Mailing List Archive

Um, What's wrong with the ability to reply-all?
I like to see who messages are from personally - masking that with zope-web
as the sender always is an annoyance IMNSHO.

Andrew

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: zope-web-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-web-bounces@zope.org] On
> Behalf Of Jens Vagelpohl
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:07 AM
> To: zope-web@zope.org
> Subject: [ZWeb] Reply-To mailing lists policy
>
> I know there were discussions about this before, but can someone remind
> me again why the mailing lists are no set up to reply to the list by
> default? At this point it has become a major annoyance, at least to me.
> I do make sure to paste the list address into the To: field, but others
> don't and that's annoying.
>
> What's the consensus?
>
> jens
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web

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On Feb 2, 2005, at 18:10, Andrew Sawyers wrote:

> Um, What's wrong with the ability to reply-all?
> I like to see who messages are from personally - masking that with
> zope-web
> as the sender always is an annoyance IMNSHO.

"Reply All" puts the original author in the "To:" line and the list as
"CC". So everyone who doesn't want to unnecessary send duplicate email
to the author has to cut and paste the list address into the To: field
and remove the author address.

jens

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I actually do like the "reply to sender, cc to list" as-is now, if only
because when I respond to a list message, and people respond to that,
their responses can show up in my Inbox rather than in my zope list
folder. It's easier for me to keep track of what's "important" that
way, although I think it's exactly what you're complaining about.
Remember, though: you do have a killfile. ;-)

- C


On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 15:11, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2005, at 18:10, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
>
> > Um, What's wrong with the ability to reply-all?
> > I like to see who messages are from personally - masking that with
> > zope-web
> > as the sender always is an annoyance IMNSHO.
>
> "Reply All" puts the original author in the "To:" line and the list as
> "CC". So everyone who doesn't want to unnecessary send duplicate email
> to the author has to cut and paste the list address into the To: field
> and remove the author address.
>
> jens
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
>

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On Feb 2, 2005, at 21:53, Chris McDonough wrote:
> I actually do like the "reply to sender, cc to list" as-is now, if only
> because when I respond to a list message, and people respond to that,
> their responses can show up in my Inbox rather than in my zope list
> folder. It's easier for me to keep track of what's "important" that
> way, although I think it's exactly what you're complaining about.
> Remember, though: you do have a killfile. ;-)

It is the same, but in an inverse way: List mail is never really
important and gets sorted into folders. I don't want it directly in my
Inbox, which is for important stuff.

But that's not the point. The point is that IMHO good etiquette means
you don't CC list mail to a person if that person is already on the
list. I have to go through hoops to get there. Good etiquette also
means you keep list mail on the list itself, which won't happen if you
simply hit "Reply".

*ALL* other lists I am on (and there are tons) handle it the other way,
where Reply To is always the list itself.

jens

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On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 16:00, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2005, at 21:53, Chris McDonough wrote:
> > I actually do like the "reply to sender, cc to list" as-is now, if only
> > because when I respond to a list message, and people respond to that,
> > their responses can show up in my Inbox rather than in my zope list
> > folder. It's easier for me to keep track of what's "important" that
> > way, although I think it's exactly what you're complaining about.
> > Remember, though: you do have a killfile. ;-)
>
> It is the same, but in an inverse way: List mail is never really
> important and gets sorted into folders. I don't want it directly in my
> Inbox, which is for important stuff.

I think if anyone sends me a mail directly, they probably consider it
pretty important, whether it's part of a list discussion or not. But
whether I consider it important enough is a different story. ;-) But
regardless I use spam filters and a killfile to deal with that.

> But that's not the point. The point is that IMHO good etiquette means
> you don't CC list mail to a person if that person is already on the
> list.

Hmmm. I think I just broke that etiquette rule with this response. But
this is the way I've been responding to all Zope list posts for the last
five-six years and I've not had anyone yell at me yet or even complain,
until now. I wouldn't be upset if you responded to me as part of the
sender list in a reply-all (I'd actually prefer it...)

> I have to go through hoops to get there. Good etiquette also
> means you keep list mail on the list itself, which won't happen if you
> simply hit "Reply".
>
> *ALL* other lists I am on (and there are tons) handle it the other way,
> where Reply To is always the list itself.

I'm subscribed to a number of them too, but at least for the ones I'm on
it's a mixed bag. The python lists, the plone lists, the gnucash lists,
do it the reply-to-sender way. The fedora and ubuntu lists do it the
reply-to-list way. If "others do it that way" is the imperative
argument, I don't think it's a slam dunk.

In short, shrug. ;-)

- C


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Chris McDonough wrote:
>>But that's not the point. The point is that IMHO good etiquette means
>>you don't CC list mail to a person if that person is already on the
>>list.

I've honestly never seen this written down and you are the first person
I've ever noticed complaining about it :-S

> Hmmm. I think I just broke that etiquette rule with this response. But
> this is the way I've been responding to all Zope list posts for the last
> five-six years and I've not had anyone yell at me yet or even complain,
> until now. I wouldn't be upset if you responded to me as part of the
> sender list in a reply-all (I'd actually prefer it...)

Ditto.

> do it the reply-to-sender way. The fedora and ubuntu lists do it the
> reply-to-list way.

...as do the yahoo groups mailings, and, again, in all honesty, I've
found them more annoying because I associate hitting "Reply" with when I
want to mail the poster only, and there's no easy way to do that when
replying to yahoo groups mail...

In short, I concur with Chris's shrug... maybe it's a name thing...

cheers,

Chris

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I promise this is the last time I'll ever reply in one of
these threads (fingers crossed)...

On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 10:00:26PM +0100, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2005, at 21:53, Chris McDonough wrote:
> >I actually do like the "reply to sender, cc to list" as-is now, if only
> >because when I respond to a list message, and people respond to that,
> >their responses can show up in my Inbox rather than in my zope list
> >folder. It's easier for me to keep track of what's "important" that
> >way, although I think it's exactly what you're complaining about.
> >Remember, though: you do have a killfile. ;-)
>
> It is the same, but in an inverse way: List mail is never really
> important and gets sorted into folders. I don't want it directly in my
> Inbox, which is for important stuff.

This procmail rule works for me, taken directly from
man procmailex:

# Weed out duplicate posts (e.g. to list AND to me)
:0 Wh: msgid.lock
| formail -D 8192 .msgid.cache

... but note that it also means that if people cross-post, the
message only shows up in one folder.

I also have rules like this one, that puts messages
to zope-web in its own folder:

:0:
* ^TO.*zope-web.*
zope-web


Personally I don't like sending mail to both the list
and the recipient, because I don't like *getting* duplicates
so why would I send them? So I also have entries like this
in my .muttrc for the email client that Sucks Less (TM):

lists zope@zope.org
lists zope-cmf@zope.org
...

Then when I reply, I hit "l" and the reply goes to the
list address only.

> *ALL* other lists I am on (and there are tons) handle it the other way,
> where Reply To is always the list itself.

I share your preference, but this argument periodically comes
up and NEVER goes anywhere. There's no point to doing it again.

FWIW, I just did a quick look at the lists I'm on:

mangle Reply-To: 3
don't mangle Reply-To: 20

... so I'm a bit surprised that your list sample is so
different from mine.

... and yes, I have occasionally seen arguments on the lists that
set Reply-To that it should be taken away. Some people just don't
agree with us! I have had to accept that their preference
is valid, just as mine is.

FWIW, IIRC I have *never* seen a list change policy either way,
as a result of one of these discussions.

excessive-acronymizing'ly yrs,

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Paul Winkler
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