Mailing List Archive

Am Mittwoch, 4. März 2015, 11:30:30 schrieb Sebastian Tänzer:

> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual
> comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated",
> "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
This is "stuff" typically spreaden by guys who don't know what Zope really is
nor was and has (from my view) two reasons:

1.) The Zope project byself made very bad decisions within their communication
strategy in the past - i.e. announcing a "Zope3" (for which many was waiting
for) which did never come out and shoulnt be backward compatible to Zope2.

2.) Several PHP projects (like Typo3 and WP) are miscalled as "CMS" widely and
(in the case of Typo3) from the maintainers byself. PHP is available on many
low cost hosting packages available on the market (even if they are often to
small for a Typo3 site with some more load then a few visitors by day on a few
subpages. So in the view of many web agents and even "developers" anything
apart from PHP is'nt existing or is something "excotically" and/or for
enterprise level.

We had often to deal with any kind of PHP problems in the past where customers
decided to use any PHP "crap" for their business applications. Running PHP on
a pro level is not "easier" then managing Zope installations.


3.) Zope documentation was partly very bad - at least when it comes to
installation and system administration, updating etc.pp.

ZMS had some similiar "problems" which held it back from a very wide presence
- i.e. the long time not public available documentation and the hardly
specialized focus onto medicine in the communication.



just my two cents,


Niels.


--
---
Niels Dettenbach
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---

That's a good question:

I'm not a Zope developer but I've been hosting several Plone sites
(including my own) for about 5 years now; and I am *extremely* happy
with the stability and security Zope+Plone offers.

Despite a couple of attempts by me, I never could start developing with
Zope. For me, as I have a solid Java background, the complexity was, as
you can clearly see why, not a problem :-)

The main stopper for me was that there were hardly any documents out
there! They were mostly either old or incomplete or didn't exist at all.

PS: Please correct if things have changed...the last time I tried Zope
development was more than 2 years ago.

--
Bahman Movaqar

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On 03/04/2015 02:00 PM, Sebastian Tänzer wrote:
> Hello ZOPE community,
>
> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
>
> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>
> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
>
> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
>
> Best
> Sebastian
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
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> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>

Hi,

I'm currently maintaining applications using Zope2, Zope3/Bluebream and Pyramid applications (using ZODB).
I don't have any problem on any of them, even on the oldest Zope2 applications which are more than 10 years old but always need zero maintenance and are as stable as mountains.

But I have to say that Zope2 looks quite old now, and TTW development for example have (from my own point of view) many drawbacks.
So for my own needs I wouldn't start a new project using Zope2 but would use Pyramid + ZODB which is a really good stack; Pyramid is well documented and really pleasant to use, and you can reuse many principles that were introduced by Zope, but the framework was cleaned and reduced to the really usefull parts (while many optional ones are available as add-ons packages).

Regards,
Thierry

________________________________________
De : Zope <zope-bounces@zope.org> de la part de Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me>
Envoyé : mercredi 4 mars 2015 11:30
À : zope@zope.org
Objet : [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra

Hello ZOPE community,

we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.

A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.

My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.

I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?

Best
Sebastian
_______________________________________________
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Hello Sebastian,

I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope.
For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to
move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem.

Eric

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me> wrote:

> Hello ZOPE community,
>
> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com)
> for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say,
> Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the
> years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
>
> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual
> comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated",
> "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>
> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job
> done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big
> competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django
> for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
>
> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no
> reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but
> nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal
> favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for
> new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that
> much better compared to Zope?
>
> Best
> Sebastian
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>

Am Mittwoch, 4. März 2015, 13:42:13 schrieb Eric Bréhault:
> For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to
> move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem.
This is just another such story which leads to non-interest of Users into Zope
and let me compare to Perl5, where many peoples was looking forward to Perl6
which was targeted to publish somewhere 15 years ago and perl5 is still
available and maintained today.

Where a demand is - there is a solution and Zope2 / 4 is not the only larger
project still demand on python 2 and btw: afaik at least a part of the
components / modules "used" in (or "provided by") the "Zope" project today are
still ported / running under python3.


just my two cents,


Niels.


--
---
Niels Dettenbach
Syndicat IT & Internet
http://www.syndicat.com
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---

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Eric Bréhault wrote:
> Hello Sebastian,
>
> I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope. For
> instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed
> to move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a
> problem.

The Zope development is almost dead and there only a few people
keeping it alive in terms of security maintenance etc. It would be
unhonest to compare Zope technology with a zombie but Zope was great
technology, mistakes had been made and all technology turns at some
point into legacy mode. Some part of the ZCA are still great and while
other parts of the ZCA should be considered as an architectural software
fail. The ZODB is still great and must not hide behind
so-called "NOSQL" technology - the ZODB as NOSQL ten years ago and it
still superb in some way.

Personally I don't see Zope on Python 3 happen at any time soon, I don't
see Plone X running on Python 3 at any time soon..it's all legacy and
we have to live with that. For new projects it is time to move on and
learn from the good and parts of the Zope world in order to create
something better.

Cheers
- -aj
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Zope2 is not dead, it is mature product. I use it, I love it.

Comunity is real small just now, because all what are discoverable, is
discovered.

Zope 2 download site is practically dead for many years, so more than 90% of
products are not avaiable. This is the biggest problem because these
products was very valuable, but now are in the limbus.

There are no new products for Zope2 because comunity was ran to Zope3, which
is impractical.

The first big mistake is giving too much propagation to the ZPT/TAL
technology which is absolutelly not good for the zope masses. The second big
mistake is run out to the Zope3, which is totally different in the idea and
many peoples are gone away to the Java, PHP etc.

Regards, JL.

----- Puvodní zpráva -----
Od: "Sebastian Tänzer" <st@taenzer.me>

> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3
> (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real
> problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had
> serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy
> with ZMS.
>
> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual
> comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated",
> "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>
> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job
> done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big
> competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django
> for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
>
> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no
> reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but
> nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal
> favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for
> new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that
> much better compared to Zope?
>

_______________________________________________
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

If it is not dead then call it a zombie...you know what I mean :)

- -aj

Jaroslav Lukesh wrote:
> Zope2 is not dead, it is mature product. I use it, I love it.
>
> Comunity is real small just now, because all what are discoverable,
> is discovered.
>
> Zope 2 download site is practically dead for many years, so more
> than 90% of products are not avaiable. This is the biggest problem
> because these products was very valuable, but now are in the limbus.
>
> There are no new products for Zope2 because comunity was ran to
> Zope3, which is impractical.
>
> The first big mistake is giving too much propagation to the ZPT/TAL
> technology which is absolutelly not good for the zope masses. The
> second big mistake is run out to the Zope3, which is totally
> different in the idea and many peoples are gone away to the Java, PHP
> etc.
>
> Regards, JL.
>
> ----- Puvodní zpráva ----- Od: "Sebastian Tänzer" <st@taenzer.me>
>
>> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3
>> (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real
>> problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc.
>> which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients
>> are quite happy with ZMS.
>>
>> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the
>> usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too
>> complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>>
>> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets
>> the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to
>> the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into
>> Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to
>> Zope2 itself.
>>
>> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was
>> no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it"
>> etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons
>> (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not
>> to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like
>> flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
>>
>
> _______________________________________________ Zope maillist -
> Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No
> cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )


- --
Regards
Andreas Jung
andreas@andreas-jung.com
about.me/andreasjung
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I do share some of the point of views, especially in regards to bad marketing about Zopes future versions and lack of documentation. I don't share the criticism on ZPT/TAL - actually I love Page Templates and the approach to templating it brought to the web world. Chameleon is one of my favourite templating engines around.

Descriping Zope as mature is what I think fits best at the moment. Personally, I don't think Zope2 and a limited set of quite good Products is anywhere near dying - it's just not widely spread in the media but still I happen to come across many projects that work with the ZMS CMS for example where you don't expect it.

My practical experience at least for the last 2-3 years was extremely positive about Zope2. We did not have any project where Zope2 was not able to do what was needed and do it well, too. Even some external coders were surprised about the flexiblity and extensibility.

I'm not saying Zope2 and especially ZMS (which is our primary CMS products beeing used) fits every project, but we never ran into any trouble and weren't able to do the job. I did do some jobs with Pyramid and the development time and performance was (at least with our limited projects) about the same.

Btw, we never really used neither the ZMI nor the TTWE functions really (close to never at all). For the last years we're working with our own Cocoa+python based MacOS app that uses WebDAV + FTP for local syncing and things like compass/sass integration. This is insanely fast despite the protocols (and thanks to local development setups and SSDs nowadays) and made us almost forget we're working inside the ZODB and not the local file system in the end. Using sockets we also sync down remote changes inside ZOPE locally almost instantly. It's a little bit like a FTP client on steriods ;-)

Thank you all for your opinions and the open discussion. It's nice to hear about other people still using it in production despite its reputation ;-)

Best
Sebastian





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I just ran into that a few days ago looking for documentation about the PUT_factory which has not been copied from the original documenation to the new one at http://docs.zope.org/zope2/. But: It still existed and took about 15 seconds to google it.

Who's maintaining docs.zope.org/zope2 at the moment? I'd love to add partly missing stuff and complete stuff missing at all. Unfortunately these docs don't have a CMS behind. I already thought about porting them to a ZMS based site so editing and extending would be easier.

> Am 04.03.2015 um 12:35 schrieb Niels Dettenbach <nd@syndicat.com>:
>
> 3.) Zope documentation was partly very bad - at least when it comes to
> installation and system administration, updating etc.pp.

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I use Zope since around 2001 and I still have some Zope 2 web applications running and they are just rock-solid and easy to update.
I have never been convinced by Zope 3 and I have never seen any advantages for using the Zope 3 techniques.

The Zope 2 core developers (I think Andreas has worked for Zope Corporation) created a mature product - and I still love it for its flexibility and the speed of development once you understood the core concepts.  
However, web development has been changed in the past 10 years.  But for future projects I look for new python based products.

PS: Sorry, my former message can be deleted,I forgot to change the subject.

Nice discussion!

I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on
the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference
information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope
Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more
recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about
it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only
mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it
sooner, just let me know.

Best
-Simon

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Hi Simon

I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.

Regards
Bernard

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:

> Nice discussion!
>
> I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on
> the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference
> information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope
> Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more
> recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about
> it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only
> mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it
> sooner, just let me know.
>
> Best
> -Simon
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>

Hi Bernard,

great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days.

-Simon

On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
> Hi Simon
>
> I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
>
> Regards
> Bernard
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
>
>> Nice discussion!
>>
>> I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on
>> the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference
>> information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope
>> Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more
>> recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about
>> it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only
>> mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it
>> sooner, just let me know.
>>
>> Best
>> -Simon
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
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>> (Related lists -
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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I've sent you a download link.

I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and
wrote Zwiki), so please call on me for help as you need, on the mail
list or directly. I’m sm in the #zope IRC channel. Thanks for working on it.

-Simon

On 3/7/15 7:17 AM, Simon Michael wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days.
>
> -Simon
>
> On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
>> Hi Simon
>>
>> I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
>>
>> Regards
>> Bernard
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nice discussion!
>>>
>>> I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on
>>> the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference
>>> information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope
>>> Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more
>>> recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about
>>> it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only
>>> mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it
>>> sooner, just let me know.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> -Simon


_______________________________________________
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Hello

When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's the
2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or even
without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead because
there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope package
itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web development
changed in the last couple of years and there are other options around.
I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a future Zope needs

- A MAINTAINER!!!
- MARKETING!
- DOCUMENTATION!
- Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
- Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)

The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a pledgie
the others are possibly harder to solve.

My 2 cents
Tom


On 07.03.15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
> I've sent you a download link.
>
> I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and
> wrote Zwiki), so please call on me for help as you need, on the mail
> list or directly. I’m sm in the #zope IRC channel. Thanks for working on it.
>
> -Simon
>
> On 3/7/15 7:17 AM, Simon Michael wrote:
>> Hi Bernard,
>>
>> great! You'll hear more from me in the next couple of days.
>>
>> -Simon
>>
>> On 3/7/15 2:49 AM, Bernard Devlin wrote:
>>> Hi Simon
>>>
>>> I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Bernard
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice discussion!
>>>>
>>>> I don't know about docs.zope.org, but I'll just add a status update on
>>>> the zope wikis, which held quite a lot of historical and reference
>>>> information. They used to be hosted by Zope Corp or maybe Zope
>>>> Foundation, they went dark a few years back and no-one complained, more
>>>> recently Fred Drake sent me a snapshot of their content, I forgot about
>>>> it for a while, now I should probably revive and host them in read-only
>>>> mode, as soon as I find a tuit. If anyone else would like to work on it
>>>> sooner, just let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> -Simon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>


--
Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C

Tom Gross
email..........itconsense@gmail.com
skype.....................tom_gross
web.........http://toms-projekte.de
blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de

_______________________________________________
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
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https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tom Gross wrote:
> Hello
>
> When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's
> the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or
> even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead
> because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope
> package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web
> development changed in the last couple of years and there are other
> options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a
> future Zope needs
>
> - A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!

Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
> - DOCUMENTATION!

Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.

> - Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)

Waste of time...

> - Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)

Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more
pointless Zope will become.

>
> The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a
> pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.

Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie.

Andreas
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> I'd like to work on hosting the wiki information.

As I and my colleague just inherited a rather large Zope2 project, I'd
really like to see - at least - the Zope 2 documentation to be kept up
to date.

Regards,
Jürgen
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On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:56 AM, Sebastian Tänzer <st@taenzer.me> wrote:
> Chameleon is one of my favourite templating engines around.

I like TAL and Chameleon's subtle improvements on it. I was recently
attending a Python users group meeting presentation on Pyramid. The
presenter, who strongly liked jinja2, disparaged ZPT/Chameleon with
(what I sensed was) an "anti-Zopism" straw-man.

Some folks in other Python dev communities tend to have unfortunate
strong opinions about Zope, still. Some folks tend to think that
technology choice is a cultural revolution of some kind where the
incumbent must be strung up in a public square, which is off-putting
to pragmatists. And IMHO, other communities are better off learning
from Zope's hits and misses (past and present) than exhuming Oliver
Cromwell for symbolic torture.

I'm not sure that jinja2 and similar are really better for readability
or separation of concerns versus TAL, and if some folks don't like TAL
for DOM/XML/HTML-ish output, I'm left scratching my head why push
templating like meld3 hasn't really taken off.

My sense is that ZPT will continue to have its niche outside of Zope,
but mostly confined to developers working in Pyramid development.

Sean
_______________________________________________
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Again, I'm not sure if it is worth the thing but when I talk about
marketing I don't mean just having a website. Everyone has one these
days. Why should anyone visit especially the Zope website?
I mean going to the people and talk to them, blog, tweet, whatever ...
In the medieval times they knew better. The king went to the market to
promote important things and not in his castle ...
The success story of Zope did not start because it was a good product
but it was mentioned in New York Times and people demanded it.
Sales seems to be a taboo word in most OpenSource communities but I
think it is essential to keep software alive.

-Tom

On 09.03.15 07:11, Andreas Jung wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tom Gross wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's
>> the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or
>> even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead
>> because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope
>> package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web
>> development changed in the last couple of years and there are other
>> options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a
>> future Zope needs
>>
>> - A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!
>
> Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
>> - DOCUMENTATION!
>
> Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.
>
>> - Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
>
> Waste of time...
>
>> - Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)
>
> Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more
> pointless Zope will become.
>
>>
>> The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a
>> pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.
>
> Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie.
>
> Andreas
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> =mH4E
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>


--
Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C

Tom Gross
email..........itconsense@gmail.com
skype.....................tom_gross
web.........http://toms-projekte.de
blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de

_______________________________________________
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
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When I started with Zope I loved its Zope Book. It was a super simple amd
well documented book with a lot of examples.

Zope3 and all that came later does not have it in my opinion.

I saw right now jinja2 and doesn't like. insert code between html code in
that way remember me dtml. it was good in its time but ot any more.

In resume:
ZPT and zope2 are excellent tools for who knows use it.
The zope 2 book was a great help. The help in Pascal and visual basic 6
were also good help with many and not-just-see-how-call-the-command
examples to learn the language.

my 2 cents.

2015-03-10 12:03 GMT-06:00 Tom Gross <itconsense@gmail.com>:

> Again, I'm not sure if it is worth the thing but when I talk about
> marketing I don't mean just having a website. Everyone has one these days.
> Why should anyone visit especially the Zope website?
> I mean going to the people and talk to them, blog, tweet, whatever ...
> In the medieval times they knew better. The king went to the market to
> promote important things and not in his castle ...
> The success story of Zope did not start because it was a good product but
> it was mentioned in New York Times and people demanded it.
> Sales seems to be a taboo word in most OpenSource communities but I think
> it is essential to keep software alive.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> On 09.03.15 07:11, Andreas Jung wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Tom Gross wrote:
>>
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> When it comes to Zope people seem to have 2 opinions. (Maybe that's
>>> the 2 in the name ;-) ). A lot of people seem to use it (with or
>>> even without Plone) and loving it and a lot of people call it dead
>>> because there is (almost) no new development. At least on the Zope
>>> package itself. I myself like to work with Zope too but I know web
>>> development changed in the last couple of years and there are other
>>> options around. I don't know if it is worth the thing but to have a
>>> future Zope needs
>>>
>>> - A MAINTAINER!!! - MARKETING!
>>>
>>
>> Oh, we great a not that bad Zope 2 site once in the past. Outcome? Zero.
>>
>>> - DOCUMENTATION!
>>>
>>
>> Oh, we created a not so bad docs.zope.org site. Outcome? Zero.
>>
>> - Usability improvements (frameless, responsive ZMI)
>>>
>>
>> Waste of time...
>>
>> - Technical improvements (Port to Python3, WSGI, ...)
>>>
>>
>> Reasonable but too hard to achieve and it longer it takes the more
>> pointless Zope will become.
>>
>>
>>> The technical improvements could be organized/financed with a
>>> pledgie the others are possibly harder to solve.
>>>
>>
>> Beat me for my realistic sarcasm but Zope is a zombie.
>>
>> Andreas
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>>
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>> 5Q2LErAI9HIzPQ9SV//83+E2pa1b8GA=
>> =mH4E
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> _______________________________________________
>> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
>> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
>> (Related lists -
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>>
>>
>
> --
> Author of the book "Plone 3 Multimedia" - http://amzn.to/dtrp0C
>
> Tom Gross
> email..........itconsense@gmail.com
> skype.....................tom_gross
> web.........http://toms-projekte.de
> blog...http://blog.toms-projekte.de
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>



--
________________________________________
Lo bueno de vivir un dia mas
es saber que nos queda un dia menos de vida

On 07/03/15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
> I've sent you a download link.
>
> I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and
> wrote Zwiki)

ZWIKI... God...

Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I
have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10
just to host ZWIKI :(.

About current topic: I am not a web developer. I host my (heavy)
personal ZOPE webserver and a handful of WSGI handcoded services. But my
Zope webserver is working well and I am happy with it. Every now and
then I have to write new logic and I must decide to "invest" into Zope o
just bite the bullet and jump to Django, Piramid, whatever.

I am keeping Zope because I am using it since 1998 and I know it
inside-out. I can do whatever I want with it and the HUGE learning curve
is already amortized. I just consider other choices because I feel that
Zope 2 is a dead-end, not because I am unhappy with it. But Zope wins
every time so far :)

That said, documentation is really painful. It is very fragmented and it
is not easy to separate "outdated" from "current". Messy. Since current
codebase seems to change really slowly (mature!) I would love to see a
documentation effort. Not holding my breath :-(. Most of the time, when
implementing something new, I don't have any other choice than dive into
the Zope sourcecode. Doable but time-wasting.

--
Jesús Cea Avión _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/
jcea@jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/
Twitter: @jcea _/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
jabber / xmpp:jcea@jabber.org _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/
"Things are not so easy" _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/
"My name is Dump, Core Dump" _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/
"El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz

I just had to port an Intranet to modern hardware/Linux that has been created
in 1996 using plain zope and has been "programmatically" untouched since 2001.
The Intranet is rather complex and provides a kind of ERP on very technical data.
The application consist of some 1000 little dtml scripts and is totaly
unmaintainable.
But it runs and runs and runs and is heavily used..

Unhindered by the fact that the inner working of the Intranet is unfathomable
the transition to an up to date virtualized linux, actual postgres and such
went rather easily.

Zope might be a zombie, but it is a great and sturdy one ..

hats of to its creators..

robert


On 17.03.2015 02:37, Jesus Cea wrote:
> On 07/03/15 16:30, Simon Michael wrote:
>> I've sent you a download link.
>>
>> I’m somewhat familiar with it, as I managed at least the zope2 wiki (and
>> wrote Zwiki)
> ZWIKI... God...
>
> Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I
> have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10
> just to host ZWIKI :(.
>
> About current topic: I am not a web developer. I host my (heavy)
> personal ZOPE webserver and a handful of WSGI handcoded services. But my
> Zope webserver is working well and I am happy with it. Every now and
> then I have to write new logic and I must decide to "invest" into Zope o
> just bite the bullet and jump to Django, Piramid, whatever.
>
> I am keeping Zope because I am using it since 1998 and I know it
> inside-out. I can do whatever I want with it and the HUGE learning curve
> is already amortized. I just consider other choices because I feel that
> Zope 2 is a dead-end, not because I am unhappy with it. But Zope wins
> every time so far :)
>
> That said, documentation is really painful. It is very fragmented and it
> is not easy to separate "outdated" from "current". Messy. Since current
> codebase seems to change really slowly (mature!) I would love to see a
> documentation effort. Not holding my breath :-(. Most of the time, when
> implementing something new, I don't have any other choice than dive into
> the Zope sourcecode. Doable but time-wasting.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
> (Related lists -
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

On 3/16/15 6:37 PM, Jesus Cea wrote:
> ZWIKI... God...
>
> Is there any possibility of upgrading it to support current Zope2?. I
> have currently two zope instances: a current zope and an aging Zope 2.10
> just to host ZWIKI :(.

Hi Jesus,

as far as I know it works out of the box with Zope 2.13, at least 2.13.5.

What and where is current Zope2 ?

Feel free to open an issue (or pull request). The old issue tracker was
read-only so I've activated a new one at github (see
https://github.com/simonmichael/ZWiki/issues/2).

Best
-Simon


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