Thank you Yaroslav, I would very much appreciate a link to the discussion.
By not having a Youtube 2.0 we are avoiding a Wikipedia 2.0 with pure
encyclopaedic videos. I see a false dilemma there.
El mar, 23 ene 2024 a las 16:03, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga (<
galder158@hotmail.com>) escribió:
> Thanks to everyone for your comments.
> We don't need to worry about Commons being "Youtube 2.0", because we can't
> embed Commons video outside. Furthermore, we can't even embed Commons
> images or videos in Diff, because oEmbed is not working for Commons and
> Wordpress can't take directly images or videos from Commons. This has been
> known since... 2010!
>
>
> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T27854
> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T309101
>
>
> Again, the problem is not about this code or that specific piece of code.
> The problem is lack of direction, ambition and goals.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Galder
> ------------------------------
> *From:* James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 23, 2024 10:49 PM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are
> doing it wrong
>
> Yes we see this sentiment regarding a number of issues in our movement.
> The existing community wants to keep certain processes more difficult /
> time consuming to make sure that those involved in the process are
> sufficiently "dedicated".
>
> Maybe we just need a flag which can be given to allow certain folks we
> trust to use an easier process or only allow video upload by people with so
> many edits which can be removed if they misuse it?
>
> James
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 2:38?PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Specifically related to video uploads, we had discussions on Commons on
> different strategic issues recently, in particular, about this. The general
> sentiment was, to my understanding (pls correct me if I am wrong) that
> Commons has no ambition to become Youtube 2.0 and we do not have any
> resources for this. If video upload is encouraged, very strict policies
> must be in force concerning of what is in the scope of Commons.
>
> Best
> Yaroslav
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 10:05?PM Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> Converting them to suitably compact files in h.264/aac in .MP4 format
> would be by far the simplest way. Use ffmpeg as we do on the server side
> for online playback.
>
> Conforming to the arbitrary Wikimedia prohibition on h.264 you could use
> mpeg-4 visual instead, still in .mp4 - afaik patents are expired and it'll
> play in standalone files (not in HLS)
>
> If you jump through enough hoops you might get vp9 working in HLS offline,
> but adaptive streaming may be irrelevant to offline use.
>
> -- brion
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024, 12:52?PM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It would be amazing if one could play videos on iPhones when the videos
> are within ZIMs in an offline environment aswell. Brion not sure what
> barriers there are to this currently?
>
> James
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:48?PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Should read 2030 Strategy, not 2023 strategy, sorry.
>
> Paulo Santos Perneta <paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu (terça,
> 23/01/2024 à(s) 19:41):
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. We are currently grappling
> with rather rudimentary approaches when it comes to uploading and reusing
> video and music files...
> The incredibly useful Graph has been down for quite some time. The
> extensive capabilities of Wikidata query representations, particularly with
> geolocated data on maps, appear to have barely scratched the surface.
> Listeria frequently experiences issues and underwent a major update that
> disrupted previous queries.
>
> On a personal note, I attempted to create a dynamic digital library of
> works under a free license using Wikidata for our Digital Humanistics
> centre. However, I discovered that with the available tools, I would need
> to code the presentation myself, as the options for reuse outside of
> Wikidata were very basic.
>
> On the whole, the Wikipedia experience remains challenging, especially for
> newcomers. The much wanted Visual Editor developments and improvements seem
> to have stopped years ago. The recent changes made by the 'Desktop
> Improvement' team to the default Wikipedia skin seem to be more geared
> towards readers than editors and have apparently worsened the overall
> experience, according to feedback I've received from newcomers.
>
> These are just a few instances that have underscored, and continue to
> underscore, my belief that we are likely not on the path towards achieving
> the objectives outlined in the 2023 Strategy.
>
> My personal impression is that the issue doesn't necessarily stem from a
> lack of funding to pursue these objectives but rather from the ineffective
> expenditure and allocation of those funds. I wish I knew how to contribute
> to changing or improving this situation.
> It would also be great to see a comment/opinion from current CEO Maryana
> Iskander on this state of affairs, and if there is some roadmap for
> improving it.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
> Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com> escreveu (terça,
> 23/01/2024 à(s) 11:03):
>
> Dear wikimedians,
> Nearly one year ago, the Graphs extension was disabled from all wikis,
> because there was a security issue that should be solved (
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940). A wide team from the WMF
> worked on a solution for some weeks, but after Northern Hemisphere spring
> ended, summer came, then the monsoon season, and now it is again summer in
> the Southern Hemisphere... and Graphs are still disabled. All the solutions
> proposed have been dismissed, but every two months there's a proposal to
> make a new roadmap to solve the issue. We have plenty of roadmaps, but no
> vehicle to reach our destination.
>
> Seven years ago, we were discussing our Strategy for 2030. We used
> thousands of volunteer hours, thousands of staff hours and millions of
> dollars to build a really well-balanced strategy. There we concluded that "*By
> 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge*". We also made some recommendations to improve the
> User Experience (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Improve_User_Experience)
> and claimed that we wanted to Innovate in Free Knowledge (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Innovate_in_Free_Knowledge).
> Well, the situation is now worse than it was seven years ago, let me give
> some examples:
>
>
> - Graph extension is used in thousands of pages, some of them highly
> relevant, as COVID or Climate Change information. There are thousands of
> graphs broken now, and the only partial solution give is loading these
> graphs as images, instead of promoting an interactive solution.
> - Meanwhile, a place like Our World in Data has been publishing data
> and interactive content with a compatible license for years. (Remember, "*By
> 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge*"). Trying to add this data and graphs to Wikimedia
> projects has been done by WikiMed, and it is technically possible, but
> still blocked to deploy (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T303853).
> - Wolfram Alpha is like a light year ahead us on giving interactive
> solutions to knowledge questions, even the silliest ones (
> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=how+many+oranges+fit+in+the+Earth%3F).
> We have good technical articles about a lot of things, but sometimes "*becoming
> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge*"
> needs to provide solutions to exact problems, like the answer to an
> equation, and how to solve it. That's also "free knowledge".
> - Brilliant (https://brilliant.org/) is brilliant if you want to learn
> lots of things, like geometry or programming. Way better than Wikipedia.
> But... you need to pay for it. How could we even try if we can't add
> anything interactive to our platforms?
> - We can build interactive timelines using Wikidata, but we can't
> embed them at Wikipedia. Weird, because I can do it in any external page.
> Hopefully, Histropedia will do it better. http://histropedia.com/
> <http://histropedia.com/>
> - We could have something very special: inline links in video and
> audio subtitles. We used to have them, but the new video infrastructure
> doesn't allow it. Imagine a world where you can watch a video and link a
> link in the subtitles just to know more about that.
> - ...
>
>
> The list can go on an on ("which phase the moon is today?"), but I think
> that the idea is clear. We could have interactive content, but we are going
> in the opposite direction, and every year we are further from our goal,
> because other platforms are doing it better, way better. And this seems
> like some wild ideas, but then I read the 2023-2024 annual plan section
> called "Wiki Experiences" (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Goals/Infrastructure#Bucket:_Wiki_Experiences)
> and it looks like we should be going there. But we aren't.
>
> I'm sorry if this e-mail feels bitter. My experience in the last years is
> that we are now further of what we need that we were before, even if many
> chapters and volunteers are trying to overturn it.
>
> Thank to everyone who have been trying.
>
> Galder
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/T3TDXNOYBO2OUJVSKBOEFLY4I34YEA5B/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5WAACT3V43UAL3JRF6VRRDTW4BBBGCOE/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/ECDI7DM34JMHKSMOXRWWOVEXQNOK53SR/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/W47FVLTA2JLA4QGFW5OUTE3PQUR2ETUE/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/X3ZNH4RW6B3U5SV6T5BRD4DRNTFLXAUC/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/IETB2MOGMJHISVC2EEPI6SW5QQONPJOK/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
--
*Iván Martínez*
*Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
// Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
// Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org
By not having a Youtube 2.0 we are avoiding a Wikipedia 2.0 with pure
encyclopaedic videos. I see a false dilemma there.
El mar, 23 ene 2024 a las 16:03, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga (<
galder158@hotmail.com>) escribió:
> Thanks to everyone for your comments.
> We don't need to worry about Commons being "Youtube 2.0", because we can't
> embed Commons video outside. Furthermore, we can't even embed Commons
> images or videos in Diff, because oEmbed is not working for Commons and
> Wordpress can't take directly images or videos from Commons. This has been
> known since... 2010!
>
>
> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T27854
> - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T309101
>
>
> Again, the problem is not about this code or that specific piece of code.
> The problem is lack of direction, ambition and goals.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Galder
> ------------------------------
> *From:* James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 23, 2024 10:49 PM
> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: We need more interactive content: we are
> doing it wrong
>
> Yes we see this sentiment regarding a number of issues in our movement.
> The existing community wants to keep certain processes more difficult /
> time consuming to make sure that those involved in the process are
> sufficiently "dedicated".
>
> Maybe we just need a flag which can be given to allow certain folks we
> trust to use an easier process or only allow video upload by people with so
> many edits which can be removed if they misuse it?
>
> James
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 2:38?PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Specifically related to video uploads, we had discussions on Commons on
> different strategic issues recently, in particular, about this. The general
> sentiment was, to my understanding (pls correct me if I am wrong) that
> Commons has no ambition to become Youtube 2.0 and we do not have any
> resources for this. If video upload is encouraged, very strict policies
> must be in force concerning of what is in the scope of Commons.
>
> Best
> Yaroslav
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 10:05?PM Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> Converting them to suitably compact files in h.264/aac in .MP4 format
> would be by far the simplest way. Use ffmpeg as we do on the server side
> for online playback.
>
> Conforming to the arbitrary Wikimedia prohibition on h.264 you could use
> mpeg-4 visual instead, still in .mp4 - afaik patents are expired and it'll
> play in standalone files (not in HLS)
>
> If you jump through enough hoops you might get vp9 working in HLS offline,
> but adaptive streaming may be irrelevant to offline use.
>
> -- brion
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024, 12:52?PM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It would be amazing if one could play videos on iPhones when the videos
> are within ZIMs in an offline environment aswell. Brion not sure what
> barriers there are to this currently?
>
> James
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 12:48?PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Should read 2030 Strategy, not 2023 strategy, sorry.
>
> Paulo Santos Perneta <paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu (terça,
> 23/01/2024 à(s) 19:41):
>
> I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. We are currently grappling
> with rather rudimentary approaches when it comes to uploading and reusing
> video and music files...
> The incredibly useful Graph has been down for quite some time. The
> extensive capabilities of Wikidata query representations, particularly with
> geolocated data on maps, appear to have barely scratched the surface.
> Listeria frequently experiences issues and underwent a major update that
> disrupted previous queries.
>
> On a personal note, I attempted to create a dynamic digital library of
> works under a free license using Wikidata for our Digital Humanistics
> centre. However, I discovered that with the available tools, I would need
> to code the presentation myself, as the options for reuse outside of
> Wikidata were very basic.
>
> On the whole, the Wikipedia experience remains challenging, especially for
> newcomers. The much wanted Visual Editor developments and improvements seem
> to have stopped years ago. The recent changes made by the 'Desktop
> Improvement' team to the default Wikipedia skin seem to be more geared
> towards readers than editors and have apparently worsened the overall
> experience, according to feedback I've received from newcomers.
>
> These are just a few instances that have underscored, and continue to
> underscore, my belief that we are likely not on the path towards achieving
> the objectives outlined in the 2023 Strategy.
>
> My personal impression is that the issue doesn't necessarily stem from a
> lack of funding to pursue these objectives but rather from the ineffective
> expenditure and allocation of those funds. I wish I knew how to contribute
> to changing or improving this situation.
> It would also be great to see a comment/opinion from current CEO Maryana
> Iskander on this state of affairs, and if there is some roadmap for
> improving it.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
> Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com> escreveu (terça,
> 23/01/2024 à(s) 11:03):
>
> Dear wikimedians,
> Nearly one year ago, the Graphs extension was disabled from all wikis,
> because there was a security issue that should be solved (
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T334940). A wide team from the WMF
> worked on a solution for some weeks, but after Northern Hemisphere spring
> ended, summer came, then the monsoon season, and now it is again summer in
> the Southern Hemisphere... and Graphs are still disabled. All the solutions
> proposed have been dismissed, but every two months there's a proposal to
> make a new roadmap to solve the issue. We have plenty of roadmaps, but no
> vehicle to reach our destination.
>
> Seven years ago, we were discussing our Strategy for 2030. We used
> thousands of volunteer hours, thousands of staff hours and millions of
> dollars to build a really well-balanced strategy. There we concluded that "*By
> 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge*". We also made some recommendations to improve the
> User Experience (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Improve_User_Experience)
> and claimed that we wanted to Innovate in Free Knowledge (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Innovate_in_Free_Knowledge).
> Well, the situation is now worse than it was seven years ago, let me give
> some examples:
>
>
> - Graph extension is used in thousands of pages, some of them highly
> relevant, as COVID or Climate Change information. There are thousands of
> graphs broken now, and the only partial solution give is loading these
> graphs as images, instead of promoting an interactive solution.
> - Meanwhile, a place like Our World in Data has been publishing data
> and interactive content with a compatible license for years. (Remember, "*By
> 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem
> of free knowledge*"). Trying to add this data and graphs to Wikimedia
> projects has been done by WikiMed, and it is technically possible, but
> still blocked to deploy (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T303853).
> - Wolfram Alpha is like a light year ahead us on giving interactive
> solutions to knowledge questions, even the silliest ones (
> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=how+many+oranges+fit+in+the+Earth%3F).
> We have good technical articles about a lot of things, but sometimes "*becoming
> the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge*"
> needs to provide solutions to exact problems, like the answer to an
> equation, and how to solve it. That's also "free knowledge".
> - Brilliant (https://brilliant.org/) is brilliant if you want to learn
> lots of things, like geometry or programming. Way better than Wikipedia.
> But... you need to pay for it. How could we even try if we can't add
> anything interactive to our platforms?
> - We can build interactive timelines using Wikidata, but we can't
> embed them at Wikipedia. Weird, because I can do it in any external page.
> Hopefully, Histropedia will do it better. http://histropedia.com/
> <http://histropedia.com/>
> - We could have something very special: inline links in video and
> audio subtitles. We used to have them, but the new video infrastructure
> doesn't allow it. Imagine a world where you can watch a video and link a
> link in the subtitles just to know more about that.
> - ...
>
>
> The list can go on an on ("which phase the moon is today?"), but I think
> that the idea is clear. We could have interactive content, but we are going
> in the opposite direction, and every year we are further from our goal,
> because other platforms are doing it better, way better. And this seems
> like some wild ideas, but then I read the 2023-2024 annual plan section
> called "Wiki Experiences" (
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Goals/Infrastructure#Bucket:_Wiki_Experiences)
> and it looks like we should be going there. But we aren't.
>
> I'm sorry if this e-mail feels bitter. My experience in the last years is
> that we are now further of what we need that we were before, even if many
> chapters and volunteers are trying to overturn it.
>
> Thank to everyone who have been trying.
>
> Galder
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/T3TDXNOYBO2OUJVSKBOEFLY4I34YEA5B/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5WAACT3V43UAL3JRF6VRRDTW4BBBGCOE/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/ECDI7DM34JMHKSMOXRWWOVEXQNOK53SR/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/W47FVLTA2JLA4QGFW5OUTE3PQUR2ETUE/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/X3ZNH4RW6B3U5SV6T5BRD4DRNTFLXAUC/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/IETB2MOGMJHISVC2EEPI6SW5QQONPJOK/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
--
*Iván Martínez*
*Voluntario - Wikimedia México A.C.User:ProtoplasmaKid *
// Mis comunicaciones respecto a Wikipedia/Wikimedia pueden tener una
moratoria en su atención debido a que es un voluntariado.
// Ayuda a proteger a Wikipedia, dona ahora: https://donate.wikimedia.org