Mailing List Archive

META tags
I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.

Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

Magnus
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Magnus Manske wrote:
> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
>
> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

Sounds pretty cool to me.
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
> (Magnus Manske <magnus.manske@web.de>):
> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
>
> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

"META" tags are all but useless, and only useful at all if they
are carefully created by human evaluation and judgment. Any
attempt to create automatic ones is not likely to produce any
meaningful result.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 12:36:03PM -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> > (Magnus Manske <magnus.manske@web.de>):
> > I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> > we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> > the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
> >
> > Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?
>
> "META" tags are all but useless, and only useful at all if they
> are carefully created by human evaluation and judgment. Any
> attempt to create automatic ones is not likely to produce any
> meaningful result.

That's not true !
Lot of search engines rely on meta tags.
The only search engine we get lot of traffic from is Google
(which ignores META tags). The rest are almost ignoring us
and this is one of reasons.
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> advertisers are.

I'm not sure there's anything inherently dishonest about creating meta
keyword tags from linked words. Those keywords are real keywords for
the article -- it seems like a pretty good proxy for what humans would
enter into a separate field anyway, and yet it doesn't cost us any
human labor.

I guess my question is: what's the downside? What's the harm?
Generally being guilty of participating in something that other people
manipulate unfairly doesn't strike me as a real downside.

--Jimbo
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
> > "META" tags are all but useless, and only useful at all if they
> > are carefully created by human evaluation and judgment. Any
> > attempt to create automatic ones is not likely to produce any
> > meaningful result.
>
> That's not true !
> Lot of search engines rely on meta tags.
> The only search engine we get lot of traffic from is Google
> (which ignores META tags). The rest are almost ignoring us
> and this is one of reasons.

That's one reason why Google is the only search engine that
matters; they discovered long ago that META tags provided no
useful information, so they evaluated pages on their own.

Information is only useful when it is honest and accurate.
Because search-engine rankings are economically valuable, the
natural incentive is to manipulate the self-descriptive
information in META tags to achieve the result, rather than
making them honest and accurate. Because of that, search
engines that use META tags rank highly those who are most
adept at manipulation, not those of most real value.

I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
advertisers are.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 02:04:54PM -0600, Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
> That's one reason why Google is the only search engine that
> matters; they discovered long ago that META tags provided no
> useful information, so they evaluated pages on their own.

Some people use Google, others use different search engines.
Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they don't matter.

> Information is only useful when it is honest and accurate.

Information is almost never completely honest nd accurate.

> Because search-engine rankings are economically valuable, the
> natural incentive is to manipulate the self-descriptive
> information in META tags to achieve the result, rather than
> making them honest and accurate. Because of that, search
> engines that use META tags rank highly those who are most
> adept at manipulation, not those of most real value.
>
> I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> advertisers are.

I'd use titles of pages linking to given article as meta keywords
(if there are too many, get most important of them) and first
paragraph or two (if first paragraph is too short) as meta description.

Programs should do that ! Humans aren't good at dealing with
big amounts of data.
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Jimmy Wales wrote:
> I guess my question is: what's the downside? What's the harm?

The only thing would be that the HTML gets a little longer, as there's
more information to transport.

As search engines are not logged in, and the META tags contain no
information that would be displayed, we could add META tags for anons
only, so logged-in users won't get the META tags.

Magnus
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
> > I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> > tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> > But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> > get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> > then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> > advertisers are.
>
> I'm not sure there's anything inherently dishonest about creating meta
> keyword tags from linked words. Those keywords are real keywords for
> the article -- it seems like a pretty good proxy for what humans would
> enter into a separate field anyway, and yet it doesn't cost us any
> human labor.
>
> I guess my question is: what's the downside? What's the harm?
> Generally being guilty of participating in something that other people
> manipulate unfairly doesn't strike me as a real downside.

Fair enough; I agree there's little downside, especially if we
did as Magnus suggests and send them only to anonymous browsers.
But to me, the fact that article A links to article B doesn't
actually tell us anything, and what it does tell us is already
encoded in the mere fact that the link exists. Putting in extra
META tags is merely repeating the same information in a different
place. So we aren't "adding keywords" at all--we're just making
longet HTML for the same information content.

I'd like to see some means of actually making more meaningful
content. If an author were able, say, to see a list of links
and choose, say, the top three or four, then /that/ would really
be useful information. Then it's not just the fact that A links
to B (which could be completely irrelevant, since we link
everything here), it records the fact that some person thought
that the link from A to B was important.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com> <http://www.piclab.com/lee/>
"All inventions or works of authorship original to me, herein and past,
are placed irrevocably in the public domain, and may be used or modified
for any purpose, without permission, attribution, or notification."--LDC
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.

> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?

Seems reasonable, but the algorithm should only pick the first 20 links or
so (some pages have hundreds of links). Perhaps it could be made a little
smarter, counting the frequency of each link and using the most frequent
ones, but I don't really know how common duplicate links are.

Also, at most 500 bytes of the first para should be used.

Regards,

Erik
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
> I would not oppose some means of allowing authors to add META
> tags that were honest and accurate and based on human judgment.
> But if we created META tags by some automated process just to
> get higher rankings on search engines that still use them,
> then we would be guilty of manipulation just as other
> advertisers are.

The process of adding links to an article is a lot like selecting
keywords:

Stephen King is a [[horror]] [[author]] ...

Not using this information to make life easier for some search engines
seems like a waste. On the other hand, I doubt that other search engines
than Google really matter nowadays, and I agree that meta tags depend a
lot on honesty, which makes them notoriously unreliable.

Regards,

Erik
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Magnus Manske <magnus.manske@web.de> wrote in
news:3E68DCED.3060104@web.de:

> I noticed that we lost (?) the META tags from Phase II. As a reminder,
> we had the titles of all the links in an article as META keywords, and
> the first paragraph (roughly;-) as META content.
>
> Should we set this up again (more precise in Google hits)?
>
> Magnus


If it is done, please also include the LANG="XX" tag . So language specific
search engines can find them better.

And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?


--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be
Re: Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
>
> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?

The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem. Better, a good thing ;)

Regards.
Re: Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
"Pedro M.V." <macv@interlap.com.ar> wrote in
news:000601c2e57d$e2c79ac0$ac5ecb51@megavia:

>>
>> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4
>> minutes?
>
> The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem.
> Better, a good thing ;)
>
> Regards.

Why should that be yet a again a other option?
A option only for this seems silly.

Soon there will be a need for a "basic user preferences" and "advanced user
preferences"


--
Contact: giskart AT wikipedia.be
Ook een artikeltje schrijven? WikipediaNL, de vrije GNU/FDL encyclopedie
http://www.wikipedia.be
Re: Re: Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Giskart wrote:
Soon there will be a need for a "basic user preferences" and "advanced user
> preferences"

No, but a new special page "Recent changes toys" ;-)

If we change the standard behaviour of Recent Changes, some people want
a user option to change it back!

Also, a hundred unwatched Recent Pages auto-refreshing every few minutes
might increase server load quite a bit.

Magnus
Re: Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Pedro M.V. wrote:

>>And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4 minutes?
>>
>
>The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem. Better, a good thing ;)
>
This doesn't seem like a good idea. It seems to me that it would stress
the server for things that one doesn't really need. A person who goes
to dinner for an hour with the recent changes page open will have
uselessly sought to refresh 15 times.

Ec
Re: Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:15:36 -0800, Ray Saintonge
<saintonge@telus.net> wrote:

> Pedro M.V. wrote:
>
>>> And what do you think about a auto-refresh for recent changes, 4
>>> minutes?
>>>
>>
>> The user could mark the box about it in Preferences. So, no problem.
>> Better, a good thing ;)
>>
> This doesn't seem like a good idea. It seems to me that it would stress
> the server for things that one doesn't really need. A person who goes to
> dinner for an hour with the recent changes page open will have uselessly
> sought to refresh 15 times.
>
A good point. And redundant since there are browsers which will refresh a
certain URL at a preset interval for you. For other browsers you could even
use the likes of Proxomitron to write a meta refresh into the page as it
reaches you. Just promise solemnly to close the page if you go to dinner!



--
Richard Grevers
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Magnus Manske wrote:
> As search engines are not logged in, and the META tags contain no
> information that would be displayed, we could add META tags for anons
> only, so logged-in users won't get the META tags.

That sounds very clever.

--Jimbo
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:

> I'd use titles of pages linking to given article as meta keywords
> (if there are too many, get most important of them) and first
> paragraph or two (if first paragraph is too short) as meta description.

Using pages linked to an article sounds like a bad idea, because it means
that we should do one more search of the complete table of links for each
page loaded. Therefore, it is a much better idea to use links from rather
than links to the page. In validity of the resulting keywords the two methods
don't differ much, I think, and the second is more economical on our
resources.

Andre Engels
Re: META tags [ In reply to ]
Meta-tag or similar solution would be very interesting of pages with words to translate to antoher languages.

I.e. imagine the Halloween phrase : "Trick or treat" ( or similar ). I would translate it directly to spanish "Truco o trato" using these metatags ( we donĀ“t need an article about this "trick or treat" expression.

This is very interesting to understand another cultures.

Regards.