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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!
> I am required to use certified encryption for mails by my supervising
> authorities and good practise. Because of this I have been using a
> combination of Thunderbird, Enigmail and Gpg4Win, as the latter one
> is certified by German BSI. With the approaching release of
> Thunderbird 78 Gpg4Win and Enigmail won't be available any longer and
> the new OpenPGP-implementation of Thunderbird won't be certified to
> the best of my knowledge.

Hi,

I would ask my supervising authorities if they can contact gnupg.com
and see if GnuPG Desktop fits for your companies purposes. At least
I strongly assume that they are aware of the Thunderbird situation
and are able to offer custom solutions or proper advise.

https://gnupg.com/gnupg-desktop.de.html

Regards
Stefan

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* karel-v:

> With the approaching release of Thunderbird 78 Gpg4Win and Enigmail
> won't be available any longer and the new OpenPGP-implementation of
> Thunderbird won't be certified to the best of my knowledge.

I just checked the BSI's list of certified products[1]. Gpg4Win and
Gpg4KDE are currently listed until 2022-06-30, and you can continue
using them. Thunderbird and Enigmail are not included in that list,
so you are apparently using your own software mix anyway.

Enigmail will no longer be available for Thunderbird 78, but you can
copy message bodies between Thunderbird and GPG using the clipboard. Of
course, this is a major inconvenience, but currently it seems that it's
either this method or sticking with the current Thunderbird version and
Enigmail.

-Ralph

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> I just checked the BSI's list of certified products[1].

Sorry, I forgot to include the URL:

[1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Themen/Sicherheitsberatung/ZugelasseneProdukte/Liste_Produkte/Liste_Produkte_node.html

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Hello!

>I just checked the BSI's list of certified products. Gpg4Win andGpg4KDE are currently listed until >2022-06-30, and you can continueusing them. Thunderbird and Enigmail are not included in that list,so >you are apparently using your own software mix anyway.

Indeed, the only certified component of my mix is GPG4Win, while Enigmail and Thunderbird aren't. But I had checked that before I implemented that combination: the authorities said that only the part of the software that handles the encryption process needs to be certified while the used mail-client and plugins only need to meet general security requirements (TLS-Connections, latest patch-level, ...).

Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are not of any help unfortunately...


So, to be a bit more precise: is there any mailclient working directly with GPG4win or other certified OpenPGP-solution aside from Outlook or copy and paste with Thunderbird 78ff?

Thanks!
Karel


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!

[...]

> Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are
> not of any help unfortunately...

In your previous post you spoke about *supervising* authorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervisor


Regards
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Hello!
The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbehörde" (or even better "Rechtsfähige Anstalt des öffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best guess without being a native speaker...
Does this change the meaning or anything else?
Karel

27. Mai 2020, 23:41 von sac@300baud.de:

> karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:
>
>
>> Hello!
>>
>
> [...]
>
>> Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are
>> not of any help unfortunately...
>>
>
> In your previous post you spoke about *supervising* authorities.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervisor
>
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!
> The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbeh?rde" (or even better
> "Rechtsf?hige Anstalt des ?ffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know
> the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in
> Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best
> guess without being a native speaker... Does this change the meaning
> or anything else? Karel

Hi,

while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde ... If for example you have a job at the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
licensed working solution for their employees.

In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde via email, then I don't understand how would they
detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
without BSI approval.

P.S. please don't take it personal!

Regards
Stefan


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On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
>
> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
> care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> licensed working solution for their employees.
>
> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> without BSI approval.

This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there are
companies or other institutions which *must* use certified encryption
solutions. Some ideas:

- The OP might be employed at a city administration of a small village
where the full set of regulations is relevant, but where there is no
money (as in many small villages) to buy support.

- The OP might be employed at a company like a hospital, a nuclear
plant, a company which develops or sells military goods, a law office, a
tax office, a (medical) insurance, a bank, and so on - you get the idea :-)

While I actually don't know in detail which sort of company is bound by
which regulation, I am sure that there are dozens of company types and
hundreds, if not thousands of companies which are legally restricted to
use only BSI-certified encryption software, especially companies which
handle sensitive personal data or which compromise public safety if they
let leak data.

Even more, since the arrival of the GPDR, each company -even the
smallest one- has to put significant effort into protecting personal
data, and has to document in detail their respective policies and
methods. When implementing the respective concepts and explaining /
documenting why they are safe and how they protect personal data, it is
of great help when the BSI has certified as many parts of the software
as possible.

Furthermore, to me, the OP sounds if he is not only employed at a
company as a normal user, but as a part-time admin who has been asked to
implement the email infrastructure for his colleagues besides his normal
work (because the management as usual does not understand the importance
and value of such work and the expertise and time which is needed).

Regards,

Binarus

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Binarus wrote:

>
>
> On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
> >
> > while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to
> > take care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde ... If for example you have a job at the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> > ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> > environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> > licensed working solution for their employees.
> >
> > In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> > detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> > without BSI approval.
>
> This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there
> are companies or other institutions which *must* use certified
> encryption solutions. Some ideas:

[...]

Yes, understand. But then if those institutions have no funds or
are not willing to invested in their IT security infrastructure
then they may ask the BSI how to proceed. Maybe the BSI has funds
to let gnupg.com develope a custom Windows solution for them.

The other option would be that the OP and others continue using
their current Thunderbird/Enigmail/gpg4win setup.

Regards
Stefan

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On Tue, 26 May 2020 12:27, karel-v_g--- said:

> Because of this I have been using a combination of Thunderbird,
> Enigmail and Gpg4Win, as the latter one is certified by German BSI.

Well, it is not certified but approved to handle data at the EU
RESTRICTED level (BSI-VSA-10400 and 10412). There a lot of side
condition you have to meet to use that which are detailed in the SecOPs.

TB has not been approved to handle restricted data because it does not
clearly show whether important conditions are met. GpgOL and KMail are
able to meet these requirements for email; Kleopatra for file
encryption.



Shalom-Salam,

Werner

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On Fri 29/May/2020 12:29:48 +0200 Stefan Claas wrote:
> Binarus wrote:
>> On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
>>>
>>> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to
>>> take care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
>>> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
>>> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
>>> licensed working solution for their employees.
>>>
>>> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
>>> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
>>> without BSI approval.
>>
>> This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there
>> are companies or other institutions which *must* use certified
>> encryption solutions. Some ideas:
>
> [...]
>
> Yes, understand. But then if those institutions have no funds or
> are not willing to invested in their IT security infrastructure
> then they may ask the BSI how to proceed. Maybe the BSI has funds
> to let gnupg.com develope a custom Windows solution for them.
>
> The other option would be that the OP and others continue using
> their current Thunderbird/Enigmail/gpg4win setup.


Any chance that the BSI will approve the RNP library that Thunderbird is going
to use?


Best
Ale
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Hello!
No, I don't work for an Aufsichtsbehörde and (fortunately) I don't have to deal with them directly most time. But the Aufsichtsbehörde defines how my work has to be done and they have the right to inspect it. And one of the things they require is use recommended (e.g. BSI) software for mailencryption. Of course there is no way knowing for them whether I comply or not without intercepting my mail or visiting my office.
But as always it might cause problems when not complying.
So I think I will continue use Thunderbird as MTA and use GPG4Win with copy and paste for the encryption part.
But it's a pity that Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
But why should I take the discussion personal?? :-)
Karel


28. Mai 2020, 23:21 von sac@300baud.de:

> karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:
>
>
>> Hello!
>> The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbehörde" (or even better
>> "Rechtsfähige Anstalt des öffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know
>> the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in
>> Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best
>> guess without being a native speaker... Does this change the meaning
>> or anything else? Karel
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
> care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> licensed working solution for their employees.
>
> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> without BSI approval.
>
> P.S. please don't take it personal!
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

Hi,

> But it's a pity that
> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...

We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.

> But why should
> I take the discussion personal?? :-) Karel

Well, because sometimes people may not like what I write. :-)

Regards
Stefan

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>> But it's a pity that
>> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
>> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
>
> We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
> solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.

Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing to
call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the source
of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail was also a
headache and a half.

You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works for
you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for you!
But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand emails over
the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm reluctant to
call it that.

It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
up and working.

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Robert J. Hansen wrote:

> >> But it's a pity that
> >> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
> >> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
> >
> > We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully
> > working solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.
>
> Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
> users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing
> to call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the
> source of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail
> was also a headache and a half.
>
> You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works
> for you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for
> you! But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand
> emails over the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm
> reluctant to call it that.
>
> It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
> there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
> up and working.

I can only say from my side, when using Enigmail many moons ago, with
a Mac, it was ok.

Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
us what people can expect?

Regards
Stefan

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> Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
> infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
> us what people can expect?

Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
to TB78's OpenPGP support.

TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
the lights, and lock up as we leave.

(The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)

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One of the potential problems I can see is multiple key rings. which I
have just recently discovered in my own setup. I have the "standard" key
rings that GPG4Win/Enigmail use and then I discovered 2 unknown files in
my gnupg directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually
deduced they came from an archiving program I use that has PGP built in
called Power Archiver. 

Granted I am a newbie with PGP but the thought of having to make sure
multiple key rings are all synced sounds like a hassle.


On 5/29/2020 1:32 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> But it's a pity that
>>> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
>>> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
>> We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
>> solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.
> Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
> users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing to
> call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the source
> of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail was also a
> headache and a half.
>
> You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works for
> you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for you!
> But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand emails over
> the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm reluctant to
> call it that.
>
> It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
> there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
> up and working.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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Robert J. Hansen wrote:

> > Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have
> > also infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> > beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can
> > tell us what people can expect?
>
> Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
> and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
> to TB78's OpenPGP support.
>
> TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
> users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
> fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
> day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
> the lights, and lock up as we leave.
>
> (The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
> support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Regards
Stefan

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Robert.
I am a long-time version of many different versions of Thunderbird,
enigmail, and multiple packages of gpg.

If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys in
their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I missing
one of the gotchas with
TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 17:35 Robert J. Hansen <rjh@sixdemonbag.org> wrote:

> > Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
> > infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> > beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
> > us what people can expect?
>
> Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
> and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
> to TB78's OpenPGP support.
>
> TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
> users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
> fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
> day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
> the lights, and lock up as we leave.
>
> (The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
> support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>

> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
> missing one of the gotchas with
> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.

You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
even import a key*."

I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.

At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.


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W dniu 30.05.2020 o 01:07, Robert J. Hansen pisze:
>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>> missing one of the gotchas with
>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>
> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
> even import a key*."
>
> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>
> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.

Nice.

Since you seem to be following OpenPGP-in-TB78 development:
1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you believe it's acceptable?
2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the near future?

--
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> 1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as
> IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you
> believe it's acceptable?

It should be an easy learning curve for Enigmail users. That isn't the
same as finding it acceptable, though.

Back in the mid-'90s PGP came out with a GUI for PGP 5, and it's
universally agreed at user interface was horrific. (See "Why Johnny
Can't Encrypt" for a detailed teardown.) The problem was that this
horrific user interface became the standard user interface, and most
OpenPGP key managers ever since have adopted it. Those that haven't
adopted it, nobody uses, because their UI is so different than
everything else.

> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
> near future?

No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.


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W dniu 30.05.2020 o 01:26, Robert J. Hansen pisze:
>> 1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as
>> IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you
>> believe it's acceptable?
>
> It should be an easy learning curve for Enigmail users. That isn't the
> same as finding it acceptable, though.
>
> Back in the mid-'90s PGP came out with a GUI for PGP 5, and it's
> universally agreed at user interface was horrific. (See "Why Johnny
> Can't Encrypt" for a detailed teardown.) The problem was that this
> horrific user interface became the standard user interface, and most
> OpenPGP key managers ever since have adopted it. Those that haven't
> adopted it, nobody uses, because their UI is so different than
> everything else.

I wasn't asking if GUI is acceptable. I was asking if crypto and GUI happen in the same process (the main TB process). Since they seem to be using a library for PGP it's quite probable. And if so - is that acceptable in your opinion?


>> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
>> near future?
>
> No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
> no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
> if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.

Double nice.

Time to check Claws I think.

--
Grzegorz Kulewski
gk@leniwiec.biz
+48 663 92 88 95

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> I wasn't asking if GUI is acceptable. I was asking if crypto and GUI
> happen in the same process (the main TB process). Since they seem to
> be using a library for PGP it's quite probable. And if so - is that
> acceptable in your opinion?

Oh! When you said "process", I read that as "workflow". My apologies.
Yes, it's all part of the main family of processes. There's no
spawning off of a GnuPG instance and setting up a communications channel
to it.

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