Mailing List Archive

I've been busy all week, so when I finally caught up with this thread
I found myself marveling at the complaints of inexperienced travelers,
acknowledging several fair gripes about this year's venue,
appreciating the more insightful points by some posters, and being
particularly encouraged by Patricio's post.

As a veteran Wikimania organizer, and having participated in the
selection process for every Wikimania to date, I could write an essay
on what I think about our annual conference (which, despite the
inevitable problems, people still attend). I'll try to be brief here,
though.

No conference venue is going to be perfect. One year there won't be
enough snacks; another venue won't have adequate power ports in
certain areas; a country might have too many poor people. (Read up,
these are actual complaints cited in this thread alone.) No
conference venue, period, is going to have adequate WiFi—I do this for
a living; I taped access points to walls in Frankfurt, and the fact is
that it's not a perfect technology. (It's not even a particularly
good one, actually, but we manage.)

Every year those involved learn from the previous year's mistakes, and
we make new ones. Because every venue is different, new problems will
occur that were never anticipated in the past. What makes Wikimania
great is just getting everyone together in one place, and though I'm
not going to say "kwitcherbitchin," I will say that some of the
complaints I've seen simply aren't helpful. This said, I hope people
keep posting, because I'd rather roll my eyes at a noob comment than
risk missing out on a good point.

I'm looking forward to Wikimania 2009. Patricio and his team are
impressively dedicated to doing this right, and have practically
treated the last two Wikimanias as a case study—and good thing, since
each one gets harder and harder to top. I have no doubt we won't be
disappointed.

Austin

P.S. Since all we've seen are the unpleasant arrival stories, I want
to relate mine: I arrived in Cairo at 3:55 a.m., spent a mere 30
minutes buying a visa and getting through passport control, got a cab
to the hotel my friends had checked into a few hours before, got a key
from reception, crashed for a few hours, had a leisurely breakfast,
got a cab to the train station, took a train to Alexandria, and got a
cab to another hotel. All it takes is a little prior research and
planning, and a little bit of savvy. Yes, along the way I was waylaid
by unscrupulous cab drivers in the airport, had my driver disrupt a
wedding, waited an hour in the heat of the Cairo train station, had to
negotiate a seat swap with another passenger to sit with my friends,
watched as a cab driver spent five minutes banging on his engine with
a pair of pliers to get his '72 Lada running again, and overpaid for
most everything, only to spend the next two nights with three beds
crammed into a particularly small room of a colonial hotel; although I
realize not everyone finds this sort of thing fun as I do, you have to
manage your own expectations. There are no golden carriages in the
developing world.
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Hi everyone,


This probably comes WAY too late, but better late than never. This was my
first Wikimania, definitely and hopefully not my last. I enjoyed the
sessions and meeting everyone although I had to leave on the morning of the
last day. I would also like to add my thanks to the organizing team and
Bibliotheca Alexandrina staff for the efforts put into this.

I tried to quickly read all of the post-conference mailing list discussion
on the good and the bad of the conference, opinions on Alexandrina, Egypt,
personal experiences and all that's related, and would just like to add my
personal view to what I feel is a healthy and constructive discussion in
which I was glad to see a diversity of opinion, openness in sharing personal
views and experiences as well as a reasoned analysis on how this Wikimania
relates to previous and future Wikimanias. Again, I am dropping in rather
late into this discussion and I do believe that most of whatever I would
have liked to add or share has already been said, and which I am in
agreement with, so the need to reiterate many of the points discussed wanes,
as what I might think of as personal opinion might read as perennial
paraphrase.

That said, the impulse to share with you my personal take on some specific
points remains, so you will have to forgive me :). In the interest of being
as brief as possible, I will resist the temptation of writing a drawn-out
essay on everything I would like to address with a "personal take" (I tend
to do that sometimes:)).

The issues in question are those related to the views shared by some here
about their experiences in Egypt. By "experiences in Egypt" I am discounting
judgments on the organization of the conference, as I already saw that such
issues (of the organizational efficiency of the conference, that is) were
duly addressed by many contributers, and will continue to be addressed
during the lead-up to the 2010. What I am going to address- or rather
comment on – is the issue of "openness". Yes, it is wildly general term but
it is also one that you are all very familiar with: open media, open
culture, open access are all topics discussed at this and previous
wikimanias, and which form a discourse that will continue to be addressed in
future wikimanias and other conferences. Most important to the context of
this discussion, these are issues that you all have an interest in by the
mere virtue of being wikipedians.

Caveat lector: Similar to all experiences and opinions expressed here, my
own commentary on these issues is naturally and unavoidably influenced by my
own personal experiences, views and background, and this is starting to read
like it is going to be a drawn-out treatise as opposed to "brief personal
take", so grab some coffee.

(Just kidding)

I as I started catching up on reading the mailing list messages, I came
across what Majorly wrote on his experience in Egypt. I was not surprised at
the "only negative" experience described, as I am aware of where it comes
from, I acknowledge many of the unfortunate situations that conspired to
construct such a negative experience (which definitely saddens me as a
native of Egypt), and surely understand that the extent to which we can step
outside our personal "comfort zones" - formed by our own cultures,
communities and environments – is liable to a very wide spectrum of
variation. However, what I have difficulty coming to terms with - and I do
believe some would concur given the majority of opinions expressed here- is
how some would be so absolutist in their conclusions in such a way to
express things with such finality (to which they are entitled to in every
way of course, but that is not the point). For example, Majorly has made up
his mind that he "never want[s] to go to Egypt again, nor the next
Wikimania", he adds that "there is no way I'd consider going to Buenos
Aires". Wow.

Now, before the point I am attempting to get across gets misinterpreted, let
me get this out of the way: It's a free world! (well, some of it, at least).
Where Majorly – and others – decide to go or not go is entirely their own
business. Nevertheless, since we (by "we" I mean people who have at least a
somewhat expanded understanding of the general notion of "openness", and
given the context of our general collective interests being in the realm of
freedom of knowledge, information and expression) are sharing experiences
and views, and then expressing opinions on such experiences and views, I
feel compelled to share how I feel about such a sentiment.

I have been fortunate enough to do a fair share of continent-hopping over
the course of the past few years, and I am glad I was able to see a pretty
good chunk of the world at a relatively young age. I am not going to wax
lyrical on the merits and virtues of travel, as chances are that many or
most of you are already avid travelers. What I would like to emphasize,
however, is the one thing that fascinates me most about going somewhere new:
the different. I say the "different" minus any value judgment which we
inevitably, oftentimes validly and sometimes inaccurately make consciously
or unconscionably on what is, or what initially appears to be, alien to us,
because I do think that the different – be it positive or negative - holds
intrinsic value insofar as it can add to (or change) us as individuals, and
the subsequent aggregate – and hopefully positive - effect on our
understanding of others.

What you make of this value is up to you, but to me it is often a form of
incremental personal enlightenment, on a very small level, that must be
valued and embraced, rather than shunned and avoided. We, as wikipedians and
self-proclaimed "advocates of openness", took up a slightly larger share of
an oft-discussed but frequently practically abandoned global responsibility
to value and promote diversity, cultural awareness and sensitivity, and
receptivity to the new and different even if it means that we have to
forsake – for even the shortest of times – our respective comfort zones.
What I took the liberty to very generically term as "openness" here has
multiple, varied but still connected and related definitions. To me, it can
border on the hypocritical to claim that I am an advocate of open knowledge
if I am myself not open or receptive to a different culture that might
starkly contrast to my own.

Those of you in the "First world" are living where innovation, access and
decent standards of living are already existent, and most politicians are
already doing a pretty good job of messing up the world, so what openness do
you speak of if cultural bridges are not built at the grassroots level? Why
would we let our personal biases, ethnocentrism and fears of the different
or uncomfortable cloud our visions of amazing opportunities for the
promotion of potential platforms of global understanding? You can edit and
read wikipedia all you like, you can be an open knowledge activist, or an
arm chair promoter of openness, but if you shy away from going out and
bumping your head against another culture/people/environment, dealing with,
absorbing and learning from whatever is different in the process, then you
should ask yourself if whatever you are doing is really meaningful. It is
very simple really, you either go or you don't, but you will never really
know unless you go. The way I see it, talk all you like about promotion of
openness, freedom and access in conferences in the "First World", but if
you're serious about it, go where it really matters now, go to the
South/Third World/developing world...whatever you would like to call it. If
you feel that uncomfortable with it, that is understandable and you should
stay home or go somewhere similar to home, just don't call yourself and
advocate of openness. To you, it is probably just it's just a hobby :),
which is still fine by me.

Chaos, unpredictability, poor hygiene are constants when you travel in
developing countries. Dishonest people, dangerous areas and general
travel-related risks are constants anywhere you travel. Degrees of these
hazards vary, but if you can't deal with it, stay home. It is that simple.
It is just unfortunate, though, that you are going to miss quiet a lot in
what little time you've got on this Earth.

I said I tend to write more than I originally intended to and I did just
that, but I also did forewarn :), and apologies if I digressed or lacked
clarity, but I do hope I was able to get my thoughts across.


Cheers,

Hani Morsi

Hani Morsi wrote:
[a lot of things]

I completely agree with your whole email and applaud to it!

But I have to quote this passage, as I think it's the essence of this
message:
>
> What you make of this value is up to you, but to me it is often a form
> of incremental personal enlightenment, on a very small level, that
> must be valued and embraced, rather than shunned and avoided. We, as
> wikipedians and self-proclaimed "advocates of openness", took up a
> slightly larger share of an oft-discussed but frequently practically
> abandoned global responsibility to value and promote diversity,
> cultural awareness and sensitivity, and receptivity to the new and
> different even if it means that we have to forsake – for even the
> shortest of times – our respective comfort zones. What I took the
> liberty to very generically term as "openness" here has multiple,
> varied but still connected and related definitions. To me, it can
> border on the hypocritical to claim that I am an advocate of open
> knowledge if I am myself not open or receptive to a different culture
> that might starkly contrast to my own.
>
Just to briefly add my two piasters to the table:
I was, too, ripped off several times by several people, like most of the
visitors at one point or another. We all experienced the chaotic
Egyptian traffic. There were some other minor inconveniences, but if I
sum it all up, I don't mind them. After the conference, I traveled a lot
with some Wikimedians; we visited the pyramids of Giza, I rode a camel,
we saw the way the people in Cairo and Alex really live (outside of the
travelers' paths), we went to Luxor and saw wonders... All in all, I
think this was one of my best trips: seeing and experiencing the best
and the worst of a country makes you really appreciate it. And, at least
in my book, the good things pretty much outweigh the bad things. And I'm
sure most people would agree.

But we're talking about cultures and geography. The conference itself
was done very well, IMHO, and it was more or less as good as the last
years'. I sure hope I'll be able to attend the next one (although I wish
the conference be set as early in August as possible).

Cheers,
Filip

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On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Filip Maljkovic <dungodung@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to briefly add my two piasters to the table:
> I was, too, ripped off several times by several people, like most of the
> visitors at one point or another. We all experienced the chaotic
> Egyptian traffic. There were some other minor inconveniences, but if I
> sum it all up, I don't mind them. After the conference, I traveled a lot
> with some Wikimedians; we visited the pyramids of Giza, I rode a camel,
> we saw the way the people in Cairo and Alex really live (outside of the
> travelers' paths), we went to Luxor and saw wonders... All in all, I
> think this was one of my best trips: seeing and experiencing the best
> and the worst of a country makes you really appreciate it. And, at least
> in my book, the good things pretty much outweigh the bad things. And I'm
> sure most people would agree.

Indeed, and in case I wasn't clear in my previous e-mail (actually,
when I wrote it I was afraid I was sounding too defensive of Egypt,
and tried to tone it down), my arrival and stay in the country was
just lovely. I experienced things not seen in the U.S. and apparently
a severe annoyance to some, but—and this is what I was really trying
to get at—I really wasn't bothered by them. For sure, the things I
saw and did were well worth the sweltering heat and occasional
inconvenience, and I echo Filip wholeheartedly.

One thing I always kept in mind was that the American twenty in my
pocket was more than a day's wage, which made it hard to get mad about
being overcharged L.E. 5 for cab fare. (At one point, I was
chastizing Phoebe for giving a cab driver L.E. 10 for the ride down
the corniche from our hotel, at least double the going rate—"it's a
buck," she said, "and it'll make him really happy." It dawned on me
that in the U.S. I tip snotty waitresses more for less.)

> But we're talking about cultures and geography. The conference itself
> was done very well, IMHO, and it was more or less as good as the last
> years'. I sure hope I'll be able to attend the next one (although I wish
> the conference be set as early in August as possible).

You're right; the organizing team certainly couldn't do anything about
Egyptian culture if they wanted to. I can pick nits, but as far as
actually pulling off a conference goes, they did superbly.

Austin
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On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 20:09, Hani Morsi <hani.morsi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Those of you in the "First world" are living where innovation, access and
> decent standards of living are already existent, and most politicians are
> already doing a pretty good job of messing up the world, so what openness do
> you speak of if cultural bridges are not built at the grassroots level? Why
> would we let our personal biases, ethnocentrism and fears of the different
> or uncomfortable cloud our visions of amazing opportunities for the
> promotion of potential platforms of global understanding? You can edit and
> read wikipedia all you like, you can be an open knowledge activist, or an
> arm chair promoter of openness, but if you shy away from going out and
> bumping your head against another culture/people/environment, dealing with,
> absorbing and learning from whatever is different in the process, then you
> should ask yourself if whatever you are doing is really meaningful. It is
> very simple really, you either go or you don't, but you will never really
> know unless you go. The way I see it, talk all you like about promotion of
> openness, freedom and access in conferences in the "First World", but if
> you're serious about it, go where it really matters now, go to the
> South/Third World/developing world...whatever you would like to call it. If
> you feel that uncomfortable with it, that is understandable and you should
> stay home or go somewhere similar to home, just don't call yourself and
> advocate of openness. To you, it is probably just it's just a hobby :),
> which is still fine by me.

I would like to contest this attitude that dedication to the various
ideals we all hold as Wikimedians is only serious if people are
willing to travel in the way you describe. Sure, there is a lot to be
gained from such exposure, and I don't deny it. But not everyone is as
brave as we might like, and for some such a trip is a lot more
difficult than it is for others. I don't know if I could do it. But
that doesn't mean that I am any less devoted than people who have been
to the ideals of freedom that we are aiming to spread. I'm just not as
good at travelling as they are :-)

Sean

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On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 15:50, Sean Whitton <sean@silentflame.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 20:09, Hani Morsi <hani.morsi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Those of you in the "First world" are living where innovation, access and
>> decent standards of living are already existent, and most politicians are
>> already doing a pretty good job of messing up the world, so what openness do
>> you speak of if cultural bridges are not built at the grassroots level? Why
>> would we let our personal biases, ethnocentrism and fears of the different
>> or uncomfortable cloud our visions of amazing opportunities for the
>> promotion of potential platforms of global understanding? You can edit and
>> read wikipedia all you like, you can be an open knowledge activist, or an
>> arm chair promoter of openness, but if you shy away from going out and
>> bumping your head against another culture/people/environment, dealing with,
>> absorbing and learning from whatever is different in the process, then you
>> should ask yourself if whatever you are doing is really meaningful. It is
>> very simple really, you either go or you don't, but you will never really
>> know unless you go. The way I see it, talk all you like about promotion of
>> openness, freedom and access in conferences in the "First World", but if
>> you're serious about it, go where it really matters now, go to the
>> South/Third World/developing world...whatever you would like to call it. If
>> you feel that uncomfortable with it, that is understandable and you should
>> stay home or go somewhere similar to home, just don't call yourself and
>> advocate of openness. To you, it is probably just it's just a hobby :),
>> which is still fine by me.
>
> I would like to contest this attitude that dedication to the various
> ideals we all hold as Wikimedians is only serious if people are
> willing to travel in the way you describe. Sure, there is a lot to be
> gained from such exposure, and I don't deny it. But not everyone is as
> brave as we might like, and for some such a trip is a lot more
> difficult than it is for others. I don't know if I could do it. But
> that doesn't mean that I am any less devoted than people who have been
> to the ideals of freedom that we are aiming to spread. I'm just not as
> good at travelling as they are :-)


I think that there is truth in both visions, actually. Being a
seasoned traveler myself, in all kinds of settings (from sleeping
under a tarp in a wild canyon far away from civilization to staying in
5 stars hotels), I can understand both Majorly's and Hani's vision of
"travelling" and meeting the world and I believe I understand both
their reactions.

I agree with you Sean, though, that there is no such strong relation
between being "open" in the sense of our projects and being "open" to
travel around the world and attend a conference. They are simply two
different things.

What I think was the point here, is not so much *where* Wikimania was,
but rather what expectations were formed as to how the Wikimania
team(s) could help the attendees.

To some extent, I believe those expectations were simply wrong. I
believe that some attendees were simply expecting too much from a
conference organizing team to start with. A conference, wiki or not,
is not a travelling agency that takes care of everything and makes
sure you're accompanied all day long in your ventures. Mind you, I
also believe that we (the Wikimania team) probably raised expectations
a bit too much, pressured by a somewhat controversed welcome of
Wikimania in Egypt in the first place, as well as the "wiki" spirit of
collaboration. Sometimes, you have to learn to say "sorry, we can't"
and that's something we did not do well.

I have read everyone's comments with interest, whether negative or
positive, and my conclusion is that Wikimania, as any other travel
destination/conference/event-some-place-other-than-home will never
(ever) satisfy everyone, and it is good so. Because diversity does not
only mean "people from everywhere with different backgrounds in a
different place", it also means "people with different life
experiences and opinions". Frankly, I would be very sad if Wikimania
ever prompted any kind of NPOV at the end of it, for lack of strong
feelings and opinions about it. I'd say that's where we've started to
fail.

So thank you all for your comments, and know that adventure can be
around your street corner. Also.

Cheers,

Delphine

--
~notafish

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Your personal emails
will get lost.
Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

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Dear Majorly and all,

>
> I just signed up to the list to drop a few lines to the long thread of
> emails entitled: Re:Comments :). I believe I do not have much to say after
> all that was said, I can just clarify few points, but first: Majorly, I am
> sorry to hear that your experience in the country that hosted Wikimania 2008
> was that harsh, and I wish you a pleasant experience in the future
> Wikimanias. I wish the team could have made it better to you by any means,
> but I am afraid we have no control over Egyptian culture! I am sorry. Hint:
> The families that you used to see near by BA premises; they do not live or
> reside there and they are not homeless. They are patients and patients
> families that make it early to the public hospital that is next doors to the
> library. They are mostly from country side, travel long miles to reach their
> early, and they are too many that mostly the hospital does not occupy them.
> A local debate has long been taking place on the relocation of the hospital,
> but after all they are patients, they are harmless, and this is mostly how
> things are in our side of the world..
>
> On Wi-Fi: I am sorry if anyone had problems with getting connected, this is
> mostly for the uneven distribution of users; the access point of B1 was
> mostly occupied, while the one on entrance level and the level before had
> room for plenty of IPs. Relocating could have helped..I am sorry if that was
> not made clear on site, and I apologize and am sorry if anyone suffered with
> getting connected.
>
> Effeietsanders: Press Conference video is available along with other
> sessions here<http://www.bibalex.org/isis/Frontend/archive/Archive_Movie.aspx>
>
> Wishing Patricio and his team all best of luck with Wikimania2009..
>
> Best Regards,
> Moushira
>
>
>

Dear Moushira and all,

With reference to Moushira's note below, I believe that you and your team really did a wonderful job. Believe me, I have been to four other conferences this last year--2 of them were international--and, in my view, the Wikimania one was better than the four of them in terms of organization, among other things. I and other presenters were not even able to access the wireless network except rarely in one of these. So, good job, and I am sure that those Wikipedians who have seen the Pyramids, Sphinx, and temples in Luxor, etc. have very much enjoyed them. For me, it was a great venue where I met many people who are working on Arabic open source stuff, translation, etc. whom I could never have met elsewhere.

Cheers,

--Muhammad

>I just signed up to the list to drop a few lines to the long thread of
> emails entitled: Re:Comments :). I believe I do not have much to say after
> all that was said, I can just clarify few points, but first: Majorly, I am
> sorry to hear that your experience in the country that hosted Wikimania 2008
> was that harsh, and I wish you a pleasant experience in the future
> Wikimanias. I wish the team could have made it better to you by any means,
> but I am afraid we have no control over Egyptian culture! I am sorry. Hint:
> The families that you used to see near by BA premises; they do not live or
> reside there and they are not homeless. They are patients and patients
> families that make it early to the public hospital that is next doors to the
> library. They are mostly from country side, travel long miles to reach their
> early, and they are too many that mostly the hospital does not occupy them.
> A local debate has long been taking place on the relocation of the hospital,
> but after all they are patients, they are harmless, and this is mostly how
> things are in our side of the world..
>
> On Wi-Fi: I am sorry if anyone had problems with getting connected, this is
> mostly for the uneven distribution of users; the access point of B1 was
> mostly occupied, while the one on entrance level and the level before had
> room for plenty of IPs. Relocating could have helped..I am sorry if that was
> not made clear on site, and I apologize and am sorry if anyone suffered with
> getting connected.
>
> Effeietsanders: Press Conference video is available along with other
> sessions here<http://www.bibalex.org/isis/Frontend/archive/Archive_Movie.aspx>
>
> Wishing Patricio and his team all best of luck with Wikimania2009..
>
> Best Regards,
> Moushira
>

--
Muhammad Abdul-Mageed,
PhD Student
Dept. of Linguistics,
Indiana University, Bloomington,
USA
www.mumageed.blogspot.com





> ******************************************




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