Mailing List Archive

zope web status report 2006-02-06
Hi there,

In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of
what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need
to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff,
so please post your bits in this thread.

* some additions and refactoring were made on our texts. Lots more needs
to be done.

* some people still need access to codespeak - if you need access, drop
me a mail. If you already requested access and haven't gotten it yet,
please drop me a mail so I can put some pressure behind it all.

* Various discussions on the zope mailing lists have been taking away on
how to brand things. I've sending some mails to likely volunteers
inviting them into this project.

Is everybody on this list? Just wave your hand if you're here! Also
consider joining us on #zope-web on freenode.

We need to make some decisions:

Decisions
----------

* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well?
I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of
most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3
however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?

* we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast.
If so, someone will need to design it.

* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up
to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns
out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,
as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently
anti-marketing zope)

Volunteers
----------

* we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further.
We need a good marketing message.

* we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes
screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up
things, install things, make first steps.

* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
include it.

* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,
serious, but still exciting website for zope?

Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the
writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this
forward, but we need more people.

It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On Monday 06 February 2006 19:43, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of
> what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need
> to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff,
> so please post your bits in this thread.
>
> * some additions and refactoring were made on our texts. Lots more needs
> to be done.
>
> * some people still need access to codespeak - if you need access, drop
> me a mail. If you already requested access and haven't gotten it yet,
> please drop me a mail so I can put some pressure behind it all.
>

i don;t think i've asked for access yet, so i'm asking for one now

> * Various discussions on the zope mailing lists have been taking away on
> how to brand things. I've sending some mails to likely volunteers
> inviting them into this project.
>
> Is everybody on this list? Just wave your hand if you're here! Also
> consider joining us on #zope-web on freenode.
>
> We need to make some decisions:
>
> Decisions
> ----------
>
> * are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well?
> I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of
> most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3
> however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?

i'd suggest that we cover zope the technology, that actually means both 2,3
and five

what kind of tutorial are we talking about? user tutorials? dev tutorial?
user tutorial aka site development thru zmi, and some zope built in objects is
available from the elvis site tutorial (that comes with zope)

as for developing with zope 2, there's none afaict. There's zdg, but that's a
bit dated.

five tutorial is not availale, methinks



>
> * we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
> low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast.
> If so, someone will need to design it.

+1
>
> * are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up
> to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns
> out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,
> as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently
> anti-marketing zope)
>

a scheduled newslater will become like the zope weakly (pun intended) news
some time in the future :P

i'd think something like what planetzope.org is doing fits this well.
although we need to get the right feed for products and news.

> Volunteers
> ----------
>
> * we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further.
> We need a good marketing message.
>
> * we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes
> screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up
> things, install things, make first steps.
>
> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> include it.
>
> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,
> serious, but still exciting website for zope?
>
> Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the
> writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this
> forward, but we need more people.

not sure where i can help, probably i can help with reading up on the docs,
and probably organizing (i.e moving stuff around as instructed by
somebody) .. in other words, general work.


any eta for the site?

>
> It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> include it.

I hereby submitt my artilce. The license can be changed to ZPL or
public domain status or whatever you use.

http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html

ReST source: http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/zissue/trunk/z3in30m

Regards,
Baiju M
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Martijn Faassen wrote:
> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,
> serious, but still exciting website for zope?

Whether a site is exciting or not is purely subjective I think. I find
w3.org very exciting, but I guess many here don't ;)

Making a solid design should be possible, based on best practices.

I've seen that the basic site structure is already good documented, and
that you want to get rid of the /Members section - that should make
designers life easier, no (user-, workflow-, etc.) actions, no edit
forms to worry about.

http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/

Also, a definition of all different screens that need to be designed,
would help to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Home page, search page, search result page, document view, file view,
feedback form, ...

I, for one, fear the tremendous amount of different templates.

Tonico

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of
> what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need
> to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff,
> so please post your bits in this thread.
>
> Decisions
> ----------
>
> * are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up
> to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns
> out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,
> as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently
> anti-marketing zope)
>

I'm preparing to run a zope newsletter from the planetzope.org site. If
needed it could be (re)integrated with the new zopeweb at any time.

> Volunteers
> ----------
>
> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> include it.
>

I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.

I'd like to share that account with interested persons
(contact: michael@d2m.at)

>
> It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)
>

I'm almost always on ;)

Michael

--
http://zope.org/Members/d2m
http://planetzope.org

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.
I'm more than happy to continue.

http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html

The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback
along. Thanks.

-----------------------------
tom@modscape.com
www.modscape.com
-----------------------------


On Feb 7, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Tonico Strasser wrote:

> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
>> looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?
>
> Whether a site is exciting or not is purely subjective I think. I
> find w3.org very exciting, but I guess many here don't ;)
>
> Making a solid design should be possible, based on best practices.
>
> I've seen that the basic site structure is already good documented,
> and that you want to get rid of the /Members section - that should
> make designers life easier, no (user-, workflow-, etc.) actions, no
> edit forms to worry about.
>
> http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/
>
> Also, a definition of all different screens that need to be
> designed, would help to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
>
> Home page, search page, search result page, document view, file
> view, feedback form, ...
>
> I, for one, fear the tremendous amount of different templates.
>
> Tonico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:

>
> I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.
> I'm more than happy to continue.
>
> http://modscape.com/zope
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html
>
> The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback
> along. Thanks.

Looks good !

the left menu is quite heavy though, and does not solve the actual
Zope.org prblem: too much info on the front page

I am wondering if it could be rethaught, to be composed of 7 elements max.

Tarek

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>
> I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago. I'm
> more than happy to continue.
>
> http://modscape.com/zope
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html
>
> The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback
> along. Thanks.

Hi Tom,

I find the design looks clearly better than the current Zope.org.

In addition to the visual design changes I would suggest to implement
the new proposed structure provided at

<http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/>.

IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity,
is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and the
whole TTW content management system.

I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This would
also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)

Tonico

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On Feb 7, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Tonico Strasser wrote:

> Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>> I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months
>> ago. I'm more than happy to continue.
>> http://modscape.com/zope
>> http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
>> http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
>> http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html
>> The designs are standards based. Please send any comments,
>> feedback along. Thanks.
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> I find the design looks clearly better than the current Zope.org.
>
> In addition to the visual design changes I would suggest to
> implement the new proposed structure provided at
>
> <http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/>.
>
> IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design
> complexity, is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/
> log out, and the whole TTW content management system.

I agree. I'll look into this as well as the structure above. Thanks
for the feedback.

>
> I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This
> would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)
>
> Tonico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
baiju m wrote:
>>* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
>>need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
>>proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
>>grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
>>include it.
>
>
> I hereby submitt my artilce. The license can be changed to ZPL or
> public domain status or whatever you use.
>
> http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
>
> ReST source: http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/zissue/trunk/z3in30m

Awesome!

Can we check this into the zopeweb repository?

http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/

If you want access to the svn, please contact Philipp von Weitershausen
on that and tell him I sent you. :)

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
>
> I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.
> I'm more than happy to continue.
>
> http://modscape.com/zope
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
> http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html
>
> The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback
> along. Thanks.

I think this is a pretty good start, great! (and I saw this mockup
before, I'm just getting lost keeping track of everything, sorry!)

It is, unsurprisingly, rather inspired by the contents of the existing
zope.org. I want to remove a lot of the links on the homepage (or
somehow make them less prominent?) which might change the design. The
structure of a new site would also influence things.

Login option would just disappear. I wouldn't call it 'Zope community'
either, just "Zope"; we explicitly want to move away from a community
website.

Regards,

Martijn

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Michael Haubenwallner wrote:
[newsletter]
> I'm preparing to run a zope newsletter from the planetzope.org site. If
> needed it could be (re)integrated with the new zopeweb at any time.

Sounds like a good plan. You're willing to do the work, and we have a
venue (planetzope.org). We can integrate it with zopeweb when we're
ready. Thanks!

[snip]
> I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
> zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.
>
> I'd like to share that account with interested persons
> (contact: michael@d2m.at)

Is it okay if I just 'for' a lot of those links I have already to that
account? Then you can evaluate whether you're interested in actually
taking them up.

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

I have emailed Philipp twice about this in the last couple of weeks, and
still have received no response. Maybe he is too busy at this time?

Carlos de la Guardia


Awesome!
>
> Can we check this into the zopeweb repository?
>
> http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/
>
> If you want access to the svn, please contact Philipp von Weitershausen
> on that and tell him I sent you. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
>
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
>> zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.
>>
>> I'd like to share that account with interested persons
>> (contact: michael@d2m.at)
>
>
> Is it okay if I just 'for' a lot of those links I have already to that
> account? Then you can evaluate whether you're interested in actually
> taking them up.
>

Tagging bookmarks with 'for:zope3' is about the best you and others can
do to support the collection. No need to switch accounts. Thanks a lot !

Michael

--
http://zope.org/Members/d2m
http://planetzope.org

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On 2/7/06, Martijn Faassen <faassen@infrae.com> wrote:
> baiju m wrote:
> >
> > I hereby submitt my artilce. The license can be changed to ZPL or
> > public domain status or whatever you use.
> >
> > http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
> >
> > ReST source: http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/zissue/trunk/z3in30m
>
> Awesome!
>
> Can we check this into the zopeweb repository?

Yes, surely.

> http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/
>
> If you want access to the svn, please contact Philipp von Weitershausen
> on that and tell him I sent you. :)

Ok, I will contact Philipp von Weitershausen.

Regards,
Baiju M
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Carlos de la Guardia wrote:
> I have emailed Philipp twice about this in the last couple of weeks, and
> still have received no response. Maybe he is too busy at this time?

I contacted Philipp; he was indeed very busy but will get around to
creating the accounts requested by next weekend.

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Hi Martijn,

> * are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well?
> I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of
> most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3
> however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?

I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch
web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content, not
creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want to
promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a candle to
e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the rest of the
python world may take more of an interest in it.

> * we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
> low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast.
> If so, someone will need to design it.

I think Paul Everitt has done some screen casts before. You should talk to
him about his experiences and what software he uses.

> * are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up
> to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns
> out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,
> as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently
> anti-marketing zope)

Who subscribes to a newsletter? :-)

Again, let's do the big-wins first. Newsletters can be added if the
traffic and volunteers warrant it.

> Volunteers
> ----------
>
> * we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further.
> We need a good marketing message.

I don't think I'm far enough into zope 3 to come up with much of this, but
I'm quite good with reviewing text and making sure it's clear, concise and
punchy. I'd certainly like to help with that.

> * we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes
> screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up
> things, install things, make first steps.

Yep. Paul may be able to offer some advice (or even help) here.

> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> include it.

I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely good.
Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis. This would
need review and control, not the potential to grow into another zope.org.
Existing documents would probably need to be reformatted for style and
layout, and we'd have to think carefully about providing a good picture.

I actually quite like the Django tutorial
(http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's easy
to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how it works
by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.

As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message, but
in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful and
great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once. People who
want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to discover all
that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to take that plunge.

> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,
> serious, but still exciting website for zope?

We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)

> Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the
> writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this
> forward, but we need more people.

I'd like to be nagged, more than anything. Kick me enough times, and I'll
help :)

> It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)

/me shouts a little

Martin


--
(muted)

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On 2/9/06, Martin Aspeli <optilude@gmx.net> wrote:
> > * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> > need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> > proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> > grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> > include it.
>
> I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely good.
> Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis. This would
> need review and control, not the potential to grow into another zope.org.
> Existing documents would probably need to be reformatted for style and
> layout, and we'd have to think carefully about providing a good picture.
>
> I actually quite like the Django tutorial
> (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's easy
> to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how it works
> by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.
>
> As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
> through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
> wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
> mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message, but
> in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful and
> great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once. People who
> want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to discover all
> that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to take that plunge.

I think we can have these kind of documentation:

Documentation
-------------

- Zope 3 Tutorial
- Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
- What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
- ZopeBook (Zope 2)
- ZDG (Zope 2)
- z3 static API docs
- Zope3Book
- FAQ
- HOWTOs

In addition to this, a wiki can also be included.

Zope 3 Tutorial

This will be the official tutorial for Zope3, like Python's or Django's
Tutorials. A trimmed down version of 'MessageBoard' application
can be used in this tutorial. This will help the user when reading Zope3Book.
This tutorial can be updated with every major releases.

FAQ

An FAQ like:
http://plone.org/documentation/faq
http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/index.py?req=index

HOWTOs

Tutorials covering special topics

Regards,
Baiju M
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:17:25 -0000, baiju m <baiju.m.mail@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we can have these kind of documentation:
>
> Documentation
> -------------
>
> - Zope 3 Tutorial
> - Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
> - What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
> - ZopeBook (Zope 2)
> - ZDG (Zope 2)

Do we really want to add to the confusion by throwing in old Zope 2
documentation, that still refers to Zope 2.6 and has one gazillion very
confusing in-line text comments?

If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great, clutting the
message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have some really great
zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted quite a bit) is not
likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get there too, but let's not
bite off more than we can chew the first iteration. The *worst* thing we
can do is launch a new site that has all the old sites' problems. :)

> - z3 static API docs
> - Zope3Book
> - FAQ
> - HOWTOs
>
> In addition to this, a wiki can also be included.

I think a wiki is the antithesis to well-organised, well-delivered
documentation. :) Wikis require significant gardening at the very least. I
certainly wouldn't rely on a wiki as the main vehicle of delivery.

> Zope 3 Tutorial
>
> This will be the official tutorial for Zope3, like Python's or
> Django's
> Tutorials. A trimmed down version of 'MessageBoard' application
> can be used in this tutorial. This will help the user when reading
> Zope3Book.
> This tutorial can be updated with every major releases.
>
> FAQ
>
> An FAQ like:
> http://plone.org/documentation/faq
> http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/index.py?req=index
>
> HOWTOs
>
> Tutorials covering special topics

Not sure if it's relevant, but the PloneHelpCenter that runs
http://plone.org/documentation is of course open source. :)

Martin

--
(muted)

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

Just one point.

On Feb 9, 2006, at 9:47 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:17:25 -0000, baiju m
> <baiju.m.mail@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think we can have these kind of documentation:
>>
>> Documentation
>> -------------
>>
>> - Zope 3 Tutorial
>> - Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
>> - What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
>> - ZopeBook (Zope 2)
>> - ZDG (Zope 2)
>
> Do we really want to add to the confusion by throwing in old Zope 2
> documentation, that still refers to Zope 2.6 and has one gazillion
> very confusing in-line text comments?
>
> If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great,
> clutting the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have
> some really great zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted
> quite a bit) is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get
> there too, but let's not bite off more than we can chew the first
> iteration. The *worst* thing we can do is launch a new site that
> has all the old sites' problems. :)

As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3 right
away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x server out
their still receive some kind of documentation support.

So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date -- this
should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x docs and
then focus on all things Zope 3.

Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.

Cheers,

Mark



_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi Martijn,
>
>> * are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as
>> well? I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the
>> breadwinner of most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily
>> for Zope 3 however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What
>> do we do?
>
> I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch
> web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content,
> not creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want
> to promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a
> candle to e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the
> rest of the python world may take more of an interest in it.

I agree that Zope 3 is what we can muster the most attention for.

I'm still hopeful we can at least swap out zope.org's frontpage and
initial pages with something better that describes both Zope 2, Zope 3,
and its relationship. Quite a bit of text is already written that
attempts that which is in codespeak svn.

From there on I expect we focus mostly on Zope 3.

Then again, I'd be okay too if we'd just end up with a zope3.org; I can
rewrite my text.

>> * we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
>> low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3"
>> screencast. If so, someone will need to design it.
>
> I think Paul Everitt has done some screen casts before. You should talk
> to him about his experiences and what software he uses.

Yes, he showed me some work he's doing on zope 3 related screencasts and
I think this is excellent. I'm not likely to starting to produce
screencasts myself directly any time soon, though for a Zope 3
beginner's tutorial I'm interested in contributing in working out the
sequence.

>> * are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be
>> up to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this
>> turns out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a
>> newsletter, as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is
>> currently anti-marketing zope)
>
> Who subscribes to a newsletter? :-)
>
> Again, let's do the big-wins first. Newsletters can be added if the
> traffic and volunteers warrant it.

See elsethread discussion with Michael Haubenwaller: the newsletter
effort will run on planetzope.org for the time being, so we can stop
worrying about it in the context of a zope website for now.

>> Volunteers
>> ----------
>>
>> * we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it
>> further. We need a good marketing message.
>
> I don't think I'm far enough into zope 3 to come up with much of this,
> but I'm quite good with reviewing text and making sure it's clear,
> concise and punchy. I'd certainly like to help with that.

Please review the text already hiding out in svn here:

http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk

[snip]

>> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
>> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with
>> a proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in
>> the grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so
>> we can
>> include it.
>
> I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely
> good. Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis.

I agree quality control is important, and I agree on no wikis (we can
look at integrating zopewiki.org and so on later, but it shouldn't be
primary)

> This would need review and control, not the potential to grow into
> another zope.org. Existing documents would probably need to be
> reformatted for style and layout, and we'd have to think carefully
> about providing a good picture.

Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:

* find the document you think would be good to have

* propose it on this list

* if it gets the +1s, go ahead and contact the document author for
permission to include it as part of a new zope(3).org and whether we can
download and edit it. The list discussion can also result in a good
place in the overall structure that we're developing that the document
can be put into.

* If we get this permission, reformat (if necessary) this document into
restructured text and check it into our SVN. We need to have a credits
file we need to update, and also a pattern in restructured text for
marking the original author and editor of this document.

> I actually quite like the Django tutorial
> (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's
> easy to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how
> it works by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.
>
> As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
> through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
> wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
> mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message,
> but in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful
> and great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once.
> People who want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to
> discover all that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to
> take that plunge.

I agree completely with this. Less well structured information is
beneficial to large amounts of confusing information.

That said, I think having a section with links outside the site would
still be useful, and I think it can be structured ("related material
elsewhere" sections) in a way so that it doesn't disturb the main
pattern of information. This is not of the primary importance though.

>> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
>> looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?
>
> We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)

There are no coders here, we're just all copy editors and such. :)

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Mark Pratt wrote:
[snip]
>> If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great, clutting
>> the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have some really
>> great zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted quite a bit)
>> is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get there too, but
>> let's not bite off more than we can chew the first iteration. The
>> *worst* thing we can do is launch a new site that has all the old
>> sites' problems. :)
>
>
> As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3 right
> away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x server out their
> still receive some kind of documentation support.
>
> So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date -- this
> should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x docs and
> then focus on all things Zope 3.
>
> Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.

I've tried to write the 'brochure' content of the new zope.org to
include both Zope 2 and Zope 3 in a coherent story. I think this can be
done - review the text already there. My idea is to deliver the message
that Zope is great. It comes in two flavors and they're both great.

Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about presenting
up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get people to edit
the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all for it. I have my
doubts that we'll get enough community interest in doing so however, but
I'd love to be wrong about that.

The resulting website will depend on whether we get people do the
editing necessary.

Regards,

Martijn
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Martin Aspeli wrote:
>
>> Hi Martijn,
>>
>>> * are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as
>>> well? I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the
>>> breadwinner of most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more
>>> easily for Zope 3 however; nobody is going to write Zope 2
>>> tutorials. What do we do?
>>


I will not touch zope.org, but I would be willing to do some serious
work on a new zope3.org site.

There is so much content on Zope org, and I actually think that it
presents Zope 2 reasonably well. So changing it will not be worth the
effort. The broken links and lost content will probably be a net loss.

Presenting Zope 3 on a new site on the other hand would give a lot of
bang for the buck.


>>> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
>>> looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?
>>

Though my own site doesn't really reflect it ;-) I am actually capable
of doing pretty solid layouts, and I would be willing to do a prototype.
I have +10 years experience in advertising. I could host the prototype
for development on zope3.mxm.dk until it gets aproval.


I am also doing screencasts on a regular basis for customers, and have a
solid setup for that. Like pro audio gear etc. I would be willing to do
those presentations. Btw. "Macromedia Captivate" is a great tool for the
job.


One obvious question though. Shouldn't this be a "dogfood" project. It
would have some sense to let the site be hosted in Zope Cubed itself.

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science

_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Mark Pratt wrote:
> [snip]
>>> If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great,
>>> clutting the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we
>>> have some really great zope 2 documentation, but what's there
>>> has rotted quite a bit) is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and
>>> should) get there too, but let's not bite off more than we can
>>> chew the first iteration. The *worst* thing we can do is launch
>>> a new site that has all the old sites' problems. :)
>> As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3
>> right away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x
>> server out their still receive some kind of documentation support.
>> So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date --
>> this should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x
>> docs and then focus on all things Zope 3.
>> Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.
>
> I've tried to write the 'brochure' content of the new zope.org to
> include both Zope 2 and Zope 3 in a coherent story. I think this
> can be done - review the text already there. My idea is to deliver
> the message that Zope is great. It comes in two flavors and they're
> both great.
>
> Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about
> presenting up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get
> people to edit the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all
> for it. I have my doubts that we'll get enough community interest
> in doing so however, but I'd love to be wrong about that.
>
> The resulting website will depend on whether we get people do the
> editing necessary.

In my experience quality editing (because its tedious) is not
something that community work excels at.
Is this something that we should try to collect money for? (To then
pay an experienced editor to go through the text).

Cheers,

Mark
_______________________________________________
Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: zope web status report 2006-02-06 [ In reply to ]
Tonico Strasser wrote:
> IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity,
> is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and the
> whole TTW content management system.
>
> I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This would
> also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)

Although you loose the place that many people use to store their
products for distribution :-/

Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is
worth it...

Chris

--
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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