Mailing List Archive

I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were
all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin as
a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board needs
to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have to
fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off
me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good
price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free
shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no
profit in that.



While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the fact
that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at
terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication
regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to
Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to the
other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on
the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get
there.



There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal
one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around
3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately
some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local
Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus
turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there were
around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into
taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the
precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us
were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo
to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip.
There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were
picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a
half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in
Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation –
in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you’ve been
up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep,
although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter
fiction.



The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I
had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to be
perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library
itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere, the
problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If
you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move around
all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there
were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me
indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It
probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their
laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse
Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The
signal didn’t reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were
one of the conference sponsors.



The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as
Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with
airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips.





Brian McNeil







-----Original Message-----
From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments



It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.


First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards to
information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind
of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival
etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed. The
scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm
sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked.

The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to
pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any information
out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no
answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for
information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki. I
spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever
receive this important information.

The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign up
- just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention
where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the list,
even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when my
flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle?

On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours waiting
at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after
meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the
shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was put
in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in.

After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the
conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was a
lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this
applies to all three days).

There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat
around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this
respect - the social areas were basically non existent.

On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again, still
not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard, no
sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets (luckily
I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be left
out).

The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party was
done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I
had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was
probably the best I had the entire time I was there.

I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo airport,
but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1, after
being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get
there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest policeman"
who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave,
even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed my
arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life.
It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like
that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and
rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous.

I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes,
the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference was
enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the
worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being
killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no apparent
reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers
following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street the
BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is.

I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
similar to here.

I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)

Hey, Al, Brian,

thanks for your comments. Some of them might be useful for next year,
most of them (well, as far as local problems such as taxi drivers are
concerned) unfortunately less, so that we have to reinvent what the
local problems will be in Buenos Aires and who knows where wikimania
will bring us.

I hope that especially everybody would post his/her comments regarding
things we can fix in the coming years, so that Wikimania can actually
get improved, I think everybody would be loving that :) . I myself am
for instance very interested in comments regarding the program,
regarding the number of lectures vs the number of
discussions/workshops, regarding the scientific sessions (which I
unfortunately have not been able to attend myself), the quality of the
keynote and invited speakers and the number of out-of-community
speakers. (such as Eric Johnson and the UNU people) What about the
staff presentations, how was the interaction with the local team, if
you had a problem, were youhelped as far as reasonably could be
expected etc.

Please note that there *will* be a shrt survey soon about Wikimania,
but extensive elaboration on what can be improved would be highly
welcomed by the Wikimania 2009 organizing team I would guess.

kind regards,

Lodewijk

2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were
> all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin as
> a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board needs
> to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have to
> fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off
> me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good
> price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free
> shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no
> profit in that.
>
>
>
> While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the fact
> that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at
> terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication
> regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to
> Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to the
> other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on
> the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get
> there.
>
>
>
> There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal
> one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around
> 3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately
> some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local
> Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus
> turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there were
> around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into
> taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the
> precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us
> were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo
> to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip.
> There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were
> picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a
> half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in
> Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation –
> in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you've been
> up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep,
> although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter
> fiction.
>
>
>
> The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I
> had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to be
> perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library
> itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere, the
> problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If
> you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move around
> all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there
> were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me
> indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It
> probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their
> laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse
> Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The
> signal didn't reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were
> one of the conference sponsors.
>
>
>
> The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as
> Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with
> airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips.
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
> Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>
>
>
> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
>
>
> First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards to
> information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind
> of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival
> etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed. The
> scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm
> sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked.
>
> The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to
> pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any information
> out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no
> answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for
> information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki. I
> spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever
> receive this important information.
>
> The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign up
> - just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention
> where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the list,
> even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when my
> flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle?
>
> On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours waiting
> at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after
> meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the
> shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was put
> in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in.
>
> After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the
> conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was a
> lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this
> applies to all three days).
>
> There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat
> around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this
> respect - the social areas were basically non existent.
>
> On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again, still
> not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard, no
> sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets (luckily
> I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be left
> out).
>
> The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party was
> done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I
> had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was
> probably the best I had the entire time I was there.
>
> I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo airport,
> but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1, after
> being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get
> there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest policeman"
> who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave,
> even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed my
> arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life.
> It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like
> that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and
> rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous.
>
> I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes,
> the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference was
> enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the
> worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being
> killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no apparent
> reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers
> following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street the
> BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is.
>
> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
> similar to here.
>
> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>
> --
> Al Tally
> (User:Majorly)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I agree with Effe iets anders, and will appreciate for comments on
what we Wikimania organizers will be able to improve.

Not die arme Dachlosen (they are definitely in all past Wikimania
cities, not only in Alex, but in also Frankfurt am Main, etc.), not
annoying greedy Egyptian people (for those purpose you are welcome to
complain Egyptian Tourist policemen you could get anywhere in that
country) etc. I agree those are problems and not made me happy either,
but complaints on foundation-l won't help them to improve. I could
have complained the worst hotel I've ever stayed but I won't, since I
know it is not the right place (but if you have a plan to go to Sharm
el Shake, please drop me a note!)

Thanks for your pointing out,　Majorly, lack of sitting places for
lunch and poor coordinated shuttle bus ideas. Thank you, Brian, for
wi-fi systems. I either wasn't too much happy with some of these. I
personally feel sorry we have no fixed social place in the venue and
felt uncomfortable that soft drink service in the venue was not always
available. We need to clear the details we require for those things I
think, what the social place is, how it is organized, what level of
wi-fi system we require etc. Again thanks for your input and pointing
out details what didn't satisfy you. I am sure convinced the
organizers for WM2009 and bidding teams for WM2010 will take your
comments seriously and try to elaborate their organizing plans.

But the whole situation outside of the venue is I think beyond our
hands. We as jury for having selecting 2007 venue considered the
general situation of hosting country and city, but it was not too much
weighed. If we stick on the current criteria, it won't affect too much
our selection, I presume. We welcome any suggestions, however,
including the change of weighing, but personally I am not sure if the
general accommodation and people's "westernization" should be our
major criterion to select the venue regarding our mission to spread
the knowledge to every single person on this globe.

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:05 AM, effe iets anders
<effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, Al, Brian,
>
> thanks for your comments. Some of them might be useful for next year,
> most of them (well, as far as local problems such as taxi drivers are
> concerned) unfortunately less, so that we have to reinvent what the
> local problems will be in Buenos Aires and who knows where wikimania
> will bring us.
>
> I hope that especially everybody would post his/her comments regarding
> things we can fix in the coming years, so that Wikimania can actually
> get improved, I think everybody would be loving that :) . I myself am
> for instance very interested in comments regarding the program,
> regarding the number of lectures vs the number of
> discussions/workshops, regarding the scientific sessions (which I
> unfortunately have not been able to attend myself), the quality of the
> keynote and invited speakers and the number of out-of-community
> speakers. (such as Eric Johnson and the UNU people) What about the
> staff presentations, how was the interaction with the local team, if
> you had a problem, were youhelped as far as reasonably could be
> expected etc.
>
> Please note that there *will* be a shrt survey soon about Wikimania,
> but extensive elaboration on what can be improved would be highly
> welcomed by the Wikimania 2009 organizing team I would guess.
>
> kind regards,
>
> Lodewijk
>
> 2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
>> I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were
>> all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin as
>> a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board needs
>> to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have to
>> fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off
>> me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good
>> price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free
>> shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no
>> profit in that.
>>
>>
>>
>> While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the fact
>> that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at
>> terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication
>> regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to
>> Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to the
>> other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on
>> the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>> There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal
>> one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around
>> 3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately
>> some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local
>> Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus
>> turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there were
>> around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into
>> taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the
>> precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us
>> were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo
>> to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip.
>> There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were
>> picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a
>> half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in
>> Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation –
>> in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you've been
>> up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep,
>> although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter
>> fiction.
>>
>>
>>
>> The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I
>> had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to be
>> perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library
>> itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere, the
>> problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If
>> you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move around
>> all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there
>> were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me
>> indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It
>> probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their
>> laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse
>> Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The
>> signal didn't reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were
>> one of the conference sponsors.
>>
>>
>>
>> The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as
>> Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with
>> airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian McNeil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
>> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
>> Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18
>> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
>> Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>>
>>
>>
>> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
>> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
>> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
>>
>>
>> First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards to
>> information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind
>> of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival
>> etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed. The
>> scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm
>> sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked.
>>
>> The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to
>> pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any information
>> out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no
>> answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for
>> information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki. I
>> spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever
>> receive this important information.
>>
>> The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign up
>> - just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention
>> where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the list,
>> even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when my
>> flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle?
>>
>> On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours waiting
>> at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after
>> meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the
>> shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was put
>> in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in.
>>
>> After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the
>> conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was a
>> lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this
>> applies to all three days).
>>
>> There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat
>> around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this
>> respect - the social areas were basically non existent.
>>
>> On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again, still
>> not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard, no
>> sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets (luckily
>> I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be left
>> out).
>>
>> The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party was
>> done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I
>> had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was
>> probably the best I had the entire time I was there.
>>
>> I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo airport,
>> but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1, after
>> being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get
>> there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest policeman"
>> who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave,
>> even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed my
>> arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life.
>> It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like
>> that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and
>> rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous.
>>
>> I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes,
>> the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference was
>> enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the
>> worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being
>> killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no apparent
>> reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers
>> following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street the
>> BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is.
>>
>> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
>> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
>> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
>> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
>> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
>> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
>> similar to here.
>>
>> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
>> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
>> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>>
>> --
>> Al Tally
>> (User:Majorly)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Once there, there was no fault to pick with the local Wikimedians. They were
friendly, courteous, and helpful.

The keynote given by the suit from IBM was the biggest waste of time, and I
wish I'd just had a long lie. This was basically a rehash of some
presentation for businessmen and not at all appropriate for the audience.

I was very glad I attended the presentation by Eric Johnson, his talk on use
of MediaWiki within U.S. government was most interesting. I covered that on
Wikinews, and when all the presentations are up in more accessible formats
it is one I would recommend seeking out.

I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted is
that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who have
visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there will
be attempts to take advantage of you.


Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of effe iets
anders
Sent: 28 July 2008 20:06
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments

Hey, Al, Brian,

thanks for your comments. Some of them might be useful for next year,
most of them (well, as far as local problems such as taxi drivers are
concerned) unfortunately less, so that we have to reinvent what the
local problems will be in Buenos Aires and who knows where wikimania
will bring us.

I hope that especially everybody would post his/her comments regarding
things we can fix in the coming years, so that Wikimania can actually
get improved, I think everybody would be loving that :) . I myself am
for instance very interested in comments regarding the program,
regarding the number of lectures vs the number of
discussions/workshops, regarding the scientific sessions (which I
unfortunately have not been able to attend myself), the quality of the
keynote and invited speakers and the number of out-of-community
speakers. (such as Eric Johnson and the UNU people) What about the
staff presentations, how was the interaction with the local team, if
you had a problem, were youhelped as far as reasonably could be
expected etc.

Please note that there *will* be a shrt survey soon about Wikimania,
but extensive elaboration on what can be improved would be highly
welcomed by the Wikimania 2009 organizing team I would guess.

kind regards,

Lodewijk

2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were
> all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin
as
> a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board
needs
> to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have
to
> fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off
> me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good
> price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free
> shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no
> profit in that.
>
>
>
> While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the
fact
> that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at
> terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication
> regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to
> Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to
the
> other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on
> the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get
> there.
>
>
>
> There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal
> one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around
> 3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately
> some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local
> Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus
> turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there
were
> around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into
> taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the
> precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us
> were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo
> to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip.
> There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were
> picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a
> half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in
> Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation
–
> in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you've
been
> up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep,
> although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter
> fiction.
>
>
>
> The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I
> had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to
be
> perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library
> itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere,
the
> problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If
> you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move
around
> all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there
> were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me
> indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It
> probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their
> laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse
> Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The
> signal didn't reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were
> one of the conference sponsors.
>
>
>
> The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as
> Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with
> airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips.
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
> Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>
>
>
> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference,
and
> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
>
>
> First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards
to
> information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind
> of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival
> etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed.
The
> scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm
> sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked.
>
> The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to
> pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any
information
> out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no
> answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for
> information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki.
I
> spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever
> receive this important information.
>
> The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign
up
> - just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention
> where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the
list,
> even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when
my
> flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle?
>
> On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours
waiting
> at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after
> meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the
> shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was
put
> in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in.
>
> After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the
> conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was
a
> lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this
> applies to all three days).
>
> There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat
> around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this
> respect - the social areas were basically non existent.
>
> On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again,
still
> not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard,
no
> sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets
(luckily
> I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be
left
> out).
>
> The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party
was
> done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I
> had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was
> probably the best I had the entire time I was there.
>
> I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo
airport,
> but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1,
after
> being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get
> there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest
policeman"
> who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave,
> even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed
my
> arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life.
> It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like
> that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and
> rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous.
>
> I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes,
> the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference
was
> enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the
> worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being
> killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no
apparent
> reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers
> following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street
the
> BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is.
>
> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor
hygene,
> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
> similar to here.
>
> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others
feel
> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>
> --
> Al Tally
> (User:Majorly)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Just let me correct one thing :) I did not want to say that complaints
about the local situation should not be written (they might be useful
for wikitravel or for future conferences by the local team) but I do
think we should try to seperate them :)

kr, lodewijk

2008/7/28 Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com>:
> I agree with Effe iets anders, and will appreciate for comments on
> what we Wikimania organizers will be able to improve.
>
> Not die arme Dachlosen (they are definitely in all past Wikimania
> cities, not only in Alex, but in also Frankfurt am Main, etc.), not
> annoying greedy Egyptian people (for those purpose you are welcome to
> complain Egyptian Tourist policemen you could get anywhere in that
> country) etc. I agree those are problems and not made me happy either,
> but complaints on foundation-l won't help them to improve. I could
> have complained the worst hotel I've ever stayed but I won't, since I
> know it is not the right place (but if you have a plan to go to Sharm
> el Shake, please drop me a note!)
>
> Thanks for your pointing out,　Majorly, lack of sitting places for
> lunch and poor coordinated shuttle bus ideas. Thank you, Brian, for
> wi-fi systems. I either wasn't too much happy with some of these. I
> personally feel sorry we have no fixed social place in the venue and
> felt uncomfortable that soft drink service in the venue was not always
> available. We need to clear the details we require for those things I
> think, what the social place is, how it is organized, what level of
> wi-fi system we require etc. Again thanks for your input and pointing
> out details what didn't satisfy you. I am sure convinced the
> organizers for WM2009 and bidding teams for WM2010 will take your
> comments seriously and try to elaborate their organizing plans.
>
> But the whole situation outside of the venue is I think beyond our
> hands. We as jury for having selecting 2007 venue considered the
> general situation of hosting country and city, but it was not too much
> weighed. If we stick on the current criteria, it won't affect too much
> our selection, I presume. We welcome any suggestions, however,
> including the change of weighing, but personally I am not sure if the
> general accommodation and people's "westernization" should be our
> major criterion to select the venue regarding our mission to spread
> the knowledge to every single person on this globe.
>
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:05 AM, effe iets anders
> <effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey, Al, Brian,
>>
>> thanks for your comments. Some of them might be useful for next year,
>> most of them (well, as far as local problems such as taxi drivers are
>> concerned) unfortunately less, so that we have to reinvent what the
>> local problems will be in Buenos Aires and who knows where wikimania
>> will bring us.
>>
>> I hope that especially everybody would post his/her comments regarding
>> things we can fix in the coming years, so that Wikimania can actually
>> get improved, I think everybody would be loving that :) . I myself am
>> for instance very interested in comments regarding the program,
>> regarding the number of lectures vs the number of
>> discussions/workshops, regarding the scientific sessions (which I
>> unfortunately have not been able to attend myself), the quality of the
>> keynote and invited speakers and the number of out-of-community
>> speakers. (such as Eric Johnson and the UNU people) What about the
>> staff presentations, how was the interaction with the local team, if
>> you had a problem, were youhelped as far as reasonably could be
>> expected etc.
>>
>> Please note that there *will* be a shrt survey soon about Wikimania,
>> but extensive elaboration on what can be improved would be highly
>> welcomed by the Wikimania 2009 organizing team I would guess.
>>
>> kind regards,
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> 2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
>>> I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were
>>> all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin as
>>> a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board needs
>>> to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have to
>>> fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off
>>> me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good
>>> price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free
>>> shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no
>>> profit in that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the fact
>>> that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at
>>> terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication
>>> regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to
>>> Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to the
>>> other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on
>>> the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get
>>> there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal
>>> one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around
>>> 3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately
>>> some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local
>>> Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus
>>> turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there were
>>> around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into
>>> taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the
>>> precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us
>>> were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo
>>> to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip.
>>> There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were
>>> picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a
>>> half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in
>>> Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation –
>>> in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you've been
>>> up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep,
>>> although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter
>>> fiction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I
>>> had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to be
>>> perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library
>>> itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere, the
>>> problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If
>>> you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move around
>>> all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there
>>> were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me
>>> indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It
>>> probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their
>>> laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse
>>> Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The
>>> signal didn't reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were
>>> one of the conference sponsors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as
>>> Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with
>>> airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian McNeil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
>>> Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18
>>> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
>>> Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
>>> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
>>> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
>>>
>>>
>>> First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards to
>>> information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind
>>> of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival
>>> etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed. The
>>> scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm
>>> sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked.
>>>
>>> The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to
>>> pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any information
>>> out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no
>>> answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for
>>> information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki. I
>>> spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever
>>> receive this important information.
>>>
>>> The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign up
>>> - just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention
>>> where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the list,
>>> even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when my
>>> flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle?
>>>
>>> On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours waiting
>>> at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after
>>> meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the
>>> shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was put
>>> in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in.
>>>
>>> After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the
>>> conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was a
>>> lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this
>>> applies to all three days).
>>>
>>> There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat
>>> around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this
>>> respect - the social areas were basically non existent.
>>>
>>> On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again, still
>>> not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard, no
>>> sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets (luckily
>>> I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be left
>>> out).
>>>
>>> The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party was
>>> done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I
>>> had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was
>>> probably the best I had the entire time I was there.
>>>
>>> I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo airport,
>>> but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1, after
>>> being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get
>>> there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest policeman"
>>> who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave,
>>> even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed my
>>> arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life.
>>> It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like
>>> that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and
>>> rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous.
>>>
>>> I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes,
>>> the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference was
>>> enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the
>>> worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being
>>> killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no apparent
>>> reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers
>>> following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street the
>>> BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is.
>>>
>>> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
>>> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
>>> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
>>> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
>>> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
>>> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
>>> similar to here.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
>>> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
>>> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Al Tally
>>> (User:Majorly)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko
> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted is
> that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who have
> visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there will
> be attempts to take advantage of you.

Yeah. That's called a travel guide.

--valhallasw

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Congratulations, that measured a 0.1 on the sarcasm scale.

I'm 39, on my third passport, and no longer live in the country I was born
and grew up in. If you took all the miles I've flown and stitched them
together you could probably get to the moon and back.

I know what a travel guide is, and I also know how they sugar-coat things so
potential tourists don't run away screaming.


Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Merlijn van
Deen
Sent: 28 July 2008 21:06
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments

2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted
is
> that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who
have
> visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there
will
> be attempts to take advantage of you.

Yeah. That's called a travel guide.

--valhallasw

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Sorry, I'll have to agree with Merlijn here, you sound a bit naive.

I have been cheated too. But, heh, we're tourists, we don't speak
arabic, we have quite a lot of money compared to the people we had to
deal with... you should have expected that !

2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> Congratulations, that measured a 0.1 on the sarcasm scale.
>
> I'm 39, on my third passport, and no longer live in the country I was born
> and grew up in. If you took all the miles I've flown and stitched them
> together you could probably get to the moon and back.
>
> I know what a travel guide is, and I also know how they sugar-coat things so
> potential tourists don't run away screaming.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Merlijn van
> Deen
> Sent: 28 July 2008 21:06
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>
> 2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
>> I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted
> is
>> that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who
> have
>> visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there
> will
>> be attempts to take advantage of you.
>
> Yeah. That's called a travel guide.
>
> --valhallasw
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
Nicolas Dumazet — NicDumZ [ nɪk.d̪ymz ]
pywikipedia & mediawiki
Deuxième année ENSIMAG.
06 03 88 92 29
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I certainly was a very lucky woman, since I was *pampered* in terms of
hosting and travel. So, I did not share your suffering regarding travel
between the two cities.

However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
choose a city where there is an international airport.

With regards to "outside" complaints, yeah, I was also a bit annoyed by
the persistence of some people; yeah, I was cheated with regards of
money several times (but I expected such thing in Egypt). I was also
harassed in an unexpected fashion the last day, and I did not appreciate
that at all. Airco was an issue two nights in a row and there was no
wifi in hotel (but eh, that's Africa). And yeah, information was often
missing.
I also regret we were all hosted in many different places, which did not
help finding each other.

In terms of "inside" complaints, my biggest one would go to the rather
unsufficient "community space" and "food/drinks".
People were delocalized on several levels so it was very difficult to
find each other. Unsufficient room to sit down for lunch. Worse for me:
lunch separated for "vip" and "regular". That was a killer for social
interactions, and vips could not go to "lunch meeting" with their lunch
box since they had no lunch box.
I naturally know why this was done this way. But I still find that a bad
idea. I do not think we should artificially separate "vips" and
"regulars". Or at least, we should be able to mix.
In previous years, the press conf was followed by a lunch in the room.
Not this year. Very unfortunate, because for me, it meant... no lunch at
all. By the time I got out of interviews, the lunch upstairs was closed.
I would suggest sticking to a very light and easy buffet after the press
conference.

Last, in Taipei light snacks and drinks were available all day long.
This year, only tea and coffee and a few cookies, at fixed times. Often,
sessions were late, so by the time one got out of the room, coffee break
was over. Only once did I succeed to get an out-of-schedule coffee (the
day I missed the coffee in morning, then missed the lunch, then missed
the coffee break in the afternoon), but it was really tough. Until I
found the source of softdrink for money, I had to drink most of my
liquid input during the day from the tap. A miracle I was not sick.
Still, the coffee guys were here all the time, but most of the time
simply not serving. It escapes me entirely why coffee, tea and bottle
water were not served freely during the entire event. Next year, we
should try to be sponsored by Starbucks, as we were by CocaCola in
Boston (I am SUPER serious here. We'll save huge amount of time not
running to the local starbuck...).

Beside this, I found all the local volunteers super useful, helpful, and
smiling. A real pleasure. The party was great ! I was also very pleased
by the presentation of wiki use by US gov, and really appreciated the
presentation about the flaggued revisions from Philip.
Rooms were confortable and of the right size (though, yeah, missing
plugs), there was all the equipement for the video record, and security
was not too heavy ;-)
I did not miss the tech sessions... however, I missed Mark.


Every Wikimania has its "very cool" and "not so good" sides. As far as I
am concerned, the "very cool" have always outweighted the "not so good".

What made me the saddest this year were all the people being sick during
the event. I think more warning regarding food and water could have been
helpful. What made me the happiest was to see that the outreach was a
success.

A question for the future though will be as to whether Wikimania will
focus on the "outreach" or on the "community gathering".

ant

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To add to what Florence said, the opening day's press conference was one of
the most professionally organised parts of the event. All the stops were
pulled out to present the WMF to the press as an established and serious
body.

The room used for the press conference should likely have been hijacked for
as many sessions as could have been fitted in it. Every desk had its own
power point and an RJ45 cable to get connected with. There was a microphone
with a push to talk button, and a pair of headphones. The headphones allowed
for simultaneous translation from English to Arabic, and vice versa.

The regional press were there in force, you could not have fitted another TV
camera into the back row. If I recall correctly, Florence commented in her
presentation later in the conference that some of the TV coverage prompted
people to turn up at the conference's second and third days to find out
more.

Unfortunately, there was quite a bit of the standard fare in the Q&A - the
tired old "academics don't trust Wikipedia", and the one Jimmy was quick to
step on - conflating the WMF with Wikia. I can't comment on the interviews
after the main press conference, unlike Florence I got some lunch on the
first day. The mystery pasta dish was delicious, and I looked for it in vain
the remaining two days of the conference.


Brian McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Florence
Devouard
Sent: 29 July 2008 00:14
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments

I certainly was a very lucky woman, since I was *pampered* in terms of
hosting and travel. So, I did not share your suffering regarding travel
between the two cities.

However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
choose a city where there is an international airport.

With regards to "outside" complaints, yeah, I was also a bit annoyed by
the persistence of some people; yeah, I was cheated with regards of
money several times (but I expected such thing in Egypt). I was also
harassed in an unexpected fashion the last day, and I did not appreciate
that at all. Airco was an issue two nights in a row and there was no
wifi in hotel (but eh, that's Africa). And yeah, information was often
missing.
I also regret we were all hosted in many different places, which did not
help finding each other.

In terms of "inside" complaints, my biggest one would go to the rather
unsufficient "community space" and "food/drinks".
People were delocalized on several levels so it was very difficult to
find each other. Unsufficient room to sit down for lunch. Worse for me:
lunch separated for "vip" and "regular". That was a killer for social
interactions, and vips could not go to "lunch meeting" with their lunch
box since they had no lunch box.
I naturally know why this was done this way. But I still find that a bad
idea. I do not think we should artificially separate "vips" and
"regulars". Or at least, we should be able to mix.
In previous years, the press conf was followed by a lunch in the room.
Not this year. Very unfortunate, because for me, it meant... no lunch at
all. By the time I got out of interviews, the lunch upstairs was closed.
I would suggest sticking to a very light and easy buffet after the press
conference.

Last, in Taipei light snacks and drinks were available all day long.
This year, only tea and coffee and a few cookies, at fixed times. Often,
sessions were late, so by the time one got out of the room, coffee break
was over. Only once did I succeed to get an out-of-schedule coffee (the
day I missed the coffee in morning, then missed the lunch, then missed
the coffee break in the afternoon), but it was really tough. Until I
found the source of softdrink for money, I had to drink most of my
liquid input during the day from the tap. A miracle I was not sick.
Still, the coffee guys were here all the time, but most of the time
simply not serving. It escapes me entirely why coffee, tea and bottle
water were not served freely during the entire event. Next year, we
should try to be sponsored by Starbucks, as we were by CocaCola in
Boston (I am SUPER serious here. We'll save huge amount of time not
running to the local starbuck...).

Beside this, I found all the local volunteers super useful, helpful, and
smiling. A real pleasure. The party was great ! I was also very pleased
by the presentation of wiki use by US gov, and really appreciated the
presentation about the flaggued revisions from Philip.
Rooms were confortable and of the right size (though, yeah, missing
plugs), there was all the equipement for the video record, and security
was not too heavy ;-)
I did not miss the tech sessions... however, I missed Mark.


Every Wikimania has its "very cool" and "not so good" sides. As far as I
am concerned, the "very cool" have always outweighted the "not so good".

What made me the saddest this year were all the people being sick during
the event. I think more warning regarding food and water could have been
helpful. What made me the happiest was to see that the outreach was a
success.

A question for the future though will be as to whether Wikimania will
focus on the "outreach" or on the "community gathering".

ant

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2008/7/28 Al Tally <majorly.wiki@googlemail.com>:
> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
[...]
> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
> similar to here.
>
> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.

Dear friends:

I'm happy to see that this thread turned into a more constructive
discussion about things we can do better in next wikimanias. I can't
imagine how could the egyptian team change the local taxi drivers'
culture just for our comfort.

While we (in Argentina) are taking notes on every comment about things
to do and things to improve, I'd like to say a few words, about some
concepts that didn't sound well to me.

I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the
taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport
media would be below european standars -although the train service
from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be
terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends,
to the South.

And I was very happy not only for the great job and friendship of the
egyptian team, not only for an outstanding conference venue, but also
because when we say: "a world in which every human being..." we are
also talking about this people. We are talking *most of all* about
this people.

Of course, nobody is forced to go anywhere if is going to be
uncomfortable. But you can't go to Egypt (or to South America) and
complain because you didn't find the services of a Nordic country.

We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos
Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and
perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars
(please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you
walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families
of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.

So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my
words sound bitter: I just couldn't help.

Patricio

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On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Patricio Lorente
<patricio.lorente@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/7/28 Al Tally <majorly.wiki@googlemail.com>:
>> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
>> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
>> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
> [...]
>> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
>> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
>> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
>> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
>> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
>> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
>> similar to here.
>>
>> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
>> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
>> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>
> Dear friends:
>
> I'm happy to see that this thread turned into a more constructive
> discussion about things we can do better in next wikimanias. I can't
> imagine how could the egyptian team change the local taxi drivers'
> culture just for our comfort.
>
> While we (in Argentina) are taking notes on every comment about things
> to do and things to improve, I'd like to say a few words, about some
> concepts that didn't sound well to me.
>
> I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the
> taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport
> media would be below european standars -although the train service
> from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be
> terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends,
> to the South.
>
> And I was very happy not only for the great job and friendship of the
> egyptian team, not only for an outstanding conference venue, but also
> because when we say: "a world in which every human being..." we are
> also talking about this people. We are talking *most of all* about
> this people.
>
> Of course, nobody is forced to go anywhere if is going to be
> uncomfortable. But you can't go to Egypt (or to South America) and
> complain because you didn't find the services of a Nordic country.
>
> We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos
> Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and
> perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars
> (please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you
> walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families
> of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
> able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>
> So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my
> words sound bitter: I just couldn't help.
>
> Patricio


Thank you, Patricio.

-- Phoebe

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Thank you, Patricio. To be fair and honest. I'm looking for getting a
chance to go to B.A. next year.

Back to the Japan, my beloved home country, and the city I've been in
my graduate and marriage day, I found here Osaka is hotter than Cairo
(so definitely much hotter than Alex but I knew it even before my
departure), more humid than Singapore and things cost more than Sharm
el Sheik. I feel comfortable in my apartment though, in every return I
realize there is no perfect place. And almost in every community park
one or two homeless occupy benches during the night. Poor people are
not only in developing countries. I saw them in New York (not sure
about Boston, since I didn't go to downtown), in Taipei (and then he
was completely naked) and in Alex (but I doubt if they were really
homeless - some countries we know "professional beggars" who have
their own home and go to the city for their "business"). And local
people and facilities somehow annoyed me in many ways, as said.

That is the world, but at the same time, I have great days with my
friends both new and old in Alexandria, expectedly as all of you,
also I met many good people and things in many place of Egypt. The
guide who attended me in Luxor was professional and arranged me a
special local tour for visiting local Coptic churches for free, I got
treated by a local beduin at the top of Mt. Sinai (how cozy to have
tea seeing the morning Sinai from the summit, sitting just beneath of
Chapel of S. Trinity), also treated by a local Egyptian family
including yummy spicy stewed eggplant ... and Divine Liturgy at the
Basilica of S. Transfiguration in the monastery so-called S.
Catherine; they were so generous to allow me enter to the Holy of
Holies(!) to give venerational kisses to the relics of the
Great-martyr Catherine of Alexandria (I know some claim the doubt
about her historical existence, but it is another story). After all,
not only in the venue, party and accommodation, but also in the
entire of the country, its virtues, beauty, riches and generosity
cannot be underestimated by its malice, demelit, and all its vices.

The monks gave me a ring. It reminded me the peace and tranquility in
Sinai, in the monastery. Strangely it was not so much different I have
known in my parish, with my friends, of course including in the dorm
and in the venue. All seemed natural and dairy, no hidden special
things I think. Truly the most precious one is amidst the human - not
the place. Mt. Sinai gave me a lesson; there is no special place in
this globe but we can change our world and invite to create the place
we feel comfortable, in our own labor and diligence. We cannot change
everything at once but we can do something in every time - with
dignity, in calmness from discretion. Shotly, in love. Through
editing, organizing things, contacting the other people - just for the
love for knowledge and thus, for our friends and neighborhood.

As said, I have found some disappointments in the conf and I won't
hesitate to spread these; beware, it could be much bitterer than
anyone input ;D But I'll try to keep in the line directly related to
the conference and its organizing team's concern. And thanks to Alex
team again, and to Patricio and BA team, for your promised serious
concerns.

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Patricio Lorente
<patricio.lorente@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/7/28 Al Tally <majorly.wiki@googlemail.com>:
>> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
>> meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never
>> want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania.
> [...]
>> I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way
>> I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different
>> places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene,
>> the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too
>> expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go
>> somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more
>> similar to here.
>>
>> I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest
>> concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel
>> the same way I do about a lot of the things I said.
>
> Dear friends:
>
> I'm happy to see that this thread turned into a more constructive
> discussion about things we can do better in next wikimanias. I can't
> imagine how could the egyptian team change the local taxi drivers'
> culture just for our comfort.
>
> While we (in Argentina) are taking notes on every comment about things
> to do and things to improve, I'd like to say a few words, about some
> concepts that didn't sound well to me.
>
> I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the
> taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport
> media would be below european standars -although the train service
> from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be
> terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends,
> to the South.
>
> And I was very happy not only for the great job and friendship of the
> egyptian team, not only for an outstanding conference venue, but also
> because when we say: "a world in which every human being..." we are
> also talking about this people. We are talking *most of all* about
> this people.
>
> Of course, nobody is forced to go anywhere if is going to be
> uncomfortable. But you can't go to Egypt (or to South America) and
> complain because you didn't find the services of a Nordic country.
>
> We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos
> Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and
> perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars
> (please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you
> walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families
> of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
> able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>
> So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my
> words sound bitter: I just couldn't help.
>
> Patricio
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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is there a video recording available of the press conf as well?

lodewijk

2008/7/29 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org>:
> To add to what Florence said, the opening day's press conference was one of
> the most professionally organised parts of the event. All the stops were
> pulled out to present the WMF to the press as an established and serious
> body.
>
> The room used for the press conference should likely have been hijacked for
> as many sessions as could have been fitted in it. Every desk had its own
> power point and an RJ45 cable to get connected with. There was a microphone
> with a push to talk button, and a pair of headphones. The headphones allowed
> for simultaneous translation from English to Arabic, and vice versa.
>
> The regional press were there in force, you could not have fitted another TV
> camera into the back row. If I recall correctly, Florence commented in her
> presentation later in the conference that some of the TV coverage prompted
> people to turn up at the conference's second and third days to find out
> more.
>
> Unfortunately, there was quite a bit of the standard fare in the Q&A - the
> tired old "academics don't trust Wikipedia", and the one Jimmy was quick to
> step on - conflating the WMF with Wikia. I can't comment on the interviews
> after the main press conference, unlike Florence I got some lunch on the
> first day. The mystery pasta dish was delicious, and I looked for it in vain
> the remaining two days of the conference.
>
>
> Brian McNeil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
> [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Florence
> Devouard
> Sent: 29 July 2008 00:14
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments
>
> I certainly was a very lucky woman, since I was *pampered* in terms of
> hosting and travel. So, I did not share your suffering regarding travel
> between the two cities.
>
> However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
> choose a city where there is an international airport.
>
> With regards to "outside" complaints, yeah, I was also a bit annoyed by
> the persistence of some people; yeah, I was cheated with regards of
> money several times (but I expected such thing in Egypt). I was also
> harassed in an unexpected fashion the last day, and I did not appreciate
> that at all. Airco was an issue two nights in a row and there was no
> wifi in hotel (but eh, that's Africa). And yeah, information was often
> missing.
> I also regret we were all hosted in many different places, which did not
> help finding each other.
>
> In terms of "inside" complaints, my biggest one would go to the rather
> unsufficient "community space" and "food/drinks".
> People were delocalized on several levels so it was very difficult to
> find each other. Unsufficient room to sit down for lunch. Worse for me:
> lunch separated for "vip" and "regular". That was a killer for social
> interactions, and vips could not go to "lunch meeting" with their lunch
> box since they had no lunch box.
> I naturally know why this was done this way. But I still find that a bad
> idea. I do not think we should artificially separate "vips" and
> "regulars". Or at least, we should be able to mix.
> In previous years, the press conf was followed by a lunch in the room.
> Not this year. Very unfortunate, because for me, it meant... no lunch at
> all. By the time I got out of interviews, the lunch upstairs was closed.
> I would suggest sticking to a very light and easy buffet after the press
> conference.
>
> Last, in Taipei light snacks and drinks were available all day long.
> This year, only tea and coffee and a few cookies, at fixed times. Often,
> sessions were late, so by the time one got out of the room, coffee break
> was over. Only once did I succeed to get an out-of-schedule coffee (the
> day I missed the coffee in morning, then missed the lunch, then missed
> the coffee break in the afternoon), but it was really tough. Until I
> found the source of softdrink for money, I had to drink most of my
> liquid input during the day from the tap. A miracle I was not sick.
> Still, the coffee guys were here all the time, but most of the time
> simply not serving. It escapes me entirely why coffee, tea and bottle
> water were not served freely during the entire event. Next year, we
> should try to be sponsored by Starbucks, as we were by CocaCola in
> Boston (I am SUPER serious here. We'll save huge amount of time not
> running to the local starbuck...).
>
> Beside this, I found all the local volunteers super useful, helpful, and
> smiling. A real pleasure. The party was great ! I was also very pleased
> by the presentation of wiki use by US gov, and really appreciated the
> presentation about the flaggued revisions from Philip.
> Rooms were confortable and of the right size (though, yeah, missing
> plugs), there was all the equipement for the video record, and security
> was not too heavy ;-)
> I did not miss the tech sessions... however, I missed Mark.
>
>
> Every Wikimania has its "very cool" and "not so good" sides. As far as I
> am concerned, the "very cool" have always outweighted the "not so good".
>
> What made me the saddest this year were all the people being sick during
> the event. I think more warning regarding food and water could have been
> helpful. What made me the happiest was to see that the outreach was a
> success.
>
> A question for the future though will be as to whether Wikimania will
> focus on the "outreach" or on the "community gathering".
>
> ant
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

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On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 02:31, Patricio Lorente
<patricio.lorente@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the
> taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport
> media would be below european standars -although the train service
> from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be
> terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends,
> to the South.

[snip]

> We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos
> Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and
> perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars
> (please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you
> walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families
> of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
> able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>
> So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my
> words sound bitter: I just couldn't help.

And having been to all four Wikimanias, you'll never take that one
thing away from me. There's nothing like the South when it comes to
the heart.

Thank you Patricio, indeed. Thank you, Egypt, for reminding us that
the world is made of differences.


Delphine
PS. http://blog.notanendive.org/post/2008/07/24/When-it-comes-to-roots
PPS. I'll take your word on the wifi. I have yet to attend ONE geeky
conference --anywhere in the world-- where the Wifi works perfectly
;-)

--
~notafish

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. For Wikimedia
related correspondence, use my dmenard(at)wikimedia(point)org address.
Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org

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On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Delphine Ménard <notafishz@gmail.com>wrote:


> PPS. I'll take your word on the wifi. I have yet to attend ONE geeky
> conference --anywhere in the world-- where the Wifi works perfectly


Seconded... SJ

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Al Tally <majorly.wiki@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and
> meeting everyone in person.

Hi. After Wikimania, we (Nina, Jakob, Kurt and me) went to Cairo for a
few days. Some of us have since then gone east to Israel (Eilat, Tel
Aviv and now Jerusalem). While my health condition had been slowly and
unsteadily deteriorating since the second day of Wikimania, it took
until yesterday when I got fever (39.5°C / 103°F) and other issues. I
am under medication now, hopefully my status goes back to functional
before we leave back to Germany.

This has been my third Wikimania (after Frankfurt and Taipei) and I
have a mixed bag of memories from Alexandria. The conference place was
ideal for a conference about knowledge and it was a good decision to
go to Egypt for reasons of geographic diversity and political
statementary.

Our flight from Frankfurt landed in Alexandria Borg el Arab at 2 a.m.
and we (roughtly 10 Wikimedians) were picked up by the organisers.
Since this airport is rather small, it was impossible to miss each
other. Our group of four asked to be in one room, which was confirmed
before Wikimania. At the dorms itself, we were told to sleep in
seperate rooms (seperated by sex) at least for one night.

I experienced the wikimania conference itself to be rather crowded and
over-busy. With 20 minutes of a standard presentation, the effective
time was usually a little bit less. When I went to the stage for my 20
minutes presentation, it took the - otherwise friendly - staff almost
5 minutes to set up the presentation computer.

The Wifi-situation was a little bit annoying. After I figured out to
manually set up an IP address and gateway and dns, I was able to
access the net with reasonable speed.

I missed any place to simply gather around with other Wikimedians.
This has already been described and people who claim that Wikimania
should happen in a place which offers both conference rooms and dorms
in the same location are completely right, imho. It could also help to
keep all the rooms open until midnight or something like that.

Mathias

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Hi there

It my first mail to this list, and needless to say i am very late :) (and
that's probably because one of major downsides Majorely told about, lack of
info on the wiki). But i have few things to say on this thread.

First of all, i want to thank Majorely for his frank and clear criticism,
that lead to this constructive discussion that should make a lot.

Many of the mentioned problems could be avoided by the local volunteers team
i think, things like infos regarding shuttle schedule for example. Actually
i am an alexandrian (and somehow i am proude to be), but unfortunately i
wasn't able to help organizing the conference because of my conscription
status (think about me as a part time prisoner), and most likely if i were
within the volunteers i couldn't make a difference, i think the staff were
exelant just as volunteers, but none of theme was really proffessional, and
they couldn't expect all possible situations, but something like this i
guess should be expected for wikimedians (the largest contribution driven
community), but that doesn't change the fact that there shalt be more work
on wiki, or by early promotion of communication mediums like the irc channel
and this mailing list where all of us could share infos, i would clarify
that most of Egyptian attendees were more than ready to help about anything
involving info about the conference or even any help needed about
Alexandria, Cairo or arabic translation, actually most of them would be
gratefull to provide help.

Unfortunately, most aspects and downside couldn't be avoided by organizers,
as you can say these points are defects by design,that's what the mix of
popular ignorance, poverty, social disorder led by administrative corruption
can do, a corrupt policeman could illustrate all the scene, these strange
picture in your memory with all its contrasts, you can call it Egypt in
decadence. But i would like to affirm you that your comments are highly
regarded, I know it is not the appropriate place to talk about politics, but
most deffects might never changes with only goodwill, i can't give you a
schedul, but come back few years latter and i hope some changes will be
done, some are already under the way, but we [egyptians] have to wake up
from our nightmare, because however you unliked the current state of Egypt,
Egyptians suffer the most.

I like Kizo Naoko's word:

> Mt. Sinai gave me a lesson; there is no special place in
>
this globe but we can change our world and invite to create the place
>
we feel comfortable, in our own labor and diligence.
>
Next time anyone want to visit Egypt, please contact your friends, friend of
friend, or anyone you can trust here, or at least someone already visited
Egypt, for Egyptians friends you can ask him/her for guidance and companion
in their cities.

Another point of view, which is already discussed, there is no mean to keep
the monopoly between the first world, specially when it comes to Wikimedia,
i bet i benefit from Wikipedia for example more than you :) i am not joking,
i mean projects like this and like Wikiversity, Wikibooks are more valuable
where education is corrupt and/or expensive, that's clear i think, and
that's why i am more loyal to Wikimedia than most of you ;D even if i have
less to contribute.

The most flourish part in this thread IMHO, is Ptricio's mail, which promise
a lot for next Wikimania i hope (and expect) it will be much better, though
some points may remain:

> But if you walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find
> families
>
of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
>
able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>
they are not the organizers responsability, but i am sorry to say, poverty
is the responsability of all of us, all this planet residents, i am not just
talking in the flow, but i know there is something to be done, and i know
Wikimedia took it seriously by launching projects like Moulin, WikiAfrica
and the more to go.

I hope if i can attend Wikimania2009 (visiting Argentina is an aim by its
own), though most probably i will not, but that is not the end of the world
for me, and hopefully i may attend some years latter, but for now, i will
try to keep active on wikipedia during my conscription. I will revise.

--
Khaled Khalil

Salam Khaled, Can you please send me your MObile number so I can contact you
better than the emails.

here is mine : 0105642546

thanks.

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Khaled Khalil <khaled.khalil@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi there
>
> It my first mail to this list, and needless to say i am very late :) (and
> that's probably because one of major downsides Majorely told about, lack of
> info on the wiki). But i have few things to say on this thread.
>
> First of all, i want to thank Majorely for his frank and clear criticism,
> that lead to this constructive discussion that should make a lot.
>
> Many of the mentioned problems could be avoided by the local volunteers
> team i think, things like infos regarding shuttle schedule for example.
> Actually i am an alexandrian (and somehow i am proude to be), but
> unfortunately i wasn't able to help organizing the conference because of my
> conscription status (think about me as a part time prisoner), and most
> likely if i were within the volunteers i couldn't make a difference, i think
> the staff were exelant just as volunteers, but none of theme was really
> proffessional, and they couldn't expect all possible situations, but
> something like this i guess should be expected for wikimedians (the largest
> contribution driven community), but that doesn't change the fact that there
> shalt be more work on wiki, or by early promotion of communication mediums
> like the irc channel and this mailing list where all of us could share
> infos, i would clarify that most of Egyptian attendees were more than ready
> to help about anything involving info about the conference or even any help
> needed about Alexandria, Cairo or arabic translation, actually most of them
> would be gratefull to provide help.
>
> Unfortunately, most aspects and downside couldn't be avoided by organizers,
> as you can say these points are defects by design,that's what the mix of
> popular ignorance, poverty, social disorder led by administrative corruption
> can do, a corrupt policeman could illustrate all the scene, these strange
> picture in your memory with all its contrasts, you can call it Egypt in
> decadence. But i would like to affirm you that your comments are highly
> regarded, I know it is not the appropriate place to talk about politics, but
> most deffects might never changes with only goodwill, i can't give you a
> schedul, but come back few years latter and i hope some changes will be
> done, some are already under the way, but we [egyptians] have to wake up
> from our nightmare, because however you unliked the current state of Egypt,
> Egyptians suffer the most.
>
> I like Kizo Naoko's word:
>
>> Mt. Sinai gave me a lesson; there is no special place in
>>
> this globe but we can change our world and invite to create the place
>>
> we feel comfortable, in our own labor and diligence.
>>
> Next time anyone want to visit Egypt, please contact your friends, friend
> of friend, or anyone you can trust here, or at least someone already visited
> Egypt, for Egyptians friends you can ask him/her for guidance and companion
> in their cities.
>
> Another point of view, which is already discussed, there is no mean to keep
> the monopoly between the first world, specially when it comes to Wikimedia,
> i bet i benefit from Wikipedia for example more than you :) i am not joking,
> i mean projects like this and like Wikiversity, Wikibooks are more valuable
> where education is corrupt and/or expensive, that's clear i think, and
> that's why i am more loyal to Wikimedia than most of you ;D even if i have
> less to contribute.
>
> The most flourish part in this thread IMHO, is Ptricio's mail, which
> promise a lot for next Wikimania i hope (and expect) it will be much better,
> though some points may remain:
>
>> But if you walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find
>> families
>>
> of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
>>
> able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>>
> they are not the organizers responsability, but i am sorry to say, poverty
> is the responsability of all of us, all this planet residents, i am not just
> talking in the flow, but i know there is something to be done, and i know
> Wikimedia took it seriously by launching projects like Moulin, WikiAfrica
> and the more to go.
>
> I hope if i can attend Wikimania2009 (visiting Argentina is an aim by its
> own), though most probably i will not, but that is not the end of the world
> for me, and hopefully i may attend some years latter, but for now, i will
> try to keep active on wikipedia during my conscription. I will revise.
>
> --
> Khaled Khalil
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

so sorry, my last email shouldn't be here at all. excuse me.

@Khaled, you are not the one I meant to talk to, sorry again. and just
neglect this msg

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Mohamed Sanad <mohameds.sanad@gmail.com>wrote:

> Salam Khaled, Can you please send me your MObile number so I can contact
> you better than the emails.
>
> here is mine : 0105642546
>
> thanks.
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Khaled Khalil <khaled.khalil@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi there
>>
>> It my first mail to this list, and needless to say i am very late :) (and
>> that's probably because one of major downsides Majorely told about, lack of
>> info on the wiki). But i have few things to say on this thread.
>>
>> First of all, i want to thank Majorely for his frank and clear criticism,
>> that lead to this constructive discussion that should make a lot.
>>
>> Many of the mentioned problems could be avoided by the local volunteers
>> team i think, things like infos regarding shuttle schedule for example.
>> Actually i am an alexandrian (and somehow i am proude to be), but
>> unfortunately i wasn't able to help organizing the conference because of my
>> conscription status (think about me as a part time prisoner), and most
>> likely if i were within the volunteers i couldn't make a difference, i think
>> the staff were exelant just as volunteers, but none of theme was really
>> proffessional, and they couldn't expect all possible situations, but
>> something like this i guess should be expected for wikimedians (the largest
>> contribution driven community), but that doesn't change the fact that there
>> shalt be more work on wiki, or by early promotion of communication mediums
>> like the irc channel and this mailing list where all of us could share
>> infos, i would clarify that most of Egyptian attendees were more than ready
>> to help about anything involving info about the conference or even any help
>> needed about Alexandria, Cairo or arabic translation, actually most of them
>> would be gratefull to provide help.
>>
>> Unfortunately, most aspects and downside couldn't be avoided by
>> organizers, as you can say these points are defects by design,that's what
>> the mix of popular ignorance, poverty, social disorder led by administrative
>> corruption can do, a corrupt policeman could illustrate all the scene, these
>> strange picture in your memory with all its contrasts, you can call it Egypt
>> in decadence. But i would like to affirm you that your comments are highly
>> regarded, I know it is not the appropriate place to talk about politics, but
>> most deffects might never changes with only goodwill, i can't give you a
>> schedul, but come back few years latter and i hope some changes will be
>> done, some are already under the way, but we [egyptians] have to wake up
>> from our nightmare, because however you unliked the current state of Egypt,
>> Egyptians suffer the most.
>>
>> I like Kizo Naoko's word:
>>
>>> Mt. Sinai gave me a lesson; there is no special place in
>>>
>> this globe but we can change our world and invite to create the place
>>>
>> we feel comfortable, in our own labor and diligence.
>>>
>> Next time anyone want to visit Egypt, please contact your friends, friend
>> of friend, or anyone you can trust here, or at least someone already visited
>> Egypt, for Egyptians friends you can ask him/her for guidance and companion
>> in their cities.
>>
>> Another point of view, which is already discussed, there is no mean to
>> keep the monopoly between the first world, specially when it comes to
>> Wikimedia, i bet i benefit from Wikipedia for example more than you :) i am
>> not joking, i mean projects like this and like Wikiversity, Wikibooks are
>> more valuable where education is corrupt and/or expensive, that's clear i
>> think, and that's why i am more loyal to Wikimedia than most of you ;D even
>> if i have less to contribute.
>>
>> The most flourish part in this thread IMHO, is Ptricio's mail, which
>> promise a lot for next Wikimania i hope (and expect) it will be much better,
>> though some points may remain:
>>
>>> But if you walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find
>>> families
>>>
>> of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not
>>>
>> able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so.
>>>
>> they are not the organizers responsability, but i am sorry to say, poverty
>> is the responsability of all of us, all this planet residents, i am not just
>> talking in the flow, but i know there is something to be done, and i know
>> Wikimedia took it seriously by launching projects like Moulin, WikiAfrica
>> and the more to go.
>>
>> I hope if i can attend Wikimania2009 (visiting Argentina is an aim by its
>> own), though most probably i will not, but that is not the end of the world
>> for me, and hopefully i may attend some years latter, but for now, i will
>> try to keep active on wikipedia during my conscription. I will revise.
>>
>> --
>> Khaled Khalil
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>

Brian McNeil wrote:
> I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted is
> that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who have
> visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there will
> be attempts to take advantage of you.
>

True enough, though I think that much of the problem related to an
inattention to details. Residents of a country tend to take their way
of doing things for granted, and this includes any number of practices
that are completely foreign to us foreigners. It takes a great deal of
foresight to anticipate the kinds of problems we foreigners may
encounter. The website for the Cairo International Airport does
include information to the effect that there are two commercial
companies providing bus service to Alexandria, but says nothing about
where in the airport one might find these services, not even in which of
the two terminals. This inattention to detail, or lack of specificity
may be endemic in Egyptian society, and is not limited to our own
organisers. What is needed is detailed specific instructions from the
time we leave the airplane until we arrive safely in the hands of the
conference organizers.

Some of us who may arrive a couple of days early to offset jetlag need
to know where we can meet other earlybirds. Setting up an early
information desk to deal with this is very helpful.

Ec

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Florence Devouard wrote:
> However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
> choose a city where there is an international airport.
>
I would not treat this as an absolute requirement, but if we must travel
a significant distance from the city with the primary international
airport, the difficulties of getting people to the other city need to be
addressed.

> In terms of "inside" complaints, my biggest one would go to the rather
> unsufficient "community space" and "food/drinks".
> People were delocalized on several levels so it was very difficult to
> find each other. Unsufficient room to sit down for lunch. Worse for me:
> lunch separated for "vip" and "regular". That was a killer for social
> interactions, and vips could not go to "lunch meeting" with their lunch
> box since they had no lunch box.
> I naturally know why this was done this way. But I still find that a bad
> idea. I do not think we should artificially separate "vips" and
> "regulars". Or at least, we should be able to mix.
> In previous years, the press conf was followed by a lunch in the room.
> Not this year. Very unfortunate, because for me, it meant... no lunch at
> all. By the time I got out of interviews, the lunch upstairs was closed.
> I would suggest sticking to a very light and easy buffet after the press
> conference.
>
Having a hot noon meal is probably important too because of the
nourishment stability that it adds to our personal daily schedules.
While we would still be free to fend for ourselves for the evening
meals, there can still be an adventure in finding appropriate restaurants.

> Last, in Taipei light snacks and drinks were available all day long.
> This year, only tea and coffee and a few cookies, at fixed times. Often,
> sessions were late, so by the time one got out of the room, coffee break
> was over. Only once did I succeed to get an out-of-schedule coffee (the
> day I missed the coffee in morning, then missed the lunch, then missed
> the coffee break in the afternoon), but it was really tough. Until I
> found the source of softdrink for money, I had to drink most of my
> liquid input during the day from the tap. A miracle I was not sick.
> Still, the coffee guys were here all the time, but most of the time
> simply not serving. It escapes me entirely why coffee, tea and bottle
> water were not served freely during the entire event. Next year, we
> should try to be sponsored by Starbucks, as we were by CocaCola in
> Boston (I am SUPER serious here. We'll save huge amount of time not
> running to the local starbuck...).
>
This is especially important when Wikimania is in a hot climate.

> Every Wikimania has its "very cool" and "not so good" sides. As far as I
> am concerned, the "very cool" have always outweighted the "not so good".
>
> What made me the saddest this year were all the people being sick during
> the event. I think more warning regarding food and water could have been
> helpful. What made me the happiest was to see that the outreach was a
> success.
>
I think that the only way to avoid this is complete control of food
services, and I can't imagine that being possible. Since I got back
home my doctor has prescribed an antibiotic; I should have known better
and been more careful, but I have only myself to blame.

> A question for the future though will be as to whether Wikimania will
> focus on the "outreach" or on the "community gathering".

I think we need to continue doing both. The programme probably needs to
be adjusted to better accommodate this, but both paths are vital to
keeping the mission alive.

Ec

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Florence Devouard wrote:

> > However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
> > choose a city where there is an international airport.
> >
> I would not treat this as an absolute requirement, but if we must travel
> a significant distance from the city with the primary international
> airport, the difficulties of getting people to the other city need to be
> addressed.
>

Please *don't* discount cities without international airports. We are
currently working on a bid for Oxford, that does not have an international
airport, but excellent links to London ones. The problem with Alexandria was
that while the links are good from Cairo, we relied too much on the free
shuttle provided by the team, but they were, to be honest, pretty hopeless.
Besides, I wouldn't want Oxford to lose out for that one detail, as the
airports aren't more than 2 hours by road away, and even less by train.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)

Further to Al's comments: It's worth noting that it's often just as hard to
get from a city's airport into that city's centre as it is to get from that
airport to other cities. Since airports are only rarely actually in the city
centre significant public transport is almost always needed, which is always
in danger of being confusing when you are in a foreign country and signs are
not in your native language. Furthermore even when you arrive in the city
centre you often have a considerable journey ahead of you to get to your
accommodation, something which is much less of a problem in small cities
(which are usually the ones without airports).



The issue for Wikimania is not the distance, it's effective communication
and help for those journeying that distance.



Tom



From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally
Sent: 02 August 2008 15:07
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments



Florence Devouard wrote:

> However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should
> choose a city where there is an international airport.
>

I would not treat this as an absolute requirement, but if we must travel
a significant distance from the city with the primary international
airport, the difficulties of getting people to the other city need to be
addressed.


Please *don't* discount cities without international airports. We are
currently working on a bid for Oxford, that does not have an international
airport, but excellent links to London ones. The problem with Alexandria was
that while the links are good from Cairo, we relied too much on the free
shuttle provided by the team, but they were, to be honest, pretty hopeless.
Besides, I wouldn't want Oxford to lose out for that one detail, as the
airports aren't more than 2 hours by road away, and even less by train.

--
Al Tally
(User:Majorly)