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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!
> I am required to use certified encryption for mails by my supervising
> authorities and good practise. Because of this I have been using a
> combination of Thunderbird, Enigmail and Gpg4Win, as the latter one
> is certified by German BSI. With the approaching release of
> Thunderbird 78 Gpg4Win and Enigmail won't be available any longer and
> the new OpenPGP-implementation of Thunderbird won't be certified to
> the best of my knowledge.

Hi,

I would ask my supervising authorities if they can contact gnupg.com
and see if GnuPG Desktop fits for your companies purposes. At least
I strongly assume that they are aware of the Thunderbird situation
and are able to offer custom solutions or proper advise.

https://gnupg.com/gnupg-desktop.de.html

Regards
Stefan

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* karel-v:

> With the approaching release of Thunderbird 78 Gpg4Win and Enigmail
> won't be available any longer and the new OpenPGP-implementation of
> Thunderbird won't be certified to the best of my knowledge.

I just checked the BSI's list of certified products[1]. Gpg4Win and
Gpg4KDE are currently listed until 2022-06-30, and you can continue
using them. Thunderbird and Enigmail are not included in that list,
so you are apparently using your own software mix anyway.

Enigmail will no longer be available for Thunderbird 78, but you can
copy message bodies between Thunderbird and GPG using the clipboard. Of
course, this is a major inconvenience, but currently it seems that it's
either this method or sticking with the current Thunderbird version and
Enigmail.

-Ralph

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> I just checked the BSI's list of certified products[1].

Sorry, I forgot to include the URL:

[1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/DE/Themen/Sicherheitsberatung/ZugelasseneProdukte/Liste_Produkte/Liste_Produkte_node.html

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Hello!

>I just checked the BSI's list of certified products. Gpg4Win andGpg4KDE are currently listed until >2022-06-30, and you can continueusing them. Thunderbird and Enigmail are not included in that list,so >you are apparently using your own software mix anyway.

Indeed, the only certified component of my mix is GPG4Win, while Enigmail and Thunderbird aren't. But I had checked that before I implemented that combination: the authorities said that only the part of the software that handles the encryption process needs to be certified while the used mail-client and plugins only need to meet general security requirements (TLS-Connections, latest patch-level, ...).

Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are not of any help unfortunately...


So, to be a bit more precise: is there any mailclient working directly with GPG4win or other certified OpenPGP-solution aside from Outlook or copy and paste with Thunderbird 78ff?

Thanks!
Karel


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!

[...]

> Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are
> not of any help unfortunately...

In your previous post you spoke about *supervising* authorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervisor


Regards
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Hello!
The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbehörde" (or even better "Rechtsfähige Anstalt des öffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best guess without being a native speaker...
Does this change the meaning or anything else?
Karel

27. Mai 2020, 23:41 von sac@300baud.de:

> karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:
>
>
>> Hello!
>>
>
> [...]
>
>> Aside from advising to use BSI-certified products the authorities are
>> not of any help unfortunately...
>>
>
> In your previous post you spoke about *supervising* authorities.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervisor
>
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

> Hello!
> The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbeh?rde" (or even better
> "Rechtsf?hige Anstalt des ?ffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know
> the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in
> Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best
> guess without being a native speaker... Does this change the meaning
> or anything else? Karel

Hi,

while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde ... If for example you have a job at the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
licensed working solution for their employees.

In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
Aufsichtsbeh?rde via email, then I don't understand how would they
detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
without BSI approval.

P.S. please don't take it personal!

Regards
Stefan


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On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
>
> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
> care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> licensed working solution for their employees.
>
> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> without BSI approval.

This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there are
companies or other institutions which *must* use certified encryption
solutions. Some ideas:

- The OP might be employed at a city administration of a small village
where the full set of regulations is relevant, but where there is no
money (as in many small villages) to buy support.

- The OP might be employed at a company like a hospital, a nuclear
plant, a company which develops or sells military goods, a law office, a
tax office, a (medical) insurance, a bank, and so on - you get the idea :-)

While I actually don't know in detail which sort of company is bound by
which regulation, I am sure that there are dozens of company types and
hundreds, if not thousands of companies which are legally restricted to
use only BSI-certified encryption software, especially companies which
handle sensitive personal data or which compromise public safety if they
let leak data.

Even more, since the arrival of the GPDR, each company -even the
smallest one- has to put significant effort into protecting personal
data, and has to document in detail their respective policies and
methods. When implementing the respective concepts and explaining /
documenting why they are safe and how they protect personal data, it is
of great help when the BSI has certified as many parts of the software
as possible.

Furthermore, to me, the OP sounds if he is not only employed at a
company as a normal user, but as a part-time admin who has been asked to
implement the email infrastructure for his colleagues besides his normal
work (because the management as usual does not understand the importance
and value of such work and the expertise and time which is needed).

Regards,

Binarus

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Binarus wrote:

>
>
> On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
> >
> > while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to
> > take care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde ... If for example you have a job at the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> > ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> > environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> > licensed working solution for their employees.
> >
> > In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> > Aufsichtsbeh?rde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> > detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> > without BSI approval.
>
> This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there
> are companies or other institutions which *must* use certified
> encryption solutions. Some ideas:

[...]

Yes, understand. But then if those institutions have no funds or
are not willing to invested in their IT security infrastructure
then they may ask the BSI how to proceed. Maybe the BSI has funds
to let gnupg.com develope a custom Windows solution for them.

The other option would be that the OP and others continue using
their current Thunderbird/Enigmail/gpg4win setup.

Regards
Stefan

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On Tue, 26 May 2020 12:27, karel-v_g--- said:

> Because of this I have been using a combination of Thunderbird,
> Enigmail and Gpg4Win, as the latter one is certified by German BSI.

Well, it is not certified but approved to handle data at the EU
RESTRICTED level (BSI-VSA-10400 and 10412). There a lot of side
condition you have to meet to use that which are detailed in the SecOPs.

TB has not been approved to handle restricted data because it does not
clearly show whether important conditions are met. GpgOL and KMail are
able to meet these requirements for email; Kleopatra for file
encryption.



Shalom-Salam,

Werner

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On Fri 29/May/2020 12:29:48 +0200 Stefan Claas wrote:
> Binarus wrote:
>> On 28.05.2020 23:21, Stefan Claas wrote:
>>>
>>> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to
>>> take care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
>>> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
>>> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
>>> licensed working solution for their employees.
>>>
>>> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
>>> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
>>> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
>>> without BSI approval.
>>
>> This is not my field, but I believe that (besides authorities) there
>> are companies or other institutions which *must* use certified
>> encryption solutions. Some ideas:
>
> [...]
>
> Yes, understand. But then if those institutions have no funds or
> are not willing to invested in their IT security infrastructure
> then they may ask the BSI how to proceed. Maybe the BSI has funds
> to let gnupg.com develope a custom Windows solution for them.
>
> The other option would be that the OP and others continue using
> their current Thunderbird/Enigmail/gpg4win setup.


Any chance that the BSI will approve the RNP library that Thunderbird is going
to use?


Best
Ale
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Hello!
No, I don't work for an Aufsichtsbehörde and (fortunately) I don't have to deal with them directly most time. But the Aufsichtsbehörde defines how my work has to be done and they have the right to inspect it. And one of the things they require is use recommended (e.g. BSI) software for mailencryption. Of course there is no way knowing for them whether I comply or not without intercepting my mail or visiting my office.
But as always it might cause problems when not complying.
So I think I will continue use Thunderbird as MTA and use GPG4Win with copy and paste for the encryption part.
But it's a pity that Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
But why should I take the discussion personal?? :-)
Karel


28. Mai 2020, 23:21 von sac@300baud.de:

> karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:
>
>
>> Hello!
>> The German translation should be "Aufsichtsbehörde" (or even better
>> "Rechtsfähige Anstalt des öffentlichen Rechts"). In fact I don't know
>> the exact translation and didn't find any appropriate in
>> Google-Translate or deepl. So "supervising authorities" was my best
>> guess without being a native speaker... Does this change the meaning
>> or anything else? Karel
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> while it is not my business, I do not understand why you have to take
> care about the Thunderbird issue, as a users and not the
> Aufsichtsbehörde ... If for example you have a job at the
> Aufsichtsbehörde then ok, like I said, I would contact gnupg.com and
> ask them if GnuPG Desktop (A Windows app) fits for your working
> environment and in case not what they would suggest, because the
> Aufsichtsbehörde should have IMHO funds to issue a professional
> licensed working solution for their employees.
>
> In case you only have to deal as a gpg4win user with the
> Aufsichtsbehörde via email, then I don't understand how would they
> detect if you would not comply by using later the new Thunderbird,
> without BSI approval.
>
> P.S. please don't take it personal!
>
> Regards
> Stefan
>


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karel-v_g--- via Gnupg-users wrote:

Hi,

> But it's a pity that
> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...

We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.

> But why should
> I take the discussion personal?? :-) Karel

Well, because sometimes people may not like what I write. :-)

Regards
Stefan

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>> But it's a pity that
>> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
>> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
>
> We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
> solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.

Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing to
call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the source
of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail was also a
headache and a half.

You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works for
you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for you!
But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand emails over
the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm reluctant to
call it that.

It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
up and working.

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Robert J. Hansen wrote:

> >> But it's a pity that
> >> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
> >> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
> >
> > We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully
> > working solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.
>
> Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
> users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing
> to call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the
> source of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail
> was also a headache and a half.
>
> You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works
> for you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for
> you! But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand
> emails over the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm
> reluctant to call it that.
>
> It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
> there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
> up and working.

I can only say from my side, when using Enigmail many moons ago, with
a Mac, it was ok.

Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
us what people can expect?

Regards
Stefan

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> Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
> infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
> us what people can expect?

Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
to TB78's OpenPGP support.

TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
the lights, and lock up as we leave.

(The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)

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One of the potential problems I can see is multiple key rings. which I
have just recently discovered in my own setup. I have the "standard" key
rings that GPG4Win/Enigmail use and then I discovered 2 unknown files in
my gnupg directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually
deduced they came from an archiving program I use that has PGP built in
called Power Archiver. 

Granted I am a newbie with PGP but the thought of having to make sure
multiple key rings are all synced sounds like a hassle.


On 5/29/2020 1:32 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> But it's a pity that
>>> Thunderbird developed its own solution because of licensing issues
>>> while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...
>> We never know, maybe in the future someone writes again a fully working
>> solution for Thunderbird/GnuPG users.
> Over the last fifteen years of providing email support to Enigmail
> users, I can say 95% of the Enigmail problems were caused by needing to
> call out to GnuPG. The pipeline was (still is) fragile and the source
> of many errors. Distributing GnuPG separately from Enigmail was also a
> headache and a half.
>
> You may think Enigmail is a proven working solution because it works for
> you and the people you know. I'm very happy it works so well for you!
> But from my perspective, with literally almost two thousand emails over
> the last fifteen years from people asking for help, I'm reluctant to
> call it that.
>
> It works well for many people and I'm really glad it exists. But
> there's still an unfortunate amount of work involved in getting it set
> up and working.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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Robert J. Hansen wrote:

> > Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have
> > also infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> > beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can
> > tell us what people can expect?
>
> Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
> and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
> to TB78's OpenPGP support.
>
> TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
> users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
> fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
> day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
> the lights, and lock up as we leave.
>
> (The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
> support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Regards
Stefan

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Robert.
I am a long-time version of many different versions of Thunderbird,
enigmail, and multiple packages of gpg.

If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys in
their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I missing
one of the gotchas with
TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.

On Fri, May 29, 2020, 17:35 Robert J. Hansen <rjh@sixdemonbag.org> wrote:

> > Since you mention that you did support for Enigmail, do you have also
> > infos about the current status of Thunderbird development, i.e.
> > beta testing etc., regarding OpenPGP support, so that you may can tell
> > us what people can expect?
>
> Enigmail development has ended. The upcoming 2.2 is the final release
> and introduces no new features. It exists only to help people migrate
> to TB78's OpenPGP support.
>
> TB68 is being EOLed this fall. We've promised to continue to support
> users for six months after that, including giving emergency security
> fixes to Enigmail if they become necessary: but at six months and one
> day we're going to mop the floor, tally up the cash register, shut off
> the lights, and lock up as we leave.
>
> (The only exception is a commercial email company that has a signed
> support contract with Patrick -- their contract will be fulfilled.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>

> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
> missing one of the gotchas with
> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.

You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
even import a key*."

I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.

At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.


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W dniu 30.05.2020 o 01:07, Robert J. Hansen pisze:
>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>> missing one of the gotchas with
>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>
> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
> even import a key*."
>
> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>
> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.

Nice.

Since you seem to be following OpenPGP-in-TB78 development:
1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you believe it's acceptable?
2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the near future?

--
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> 1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as
> IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you
> believe it's acceptable?

It should be an easy learning curve for Enigmail users. That isn't the
same as finding it acceptable, though.

Back in the mid-'90s PGP came out with a GUI for PGP 5, and it's
universally agreed at user interface was horrific. (See "Why Johnny
Can't Encrypt" for a detailed teardown.) The problem was that this
horrific user interface became the standard user interface, and most
OpenPGP key managers ever since have adopted it. Those that haven't
adopted it, nobody uses, because their UI is so different than
everything else.

> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
> near future?

No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.


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W dniu 30.05.2020 o 01:26, Robert J. Hansen pisze:
>> 1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as
>> IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you
>> believe it's acceptable?
>
> It should be an easy learning curve for Enigmail users. That isn't the
> same as finding it acceptable, though.
>
> Back in the mid-'90s PGP came out with a GUI for PGP 5, and it's
> universally agreed at user interface was horrific. (See "Why Johnny
> Can't Encrypt" for a detailed teardown.) The problem was that this
> horrific user interface became the standard user interface, and most
> OpenPGP key managers ever since have adopted it. Those that haven't
> adopted it, nobody uses, because their UI is so different than
> everything else.

I wasn't asking if GUI is acceptable. I was asking if crypto and GUI happen in the same process (the main TB process). Since they seem to be using a library for PGP it's quite probable. And if so - is that acceptable in your opinion?


>> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
>> near future?
>
> No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
> no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
> if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.

Double nice.

Time to check Claws I think.

--
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gk@leniwiec.biz
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> I wasn't asking if GUI is acceptable. I was asking if crypto and GUI
> happen in the same process (the main TB process). Since they seem to
> be using a library for PGP it's quite probable. And if so - is that
> acceptable in your opinion?

Oh! When you said "process", I read that as "workflow". My apologies.
Yes, it's all part of the main family of processes. There's no
spawning off of a GnuPG instance and setting up a communications channel
to it.

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On 5/29/20 7:39 PM, Grzegorz Kulewski wrote:
> Time to check Claws I think.

i've found that claws, evolution, sylpheed and kmail all integrate
seamlessly with gpg2 (using standard debian packages for everything)

~c

--
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https://www.simons-rock.edu Bard College at Simon's Rock
Encryption key: http://hope.simons-rock.edu/~cderr/
Personal writing: https://medium.com/@cderr
pronouns: either he/him or they/them is acceptable
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On 5/30/20 1:26 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
>> near future?
>
> No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
> no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
> if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.

Smart card support is on the ToDo list.
https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Thunderbird:OpenPGP:Status

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Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>> missing one of the gotchas with
>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>
> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
> even import a key*."

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
_certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.

> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.

Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
but users may still enable it manually.

> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.

No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.

-Patrick

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Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:26:
>> 1. Will key management and crypto happen in the same process as
>> IMAP/POP/SMTP, GUI, JavaScript and everything else? If so - do you
>> believe it's acceptable?
>
> It should be an easy learning curve for Enigmail users. That isn't the
> same as finding it acceptable, though.
>
> Back in the mid-'90s PGP came out with a GUI for PGP 5, and it's
> universally agreed at user interface was horrific. (See "Why Johnny
> Can't Encrypt" for a detailed teardown.) The problem was that this
> horrific user interface became the standard user interface, and most
> OpenPGP key managers ever since have adopted it. Those that haven't
> adopted it, nobody uses, because their UI is so different than
> everything else.
>
>> 2. Is there any real plan to have working smartcard support in the
>> near future?
>
> No. There's some talk about supporting it, but as far as I know there's
> no plan to do it. It's still at the "you know, it'd be kind of nice
> if..." stage, not the "we really should do this" stage.

The plan is to support smartcards (by using GnuPG for private key
operations). This is already working partially, and is foreseen to be
available in TB 78.

-Patrick

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So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?

If so how do you keep them synchronized?

On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>> even import a key*."
> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>
>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
> but users may still enable it manually.
>
>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>
> -Patrick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?

No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.

-Patrick
>
> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>
> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>> even import a key*."
>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>
>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>
>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>
>> -Patrick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gnupg-users mailing list
>> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
>> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.

I have yet to talk to anyone who's been able to import their keyring,
which is the absolute minimum use case. When it fails it does so
silently. If the minimum use case of "average users should be able to
import their keyrings" leads to RNP crashing, no keys being imported,
and no error message being generated, I have no problem calling key
importation broken.

> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
> but users may still enable it manually.

According to Kai's post on one of the TB mailing lists, he wants the
version in 78 to be a technology preview, hidden from the user, and only
accessible to power users. I don't consider that to be shipping it for 78.

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Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages?  

Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
a file?

The reason I'm asking is that awhile ago I posted about unknown files in
my GNUPG directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually found
out those are key rings used by a program I have called Power Archiver.
I'm not sure why it has it own set of keys, still awaiting an
explanation from support. If every app is not using the same pair of key
rings (and there is no synchronization between them) could that not lead
to problems?

Thanks

On 5/30/2020 12:57 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
>> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
>> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?
> No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
> with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.
>
> -Patrick
>> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>>
>> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>>> even import a key*."
>>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>>
>>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>>
>>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>>
>>> -Patrick
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gnupg-users mailing list
>>> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
>>> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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Mark wrote on 31.05.2020 01:28:
> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages? 

With smartcard support via GnuPG, all secret key operations are handled
by GnuPG, and all public key operations are handled by TB (Note: the
standard case, without smartcard support, will be that all keys are in
Thunderbird).

The use-cases are clearly distinct:
- encryption: you only need public keys
- decryption: you only need secret keys
- signing: you only need secret keys
- verification: you only need public keys

> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
> a file?

That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP in Thunderbird
is that you use it for email.

> The reason I'm asking is that awhile ago I posted about unknown files in
> my GNUPG directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually found
> out those are key rings used by a program I have called Power Archiver.
> I'm not sure why it has it own set of keys, still awaiting an
> explanation from support. If every app is not using the same pair of key
> rings (and there is no synchronization between them) could that not lead
> to problems?

The only "problem" might be that you have different keys on different
key rings. But this is not necessarily a problem - you use different
keys for different purposes and you can import and export the keys
between the tools if needed.

-Patrick

> On 5/30/2020 12:57 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
>>> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
>>> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?
>> No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
>> with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.
>>
>> -Patrick
>>> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>>>
>>> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>>>> even import a key*."
>>>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>>>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>>>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>>>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>>>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>>>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>>>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>>>
>>>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>>>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>>>
>>>> -Patrick

Hello Mark,

I totally agree. It is not possible to have more than one key store.
Synchronization always fails some time and the standard user cannot
handle it. So the only solution for TB will be to use GNUPG, because it
has the only key store for all platforms and has proved to work for
years. That results in the only possible solution for TB to integrate
the enigmail functionality into the code directly or live with the
enigmail plug-in. All other solutions are defective by design from start.

Andreas




Am 31.05.2020 um 01:28 schrieb Mark:
> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages?  
>
> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
> a file?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that awhile ago I posted about unknown files in
> my GNUPG directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually found
> out those are key rings used by a program I have called Power Archiver.
> I'm not sure why it has it own set of keys, still awaiting an
> explanation from support. If every app is not using the same pair of key
> rings (and there is no synchronization between them) could that not lead
> to problems?
>
> Thanks
>
> On 5/30/2020 12:57 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
>>> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
>>> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?
>> No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
>> with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.
>>
>> -Patrick
>>> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>>>
>>> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>>>> even import a key*."
>>>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>>>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>>>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>>>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>>>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>>>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>>>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>>>
>>>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>>>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>>>
>>>> -Patrick
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gnupg-users mailing list
>>>> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
>>>> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>

Hello Patrick,


Am 31.05.2020 um 10:01 schrieb Patrick Brunschwig:
> Mark wrote on 31.05.2020 01:28:
>> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages? 
>
> With smartcard support via GnuPG, all secret key operations are handled
> by GnuPG, and all public key operations are handled by TB (Note: the
> standard case, without smartcard support, will be that all keys are in
> Thunderbird).
>
> The use-cases are clearly distinct:
> - encryption: you only need public keys
> - decryption: you only need secret keys
> - signing: you only need secret keys
> - verification: you only need public keys
>
The standard user will not be able to work with that "solution".
Compared to the "enigmail-solution" this is the hell and bound to fail.

>> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
>> a file?
>
> That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP in Thunderbird
> is that you use it for email.
>
That is correct, but nevertheless it is mandatory to have and use a
single key-store.

>> The reason I'm asking is that awhile ago I posted about unknown files in
>> my GNUPG directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually found
>> out those are key rings used by a program I have called Power Archiver.
>> I'm not sure why it has it own set of keys, still awaiting an
>> explanation from support. If every app is not using the same pair of key
>> rings (and there is no synchronization between them) could that not lead
>> to problems?
>
> The only "problem" might be that you have different keys on different
> key rings. But this is not necessarily a problem - you use different
> keys for different purposes and you can import and export the keys
> between the tools if needed.
>
As I stated before: This is a real problem. Multiple keys-stores are not
manageable and this planned solution is much more complicated than the
current with enigmail. Therefore it is bound to be a non-starter.

> -Patrick
>
>> On 5/30/2020 12:57 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
>>>> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
>>>> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?
>>> No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
>>> with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.
>>>
>>> -Patrick
>>>> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>>>>
>>>> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>>>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>>>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>>>>> even import a key*."
>>>>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>>>>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>>>>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>>>>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>>>>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>>>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>>>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>>>>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>>>>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>>>>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Patrick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gnupg-users mailing list
> Gnupg-users@gnupg.org
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
>

Andreas Boehlk Computer-Service wrote on 31.05.2020 11:09:
> Hello Patrick,
>
>
> Am 31.05.2020 um 10:01 schrieb Patrick Brunschwig:
>> Mark wrote on 31.05.2020 01:28:
>>> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages? 
>>
>> With smartcard support via GnuPG, all secret key operations are handled
>> by GnuPG, and all public key operations are handled by TB (Note: the
>> standard case, without smartcard support, will be that all keys are in
>> Thunderbird).
>>
>> The use-cases are clearly distinct:
>> - encryption: you only need public keys
>> - decryption: you only need secret keys
>> - signing: you only need secret keys
>> - verification: you only need public keys
>>
> The standard user will not be able to work with that "solution".
> Compared to the "enigmail-solution" this is the hell and bound to fail.

Let's first define Standard users. The majority of users who use
smartcards that *I* know are expert or power users. They can handle this.

The "Standard users" I have in mind don't use GnuPG for anything else
than encrypting mails, and they don't use smartcards either. They won't
have this issue in any way.

>>> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
>>> a file?
>>
>> That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP in Thunderbird
>> is that you use it for email.
>>
> That is correct, but nevertheless it is mandatory to have and use a
> single key-store.

For which use-case precisely? If you only use OpenPGP for emails (and
given the users I know who had support cases in the past, this is true
for the majority of the Enigmail users), then this is irrelevant.

To be quite clear: Thunderbird will not support GnuPG for scenarios
other than handling secret keys. And that's only because the OpenPGP
library they use can't handle smartcards yet. Once the library will
support smartcards, I expect that GnuPG support will be removed entirely.

Note: I'm not a Thunderbird developer and I don't drive Thunderbird
decisions -- this is simply my expectation of what will happen.

-Patrick

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On 5/30/2020 10:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

[snip]

> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.

[snip]

How does one identify a v3 key?

David

That is what I see happening too. When you start having multiple key
stores, which one contains the "correct" keys?  I saw that happening in
just my very limited usage where another program has its own key rings... 

On 5/31/2020 1:28 AM, Andreas Boehlk Computer-Service wrote:
> Hello Mark,
>
> I totally agree. It is not possible to have more than one key store.
> Synchronization always fails some time and the standard user cannot
> handle it. So the only solution for TB will be to use GNUPG, because it
> has the only key store for all platforms and has proved to work for
> years. That results in the only possible solution for TB to integrate
> the enigmail functionality into the code directly or live with the
> enigmail plug-in. All other solutions are defective by design from start.
>
> Andreas
>
> ://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users

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So for all of us that don't use a smart card to store our keys, they are
stored in TB?  What if we also have need for that key outside of email
such as signing or decrypting files? We still need that key in GNUPG as
well. If we change the key at all then we have to make sure it has been
updated in both areas?? 

I could see a similar situation could develop with the public keys where
the ones stored in TB are not in sync with the ones stored in GNUPG. 
What happens with keys that are obtained from websites for places like
Apple, Microsoft, etc that are not being directly imported from an email?

Maybe I am overthinking it or just missing something but I see potential
problems with this. If they are not using the same data (key rings) or
in constant synchronization, the "wrong key" could be used.   Hopefully
they have a way to address this.

On 5/31/2020 1:01 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> Mark wrote on 31.05.2020 01:28:
>> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages? 
> With smartcard support via GnuPG, all secret key operations are handled
> by GnuPG, and all public key operations are handled by TB (Note: the
> standard case, without smartcard support, will be that all keys are in
> Thunderbird).
>
> The use-cases are clearly distinct:
> - encryption: you only need public keys
> - decryption: you only need secret keys
> - signing: you only need secret keys
> - verification: you only need public keys
>
>> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
>> a file?
> That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP in Thunderbird
> is that you use it for email.
>
>> The reason I'm asking is that awhile ago I posted about unknown files in
>> my GNUPG directory. PAPubring.gpg and PAsecring.gpg. I eventually found
>> out those are key rings used by a program I have called Power Archiver.
>> I'm not sure why it has it own set of keys, still awaiting an
>> explanation from support. If every app is not using the same pair of key
>> rings (and there is no synchronization between them) could that not lead
>> to problems?
> The only "problem" might be that you have different keys on different
> key rings. But this is not necessarily a problem - you use different
> keys for different purposes and you can import and export the keys
> between the tools if needed.
>
> -Patrick
>
>> On 5/30/2020 12:57 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> Mark wrote on 30.05.2020 20:54:
>>>> So then do you have multiple pairs of key rings? One pair for TB78 and
>>>> its built in PGP and another pair as part of GNUPG?
>>> No exactly. You have your secret keys with GnuPG, and your public keys
>>> with Thunderbird. No synchronization required.
>>>
>>> -Patrick
>>>> If so how do you keep them synchronized?
>>>>
>>>> On 5/30/2020 9:17 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>>>> Robert J. Hansen wrote on 30.05.2020 01:07:
>>>>>>> If TB 78 is going to have native support of openGPG encryption, then the
>>>>>>> original person in the thread should be able to export all of the keys
>>>>>>> in their key rings, and import all of those keys into TB 78, or am I
>>>>>>> missing one of the gotchas with
>>>>>>> TV 78 and it's openGPG encryption support.
>>>>>> You're missing the gotcha of "as of -Beta3, the new Thunderbird *cannot
>>>>>> even import a key*."
>>>>> I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. There is a known bug in the
>>>>> library used by Thunderbird (RNP) that leads to crashes when importing
>>>>> _certain_ keys. But I succeeded in importing all of my keys without any
>>>>> problems (more than 1.000), except for 5 V3-keys. I can definitely say
>>>>> that it's not just broken, and it can import keys.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not kidding. It is so far from complete that Kai Englert, who leads
>>>>>> the TB78 OpenPGP effort, recently proposed postponing OpenPGP support in
>>>>>> TB until version 78.2, or about a three-month delay.
>>>>> Again, that's oversimplified. OpenPGP will not be enabled _by_ _default_
>>>>> but users may still enable it manually.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At present, as of -Beta3, TB78's OpenPGP support is badly broken.
>>>>> No, it's incomplete - work in progress. That's not quite the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Patrick
>

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Patrick Brunschwig writes:
> Andreas Boehlk Computer-Service wrote on 31.05.2020 11:09:
> ...
>>>> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such
>>>> as encrypting a file?
>>>
>>> That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP
>>> in Thunderbird is that you use it for email.
>>>
>> That is correct, but nevertheless it is mandatory to have
>> and use a single key-store.
>
> For which use-case precisely? If you only use OpenPGP for emails
> (and given the users I know who had support cases in the past,
> this is true for the majority of the Enigmail users), then
> this is irrelevant.
>
> To be quite clear: Thunderbird will not support GnuPG for scenarios
> other than handling secret keys. And that's only because the
> OpenPGP library they use can't handle smartcards yet. Once
> the library will support smartcards, I expect that GnuPG support
> will be removed entirely.

Just out of curiosity, but knowing that this is not relevant
to standard users.

As encrypted mails cannot easily be malware scanned and even
if they were might contain really hard-to-detect social engineering
attacks, therefore systems running mail software are at a higher.
Hence to avoid full system compromise, running mail software
in virtual machines. With Enigmail I used some simple tool [0]
to act instead of gnupg, intercept all calls to forward them
over network and then filter all requests via whitelists before
passing the real requests to gnupg. Thus no private keys were
available on the risky desktop system (same as with smartcards), the
desktop system had never full access to the private key (each
whitelisted sign/encrypt operation had also to be reviewed and
confirmed outside the virtual machine) and thus even full system
compromise on root level would not compromise the keys the same
way as a directly attached smart-card could be (pin stolen on
desktop system or card used by Mallory while being unlocked).

With smartcard support fully built into TB, which method for
external filtering would you deem most appropriate? Have a custom
virtual-smartcard library, that forwards the requests over network?
Have a virtual-smartcard reader device attached to the virtual
machine, that intercepts requests and forwards them to a real
smartcard reader?

hd

[0] https://www.halfdog.net/Projects/CryptoTools/RemoteGnupg/ (outdated!)


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On Fri, 29 May 2020 14:43, karel-v_g--- said:

> But it's a pity that Thunderbird developed its own solution because of
> licensing issues while we have a proven working solution with GnuPG...

For the records: There is no licensing issue; it is just a Mozilla
policy issue not to use or depend on software which is not fully under
their policy control. We have had long discussions with them more than
15 years ago with the result: no OpenPGP support and no improvements to
their (back then) not very well working S/MIME code. This decision
forced us to implement S/MIME in GnuPG and is also one of the reasons
why Patrick does not use GPGME has interface to GnuPG, despite that it
is a well tested, maintained, and widely used (think Windows) interface
to GnuPG.


Shalom-Salam,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

On Sun, 31 May 2020 12:35, Patrick Brunschwig said:

> Let's first define Standard users. The majority of users who use
> smartcards that *I* know are expert or power users. They can handle this.

I have a different experience here and we are actually promoting the use
of smartcards because they better protect your private key and it is
easy to explain why users need to take care of their card than of a
bunch of files in the GnuPG home directory.

> The "Standard users" I have in mind don't use GnuPG for anything else
> than encrypting mails, and they don't use smartcards either. They won't
> have this issue in any way.

The standard user clicks right on a file icon, encrypts the file, and
sends it as attachment using his MUA. That is an easy to teach and
understand workflow and does not require any special MUA. Well, Outlook
users are more and more using the well integrated support we provide in
Gpg4win.


Salam-Shalom,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

On Sun, 31 May 2020 11:10, David Flory said:

> How does one identify a v3 key?

By trying to import it with gpg; you should get a hint that v3 keys are
not anymore supported.


Salam-Shalom,

Werner

--
Die Gedanken sind frei. Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.

Hello Patrick,

> Let's first define Standard users. The majority of users who use
> smartcards that *I* know are expert or power users. They can handle this.
>
> The "Standard users" I have in mind don't use GnuPG for anything else
> than encrypting mails, and they don't use smartcards either. They won't
> have this issue in any way.

I'm sorry but I have to contradict you in that topic.
I found out that more 'standard users' than I thought are using
Smartcards or Tokens like Nitrokey or Yubikey (or anything similiar).
It is requested in security/gpg workshops more and more, and in the last
3 or 4 workshops I've held, each of the 15 participiants already had a
Smartcard or Token and wanted to know how to use them.

So I think this is not just a topic for 'professional or power users'
but also for so called standard users.

best regards from Austria
Juergen

--
Juergen M. Bruckner

Am 31.05.2020 um 12:35 schrieb Patrick Brunschwig:
> Andreas Boehlk Computer-Service wrote on 31.05.2020 11:09:
>> Hello Patrick,
>>
>>
>> Am 31.05.2020 um 10:01 schrieb Patrick Brunschwig:
>>> Mark wrote on 31.05.2020 01:28:
>>>> Doesn't TB also need your secret keys to decrypt messages? 
>>>
>>> With smartcard support via GnuPG, all secret key operations are handled
>>> by GnuPG, and all public key operations are handled by TB (Note: the
>>> standard case, without smartcard support, will be that all keys are in
>>> Thunderbird).
>>>
>>> The use-cases are clearly distinct:
>>> - encryption: you only need public keys
>>> - decryption: you only need secret keys
>>> - signing: you only need secret keys
>>> - verification: you only need public keys
>>>
>> The standard user will not be able to work with that "solution".
>> Compared to the "enigmail-solution" this is the hell and bound to fail.
>
> Let's first define Standard users. The majority of users who use
> smartcards that *I* know are expert or power users. They can handle this.
>
> The "Standard users" I have in mind don't use GnuPG for anything else
> than encrypting mails, and they don't use smartcards either. They won't
> have this issue in any way.
>
>>>> Also what if you need your public keys outside of TB such as encrypting
>>>> a file?
>>>
>>> That's not supported by Thunderbird. The idea of OpenPGP in Thunderbird
>>> is that you use it for email.
>>>
>> That is correct, but nevertheless it is mandatory to have and use a
>> single key-store.
>
> For which use-case precisely? If you only use OpenPGP for emails (and
> given the users I know who had support cases in the past, this is true
> for the majority of the Enigmail users), then this is irrelevant.
>
The use cases are clear and I myself and some of my clients use them.
And when I speak from my point of view it is enough work to take care of
one key store and I personally do not want to have a second one; and
this second one has to be synchronized on every single endpoint as well.
That is twice the work.

> To be quite clear: Thunderbird will not support GnuPG for scenarios
> other than handling secret keys. And that's only because the OpenPGP
> library they use can't handle smartcards yet. Once the library will
> support smartcards, I expect that GnuPG support will be removed entirely.
>
From then on PGP and the second key store will be mandatory for the
purpose of signing and decrypting.

> Note: I'm not a Thunderbird developer and I don't drive Thunderbird
> decisions -- this is simply my expectation of what will happen.
>
Yes, I got that of course.
It is just my lack of understanding TB's decision to not trying to adapt
a running system in a proper way.
> -Patrick
>
Andreas