Mailing List Archive

What are the requirements to be able to get de.wikipedia to the latest
version of the software. What could Kurt help with?

Can we set a specific date for the move? How about this upcoming Saturday?
Or Sunday?

--Jimbo


Kurt Jansson wrote:

> Hello dear people who have the right to access the server!
>
> Some people (including me) are really getting annoyed about the delay of
> the software change of the German wikipedia. Almost every day I (or
> someone else) has to explain, that this and that feature is coming soon
> with the new software - since several months. I know that nobody gets
> paid for this work, and I appreciate every line of code written, etc.
> But please don't make people believe that the software change is coming
> soon, if in reality it will take about half a year.
>
> Some things are put on hold in the German Wikipedia - like a press
> release - until the software change. But it's getting quite frustraing
> now.
>
> I don't want to accuse anyone, but just say: Don't promise things you
> can't keep. If your focus is on the Englisch Wikipedia that's okay with
> me, but just tell us so that we can deal with it.
>
>
> Kurt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> What are the requirements to be able to get de.wikipedia to the latest
> version of the software. What could Kurt help with?
>

If I recall correctly, there is a test version of the german wikipedia
on the new software. However, I don't recall any comments about the
bug list since it was translated a while back. Most of the problems I
saw on the bug list were fairly simple fixes (mis-spellings or
mis-translations). Of note, however, is the different date format.
Of course, there are other issues that may be larger than I am
realizing...

Jason Richey

English version:
http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia:Bug_report

German (original) version:
http://test-de.wikipedia.com/wiki/wikipedia:Beobachtete_Fehler

To: wikitech-l@nupedia.com
Cc:
Bcc:
Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] software change for German Wikipedia
Reply-To:
In-Reply-To: <20020819055707.E8069@joey.bomis.com>; from
jwales@bomis.com on Mo\
n, Aug 19, 2002 at 05:57:07AM -0700

Jimmy Wales wrote:

> What are the requirements to be able to get de.wikipedia to the
> latest
> version of the software. What could Kurt help with?
>

If I recall correctly, there is a test version of the german wikipedia
on the new software. However, I don't recall any comments about the
bug list since it was translated a while back. Most of the problems I
saw on the bug list were fairly simple fixes

> Can we set a specific date for the move? How about this upcoming Saturday?
> Or Sunday?
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> Kurt Jansson wrote:
>
> > Hello dear people who have the right to access the server!
> >
> > Some people (including me) are really getting annoyed about the delay of
> > the software change of the German wikipedia. Almost every day I (or
> > someone else) has to explain, that this and that feature is coming soon
> > with the new software - since several months. I know that nobody gets
> > paid for this work, and I appreciate every line of code written, etc.
> > But please don't make people believe that the software change is coming
> > soon, if in reality it will take about half a year.
> >
> > Some things are put on hold in the German Wikipedia - like a press
> > release - until the software change. But it's getting quite frustraing
> > now.
> >
> > I don't want to accuse anyone, but just say: Don't promise things you
> > can't keep. If your focus is on the Englisch Wikipedia that's okay with
> > me, but just tell us so that we can deal with it.
> >
> >
> > Kurt
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@ross.bomis.com
> > http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr@bomis.com>

> What are the requirements to be able to get de.wikipedia to the
> latest version of the software. What could Kurt help with?

Do you want to put it on the new server or the old one? Magnus
has done an intitial translation for the new software, and Brion's
conversion scripts are complete, so I'd just need to get my hands
on the existing database, do the initial installation, and then
hopefully hand over maintenance to Magnus.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:49:47AM -0700, lcrocker@nupedia.com wrote:
>
> Do you want to put it on the new server or the old one? Magnus
> has done an intitial translation for the new software, and Brion's
> conversion scripts are complete, so I'd just need to get my hands
> on the existing database, do the initial installation, and then
> hopefully hand over maintenance to Magnus.

Woulnd't it be better to have a set-up where all updates to the codebase of
the English Wikipedia are (semi-)automatically propagated to all Wikipedias
that use the same codebase? If not I fear that the non-English Wikipedias
will keep on lagging behind on the bug fixes or new features such the
enhanced recent changes page or subtle (or not so subtle) changes in the
markup language, or whatever changes are yet to come. Making the updates
automatic would also ensure that all futere changes in the Wikipedia are
internationalization aware, because it they're not the bug reports will
start coming in from the non-English Wikpedias.

Having said that, it should of course be the community of the German
Wikipedia who decides if they really want such a setup. But if they do, then
please let us get things right this time.

-- Jan Hidders

> Woulnd't it be better to have a set-up where all updates to
> the codebase of the English Wikipedia are (semi-)automatically
> propagated to all Wikipedias that use the same codebase? If not
> I fear that the non-English Wikipedias will keep on lagging behind
> on the bug fixes or new features such the enhanced recent changes
> page or subtle (or not so subtle) changes in the markup language,
> or whatever changes are yet to come. Making the updates automatic
> would also ensure that all future changes in the Wikipedia are
> internationalization aware, because if they're not the bug reports
> will start coming in from the non-English Wikpedias.

I'm inclined to think that if a particular community isn't large
enough to come up with a developer to take care of its own needs,
then it /should/ be left behind. UseMod wiki is a fine piece of
software for a small level of activity, and if a group never
outgrows it, I don't see any reason for me to waste time and
effort on them. The German, Spanish, and Polish guys are on the
ball and won't be a problem. But I don't plan to make much effort
on behalf of the others unless they can come up with someone
from among their own ranks with the energy and skills necessary
to take care of themselves.

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 09:47:34AM -0700, lcrocker@nupedia.com wrote:
> > Woulnd't it be better to have a set-up where all updates to the codebase
> > of the English Wikipedia are (semi-)automatically propagated to all
> > Wikipedias that use the same codebase? [...]
>
> I'm inclined to think that if a particular community isn't large
> enough to come up with a developer to take care of its own needs,
> then it /should/ be left behind. UseMod wiki is a fine piece of
> software for a small level of activity, and if a group never
> outgrows it, I don't see any reason for me to waste time and
> effort on them.

Just for clarity, I was only talking about "all Wikipedias that use the same
codebase". What I'm concerned about is that those that will move to the
Phase III script will also stay in sync in the future. Also note that I
wrote "semi-automatic"; I realize that updates that involve running scripts
on the database and/or changing the database schema should not be automated.
But at least the updates that involve only updating the common scripts
should be made as easy as possible. I would suggest that we put the local
scripts and common scripts into separate directories.

> The German, Spanish, and Polish guys are on the ball and won't be a
> problem.

Hmm, that reminds me, perhaps I should get a bit more involved with the
Dutch Wikipedia. :-)

But are you really sure there will be no problems? What I am afraid of is
that local developers start fixing bugs in the common part of the code. What
happens if you don't agree with those fixes? Or what if one of your updates
to the common part is going to break something on their Wikipedia? Are they
then going to have to fix this locally or should they stick to the previous
version until you have fixed the problem or approved their fix? Can they
depend on you for this? Apologies if that sounds insulting but from their
point of view that may not be so obvious.

Perhaps I'm only stating the obvious here, but I would suggest the following
guidelines:
- Local developers can make always updates in local parts of the code, for
updates in the common part of the code they should ask Lee's permisson.
- When a new version of the code is installed for the English Wikipedia then
this should be announced (on Wikitech-l) and then installed on local
Wikipedias by the local developers as soon as possible.
- Local developers are responsible for putting local bug-reports on
something in the common code in the Sourceforge bugtracker.

-- Jan Hidders

> Perhaps I'm only stating the obvious here, but I would suggest
> the following guidelines:
> - Local developers can make always updates in local parts
> of the code, for updates in the common part of the code they
> should ask Lee's permisson.
> - When a new version of the code is installed for the English
> Wikipedia then this should be announced (on Wikitech-l) and
> then installed on local Wikipedias by the local developers as
> soon as possible.
> - Local developers are responsible for putting local bug-reports
> on something in the common code in the Sourceforge bugtracker.

It should be simpler than that. There is only one codebase, and
it contains only one language-specific file: "LanguageDe.php",
"LanguageEs.php", and so on, all of which are kept in the single
codebase. There'a also a "LocalSettings.php" for each install,
but that doesn't change once installed.
Those files can be changed at will by anyone without affecting
the English wiki, and should be. The code is also organized so
that if, say, I add a special page and update the code of the
foreign version, that special page will appear in the foreign
version, but with English text; they can add the translation for
that page at any time, no coordination needed.

I also don't have any problem with Brion, Magnus, you, and other
developers doing direct checkins. I'd prefer that such new checkins
be tested on my server before installing them on the wiki server,
but even there I can see small bug fixes not wanting to bother.

In short, I don't think we need to worry about coordination unless
one of the groups decides to "fork" the code for some reason, and
in that case I'd try to talk them out of it, but if they really
wanted to do it, they're free to, and then they'd definitely be on
their own.

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:18:14PM -0700, lcrocker@nupedia.com wrote:
>
> [...] The code is also organized so that if, say, I add a special page and
> update the code of the foreign version, that special page will appear in
> the foreign version, but with English text; they can add the translation
> for that page at any time, no coordination needed.

If *you* update the code of the foreign version? Does that mean that you
would also take care of installing the updated code for the foreign
versions? That would take all my worries away, but I was under the
impression you wanted to leave that to the local developers.

-- Jan Hidders

>> [...] The code is also organized so that if, say, I add a
>> special page and update the code of the foreign version, that
>> special page will appear in the foreign version, but with
>> English text; they can add the translation for that page at
>> any time, no coordination needed.

> If *you* update the code of the foreign version? Does that mean
> that you would also take care of installing the updated code for
> the foreign versions? That would take all my worries away, but I
> was under the impression you wanted to leave that to the local
> developers.

Well, read that as "if the code gets updated from CVS", by
whoever. When I update the main code with something like a bug
fix, it will be a pretty trivial thing for me to update the
forgeign ones at the same time, so I'll probably do that. But
I also might forget. Also, someone like Magnus might fix a bug
and update only the German installation, leaving me to update
the English one later.

Jimbo moved us to the new server in part so he could give
accounts out more freely (currently I, Axel, Brion, Magnus, and
Neil have accounts there), so he would no longer be a bottleneck
or a single point of failure. It makes no sense to just make me
the bottleneck instead (although I'm sure Jimbo sees that as an
improvement :-)

For those wikipedias that /should/ be using the same codebase, it
seems reasonable to me that they should have all of the scripts
symlinked to the scripts of the main wikipedia. Then, any
configurable variables could be exported by Apache as ENV variables.
By doing this, you avoid running a script to update things, a person
doesn't have to update them manually, and all of the apropriate
wikipedias will be running the same software...

Just a thought...

Jason

Jan Hidders wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 09:47:34AM -0700, lcrocker@nupedia.com wrote:
> > > Woulnd't it be better to have a set-up where all updates to the codebase
> > > of the English Wikipedia are (semi-)automatically propagated to all
> > > Wikipedias that use the same codebase? [...]
> >
> > I'm inclined to think that if a particular community isn't large
> > enough to come up with a developer to take care of its own needs,
> > then it /should/ be left behind. UseMod wiki is a fine piece of
> > software for a small level of activity, and if a group never
> > outgrows it, I don't see any reason for me to waste time and
> > effort on them.
>
> Just for clarity, I was only talking about "all Wikipedias that use the same
> codebase". What I'm concerned about is that those that will move to the
> Phase III script will also stay in sync in the future. Also note that I
> wrote "semi-automatic"; I realize that updates that involve running scripts
> on the database and/or changing the database schema should not be automated.
> But at least the updates that involve only updating the common scripts
> should be made as easy as possible. I would suggest that we put the local
> scripts and common scripts into separate directories.
>
> > The German, Spanish, and Polish guys are on the ball and won't be a
> > problem.
>
> Hmm, that reminds me, perhaps I should get a bit more involved with the
> Dutch Wikipedia. :-)
>
> But are you really sure there will be no problems? What I am afraid of is
> that local developers start fixing bugs in the common part of the code. What
> happens if you don't agree with those fixes? Or what if one of your updates
> to the common part is going to break something on their Wikipedia? Are they
> then going to have to fix this locally or should they stick to the previous
> version until you have fixed the problem or approved their fix? Can they
> depend on you for this? Apologies if that sounds insulting but from their
> point of view that may not be so obvious.
>
> Perhaps I'm only stating the obvious here, but I would suggest the following
> guidelines:
> - Local developers can make always updates in local parts of the code, for
> updates in the common part of the code they should ask Lee's permisson.
> - When a new version of the code is installed for the English Wikipedia then
> this should be announced (on Wikitech-l) and then installed on local
> Wikipedias by the local developers as soon as possible.
> - Local developers are responsible for putting local bug-reports on
> something in the common code in the Sourceforge bugtracker.
>
> -- Jan Hidders
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@ross.bomis.com
> http://ross.bomis.com/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

--
"Jason C. Richey" <jasonr@bomis.com>

>For those wikipedias that /should/ be using the same codebase, it
>seems reasonable to me that they should have all of the scripts
>symlinked to the scripts of the main wikipedia. Then, any
>configurable variables could be exported by Apache as ENV variables.
>By doing this, you avoid running a script to update things, a person
>doesn't have to update them manually, and all of the apropriate
>wikipedias will be running the same software...

That will work wonderfully up to the first time we make a software
update that requires a database change. In that case, we want to
make sure that the upgrade process incudes the database update, and
each one has to be done individually.