Mailing List Archive

At 16:22 Uhr -0500 16.02.2000, Paul Everitt wrote:
>The PTK project now has a Tracker setup for report:
>
> http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker
>
>You can continue reporting issues on this mailing list, but note that
>we'll probably work through issues in the Tracker before issues on the
>mailing list. Thus, there is an incentive to putting things in the
>Tracker.

Whoa... this looks really good and useful! I'd suggest the light
green does not really fit in to the overall blue of Zope.org, though
;-)

Jochen

Paul Everitt wrote:
>
> The PTK project now has a Tracker setup for report:
>
> http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker


This looks _really_ sweet.
Any chance at getting the code? ;)
--
In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are
usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks.
-- Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900

Bill Anderson wrote:
>
> Paul Everitt wrote:
> >
> > The PTK project now has a Tracker setup for report:
> >
> > http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker
>
> This looks _really_ sweet.
> Any chance at getting the code? ;)

It is pretty damn suite. The next step for us to use it a little more
widely and make sure we get the kinks out of it. The next step after
that might be to make it something you can add to a folder on Zope.org.
After that we might make it widely available.

The problem for us, obviously, is time. It costs a lot to give things
away for free. :^( Moreover, the Zope community would probably kill us
if we kept throwing over new software without documenting the old.

--Paul

> > > The PTK project now has a Tracker setup for report:
> > >
> > > http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker
> >
> > This looks _really_ sweet.
> > Any chance at getting the code? ;)
>
> It is pretty damn suite. The next step for us to use it a little more
> widely and make sure we get the kinks out of it.

I guess the first fix should be the KeyError at
http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker/2 ;-)

But it looks really besides that!

/Magnus Heino

I have to say I beg to differ. Part of the open source model is to
release early and often. I personally don't care if early releases are
incomplete or buggy, I just want to see if there is something there which
interests me enough do something about helping to make it work in my mostly
non-existent spare time.

As for documentation, python tends to be self-documenting. One could argue
that Zope is an exception to this rule, but then one would have to be
somewhat lazy to do so.

There has been plenty if interest expressed in getting access to the
various iterations of DC's problem tracking code. How is the Zope
community going to scratch that itch unless you make the code accessible ?

I'll bet you cash money the tracker will be ready for general use quicker
if you just throw it out and see what happens.

At 09:51 PM 02/16/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Bill Anderson wrote:
> >
> > Paul Everitt wrote:
> > >
> > > The PTK project now has a Tracker setup for report:
> > >
> > > http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker
> >
> > This looks _really_ sweet.
> > Any chance at getting the code? ;)
>
>It is pretty damn suite. The next step for us to use it a little more
>widely and make sure we get the kinks out of it. The next step after
>that might be to make it something you can add to a folder on Zope.org.
>After that we might make it widely available.
>
>The problem for us, obviously, is time. It costs a lot to give things
>away for free. :^( Moreover, the Zope community would probably kill us
>if we kept throwing over new software without documenting the old.
>
>--Paul
>
>_______________________________________________
>Zope-PTK maillist - Zope-PTK@zope.org
>http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-ptk

At 11:47 pm -0800 17/2/00, Brian Lenihan wrote:
>I have to say I beg to differ. Part of the open source model is to
>release early and often. I personally don't care if early releases
>are incomplete or buggy, I just want to see if there is something
>there which interests me enough do something about helping to make
>it work in my mostly non-existent spare time.


>I'll bet you cash money the tracker will be ready for general use
>quicker if you just throw it out and see what happens.

I can say I see both sides of the argument here. I think Brian is
right in that things will happen quicker if the issue tracker were
released (in whatever form).

However, I remember the stick the DC guys got when they released
chunks of the Zope system sans documentation. I can well see how they
DC troops would't want *that* kind of exposure again.

Perhaps a compromise is possible in that the issue tracker could be
made available via CVS? That would 'raise the entry fee' to the level
of those people that have experience of cvs and are (almost by
definition) comfortable with working with evolving software. The
problem is that the PTK is so cool that I'm chomping at the bit to
put it into production :) ** slaps wrist **

tone

------
Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project
http://nle.ncl.ac.uk/
The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888
Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2

Brian Lenihan wrote:
> I have to say I beg to differ. Part of the open source model is to
> release early and often. I personally don't care if early releases are
> incomplete or buggy, I just want to see if there is something there which
> interests me enough do something about helping to make it work in my mostly
> non-existent spare time.

That's certainly true from your perspective. But every time we've
thrown something over with no support (e.g. Confera, NotMail) it has
just engendered frustration. And we're resolved to focus our time on
doing better at less, or at least striving to.

I'm not too sure Digital Creations is doing that bad on adhering to Open
Source. I don't think the Open Source Zen involves putting out
something you have no intention of answering bug reports on. Ask people
if they are frustrated that we don't pay enough attention to the
Collector.

> As for documentation, python tends to be self-documenting. One could argue
> that Zope is an exception to this rule, but then one would have to be
> somewhat lazy to do so.

Still, Zope appeals to people that don't read Python code. Even people
like Andrew Kuchling have (IMO, correctly) chimed in that Zope needs
good documentation. Check out Jeff Shelton's "rant" on Zope Newbie News
(available of the Zope.org homepage).

> There has been plenty if interest expressed in getting access to the
> various iterations of DC's problem tracking code. How is the Zope
> community going to scratch that itch unless you make the code accessible ?
>
> I'll bet you cash money the tracker will be ready for general use quicker
> if you just throw it out and see what happens.

But at this point getting it ready for general use isn't a goal. Take a
look at the number of good comments PTK has engendered. We don't have
the resources to receive that kind of input on Tracker. We are hugely,
hugely swamped with consulting work. (Anybody want a job? Can you
bring a friend or twenty to Virginia with you? I'm serious.)

Which certainly brings up the point that one way to make Tracker
something we have to care about is for some customer to pay enough money
to displace the current priorities. If for instance a prominent company
gave us a case study and a big support contract, then we'd be able to
focus and align our goals on this issue.

In the end, we all have our agendas: folks outside Digital Creations
would like a Zope-based issue tracker, and we want to make sure we keep
focus. Soon, those two agendas will align regarding Tracker. Until
then, we have to make sure that we manage expectations.

--Paul

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Tony McDonald wrote:

> ...I'm chomping at the bit to put it into production :) ** slaps wrist
> **

For reasons I shall not go into just now, this is incredibly funny to
me. ;-) Thanks.

--
Mike Pelletier email: mike@digicool.com
Mild mannered software developer icq: 7127228
by day, super villain by night. phone: 519-884-2434