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On 23 Sep 2006, at 20:38, Simon Michael wrote:
> Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
> incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki and merge the
> links from http://www.zope.org/Wikis/FrontPage . A zwiki product
> upgrade would be needed. I'm cc'ing the websites group/list (and
> tried to set followup-to there, but I use gmane so we'll see what
> happens..)

+1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope
instance, rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.

I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?

jens

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I'm +1 too, but think we can call it wiki.zope.org.

On 9/23/06, Jens Vagelpohl <jens@dataflake.org> wrote:
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>
> On 23 Sep 2006, at 20:38, Simon Michael wrote:
> > Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
> > incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki and merge the
> > links from http://www.zope.org/Wikis/FrontPage . A zwiki product
> > upgrade would be needed. I'm cc'ing the websites group/list (and
> > tried to set followup-to there, but I use gmane so we'll see what
> > happens..)
>
> +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope
> instance, rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.
>
> I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?
>
> jens
>
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>


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Hey,

I missed this so I'm very happy Jens cc-ed this onto this list.

> Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
> incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki

> +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope instance,
> rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.
>
> I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?

Consider this a foundation decision, let's do it. zope.org/wiki is the
way to go.

Separate instance with rewrite rules sounds a good plan to me.

Jens, do you have enough zope.org fu to get this set up? Right now the
whole zope.org is technically a complete unknown to me. Right now the
implementation is the only thing stopping this from going ahead. :)

Regards,

Martijn
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On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:05, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
> > incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki
>
> > +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope
> instance,
> > rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.
> >
> > I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?
>
> Consider this a foundation decision, let's do it. zope.org/wiki is
> the way to go.
>
> Separate instance with rewrite rules sounds a good plan to me.
>
> Jens, do you have enough zope.org fu to get this set up? Right now
> the whole zope.org is technically a complete unknown to me. Right
> now the implementation is the only thing stopping this from going
> ahead. :)

Unfortunately all the pieces "above" Zope, like rewrite setups, are
out of reach and only accessible by ZC. I believe there's Squid in
front, and the rewrites are handled by a rewriter process.

Additionally, there is no good information about the appserver tier,
either. I was under the impression there were two, but when I tried
to access them both I thought I always ended up on one and the same
host.

I don't know what the schedule is for the foundation to start hosting
this, but I'd argue for starting the systems setup from scratch and
adding new settings then.

jens

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This is all documented in subversion IIRC. Jim will know.

Andrew


On 9/25/06 6:38 AM, "Jens Vagelpohl" <jens@dataflake.org> wrote:

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> On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:05, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
>>> incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki
>>
>>> +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope
>> instance,
>>> rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.
>>>
>>> I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?
>>
>> Consider this a foundation decision, let's do it. zope.org/wiki is
>> the way to go.
>>
>> Separate instance with rewrite rules sounds a good plan to me.
>>
>> Jens, do you have enough zope.org fu to get this set up? Right now
>> the whole zope.org is technically a complete unknown to me. Right
>> now the implementation is the only thing stopping this from going
>> ahead. :)
>
> Unfortunately all the pieces "above" Zope, like rewrite setups, are
> out of reach and only accessible by ZC. I believe there's Squid in
> front, and the rewrites are handled by a rewriter process.
>
> Additionally, there is no good information about the appserver tier,
> either. I was under the impression there were two, but when I tried
> to access them both I thought I always ended up on one and the same
> host.
>
> I don't know what the schedule is for the foundation to start hosting
> this, but I'd argue for starting the systems setup from scratch and
> adding new settings then.
>
> jens
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web


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Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
[snip]
> I don't know what the schedule is for the foundation to start hosting
> this, but I'd argue for starting the systems setup from scratch and
> adding new settings then.

We don't have a schedule yet. I agree that doing a systems setup with
community-understood components will be something we'll have to do at
some point.

I would like to be able to get things going before we redo the whole
hosting infrastructure, though... How much work do you think it would be
to set up the current zope.org on a new system?

Regards,

Martijn

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If it is simply taking what's running and set it up on a new set of servers,
it would be fairly trivial. There's 1 or 2 zeo client servers. There's a
storage server. There's cvs/svn and mail and ldap lives some where in that
mix. :) That's about it.

Andrew



On 9/25/06 7:59 AM, "Martijn Faassen" <faassen@infrae.com> wrote:

> Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> [snip]
>> I don't know what the schedule is for the foundation to start hosting
>> this, but I'd argue for starting the systems setup from scratch and
>> adding new settings then.
>
> We don't have a schedule yet. I agree that doing a systems setup with
> community-understood components will be something we'll have to do at
> some point.
>
> I would like to be able to get things going before we redo the whole
> hosting infrastructure, though... How much work do you think it would be
> to set up the current zope.org on a new system?
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web


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Andrew Sawyers wrote:
> This is all documented in subversion IIRC. Jim will know.

We need to make sure there are people in the foundation (besides Jim and
ZC) who know. I'll ask Jim.

Regards,

Martijn

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On 25 Sep 2006, at 14:31, Andrew Sawyers wrote:

> If it is simply taking what's running and set it up on a new set of
> servers,
> it would be fairly trivial. There's 1 or 2 zeo client servers.
> There's a
> storage server. There's cvs/svn and mail and ldap lives some where
> in that
> mix. :) That's about it.

That's not trivial by any stretch of the imagination... If you
wanted to rebuild that whole infrastructure you're be siting there a
couple days I'd think.

I don't know if there are (working) automated buildouts, if there
aren't then the only way to get a working ZEO client quickly would be
to copy a complete instance, file by file, from the old system and
then recompile anything that is compiled.

jens



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Read what I wrote. :)
A


On 9/25/06 8:38 AM, "Jens Vagelpohl" <jens@dataflake.org> wrote:

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> On 25 Sep 2006, at 14:31, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
>
>> If it is simply taking what's running and set it up on a new set of
>> servers,
>> it would be fairly trivial. There's 1 or 2 zeo client servers.
>> There's a
>> storage server. There's cvs/svn and mail and ldap lives some where
>> in that
>> mix. :) That's about it.
>
> That's not trivial by any stretch of the imagination... If you
> wanted to rebuild that whole infrastructure you're be siting there a
> couple days I'd think.
>
> I don't know if there are (working) automated buildouts, if there
> aren't then the only way to get a working ZEO client quickly would be
> to copy a complete instance, file by file, from the old system and
> then recompile anything that is compiled.
>
> jens
>
>
>
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On 25 Sep 2006, at 15:39, Andrew Sawyers wrote:

> Read what I wrote. :)


I read what you wrote and I do not think it is trivial.

jens


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On 9/25/06, Jens Vagelpohl <jens@dataflake.org> wrote:
> I read what you wrote and I do not think it is trivial.

I agree. I'd guess that for somebody that knows the LDAP software
better than me, it might take a day or two. That's not "trivial". It's
also not "hard". I'd call it ehm, "Not too hard". :-)

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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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There's a lot more to it then LDAP. LDAP doesn't make it hard, it just
makes it harder.
The goal (or lack thereof) will make it hard or trivial. Regardless, I
didn't say rebuilding everything from scratch and sorting out the 'mess'. I
said if it's just resetting up on a different group of servers.

Regardless, it's always subjective - and it's not that hard. :)

A


On 9/25/06 9:56 AM, "Lennart Regebro" <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/25/06, Jens Vagelpohl <jens@dataflake.org> wrote:
>> I read what you wrote and I do not think it is trivial.
>
> I agree. I'd guess that for somebody that knows the LDAP software
> better than me, it might take a day or two. That's not "trivial". It's
> also not "hard". I'd call it ehm, "Not too hard". :-)


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On 9/25/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
> There's a lot more to it then LDAP. LDAP doesn't make it hard

For me it does. That's why I said "somebody that knows it better than me". :-)

> Regardless, it's always subjective - and it's not that hard. :)

"Not that hard" sounds like a reasonable compromise. :-)
Now, when we agree that this is "not that hard" do we think we should do it?

Personally, I don't care where www.zope.org is currently located, and
I also think we should replace it part by part with microsites, like
wiki.zope.org, bugs.zope.org, news.zope.org, products.zope.org and so
on, until www.zope.org gets useless, and we can move it to
old.zope.org and replace it with a new snazzy front-page, linking to
all the other sites.

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On 9/25/06 10:04 AM, "Lennart Regebro" <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/25/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
>> There's a lot more to it then LDAP. LDAP doesn't make it hard
>
> For me it does. That's why I said "somebody that knows it better than me". :-)
>
>> Regardless, it's always subjective - and it's not that hard. :)
>
> "Not that hard" sounds like a reasonable compromise. :-)
> Now, when we agree that this is "not that hard" do we think we should do it?
Not sure, what's the goal? :)

The reason it should be done, would be to improve the underlying hardware.
The other reason would be so that the community can manage all aspects of
it's setup. If it's still like it was, then parts of the architecture are
not going to be accessible by anyone in the community. If I were doing it,
I would put as little effort into the existing setup as possible and all
effort into where it's going.

> Personally, I don't care where www.zope.org is currently located, and
> I also think we should replace it part by part with microsites, like
> wiki.zope.org, bugs.zope.org, news.zope.org, products.zope.org and so
> on, until www.zope.org gets useless, and we can move it to
> old.zope.org and replace it with a new snazzy front-page, linking to
> all the other sites.
That's easily done with rewrite rules at the cache.

Andrew




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On 9/25/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
> The reason it should be done, would be to improve the underlying hardware.
> The other reason would be so that the community can manage all aspects of
> it's setup. If it's still like it was, then parts of the architecture are
> not going to be accessible by anyone in the community. If I were doing it,
> I would put as little effort into the existing setup as possible and all
> effort into where it's going.

I totaly agree with that.

--
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On 25 Sep 2006, at 16:10, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
> The reason it should be done, would be to improve the underlying
> hardware.
> The other reason would be so that the community can manage all
> aspects of
> it's setup. If it's still like it was, then parts of the
> architecture are
> not going to be accessible by anyone in the community. If I were
> doing it,
> I would put as little effort into the existing setup as possible
> and all
> effort into where it's going.

+100

jens



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Lennart Regebro wrote:
> On 9/25/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
>> The reason it should be done, would be to improve the underlying
>> hardware. The other reason would be so that the community can
>> manage all aspects of it's setup. If it's still like it was, then
>> parts of the architecture are not going to be accessible by anyone
>> in the community. If I were doing it, I would put as little effort
>> into the existing setup as possible and all effort into where it's
>> going.
>
> I totaly agree with that.
>

Me too. I'm trying to figure out how to get from here to there.
Preferably I just let zope.org be what it is, and surround it with stuff
that runs from new instances, either as foo.zope.org or zope.org/foo.

We have several candidates to run from other instances:

Particular applications:

planet.zope.org
wiki.zope.org

Fairly simple websites, at least to start out, later we can move to CMS:

www.zope.org/foundation
www.zope.org/zope3

and whatever our projects infrastructure will be like:

big projects:

www.zope.org/projects/cmf
www.zope.org/projects/zc.buildout

and smaller projects:

www.zope.org/projects/zc.resourcelibrary
www.zope.org/projects/zc.table

Regards,

Martijn

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Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Andrew Sawyers wrote:
>> This is all documented in subversion IIRC. Jim will know.
>
> We need to make sure there are people in the foundation (besides Jim and
> ZC) who know. I'll ask Jim.

Actually strike out 'foundation' and read 'community' in the line above.

Regards,

Martijn

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We just need to resurface the svn location of the doc and update if
necessary.

A


On 9/25/06 11:18 AM, "Martijn Faassen" <faassen@infrae.com> wrote:

> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Andrew Sawyers wrote:
>>> This is all documented in subversion IIRC. Jim will know.
>>
>> We need to make sure there are people in the foundation (besides Jim and
>> ZC) who know. I'll ask Jim.
>
> Actually strike out 'foundation' and read 'community' in the line above.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>


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On Sep 25, 2006, at 6:38 AM, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:

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> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:05, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> > Incidentally I'd like to float the idea of moving zopewiki to (some
>> > incarnation of) zope.org. Eg put it at zope.org/wiki
>>
>> > +1 on the idea, it wouldn't even have to be in the same Zope
>> instance,
>> > rewrite rules can do the stitching-in.
>> >
>> > I'd assume this is more of a foundation decision, though?
>>
>> Consider this a foundation decision, let's do it. zope.org/wiki is
>> the way to go.
>>
>> Separate instance with rewrite rules sounds a good plan to me.
>>
>> Jens, do you have enough zope.org fu to get this set up? Right now
>> the whole zope.org is technically a complete unknown to me. Right
>> now the implementation is the only thing stopping this from going
>> ahead. :)
>
> Unfortunately all the pieces "above" Zope, like rewrite setups, are
> out of reach and only accessible by ZC.

Right.


> I believe there's Squid in front, and the rewrites are handled by a
> rewriter process.

Yup.

> Additionally, there is no good information about the appserver
> tier, either. I was under the impression there were two, but when I
> tried to access them both I thought I always ended up on one and
> the same host.

There are 4 instances running on two hosts. There is a storage/LDAP
server. There is a pool of squid servers and load balancers. There
is the machine that goes by many names, including svn.zope.org,
cvs.zope.org, and mail.zope.org. The squid servers are load
balancers are shared with our commercial customers.

Jim

--
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CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org



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Andrew Sawyers wrote:
> We just need to resurface the svn location of the doc and update if
> necessary.

Working on getting it.

Regards,

Martijn
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On 9/25/06, Jim Fulton <jim@zope.com> wrote:
> > Unfortunately all the pieces "above" Zope, like rewrite setups, are
> > out of reach and only accessible by ZC.
>
> Right.

So... A minimum change would be to move name servering to somewhere
controlled by ZF?

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Lennart Regebro wrote:
> On 9/25/06, Jim Fulton <jim@zope.com> wrote:
>> > Unfortunately all the pieces "above" Zope, like rewrite setups, are
>> > out of reach and only accessible by ZC.
>>
>> Right.
>
> So... A minimum change would be to move name servering to somewhere
> controlled by ZF?

Yes, this is something Jim actually just proposed as well.

Regards,

Martijn
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