Mailing List Archive

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about presenting
> up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get people to edit
> the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all for it. I have my
> doubts that we'll get enough community interest in doing so however, but
> I'd love to be wrong about that.

If you could get it is some simple format that's svn'ed and easilly
editable/updateable, I'd love to chip in when I can.

No-one has every wanted to get that initial step done though :-/

Chris

--
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- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Chris Withers wrote:

> Tonico Strasser wrote:
>
>> IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design
>> complexity, is to get rid of the /Members section, including log
>> in/log out, and the whole TTW content management system.
>>
>> I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This
>> would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)
>
>
> Although you loose the place that many people use to store their
> products for distribution :-/
>
> Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is
> worth it...



If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science

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On 2/9/06, Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> wrote:
> I'm still hopeful we can at least swap out zope.org's frontpage and
> initial pages with something better that describes both Zope 2, Zope 3,
> and its relationship. Quite a bit of text is already written that
> attempts that which is in codespeak svn.

Well, just changing the texts on the frontpage is probably not a bite
that is too big to chew. ;-) But other than that, I think we should
focus on having a zope3.org.
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On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:28 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> But other than that, I think we should
> focus on having a zope3.org.
A zope.org and zope3.org?

Andrew
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On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:09 +0100, Max M wrote:
> Chris Withers wrote:
>
>
> If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)
>

I know Max is kidding; but to comment to Chris. One of the main
problems to avoid is 'kruft' and bit-rot. zope.org suffers this to the
point of atrophy. People can put products for distribution on
sourceforge or private sites. I would presume some crafty community
member might even come up with something; and then we can get feed data
or the like from them for display on the site.

zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.

Andrew

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On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 00:05 +0000, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi Martijn,
>

>
> I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch
> web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content, not
> creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want to
> promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a candle to
> e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the rest of the
> python world may take more of an interest in it.
>
I tend to agree with Martin here; except that i don't think there should
be a goal of 'reducing' content if this were to be a redux of zope.org.
We should just 'redo' it for the structure that is being laid out and
retire the old site as old.zope.org IMNSHO.

Andrew
>
>

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On 2/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:28 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> > But other than that, I think we should
> > focus on having a zope3.org.
> A zope.org and zope3.org?

Yup.

--
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On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:00:43 -0000, Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk>
wrote:

> Tonico Strasser wrote:
>> IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity,
>> is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and
>> the whole TTW content management system.
>> I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This
>> would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)
>
> Although you loose the place that many people use to store their
> products for distribution :-/
>
> Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is
> worth it...

We solved this by providing them a better place to put their products. :)

http://plone.org/products

I realise that running this thing on Plone may not be feasible, but Plone
has put a lot of effort into the /products and /documentation sections
(and more updates are en-route, as soon as limi gets a few spare cycles).

Martin

--
(muted)

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On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:28:22 -0000, Andrew Sawyers <andrew@sawdog.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:09 +0100, Max M wrote:
>> Chris Withers wrote:
>>
>>
>> If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)
>>
>
> I know Max is kidding; but to comment to Chris. One of the main
> problems to avoid is 'kruft' and bit-rot. zope.org suffers this to the
> point of atrophy. People can put products for distribution on
> sourceforge or private sites.

Sourceforge is probably the worst way to make your software available from
an end-user perspective. sf.net has done amazing things for hundreds of
open source communities by making resources available, but the process of
obtaining a project status (whilst necessary to avoid project spam) is a
barrier to many, and the poor usability of their systems (we had to
explain to experienced developers how the sf.net tracker worked, they
didn't understand it, and the way they organise downloads is so confusing
people just give up) makes it difficult for many who are just looking for
things to download.

> I would presume some crafty community
> member might even come up with something; and then we can get feed data
> or the like from them for display on the site.

Something like http://plone.org/products? We've had *huge* success by
making this tool available to people. By giving products a place to
organise themselves, people find them much easier. By giving them tools to
manage releases and roadmaps, and individual issue trackers that notify
the project owners when people submit bugs (all of this is optional)
maintainers are better at keeping their software up-to-date and more
responsive to their users.

> zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.

Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community site, with wikis and
the lot, where the community can play their games, and a zope3.org and/or
a zope.org that is the outward facing part of the community, much more
tightly controlled for quality and consistency?

Martin



--
(muted)

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On Feb 9, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community
> site, with wikis and the lot, where the community can
> play their games, and a zope3.org and/or a zope.org
> that is the outward facing part of the community,
> much more tightly controlled for quality and
> consistency?

+1

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> Something like http://plone.org/products?
Why not? If it fits the bill.

>
> > zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.
>
> Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community site, with wikis and
> the lot, where the community can play their games, and a zope3.org and/or
> a zope.org that is the outward facing part of the community, much more
> tightly controlled for quality and consistency?
The problem IMO is that the two sites are now tightly coupled and the
bit rot of one immediately effects the other. If there is no clear tie
between the two (read no way for the 'anti-marketing' to effect Zope,
which is currently the case) there should be no reason why not to have
this. It should be two seperate projects though. I presume hardware
won't be an issue since Rob chimed in +1 :)

Andrew
> Martin
>
>
>

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On Thursday 09 February 2006 18:17, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>
> Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:
>
> * find the document you think would be good to have
>
> * propose it on this list
>

http://www.jrandolph.com/blog/?p=23#comment-324

has a good comment with good links.

http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
http://www.zope.org/Members/adytumsolutions/z3project_starter/z3project_starter_released

left out the other links since i think it's in the list already


> * if it gets the +1s, go ahead and contact the document author for
> permission to include it as part of a new zope(3).org and whether we can
> download and edit it. The list discussion can also result in a good
> place in the overall structure that we're developing that the document
> can be put into.
>
> * If we get this permission, reformat (if necessary) this document into
> restructured text and check it into our SVN. We need to have a credits
> file we need to update, and also a pattern in restructured text for
> marking the original author and editor of this document.
>
> > I actually quite like the Django tutorial
> > (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's
> > easy to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how
> > it works by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the
> > text.
> >
> > As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
> > through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
> > wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
> > mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message,
> > but in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful
> > and great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once.
> > People who want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to
> > discover all that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to
> > take that plunge.
>
> I agree completely with this. Less well structured information is
> beneficial to large amounts of confusing information.
>
> That said, I think having a section with links outside the site would
> still be useful, and I think it can be structured ("related material
> elsewhere" sections) in a way so that it doesn't disturb the main
> pattern of information. This is not of the primary importance though.
>
> >> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
> >> looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?
> >
> > We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)
>
> There are no coders here, we're just all copy editors and such. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
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bakhtiar a hamid wrote:
> On Thursday 09 February 2006 18:17, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>
>>Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:
>>
>>* find the document you think would be good to have
>>
>>* propose it on this list
>>
>
>
> http://www.jrandolph.com/blog/?p=23#comment-324
>
> has a good comment with good links.
>
> http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
> http://www.zope.org/Members/adytumsolutions/z3project_starter/z3project_starter_released
>
> left out the other links since i think it's in the list already

One of the best zope3 advocacy posts ever (it seems like Jason
is even convinced to switch back to z3). It should be definitely
recorded somewhere as a "success story".

Cheers,
Igor
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