Mailing List Archive: Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes

Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes

Apr 22, 2013, 9:42 AM

Post #1 of 11 (2889 views)

Hi,

seems nobody has any views. How about I make a more concrete proposal. I
also noticed that we have no real global list for voting and proposals
(and to discuss issues like this). I have to include all lists, which
creates spam. As already indicated on the blog, at some point we should
move to @lists.xenproject.org, which will cause some impact on
mailfilters, etc. (similar to when we moved from @lists.xensource.com to
@lists.xen.org about a year ago). So that may be a good opportunity to
deal with some inconsistencies that have grown over time.

It also raises questions about naming conventions for new lists. Should
lists be
- xen-...@lists.xenproject.org, or should they be
- xenproject-...@lists.xenproject.org
And then of course, should any convention be forward looking or should
we rename lists to be consistent and (as we are already changing
@lists.xenproject.org, changing the actual list name may not be any worse).

On new lists, we will need lists for

* xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
marketing (seems to work for debian)
* I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
sub-project and teams. Maybe
xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org or
xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting these
into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?
* We will have a list for the advisory board, which wants to be
totally open and transparent. So this would be
xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org and I will post
minutes, etc. of the last meeting when we created the list.
* xenproject-private, if we actually need it would work too. However
the advisory board recommended in the meeting last week not to have
any private lists at all. So maybe we don't need this.

Also, for example XAPI does not have a separate dev or user list. That
is also one to consider at some point.

Anyway, I am just putting these into the room for discussion.

Lars

On 19/04/2013 04:52, Chip Childers wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 06:52:09PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>> 1) A list for coordinating blog posts, other communication,
>> attending of event, etc. - not sure about the name, so am looking
>> for suggestions. I am not sure whether we should have public
>> archives: comparable lists of other projects don't.
> From an outsider / lurker perspective, xen-marketing@lists.xen.org is a
> good fit.
>
>> 2) A semi-private invite mailing list for ALL project leads,
>> committers and maintainers of ALL projects hosted on xen.org
> Similarly to above: xen-private@lists.xen.org
>
> Both of these list names are used in other projects I'm working with /
> observe.
>

Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

pasik at iki

Apr 22, 2013, 11:45 AM

Post #2 of 11 (2853 views)

Permalink

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 05:42:26PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Hi,
>
> seems nobody has any views. How about I make a more concrete proposal. I
> also noticed that we have no real global list for voting and proposals
> (and to discuss issues like this). I have to include all lists, which
> creates spam. As already indicated on the blog, at some point we should
> move to @lists.xenproject.org, which will cause some impact on
> mailfilters, etc. (similar to when we moved from @lists.xensource.com to
> @lists.xen.org about a year ago). So that may be a good opportunity to
> deal with some inconsistencies that have grown over time.
>
> It also raises questions about naming conventions for new lists. Should
> lists be
> - [1]xen-...@lists.xenproject.org, or should they be
> - [2]xenproject-...@lists.xenproject.org
> And then of course, should any convention be forward looking or should we
> rename lists to be consistent and (as we are already changing
> @lists.xenproject.org, changing the actual list name may not be any
> worse).
>
> On new lists, we will need lists for
>
> * [3]xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
> [4]xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
> marketing (seems to work for debian)
> * I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
> sub-project and teams. Maybe
> [5]xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org or
> [6]xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting these
> into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
> [7]xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?
> * We will have a list for the advisory board, which wants to be totally
> open and transparent. So this would be
> [8]xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org and I will post
> minutes, etc. of the last meeting when we created the list.
> * xenproject-private, if we actually need it would work too. However the
> advisory board recommended in the meeting last week not to have any
> private lists at all. So maybe we don't need this.
>
> Also, for example XAPI does not have a separate dev or user list. That is
> also one to consider at some point.
>

I thought that's what xen-api@lists.xen.org was supposed to be :)

-- Pasi

> Anyway, I am just putting these into the room for discussion.
>
> Lars
>
> On 19/04/2013 04:52, Chip Childers wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 06:52:09PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>
> 1) A list for coordinating blog posts, other communication,
> attending of event, etc. - not sure about the name, so am looking
> for suggestions. I am not sure whether we should have public
> archives: comparable lists of other projects don't.
>
> From an outsider / lurker perspective, [9]xen-marketing@lists.xen.org is a
> good fit.
>
>
> 2) A semi-private invite mailing list for ALL project leads,
> committers and maintainers of ALL projects hosted on xen.org
>
> Similarly to above: [10]xen-private@lists.xen.org
>
> Both of these list names are used in other projects I'm working with /
> observe.
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:xen-...@lists.xenproject.org
> 2. mailto:xenproject-...@lists.xenproject.org
> 3. mailto:xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org
> 4. mailto:xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org
> 5. mailto:xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org
> 6. mailto:xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org
> 7. mailto:xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org
> 8. mailto:xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org
> 9. mailto:xen-marketing@lists.xen.org
> 10. mailto:xen-private@lists.xen.org

> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

Ian.Campbell at citrix

Apr 23, 2013, 12:34 AM

Post #3 of 11 (2842 views)

Permalink

On Mon, 2013-04-22 at 19:45 +0100, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> > Also, for example XAPI does not have a separate dev or user list. That is
> > also one to consider at some point.
> >
>
> I thought that's what xen-api@lists.xen.org was supposed to be :)

Lars meant separate dev and user lists, while xen-api combines the two
(and under a non-obvious name for either use case).

Ian.

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

Ian.Campbell at citrix

Apr 23, 2013, 12:42 AM

Post #4 of 11 (2842 views)

Permalink

On Mon, 2013-04-22 at 17:42 +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> On new lists, we will need lists for
> * xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
> xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
> marketing (seems to work for debian)

For things which are xenproject wide and not related to a specific
subproject I think omitting the prefix is the way to go, so marketing@,
publicity@ etc, the xenproject bit is in the domain and repeating it
makes everything sound clumsy.

> * I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
> sub-project and teams. Maybe
> xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org or
> xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting
> these into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
> xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?

vote@, committers@ and/or maintainers@ ?

Along with <subproject>-{vote,comitters,maintainers}@?

In which case perhaps all-vote@ all-committers@ etc for the global ones?

> * We will have a list for the advisory board, which wants to be
> totally open and transparent. So this would be
> xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org and I will post
> minutes, etc. of the last meeting when we created the list.

I think just advisoryboard@ is sufficient.

> * xenproject-private, if we actually need it would work too.
> However the advisory board recommended in the meeting last
> week not to have any private lists at all. So maybe we don't
> need this.

We could always defer this one until a real need crops up?

Ian.

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Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

lars.kurth.xen at gmail

Apr 23, 2013, 1:10 AM

Post #5 of 11 (2827 views)

Permalink

> I also want to know why we can't create/use a forum: It'll be more
organized, easier to seach,
> more categorized and more user frendly for new comers
I don't think that our developers will want a forum.
However for user questions, we created
http://xenproject.org/help/questions-and-answers.html which are inessence a
forum. You just need to start using it.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:10 PM, samir benkhellat <
benkhellat_samir@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I also want to know why we can't create/use a forum: It'll be more
> organized, easier to seach, more categorized and more user frendly for new
> comers
>
> So what do you think?
>
> Regards
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:42:26 +0100
> From: lars.kurth@xen.org
> To: chip.childers@sungard.com
> CC: xen-arm@lists.xen.org; xen-devel@lists.xen.org; xen-api@lists.xen.org
> Subject: Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific
> purposes
>
>
> Hi,
>
> seems nobody has any views. How about I make a more concrete proposal. I
> also noticed that we have no real global list for voting and proposals (and
> to discuss issues like this). I have to include all lists, which creates
> spam. As already indicated on the blog, at some point we should move to @
> lists.xenproject.org, which will cause some impact on mailfilters, etc.
> (similar to when we moved from @lists.xensource.com to @lists.xen.orgabout a year ago). So that may be a good opportunity to deal with some
> inconsistencies that have grown over time.
>
> It also raises questions about naming conventions for new lists. Should
> lists be
> - xen-...@lists.xenproject.org, or should they be
> - xenproject-...@lists.xenproject.org
> And then of course, should any convention be forward looking or should we
> rename lists to be consistent and (as we are already changing @
> lists.xenproject.org, changing the actual list name may not be any worse).
>
> On new lists, we will need lists for
>
> - xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
> xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
> marketing (seems to work for debian)
> - I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
> sub-project and teams. Maybe xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.orgor
> xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting these
> into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
> xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?
> - We will have a list for the advisory board, which wants to be
> totally open and transparent. So this would be
> xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org and I will post minutes,
> etc. of the last meeting when we created the list.
> - xenproject-private, if we actually need it would work too. However
> the advisory board recommended in the meeting last week not to have any
> private lists at all. So maybe we don't need this.
>
> Also, for example XAPI does not have a separate dev or user list. That is
> also one to consider at some point.
>
> Anyway, I am just putting these into the room for discussion.
>
> Lars
>
> On 19/04/2013 04:52, Chip Childers wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 06:52:09PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>
> 1) A list for coordinating blog posts, other communication,
> attending of event, etc. - not sure about the name, so am looking
> for suggestions. I am not sure whether we should have public
> archives: comparable lists of other projects don't.
>
> From an outsider / lurker perspective, xen-marketing@lists.xen.org is a
> good fit.
>
>
> 2) A semi-private invite mailing list for ALL project leads,
> committers and maintainers of ALL projects hosted on xen.org
>
> Similarly to above: xen-private@lists.xen.org
>
> Both of these list names are used in other projects I'm working with /
> observe.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Xen-api mailing list
> Xen-api@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xen-api
>

Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

lars.kurth.xen at gmail

Apr 23, 2013, 1:16 AM

Post #6 of 11 (2829 views)

Permalink

I think Ian's proposal makes sense. There is no real need to have a
pre-fix, I raised this because it seems to be convention with debian and
many other projects. Personally I don't like xen-... xenproject-..., etc.
Let's wait for a couple of days and see what else comes back and then I can
make a concrete proposal for voting. I also need to check with timescales
on the domain change.
Lars

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth.xen@gmail.com>wrote:

> > I also want to know why we can't create/use a forum: It'll be more
> organized, easier to seach,
> > more categorized and more user frendly for new comers
> I don't think that our developers will want a forum.
> However for user questions, we created
> http://xenproject.org/help/questions-and-answers.html which are inessence
> a forum. You just need to start using it.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:10 PM, samir benkhellat <
> benkhellat_samir@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I also want to know why we can't create/use a forum: It'll be more
>> organized, easier to seach, more categorized and more user frendly for new
>> comers
>>
>> So what do you think?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:42:26 +0100
>> From: lars.kurth@xen.org
>> To: chip.childers@sungard.com
>> CC: xen-arm@lists.xen.org; xen-devel@lists.xen.org; xen-api@lists.xen.org
>> Subject: Re: [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific
>> purposes
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> seems nobody has any views. How about I make a more concrete proposal. I
>> also noticed that we have no real global list for voting and proposals (and
>> to discuss issues like this). I have to include all lists, which creates
>> spam. As already indicated on the blog, at some point we should move to @
>> lists.xenproject.org, which will cause some impact on mailfilters, etc.
>> (similar to when we moved from @lists.xensource.com to @lists.xen.orgabout a year ago). So that may be a good opportunity to deal with some
>> inconsistencies that have grown over time.
>>
>> It also raises questions about naming conventions for new lists. Should
>> lists be
>> - xen-...@lists.xenproject.org, or should they be
>> - xenproject-...@lists.xenproject.org
>> And then of course, should any convention be forward looking or should we
>> rename lists to be consistent and (as we are already changing @
>> lists.xenproject.org, changing the actual list name may not be any
>> worse).
>>
>> On new lists, we will need lists for
>>
>> - xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
>> xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
>> marketing (seems to work for debian)
>> - I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
>> sub-project and teams. Maybe xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.orgor
>> xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting these
>> into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
>> xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?
>> - We will have a list for the advisory board, which wants to be
>> totally open and transparent. So this would be
>> xenproject-advisoryboard@lists.xenproject.org and I will post
>> minutes, etc. of the last meeting when we created the list.
>> - xenproject-private, if we actually need it would work too. However
>> the advisory board recommended in the meeting last week not to have any
>> private lists at all. So maybe we don't need this.
>>
>> Also, for example XAPI does not have a separate dev or user list. That is
>> also one to consider at some point.
>>
>> Anyway, I am just putting these into the room for discussion.
>>
>> Lars
>>
>> On 19/04/2013 04:52, Chip Childers wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 06:52:09PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>>
>> 1) A list for coordinating blog posts, other communication,
>> attending of event, etc. - not sure about the name, so am looking
>> for suggestions. I am not sure whether we should have public
>> archives: comparable lists of other projects don't.
>>
>> From an outsider / lurker perspective, xen-marketing@lists.xen.org is a
>> good fit.
>>
>>
>> 2) A semi-private invite mailing list for ALL project leads,
>> committers and maintainers of ALL projects hosted on xen.org
>>
>> Similarly to above: xen-private@lists.xen.org
>>
>> Both of these list names are used in other projects I'm working with /
>> observe.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Xen-api mailing list
>> Xen-api@lists.xen.org
>> http://lists.xen.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xen-api
>>
>
>

Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

tim at xen

Apr 23, 2013, 4:24 AM

Post #7 of 11 (2838 views)

Permalink

At 08:42 +0100 on 23 Apr (1366706522), Ian Campbell wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-04-22 at 17:42 +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> > On new lists, we will need lists for
> > * xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
> > xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
> > marketing (seems to work for debian)
>
> For things which are xenproject wide and not related to a specific
> subproject I think omitting the prefix is the way to go, so marketing@,
> publicity@ etc, the xenproject bit is in the domain and repeating it
> makes everything sound clumsy.

+1. So, xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, xapi-devel@, &c for project
lists, but publicity@, announce@ without prefixes.

> > * I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
> > sub-project and teams. Maybe
> > xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org or
> > xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting
> > these into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
> > xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?

What would this new list be used for? The sort of thing that's currently
cross-posted to the various developer lists? Unless that list is
automatically maintained as the union of all the dev list members, it
seems like it will just make the process less transparent (since people
who join xen-devel@ won't know to join governance@ too and so will be
left out).

> vote@, committers@ and/or maintainers@ ?

I don't think there's much use for separate committer/maintainer lists:
anything the committers or maintainers want to discuss in public can
just happen on the developer lists. There won't be very much of it.

Tim.

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

lars.kurth at xen

Apr 23, 2013, 7:12 AM

Post #8 of 11 (2844 views)

Permalink

On 23/04/2013 12:24, Tim Deegan wrote:
> At 08:42 +0100 on 23 Apr (1366706522), Ian Campbell wrote:
>> On Mon, 2013-04-22 at 17:42 +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>>> On new lists, we will need lists for
>>> * xenproject-marketing@lists.xenproject.org ... maybe
>>> xenproject-publicity@lists.xenproject.org hits it better than
>>> marketing (seems to work for debian)
>> For things which are xenproject wide and not related to a specific
>> subproject I think omitting the prefix is the way to go, so marketing@,
>> publicity@ etc, the xenproject bit is in the domain and repeating it
>> makes everything sound clumsy.
> +1. So, xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, xapi-devel@, &c for project
> lists, but publicity@, announce@ without prefixes.
That sounds reasonable

>>> * I need something for votes and discussions that cut accross
>>> sub-project and teams. Maybe
>>> xenproject-proposals@lists.xenproject.org or
>>> xenproject-decisionmaking@lists.xenproject.org? Just putting
>>> these into the room: none of these sound right to me. Maybe
>>> xenproject-leadership@lists.xenproject.org is better?
> What would this new list be used for? The sort of thing that's currently
> cross-posted to the various developer lists? Unless that list is
> automatically maintained as the union of all the dev list members, it
> seems like it will just make the process less transparent (since people
> who join xen-devel@ won't know to join governance@ too and so will be
> left out).
>
>> vote@, committers@ and/or maintainers@ ?
> I don't think there's much use for separate committer/maintainer lists:
> anything the committers or maintainers want to discuss in public can
> just happen on the developer lists. There won't be very much of it.
True. The "problem" is that today everything related to governance that
cuts across projects has to be posted on xen-devel, xen-api, .... (4
Iists, but in future there may be more). I had a few individuals who
approached me in the past complaining about the spam that was caused
when the same mail is posted on several lists. If you feel that this is
in fact no issue, then I can keep on posting cross-project questions,
votes, etc. to all projects and we do not need a separate list and the
matter is settled.

There may still be a case for an alias (not alist) that includes
maintainers, committers and project leads of all projects to discuss
sensitive issues off-record. The kind of items this could be
occasionally used for is for questions such as "XYZ requested an invite
to a Hackathon - is this person engaged enough to get an invite?", we
also ocassionally had situations where a maintainer wanted some advice
on how to handle a patch/deal with friction/etc. What happened in these
cases was that e-mails amongst some members of the community were sent
around (or a Citrix alias was used, or a conversation in the kitchen
happened). That is something that I feel is problematic in the future,
but will happen if there is no easy way to get to all stake-holders.

Lars

In the past these type of discussions happened

Regards
Lars

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

tim at xen

Apr 23, 2013, 10:40 AM

Post #9 of 11 (2846 views)

Permalink

At 15:12 +0100 on 23 Apr (1366729971), Lars Kurth wrote:
> On 23/04/2013 12:24, Tim Deegan wrote:
> >I don't think there's much use for separate committer/maintainer lists:
> >anything the committers or maintainers want to discuss in public can
> >just happen on the developer lists. There won't be very much of it.
> True. The "problem" is that today everything related to governance that
> cuts across projects has to be posted on xen-devel, xen-api, .... (4
> Iists, but in future there may be more). I had a few individuals who
> approached me in the past complaining about the spam that was caused
> when the same mail is posted on several lists.

That's true. I get those emails more than once, but my MUA is smart
enough to sort out the duplicates so it doesn't bother me. I don't want
to speak for other people -- I can imagine it being quite vexing. But I
think that having a separate opt-in list for this stuff (and so leaving
people out of these discussions) would be worse than the cross-posting.

> There may still be a case for an alias (not alist) that includes
> maintainers, committers and project leads of all projects to discuss
> sensitive issues off-record.

Sure.

Tim.

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

lars.kurth at xen

May 9, 2013, 10:35 AM

Post #10 of 11 (2813 views)

Permalink

Hi everybody,

I put together a more detailed proposal on mailing list naming
conventions at
http://www.xenproject.org/component/content/article/80-developers/139-mailing-list-conventions.html,
which I believe reflects the previous discussion on this thread. Unless
anybody objects, I will put this proposal up for a vote with other
governance changes from Monday.

This will then guide the transition of mailing lists from lists.xen.org
to lists.xenproject.org. In other words, we can take the opportunity to
clean up some of the odd naming issues that have crept in over time.

Best Regards
Lars

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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-API] [Proposal] Additional mailing lists for specific purposes [ In reply to ]

Ian.Campbell at citrix

May 10, 2013, 3:06 AM

Post #11 of 11 (2815 views)

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On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 18:35 +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I put together a more detailed proposal on mailing list naming
> conventions at
> http://www.xenproject.org/component/content/article/80-developers/139-mailing-list-conventions.html,
> which I believe reflects the previous discussion on this thread. Unless
> anybody objects, I will put this proposal up for a vote with other
> governance changes from Monday.

Looks good to me. A few minor comments:

The text says everything is lower case but all the examples are upper
case...

The incoming security alert address is currently security@xen.org and
I'd expect it to become security@xenproject.org not
@lists.xenproject.org, is the security@ list there intended to be the
outgoing security alert list (i.e. the current predisclosure list)?
Should the predisclosure list be per-team?

I think the intention is that the invite only lists will still be
archived publicly, and this is what makes them distinct from the private
lists, is that correct?

Ian.

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