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The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly benefits
the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have hardware
dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle this,
the question is, should it also cost engineering time?

Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has made a
pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with the
projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to fork
the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
In this case the answer would be no.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, David Strine <dstrine@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> > We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
> > changed:
> >
> > https://bluejeans.com/396234560
>
> I'm not familiar with bluejeans and maybe have missed a transition
> because I wasn't paying enough attention. is this some kind of
> experiment? have all meetings transitioned to this service?
>
> anyway, my immediate question at the moment is how do you join without
> sharing your microphone and camera?
>
> am I correct thinking that this is an entirely proprietary stack
> that's neither gratis nor libre and has no on-premise (not cloud)
> hosting option? are we paying for this?
>
> -Jeremy
>
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BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code by
googling for "bluejeans source". ;)

It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger limit
for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
open than Google Hangout.

When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.

Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
development. ;)

-- brion


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 3:36 PM, David Strine <dstrine@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> > We will be holding this brownbag in 25 minutes. The Bluejeans link has
> > changed:
> >
> > https://bluejeans.com/396234560
>
> I'm not familiar with bluejeans and maybe have missed a transition
> because I wasn't paying enough attention. is this some kind of
> experiment? have all meetings transitioned to this service?
>
> anyway, my immediate question at the moment is how do you join without
> sharing your microphone and camera?
>
> am I correct thinking that this is an entirely proprietary stack
> that's neither gratis nor libre and has no on-premise (not cloud)
> hosting option? are we paying for this?
>
> -Jeremy
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Hi,

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Ryan Lane <rlane32@gmail.com> wrote:
> The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
> to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly benefits
> the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
> ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have hardware
> dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle this,
> the question is, should it also cost engineering time?
>
> Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has made a
> pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
> proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with the
> projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to fork
> the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
> In this case the answer would be no.

the old default (AFAIK) was Google Hangouts. which I guess is just as
closed source but maybe is less cost? note that I'm not saying that
sub-optimal cost or source availability or hosting options are
necessarily a reason to not use bluejeans. but I would at least like
to be aware of the answers to those questions.

OTOH, IMO, the (apparent) inability to use this service with stock
Chrome (on a chromebook, stable channel) without sharing my
webcam/microphone is a blocker. (which maybe we can get them to fix)

I suppose the service may work ok with a Chrome instance that itself
doesn't have access to the webcam/microphone hardware. But that's not
good enough. again, IMO.

-Jeremy

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Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
'computer' and before selecting 'join'.

-- brion

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Ryan Lane <rlane32@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The right question here is: is it more important for Wikimedia foundation
> > to use only open source than it is to focus on work that directly
> benefits
> > the movement? There's no reasonable open source to do this function. The
> > ones that exist are terrible, are less efficient, and have to have
> hardware
> > dedicated to them. In either case it's going to cost money to handle
> this,
> > the question is, should it also cost engineering time?
> >
> > Idealism comes at a pretty high cost. The foundation in the past has
> made a
> > pretty reasonable choice in the past in that they're willing to use
> > proprietary software for functions that aren't directly associated with
> the
> > projects. The decision is often focused on "if the community wanted to
> fork
> > the projects, would this proprietary software we're using be a problem?".
> > In this case the answer would be no.
>
> the old default (AFAIK) was Google Hangouts. which I guess is just as
> closed source but maybe is less cost? note that I'm not saying that
> sub-optimal cost or source availability or hosting options are
> necessarily a reason to not use bluejeans. but I would at least like
> to be aware of the answers to those questions.
>
> OTOH, IMO, the (apparent) inability to use this service with stock
> Chrome (on a chromebook, stable channel) without sharing my
> webcam/microphone is a blocker. (which maybe we can get them to fix)
>
> I suppose the service may work ok with a Chrome instance that itself
> doesn't have access to the webcam/microphone hardware. But that's not
> good enough. again, IMO.
>
> -Jeremy
>
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>
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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
> 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.

right, I saw those.

the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
at requiring you to allow access.

-Jeremy

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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> > Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
> > 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.
>
> right, I saw those.
>
> the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
> using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
> at requiring you to allow access.
>

Heh.... ok that would be something to report upstream yes. :)

Not relevant to a lot of folks doing straightforward video conferencing so
that's probably why it's not already working, but probably relevant to our
usage for presentations with large audiences. (When there's a YouTube live
stream that's at least watchable on most browsers, but then you can't
participate in the direct chat.)

-- brion
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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
>

Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.

[1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
installed from Debian.
[2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
actually get any audio or video.


--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Jeremy Baron <jeremy@tuxmachine.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>> > Jeremy, uncheck the microphone and camera buttons after selecting
>> > 'computer' and before selecting 'join'.
>>
>> right, I saw those.
>>
>> the problem is that if you have Chrome set to disallow websites from
>> using your Mic/Camera then you can't get that far. it just gets stuck
>> at requiring you to allow access.

(to clarify, I was using the service as a guest, I don't have an account.)

I'm happy to help with more STR if needed.

> Heh.... ok that would be something to report upstream yes. :)

:)

so, do I open my own support ticket? I guess I'll wait a bit to see if
someone knows whether or not we have a relationship with them and they
want to file for me? (best guess would be OIT?)

> Not relevant to a lot of folks doing straightforward video conferencing so
> that's probably why it's not already working,

sure, I don't know much about them, I just heard of the service for
the first time today. I think.

> but probably relevant to our
> usage for presentations with large audiences.

yeah, that was my point.

we have audiences that have more than average concerns about privacy. but also
* we shouldn't make it hard for people to enforce least privilege (and
we shouldn't be getting people into the habit of clicking allow
unnecessarily): don't allow access to camera if you're not going to
use the camera. and
* some people may want to watch a presentation in their pajamas, etc. :)

> (When there's a YouTube live
> stream that's at least watchable on most browsers, but then you can't
> participate in the direct chat.)

yeah.

actually, if we do have a relationship with them then I wonder if this
is available for others to use too? I know some other Wikimedia
meetings where this was an issue. at first glance, doesn't look like
they publish prices or offer a free tier; they say that the free trial
lasts 14 days.

I did some searching and found projects related to bluejeans and they
offer various auxiliary software packages (e.g. browser plugins and
the relay) for download directly from the bluejeans site. but no sign
of source or license (or even statement that they are proprietary).
maybe someone else lurking has the answer?

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
<bjorsch@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
> to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.
>
> [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
> Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> installed from Debian.
> [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> actually get any audio or video.

ugh, another maybe blocker.

(I was using Google branded Chrome so didn't run into any of that yet)

-Jeremy

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2016-03-01 23:55 GMT+02:00 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <bjorsch@wikimedia.org>:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
>> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to enable
>> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you have
> to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.

Secure or not, why do I have to download and extract an archive,
instead of using the browser's addon system? I don't know about price
or freedom (can't find the source code either) but as far as ease of
use is concerned, it lags way behind Hangouts.
>
> [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed from
> Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> installed from Debian.

Yeah, no luck on opensuse either.

Strainu

> [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> actually get any audio or video.
>
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Yep, all Linux-compatible large-group video conferencing options known are
known to be bad in different ways.

-- brion

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Strainu <strainu10@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2016-03-01 23:55 GMT+02:00 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <bjorsch@wikimedia.org>:
> > On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> When you join you're prompted to either use your computer or use a phone
> >> connection; if you choose computer, you then are given the chance to
> enable
> >> or disable the camera and mic before the connection actually starts.
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunately, if you choose computer and aren't using Chrome,[1] you
> have
> > to install a browser plugin that people I trust say is not secure.
>
> Secure or not, why do I have to download and extract an archive,
> instead of using the browser's addon system? I don't know about price
> or freedom (can't find the source code either) but as far as ease of
> use is concerned, it lags way behind Hangouts.
> >
> > [1]: Some people have said that it also works with Chromium installed
> from
> > Ubuntu, but last time I tried it only pretends to work[2] for Chromium
> > installed from Debian.
>
> Yeah, no luck on opensuse either.
>
> Strainu
>
> > [2]: "Pretends to work" meaning it looks like it joined but you don't
> > actually get any audio or video.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:21 AM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code by
> googling for "bluejeans source". ;)

I've dug around a bit, and also cant find anything to suggest that
they are open sourcing any parts of their solution, or anything
resembling bjn providing development or support for existing open
source technology components.

Their own java classes are using namespace "vc.bjn", and googing that
doesnt lead to anything.

Here is their recent github organisation:

https://github.com/BlueJeansNetwork

This looks like an older one:

https://github.com/bluejeansnet

And here is the only use of "vc.bjn" in github, by an employee

https://github.com/Aldaviva/tailor

Other employees have "operations"-like repos

https://github.com/sczizzo

If the organisation is a credible contributor to open source, I havent
found it yet. I hope that WMF included "open sourciness" in their
product selection criteria & evaluation, so their should be some
document describing how BJN is contributing to open source. It would
be great if that can be shared.

> It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger limit
> for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
> open than Google Hangout.
>...
> Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
> personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
> development. ;)

If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)

http://bigbluebutton.org/

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On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 9:00 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:21 AM, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> > BlueJeans is "open source" though I can't offhand find their source code
> by
> > googling for "bluejeans source". ;)
>
> I've dug around a bit, and also cant find anything to suggest that
> they are open sourcing any parts of their solution, or anything
> resembling bjn providing development or support for existing open
> source technology components.
>
> Their own java classes are using namespace "vc.bjn", and googing that
> doesnt lead to anything.
>
> Here is their recent github organisation:
>
> https://github.com/BlueJeansNetwork
>
> This looks like an older one:
>
> https://github.com/bluejeansnet
>
> And here is the only use of "vc.bjn" in github, by an employee
>
> https://github.com/Aldaviva/tailor
>
> Other employees have "operations"-like repos
>
> https://github.com/sczizzo
>
> If the organisation is a credible contributor to open source, I havent
> found it yet. I hope that WMF included "open sourciness" in their
> product selection criteria & evaluation, so their should be some
> document describing how BJN is contributing to open source. It would
> be great if that can be shared.
>
> > It's being used mostly for larger meetings because a) it has a larger
> limit
> > for number of participants than Google Hangout and b) it seems to be more
> > open than Google Hangout.
> >...
> > Can't answer on if anybody's paying anything as I don't know, but
> > personally I would hope we are helping to fund their open source
> > development. ;)
>
> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>
> http://bigbluebutton.org/
>
> From the FAQ: If you have a session with 20 users and all share their
webcam (yes, this is possible) will generate 400 streams

Pretty much sounds like a deal breaker to me. The primary use case of
bluejeans is for meetings where we need a hundred people in the same
channel. The difference with bluejeans is it manages the streams on the
backend and sends just one video stream to each user (afaik).


> --
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>
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Hi!

> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>
> http://bigbluebutton.org/

I've checked their demo and it uses Flash. Which is very iffy from
security standpoint, may lead to various issues on platforms that don't
support it or where support is sketchy and is not a good idea in general
long-term since Flash is on its way out as a technology.

While I'm all for supporting open-source, both by using it and
contributing to it, in this particular case it doesn't look like viable
solution to me.

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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
>> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
>> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>>
>> http://bigbluebutton.org/
>
> I've checked their demo and it uses Flash. Which is very iffy from
> security standpoint, may lead to various issues on platforms that don't
> support it or where support is sketchy and is not a good idea in general
> long-term since Flash is on its way out as a technology.
>
> While I'm all for supporting open-source, both by using it and
> contributing to it, in this particular case it doesn't look like viable
> solution to me.

The demo has a html5 client, and the demo asks me whether I want to
use Flash or HTML5.

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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Erik Bernhardson
<ebernhardson@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 9:00 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> If BNJ isnt actually open source, here is an open source solution that
>> we could use and help fund as required (e.g. buying their commercial
>> offerings so that WMF Engineering/Ops doesnt need to support it)
>>
>> http://bigbluebutton.org/
>>
>> From the FAQ: If you have a session with 20 users and all share their
> webcam (yes, this is possible) will generate 400 streams

Do you mean 20 concurrent screen sharing is a requirement for any
replacement of Blue Jeans?
That sounds like an usual meeting ;-)
Anyway, in 2010, they had that configuration:
http://bigbluebutton.org/2010/11/22/193-simultaneous-users/

My guess is that it is better in 2016. Anyway, best we ask them, if
we can give them a list of requirements and a budget.

http://blindsidenetworks.com/hosting

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I recommend you to try open source Canvas LMS which is replacing other open source platforms: https://enterexe.com/open-source-canvas-lms-software-implementation
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