> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
>> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
>> feel well.
>>
>> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
>> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
>> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
>> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
>> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
>> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>>
>>
>> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
>> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
>> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
>> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
>> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
>> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
>> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>>
>> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
>> but I will be around.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

KuboF Hromoslav, 20/07/2018 00:03:
> I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
> helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".

Indeed, or in Italian "chi non fa non sbaglia". I hope in the future
Wikimania will be inclusive and able to foster collaboration between
good spirited people even if they're "different".

Which reminds me, these days some interesting things happened in
Johannesburg around Mandela day.
https://youtu.be/9P3c8wAETjc
https://youtu.be/mviqiDKIqDc?t=2h13m10s

Federico

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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi Romaine, hi everybody,

it is very painful for me to read this.

I have hearing problems myself, so I sometimes speak too loud, I may not
hear someone calling me, I may walk around someone to get in a position
where I can hear him/her well, etc.

These behaviors may look rude, but as a movement we should be able to deal
with them without asking people to step down.

Jaqen

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus>.
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

Dear Romaine,

my personal opnion on this: You probably (as most of us) fell victim to
today's spreading zeitgeist of taking offence in very small transgressions.
This doesn't only concern the so-called "snowflake generation
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Snowflake>", but has morphed into
a general culture of sensitivities that serve identity building purposes.

While this started as well-meant protection of minorities and people with
special needs against normative disadvantages, it has lead to a mindset
where the civil exercise of hiding one's sensitivities in order to make
human interaction work has almost entirely vanished.

In other words: It is crucial for civilised societies that everyone in them
is willing (ability is not the problem) to endure other people's quirks,
shortcomings and unintentional transgressions to some extent. Instead, it
has become a matter of identity to express anything that one is in the
slightest way offended by, and demand protection against that.

This development IMHO has to stop, if we don't want to end up in a totally
atomised, solidarity-free society. I hope you continue to support our event.

Best
John



Am Fr., 20. Juli 2018 um 09:28 Uhr schrieb Federico Leva (Nemo) <
nemowiki@gmail.com>:

> KuboF Hromoslav, 20/07/2018 00:03:
> > I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
> > helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".
>
> Indeed, or in Italian "chi non fa non sbaglia". I hope in the future
> Wikimania will be inclusive and able to foster collaboration between
> good spirited people even if they're "different".
>
> Which reminds me, these days some interesting things happened in
> Johannesburg around Mandela day.
> https://youtu.be/9P3c8wAETjc
> https://youtu.be/mviqiDKIqDc?t=2h13m10s
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> - People say I have been talking to loud

> Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself

> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.

As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
discriminated against in this way.

I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi all,

while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision
with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.

As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear
several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us
also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
harder and/or harm individuals.

If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that
you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a
conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share
some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably
more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has
concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an
individual case.

Just my two cents...

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>
> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>
> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
> discriminated against in this way.
>
> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
<lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:
> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job harder and/or harm individuals.
>
> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an individual case.

First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
step down, not a *request* for it.

This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.

Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
decision of the T&S Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.

Cheers,

--
Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

_______________________________________________
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I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I have it
seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of proportion.
It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and sensitivities, not
all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People taking responsibilities
also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask them to conform to fixed
ideas, there should be some room to be oneself. As John said it is
necessary that we are tolerant with small transgressions, otherwise we are
creating a prison to ourselves based on the sensitivities of others.

I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there was
an open communication at all stages of the process.

Cheers,
Micru

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli <martinelliluca@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
> <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:
> > As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
> harder and/or harm individuals.
> >
> > If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
> not an individual case.
>
> First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
> misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
> step down, not a *request* for it.
>
> This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
> voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
> opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
> joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.
>
> Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
> decision of the T&S Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
> Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
> display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
> the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
> honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>


--
Etiamsi omnes, ego non

It doesnt sound like it was good application of process, I think that this
could have been solved simply when the issue was raise with as Romaine has
already done explained and apologised his support should have continued.
It looks bad as someone who isnt there and knows Romaine that issue is be
blown out this much, I think its one that must be resolved today rather
than sometime in the future after the event when everyone has gone home.

Romaine right to have come to the list so that it gets the immediate
attention it needs, that is seeking help. Leaving until after the event
isnt going to resolve anything all its going to do is allow it to linger
and fester potentially causing even more drama. I think its beholden to
the organisers or at least the Trust & Safety team leaders to seek out the
parties involved rather than let this continue.

On 20 July 2018 at 17:02, David Cuenca Tudela <dacuetu@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I have it
> seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of proportion.
> It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and sensitivities, not
> all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People taking responsibilities
> also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask them to conform to fixed
> ideas, there should be some room to be oneself. As John said it is
> necessary that we are tolerant with small transgressions, otherwise we are
> creating a prison to ourselves based on the sensitivities of others.
>
> I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there was
> an open communication at all stages of the process.
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli <martinelliluca@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
>> <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> ha scritto:
>> > As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>> >
>> > If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
>> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
>> not an individual case.
>>
>> First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
>> misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
>> step down, not a *request* for it.
>>
>> This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
>> voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
>> opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
>> joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.
>>
>> Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
>> decision of the T&S Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
>> Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
>> display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
>> the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
>> honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
>> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.

Hi all

I was disturbed when I read Romaine email. For all what is worth, I
would like to outline I trust Romaine meant the best, appreciate his
work for the community and the project, including what he has done
during the previous wikimanias, am sad he has been removed from the
team, and realize how unconfortable he may be right now.

This said, I realized someone felt unconfortable enough to actually
report Romaine. And that can not be dismissed.

But I think irl meetings are important moments for some of us to
actually touch, hug, kiss and I would thoroughly disappointing if this
would stop because some people feel unconfortable with physical contact.
Plus... in noisy environments, we need to get closer to one another to
understand, especially when not primarily English speaking. And this is
more unconfortable to some than to others.

So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may
be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?

Flo

PS: feel free to hug me

Le 20/07/2018 à 11:02, David Cuenca Tudela a écrit :
> I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I
> have it seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of
> proportion. It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and
> sensitivities, not all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People
> taking responsibilities also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask
> them to conform to fixed ideas, there should be some room to be
> oneself. As John said it is necessary that we are tolerant with small
> transgressions, otherwise we are creating a prison to ourselves based
> on the sensitivities of others.
>
> I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there
> was an open communication at all stages of the process.
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli
> <martinelliluca@gmail.com <mailto:martinelliluca@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
> <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>>
> ha scritto:
> > As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I
> seem to hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is
> implemented. Let us also recognize that it is important to have a
> friendly space - and that this is a Hard Thing to accomplish.
> Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a decision while only
> having part of the information can only make that job harder
> and/or harm individuals.
> >
> > If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I
> suggest that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety
> team, and you can have a conversation with them about the broader
> policy. They can perhaps share some rough broader statistics as
> part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more appropriate to have
> this online discussion after the conference has concluded, based
> on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an individual case.
>
> First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
> misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
> step down, not a *request* for it.
>
> This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
> voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
> opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
> joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.
>
> Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
> decision of the T&S Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
> Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
> display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
> the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
> honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On 20 July 2018 at 09:23, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> wrote:

> I trust that [...] the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in
> their implementation

I note that Romaine does not mention the team in his email, only that
there was a "demand" that he stand down; he did not say who made this
demand.

Indeed, the only mention of the T&S team before yours was my call for
them to support a member of the community who seems to feel he has
been discriminated against because of the effects of his hearing
issue.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi,
I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot gave a win-win implementation of the policy
* On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to, otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
* On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more distance when they are talking to someone. (See  https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
* On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible when they are asked to.
* On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.

We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are doing that and why you are not OK with that.

Best regards,
Mykola (NickK)

--- ??????????? ???????????? ---
??? ????: "Lodewijk" <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
????: 20 ????? 2018, 10:23:49

Hi all,
while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice. 

As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job harder and/or harm individuals.

If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an individual case. 

Just my two cents...

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:
On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> - People say I have been talking to loud

> Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself

> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.

As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
discriminated against in this way.

I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hey all,

I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
even less safe and make victims of everyone.

Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T&S who
generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
least amount of actions possible.

I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.

As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
us around the conference.

James

*James Alexander*
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:40 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On 20 July 2018 at 09:23, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> wrote:
>
> > I trust that [...] the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in
> > their implementation
>
> I note that Romaine does not mention the team in his email, only that
> there was a "demand" that he stand down; he did not say who made this
> demand.
>
> Indeed, the only mention of the T&S team before yours was my call for
> them to support a member of the community who seems to feel he has
> been discriminated against because of the effects of his hearing
> issue.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder. Touching
can be very uncomfortable....

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who
> is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
> distance when they are talking to someone. (See
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be
> normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible
> when they are asked to.
> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>
> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>
> Best regards,
> Mykola (NickK)
>
> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
> ??? ????: "Lodewijk" <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
> ????: 20 ????? 2018, 10:23:49
>
> Hi all,
>
> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision
> with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>
> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear
> several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us
> also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
> harder and/or harm individuals.
>
> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that
> you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a
> conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share
> some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably
> more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has
> concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an
> individual case.
>
> Just my two cents...
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>
> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>
> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
> discriminated against in this way.
>
> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens

Hello - I wouldn't claim to know anything about the specifics of
what's happened here but did just want to respond to this:

> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to, otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.

I work in an office where about 20% of the workforce are deaf or hard
of hearing. I have never known a situation where someone feels they
'have' to be so close to someone to hear that the other party feels
uncomfortable.

There is plenty one can do to make life easier for a deaf friend or
colleague (speak clearly, make eye contact, keep your face in full
view, use plenty of body language...) but standing right next to them
is not the normal way to do it.

Thanks,

Chris

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello,

I actively avoid participating in discussion of many sorts, but Romaine is
a very nice and friendly so I want to weigh in. He works so hard too and
keeps trying to make things cheerful (which is needed). I understand if
people are sensitive to touching, hugging, and/or sometimes handshaking,
but they could say that or have a sticker on their badges or something. I
know one might feel bad turning down a handshake or a hug, but it is better
than considering it as misconduct from the person offering it.
I don't think it is now about cultural backgrounds more than individual
preferences. So the bottom line is make your preferences known.

Best,
Reem

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:38, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello - I wouldn't claim to know anything about the specifics of
> what's happened here but did just want to respond to this:
>
> > * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
>
> I work in an office where about 20% of the workforce are deaf or hard
> of hearing. I have never known a situation where someone feels they
> 'have' to be so close to someone to hear that the other party feels
> uncomfortable.
>
> There is plenty one can do to make life easier for a deaf friend or
> colleague (speak clearly, make eye contact, keep your face in full
> view, use plenty of body language...) but standing right next to them
> is not the normal way to do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>


--

*Kind regards,Reem Al-Kashif*

Hi,

I think we need to consider that we have participants from different
countries and hence different cultures. Touching might not be considered
bad behaviour at all in one culture but could be completely unacceptable in
another.

E.g. in India it is very common for 2 male friends to walk with hands on
eachother's shoulder or hand in hand, but when I first arrived in UK I
learned that such intimacy is linked with particular group of males and
hence not considered good in public.

In my opinion, what someone personally feels about other's such gestures is
entirely up to the individual, should not be generalised when we have a
culturally diverse participants. Being little more tolerant or inclusive is
all what we should learn and implement.

Regards,
Dhaval Vyas

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 11:37 Sterkebak, <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder.
> Touching can be very uncomfortable....
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
>> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
>> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
>> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
>> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who
>> is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
>> distance when they are talking to someone. (See
>> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
>> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be
>> normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible
>> when they are asked to.
>> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
>> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
>> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>>
>> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
>> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
>> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
>> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
>> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
>> ??? ????: "Lodewijk" <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
>> ????: 20 ????? 2018, 10:23:49
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the
>> decision with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
>> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
>> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
>> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
>> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
>> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>>
>> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>>
>> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
>> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
>> not an individual case.
>>
>> Just my two cents...
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>>
>> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>>
>> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
>> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
>> discriminated against in this way.
>>
>> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
>> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

hi,

a lot of good comments have been given already. As a person not involved
and without knowledge of the case, but on occasion teaching cross-cultural
management, I just want to piggyback on what James stated and add:
sometimes a person can act in 100% good faith, and yet for the comfort and
safety of everyone else, they may be requested to step down from their
volunteering, and that's ok.

It is perhaps worth reiterating that in mixing cultures different norms and
expectations are 100% inevitably resulting in conflicts and
misunderstandings, period. There is zero doubt about it.

We should all assume good faith, and understand that even the conflicting
norms and cultures alone, with the addition of a hearing problem, may have
resulted in some sort of misunderstanding(s). It still does not mean that
the safety team request was premature. We want the participants to feel
safe and comfortable.

I'd suggest that we refrain from digging into this particular case and
discussing it further, except for remembering clearly that the decision was
never meant as a punishment.

best,

Dariusz ("pundit")


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas <dsvyas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think we need to consider that we have participants from different
> countries and hence different cultures. Touching might not be considered
> bad behaviour at all in one culture but could be completely unacceptable in
> another.
>
> E.g. in India it is very common for 2 male friends to walk with hands on
> eachother's shoulder or hand in hand, but when I first arrived in UK I
> learned that such intimacy is linked with particular group of males and
> hence not considered good in public.
>
> In my opinion, what someone personally feels about other's such gestures
> is entirely up to the individual, should not be generalised when we have a
> culturally diverse participants. Being little more tolerant or inclusive is
> all what we should learn and implement.
>
> Regards,
> Dhaval Vyas
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 11:37 Sterkebak, <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder.
>> Touching can be very uncomfortable....
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k@ukr.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
>>> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
>>> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
>>> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
>>> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person
>>> who is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
>>> distance when they are talking to someone. (See https://simple.
>>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
>>> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can
>>> be normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as
>>> possible when they are asked to.
>>> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
>>> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
>>> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>>>
>>> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
>>> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
>>> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
>>> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
>>> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mykola (NickK)
>>>
>>> --- ??????????? ???????????? ---
>>> ??? ????: "Lodewijk" <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>
>>> ????: 20 ????? 2018, 10:23:49
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the
>>> decision with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
>>> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
>>> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
>>> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
>>> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
>>> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>>>
>>> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>>>
>>> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
>>> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
>>> not an individual case.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents...
>>>
>>> Lodewijk
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>>>
>>> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>>>
>>> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a
>>> volunteer
>>> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>>
>>> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
>>> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
>>> discriminated against in this way.
>>>
>>> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
>>> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Mabbett
>>> @pigsonthewing
>>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>> --
>> Met vriendelijke groet,
>>
>> Huib Laurens
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
________________________________________________________
<http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/> prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital Societies)
Akademia Leona Ko?mi?skiego
http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>



*Ostatnie artyku?y:*

- Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017) Cultural Diversity of
Quality of Information on Wikipedias
<http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
*Journal
of the Association for Information Science and Technology* 68: 10.
2460–2470.
- Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Wikimedia Movement Governance: The Limits
of A-Hierarchical Organization
<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf> *Journal
of Organizational Change Management *29: 3. 361-378.
- Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016) Bridging the Gap Between
Wikipedia and Academia
<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> *Journal of the
Association for Information Science and Technology* 67: 7. 1773-1776.
- Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Wikipedia
<http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> *Feminist
Review *113: 1. 103-108.
- Tadeusz Che?kowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Inequalities
in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of Contributor’s Commits in
Apache Software Foundation Projects
<http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF>
, *PLoS ONE* 11: 4. e0152976.

Please. Just. Stop.

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

"and yet for the comfort and safety of everyone else, they may be requested
to step down from their volunteering, and that's ok."
" the decision was never meant as a punishment."

hmmmmmmm

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 13:53, Siebrand Mazeland <siebrand@kitano.nl> wrote:

> Please. Just. Stop.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>


--

*Kind regards,Reem Al-Kashif*