Mailing List Archive: Zope Collector policies?

Zope Collector policies?

Apr 11, 2006, 2:00 PM

Post #1 of 8 (4273 views)

Hi,

I feel there is a mismatch between the policies for the Zope collectors and
the text on the entry page of these collectors, which seems to frustrate both
users and the developers caring about the collectors.

The start page of the zope collectors at http://www.zope.org/Collectors/ just
contains a few general sentences, mostly saying that submitters are welcome,
and state some rather vague requirements on the bugs.

At least for the Zope collector it is not the case that just all submitters
are welcome; instead there seems to be a strict policy about submissions
requiring:

- patches must come with unit test proving the patch fixes some issue
- patches for new features must apply to the trunk
- bug reports should at least include the traceback
- only supported combinations of python/zope are supported, and issues
should be reproduceable with a stock Zope installation without add-ons
...
(at least I think these are some of the requirements).

All users violating the policy are told about their mistake very strictly
by Andreas Jung then. However, none of these requirements are mentioned
on the start page for the collector.

Other projects do have such requirements stated in big letters on their
bug trackers front page; these might even include to ask first on the relevant
mailing list before reporting a bug.
I think its better to tell people in advance that to have to tell them later
that their bug report does not meet the checklist.

Does anyone share my point of view the collector overview page should state
the requirements explicitely? If yes, is there any interest that I try to
formulate some alternative text for the front page (which would need to be
polished by some native speaker)?

Oh, and has anyone pointers to the real collector policies?

Cheers,
Clemens

P.S. apologies if I am on the wrong list - if so, has anyone pointers about a better
place to post this?
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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

lists at zopyx

Apr 11, 2006, 9:44 PM

Post #2 of 8 (4110 views)

Permalink

--On 11. April 2006 23:00:01 +0200 Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar
<crobbenhaar@web.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I feel there is a mismatch between the policies for the Zope collectors
> and
> the text on the entry page of these collectors, which seems to frustrate
> both
> users and the developers caring about the collectors.

I agree.

> are welcome; instead there seems to be a strict policy about submissions
> requiring:
>
> - patches must come with unit test proving the patch fixes some issue

"should come": untested code is basically broken (to cite Stefan Holek).
In addition a patch is more likely to be accepted by a supporter if is has
tests.

> - patches for new features must apply to the trunk

nothing to add, this is a common rule for Zope 2 and Zope 3

> - bug reports should at least include the traceback

nothing to add, asking a bunch of times back get the necessary information
to get even a clue about a problem is one the most of annoying thing when
dealing with bugreports

> - only supported combinations of python/zope are supported, and issues
> should be reproduceable with a stock Zope installation without add-ons
> ...

Bascially yes, but we also have an eye on the major frameworks like CMF &
Plone.

>
> All users violating the policy are told about their mistake very strictly
> by Andreas Jung then. However, none of these requirements are mentioned
> on the start page for the collector.

..basically because the collector is often misunderstood as discussion
board and helpdesk.

>
> Other projects do have such requirements stated in big letters on their
> bug trackers front page; these might even include to ask first on the
> relevant
> mailing list before reporting a bug.
> I think its better to tell people in advance that to have to tell them
> later
> that their bug report does not meet the checklist.

Nothing against a false bugreport as long as it is clear, understandable
and reasonable. But weird and incomplete bug reports have the best chance
to be ignored and rejected.

>
> Does anyone share my point of view the collector overview page should
> state
> the requirements explicitely? If yes, is there any interest that I try to
> formulate some alternative text for the front page (which would need to be
> polished by some native speaker)?

I would definitely appreciate that.

>
> P.S. apologies if I am on the wrong list - if so, has anyone pointers
> about a better
> place to post this?

zope-dev would have been better.

Andreas

Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

simon at joyful

Apr 12, 2006, 5:41 AM

Post #3 of 8 (4109 views)

Permalink

> Does anyone share my point of view the collector overview page should
> state the requirements explicitely?

If they must be so demanding, then yes, very much so.

Also you raised this just where I'd expect to see it.

Thanks,
-Simon

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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

crobbenhaar at web

Apr 12, 2006, 1:32 PM

Post #4 of 8 (4119 views)

Permalink

Hi Andreas, Simon

just a short reply:

Thank You very much for the feedback, especially
the clarifications on the bug report requirements.

Andreas:
[big snip]
>
> zope-dev would have been better.
>
As it seems, the bug report policies are not really written
down yet. I understand it might be a better idea to open
a discussion on zope-dev first to clarify the policies there.

Simon:
>
> Also you raised this just where I'd expect to see it.
>
Well, as the issue seem not to be only about formulations,
I will first see how the discussion on zope-dev comes out,
and then come back here; I hope this is ok for You, too.

It seems I caught a little flue, so I will post next
to zope-dev after easter, sorry

Cheers anyway,
Clemens
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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

rob.page at zope

Apr 12, 2006, 3:03 PM

Post #5 of 8 (4112 views)

Permalink

Hi Clemens and Simon:

On Apr 12, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Simon Michael wrote:

>> Does anyone share my point of view the collector overview page
>> should state the requirements explicitely?
>
> If they must be so demanding, then yes, very much so.
>
> Also you raised this just where I'd expect to see it.

Yep agreed..

I've not seen these requirements spelled out clearly. So, at the
very least, I think it would be a good idea, Clemens, to do so and
make them available. :^)

That said, what do you and Simon think of these de facto
requirements. I'm no developer but I can see that some might find
them draconian and some might find them absolutely necessary for scale.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Rob

--
Rob Page V: 540 361 1710
Zope Corporation F: 703 995 0412

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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

simon at joyful

Apr 13, 2006, 12:14 AM

Post #6 of 8 (4111 views)

Permalink

Well since you ask..

I fear that they sound like the usual style of A. Jung's School of Hard
Knocks For Newbies. No offense intended Andreas.

Those are valuable goals but we should pursue them in a way that does not
drive away even one would-be contributor. I've found myself in that
category on many projects, and it's not fun to have your good will squashed
instead of channeled constructively. It's the Zope community's loss when
that happens. People go where they're treated with respect. I think it's up
to the Zope community to make it's tools and communications and parsing of
feedback more efficient - not up to the rest of the world to become
top-percentile developers before we will allow them to offer a frickin bug
report!

The clearest up-front communication of current procedures and policy,
whatever they are, is absolutely a great low-cost high-impact move and I'm
glad Clemens was persistent enough to propose and drive it.

-Simon
who seems to have to opinions on this..

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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

lists at zopyx

Apr 13, 2006, 1:16 AM

Post #7 of 8 (4119 views)

Permalink

--On 13. April 2006 00:14:21 -0700 Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:

> Well since you ask..
>
> I fear that they sound like the usual style of A. Jung's School of Hard
> Knocks For Newbies. No offense intended Andreas.
>

Other projects are similar. Go to the Mozilla/Firefox bugzilla instance.
First they tell you to search if your issue isn't already in the bugtracker.
Then you fill out a form where you need to clearly describe your problem
and fill out point 1,2,3... to reproduce the problem. So people should
use their brain before posting "something"...also newbies can and do post
valuable bug reports. We are talking about a certain group of users that
has some certain expectations about the bug tracker is and that have no idea
*how* report properly. For my own projects I have a similar "bug reporting
guideline"...and usually most users are really able to posting something
reasonable after pointing them to the guidelines..call it "how to educate
users to report bugs"...I think there is nothing offending here..

just-my-2-cents,
-aj

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Re: Zope Collector policies? [ In reply to ]

jens at dataflake

Apr 13, 2006, 1:57 AM

Post #8 of 8 (4088 views)

Permalink

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On 13 Apr 2006, at 09:16, Andreas Jung wrote:

> --On 13. April 2006 00:14:21 -0700 Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well since you ask..
>>
>> I fear that they sound like the usual style of A. Jung's School of
>> Hard
>> Knocks For Newbies. No offense intended Andreas.
>>
>
> Other projects are similar. Go to the Mozilla/Firefox bugzilla
> instance.
> First they tell you to search if your issue isn't already in the
> bugtracker.
> Then you fill out a form where you need to clearly describe your
> problem
> and fill out point 1,2,3... to reproduce the problem. So people should
> use their brain before posting "something"...also newbies can and
> do post
> valuable bug reports. We are talking about a certain group of
> users that has some certain expectations about the bug tracker is
> and that have no idea
> *how* report properly. For my own projects I have a similar "bug
> reporting
> guideline"...and usually most users are really able to posting
> something reasonable after pointing them to the guidelines..call it
> "how to educate
> users to report bugs"...I think there is nothing offending here..

For scaling I would consider it absolutely necessary to have specific
rules. If the collector is some free-for-all where anyone can dump
stuff in unstructured ways then it will become completely useless.

On the one hand the goal is to be all-inclusive, to shift the burden
from the bug reporter to the problem solver. I think that's short-
sighted. Please keep in mind that the problem solvers themselves are
volunteers. Newbies could be turned away by rules that put more of a
burden on them, but at the same time experienced developers can be
turned away by being forced to consider any and all posting to the
collector equally, be it a reasonable bug report or not.

There's two sides to this issue, not just "please don't beat the poor
newbies".

jens

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