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Hi Paulo,

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta
<paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If they don't have legal resources, then it is pointless to use NC ND for
> the content, as they will not be suing anyone that ignores the license and
> commercializes it anyway.

In practice, this can happen. Two points to keep in mind:

* Building trust and relationships with new communities may require
taking steps that we may not have been taking so far. People operate
in different contexts and they have varying experiences, and we may
sometimes have to change the way we do things to include them and
their knowledge. We should get comfortable thinking about these
trade-offs as we think about how to bring more diverse people and
content to the project. (I'm not arguing that we should do what this
proposal says at this point. We should discuss it though in the talk
page.)

* Having some legal pathway can be attractive to some folks, /even if/
they don't exercise it. This is an assurance that they can have some
control over their culture and the narratives around it and I can see
how this can be important for some marginalized communities. This
middle step may be needed. Also, if the legal pathway is there, they
can always some day decide to pursue it.

> If such knowledge can't be freely shared, then it has no place in Commons,
> in my opinion. If that makes it less visible, then that is the problem of
> the communities that don't share it freely. One cannot have both things at
> the same time.

Two points again: ;)

* Re Commons or not is something we should discuss in the talk pages.
Peter had some really good points early on on this thread about the 3
different options available.

* This won't be only their problem. It will be our shared problem. If
Commons ends up not being the solution, we shouldn't stop there. We
should think through what else we can do to make bringing of their
knowledge to Wikimedia projects happen. While I don't know what the
answers are, I know that we should try more. From a narrow research
perspective: this is immensely important for addressing Wikimedia's
knowledge gaps for the sake of our own immediate users but also for
the sake of indirect users of Wikimedia content. Wikimedia is imo one
of the cornerstones of the Web. The content we collectively bring to
Wikimedia projects is no longer /just/ used directly on Wikipedia
(even that alone is enough argument to attempt to find solutions for
the kind of gaps we're talking about). It's being used by a variety of
technologies to build algorithms and machines that have impact on
people's lives. Gaps in Wikimedia can become a source of bias and gaps
on search engines, home devices, school material, ... .

I'll keep the specific comments about the proposals for the talk pages.

Best,
Leila

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Peter, this is a very thoughtful suggestion. I'm not sure the WG members
will see it here, maybe you could post on the talk page? I haven't seen it
there.

Aron


On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:00, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> One way to make it very clear is to have a separate project for non-free
> and pseudo-free media. Keep it off Commons altogether, so Commonists have
> no new problems, and to use it on a project would require specific
> permission by that project, so that Commons is not the only repository that
> can be used. Keep Commons the default, and make it necessary to use a
> prefix to use the not-so-free media files, so it is quite clear that they
> are different. If it is all on Commons, people will be sneaking it onto
> projects where it is not allowed, making yet more maintenance work for
> volunteers who might prefer to spend their time creating and improving
> valid content. To make it less of a hassle, the upload wizard could
> automatically switch to the alternative project if any of a specific range
> of licences were to be used, with an explanation of why the file could not
> be stored on Commons.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
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That is a way you can look at it, but is it realistic? (it would depend on details, which we do not have) SF is an expensive place to pay staff, and the SF point of view may be overrepresented. Spreading it around a bit may be better value for money, and could improve diversity and inclusion. The devil is in the details, and we have no details yet.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta
Sent: 14 August 2019 16:16
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

" To distribute many of the function now at WMF in SF to different
locations in the world (whereof 50% in Global south)" - Distributing work
now being paid with US wages to US staff at SF to people at the Global
South paying "Global South wages" sounds a lot like moving the factories
from San Francisco to Dhaka because wages are much lower there, while
parading it as moving towards "diversity" and "inclusion".

Paulo

Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.se> escreveu no dia segunda,
12/08/2019 à(s) 18:31:

> I want to express my appreciation for the work being done and the result.
>
> I am not able to get to grips with all parts of the recommendation but
> as I understand there are two key messages:
>
> *To distribute many of the function now at WMF in SF to different
> locations in the world (whereof 50% in Global south). I find this is
> most appropriate, both to lessen the feeling of We-them, but also to get
> more salaried people spread over the World. It is also a natural
> development as out organisation mature over time
>
> *To really go, without any compromise for the discussion in the movement
> in our communities must be held in a civil tone and in a friendly
> atmosphere where respect for everyone is a key. I believe also this is
> long overdue and necessary when we now are over 15 years of age.
>
> I love these two issues and hope it will be implemented in full.
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Den 2019-08-12 kl. 17:51, skrev Nicole Ebber:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > We would like to offer further clarification that the recommendations for
> > Wikimedia 2030 [1] that were shared earlier with you are indeed drafts.
> > They represent discussions around a wide array of topics that the nine
> > thematic working groups, affiliates and communities had identified
> > important for our movement’s future. They are the product of
> conversations
> > over many months with a variety of stakeholders, and the working groups
> are
> > eager to hear from you. The draft recommendations are neither final nor
> > complete, but a continuation of an ongoing conversation happening across
> > wikis, platforms, surveys, meetings, and meet-ups. As such, constructive
> > feedback and solution-oriented suggestions are welcomed. The draft
> > recommendations are based on contexts that deserve due review and
> > reflection, and are the result of the efforts of many, rather than single
> > individuals.
> >
> > Many of the draft recommendations underline structural changes needed for
> > the growth and expansion of a movement like ours. Many are representative
> > of wider societal, historical and global dynamics around us. Please take
> > the time to review the draft recommendations in their entirety, pose
> > questions, hear from others, and in the spirit of collegial
> collaboration,
> > offer suggestions that you think can address the issues at hand. This is
> a
> > process for all of us to shape our shared future, together; let’s keep
> > engaging and challenging one another in this same spirit.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Nicole
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> >
> > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 15:49, Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "And just to keep this on track, what is your view on how we can
> >> incorporate
> >> indigenous knowledge without it becoming commercialised by the current
> >> licensing scheme?"
> >>
> >> We can't and no one can.
> >>
> >> Knowledge, ideas, and concepts cannot be copyrighted to begin with. Now,
> >> specific expressions of those ideas certainly can be, but the underlying
> >> facts and ideas cannot. If the expression of those ideas is to be on
> >> Wikimedia, they must be under an open content license, allowing reuse
> >> without regard to purpose. If someone would prefer to put their work
> under
> >> an NC license, then a free-content project is not the appropriate place
> for
> >> it. Many other places are happy to accept NC-licensed material. But even
> >> then, reuse of the concepts and facts cannot be prohibited no matter
> what
> >> one does.
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 5:47 AM Philip Kopetzky <
> philip.kopetzky@gmail.com
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Please don't generalise frustration with your conduct on this list.
> >> You're
> >>> the only one telling people to shut up here.
> >>>
> >>> And just to keep this on track, what is your view on how we can
> >> incorporate
> >>> indigenous knowledge without it becoming commercialised by the current
> >>> licensing scheme?
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >
>
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"All change has negative connotations to some members of the community".
That statement may be true, but it is not useful. Not even slightly. It could serve as a preamble to a detailed exposition, but on its own in the specific context it just looks arrogant and incompetent.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andy Mabbett
Sent: 14 August 2019 18:08
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 22:09, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't want people to feel that their ideas are being casually dismissed

I don't want people to feel their genuine concerns are being casually
dismissed; not least with glib lines like "All change has negative
connotations to some members of the community".

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Hello Leila,

Just two quick notes on what you've said:
*" We should get comfortable thinking about these trade-offs as we think
about how to bring more diverse people and content to the project" - I face
this argument constantly in my life as an active Wikimedian. University
teachers tell we can have all papers from their university on Commons,
Wikisource, if we allow NC-ND. VIPs tell me they will give a number of
exclusive materials, given that they are blocked from commercial use.
Professional photographers, same story. To all of them I explain this is a
question of a basic principle of the project, the principle of Free
Knowledge, and that this is the essence, this is at the core of Wikimedia
projects, and can't be negotiated. This is how I've been understanding our
communities general thinking and ideals for the many years I've been
around, so changing that to accommodate more diversity really seems
something absolutely alien to our mission as Wikimedians, independently of
the merits of the content that could be incorporated in the projects that
way.
*In order to protect local folklore from "undue exploitation", Mozambique
government has decided that all manifestations of folklore in the country
are protected by copyright, and that they own that copyright. Result: we
end up with an huge cultural gap in Mozambique at the Wikimedia projects.
Not only in Mozambique, but in a number of other countries that apply
similar legal restrictions to this kind of cultural materials.

The solution for both cases has been, for well more than a decade, to
include that content as necessary under special provisions in some of our
projects - SEE EDP at
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Licensing_policy -
depending on approval of the project local community. So the solution for
that problem already exists for long, and this is not only reinventing the
wheel, but doing so at the expense of our most dear core principles and
mission.

Best,
Paulo


Leila Zia <leila@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia quinta, 15/08/2019 à(s)
05:42:

> Hi Paulo,
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta
> <paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If they don't have legal resources, then it is pointless to use NC ND for
> > the content, as they will not be suing anyone that ignores the license
> and
> > commercializes it anyway.
>
> In practice, this can happen. Two points to keep in mind:
>
> * Building trust and relationships with new communities may require
> taking steps that we may not have been taking so far. People operate
> in different contexts and they have varying experiences, and we may
> sometimes have to change the way we do things to include them and
> their knowledge. We should get comfortable thinking about these
> trade-offs as we think about how to bring more diverse people and
> content to the project. (I'm not arguing that we should do what this
> proposal says at this point. We should discuss it though in the talk
> page.)
>
> * Having some legal pathway can be attractive to some folks, /even if/
> they don't exercise it. This is an assurance that they can have some
> control over their culture and the narratives around it and I can see
> how this can be important for some marginalized communities. This
> middle step may be needed. Also, if the legal pathway is there, they
> can always some day decide to pursue it.
>
> > If such knowledge can't be freely shared, then it has no place in
> Commons,
> > in my opinion. If that makes it less visible, then that is the problem of
> > the communities that don't share it freely. One cannot have both things
> at
> > the same time.
>
> Two points again: ;)
>
> * Re Commons or not is something we should discuss in the talk pages.
> Peter had some really good points early on on this thread about the 3
> different options available.
>
> * This won't be only their problem. It will be our shared problem. If
> Commons ends up not being the solution, we shouldn't stop there. We
> should think through what else we can do to make bringing of their
> knowledge to Wikimedia projects happen. While I don't know what the
> answers are, I know that we should try more. From a narrow research
> perspective: this is immensely important for addressing Wikimedia's
> knowledge gaps for the sake of our own immediate users but also for
> the sake of indirect users of Wikimedia content. Wikimedia is imo one
> of the cornerstones of the Web. The content we collectively bring to
> Wikimedia projects is no longer /just/ used directly on Wikipedia
> (even that alone is enough argument to attempt to find solutions for
> the kind of gaps we're talking about). It's being used by a variety of
> technologies to build algorithms and machines that have impact on
> people's lives. Gaps in Wikimedia can become a source of bias and gaps
> on search engines, home devices, school material, ... .
>
> I'll keep the specific comments about the proposals for the talk pages.
>
> Best,
> Leila
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Done,
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Aron Manning
Sent: 15 August 2019 07:01
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

Peter, this is a very thoughtful suggestion. I'm not sure the WG members
will see it here, maybe you could post on the talk page? I haven't seen it
there.

Aron


On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 12:00, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> One way to make it very clear is to have a separate project for non-free
> and pseudo-free media. Keep it off Commons altogether, so Commonists have
> no new problems, and to use it on a project would require specific
> permission by that project, so that Commons is not the only repository that
> can be used. Keep Commons the default, and make it necessary to use a
> prefix to use the not-so-free media files, so it is quite clear that they
> are different. If it is all on Commons, people will be sneaking it onto
> projects where it is not allowed, making yet more maintenance work for
> volunteers who might prefer to spend their time creating and improving
> valid content. To make it less of a hassle, the upload wizard could
> automatically switch to the alternative project if any of a specific range
> of licences were to be used, with an explanation of why the file could not
> be stored on Commons.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
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On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 06:42, Leila Zia <leila@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> * Re Commons or not is something we should discuss in the talk pages.
>
Peter had some really good points early on on this thread about the 3
> different options available.
>

And his option of a dedicated project for non-free content has been
already proposed
in 2015 <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NonFreeWiki> and 2018
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NonFreeWiki_(2)>, proposed name
*NonFreeWiki */ *FairUseWiki */ *UnCommons */ etc.
Discuss at: recommendation talk page section
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Diversity/Recommendations/9#NonFreeWiki>

I was pretty surprised this was not mentioned in the recommendation. That
proposal answers many questions, missing from the current recommendation.

Aron
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Hi Nicole,

I suggest also to harmonize a little bit the reccomandations of the
working groups too.

I had a quick reading and I found several conflictual points among the
different working groups.

An example is the technology working group where the first
reccomandation is about a decentralization and I suppose about a
"strong" decentralization where everyone can contribute to the vision,
while the Resource Allocation reports the concept of hubs in several
points of their reccomandations.

In this case to decentralize from one point to another point a
competence doesn't mean "decentralization" but it's "delocalization".
Basically it remains a central point of competence delocated
geographically but basically a central point (so the opposite of
decentralization).

This is an example but there are several ones and the time is short to
comment.

Kind regards


On 09/08/2019 20:36, Nicole Ebber wrote:
>
> Over the next month, working groups will take the input they receive
> into the recommendations, alongside external advice and research, and
> use it to refine and finalize them. Share your views, and help shape
> what Wikimedia will look like in 2030 and beyond.
>
> If you have any questions or feedback, please feel free to get in touch.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicole
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> [3] https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Wikimedia_2030
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/2019_Community_Conversations/Strategy_Salons
> [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/People/Community_Strategy_Liaisons
>

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Just to follow this up, we in the Roles and Responsibilities working group
have now supplemented our recommendations with three potential future
structural models for the Wikimedia movement. (These have were being worked
on still on in the light of other feedback on Thursday, hence them not
being published at the same time as our recommendations.)

While comments and questions are welcome on Meta, we have created a survey
for each model to help gather granular feedback on the strengths and
weaknesses of each and that is our preferred method of getting detailed
comments.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Roles_%26_Responsibilities/Recommendations


Thanks,

Chris Keating
User:The Land

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 7:37 PM Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de>
wrote:

> Dear fellow Wikimedians,
>
> They’re here! [1] We are delighted to announce the first round of
> draft recommendations for structural change within our movement have
> been published. The recommendations have been developed by the nine
> Wikimedia 2030 working groups and are a key tool to help us build the
> future of our movement.
>
> Working group members have been working tirelessly for a year to
> research the movement, analyze community input shared via community
> conversations, and gain insight into external trends. A huge thank you
> to each and every member for helping us reach this key milestone.
>
> The draft recommendations are a first look at ways we can adapt our
> movement’s structures to help us advance in our strategic direction.
> They are the starting point for conversations about what kind of
> future we want to create together.
>
> The recommendations are not final. In order to get them to that stage,
> your input is needed! We would like to hear from you all what these
> changes would mean for you in your local or thematic context, what do
> you like about them, and where you potentially see any red flags. And
> of course, always critically question whether these recommendations
> support the strategic direction.
>
> There are a few ways to do this:
> * Read through the recommendations online and provide your input
> directly on Meta. [2]
> * If you will be at Wikimania, join us in the Wikimedia 2030 space. [3]
> * Attend a Strategy Salon hosted by an affiliate where you live. [4]
> * Reach out to a Strategy Liaison in your language to share feedback,
> or lead a conversation of your own. [5]
>
> Over the next month, working groups will take the input they receive
> into the recommendations, alongside external advice and research, and
> use it to refine and finalize them. Share your views, and help shape
> what Wikimedia will look like in 2030 and beyond.
>
> If you have any questions or feedback, please feel free to get in touch.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Nicole
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> [3] https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Wikimedia_2030
> [4]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/2019_Community_Conversations/Strategy_Salons
> [5]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/People/Community_Strategy_Liaisons
>
> --
> Nicole Ebber
> Adviser International Relations
> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> https://wikimedia.de
>
> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> Menschheit teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns
> dabei! https://spenden.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Chris,

There is perhaps some confusion here. Most Wikipedians are accustomed to a
process of *discussion*, during which a consensus emerges and is accepted
by the community at large, and implemented by community prcesses. It has
perhaps not been made perfectly clear that this is a *feedback* process,
where the Working Groups publish their recommendations, the community pass
their comments back to the WG, and the WG then collate them and decide the
final form of the recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF. Some of
the angst in previous comments on the list (about lack of time, and so
forth) derives from the fact that this crucial difference has clearly not
been universally understood.

Jeff

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 6:01 PM Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Just to follow this up, we in the Roles and Responsibilities working group
> have now supplemented our recommendations with three potential future
> structural models for the Wikimedia movement. (These have were being worked
> on still on in the light of other feedback on Thursday, hence them not
> being published at the same time as our recommendations.)
>
> While comments and questions are welcome on Meta, we have created a survey
> for each model to help gather granular feedback on the strengths and
> weaknesses of each and that is our preferred method of getting detailed
> comments.
>
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Roles_%26_Responsibilities/Recommendations
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris Keating
> User:The Land
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 7:37 PM Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear fellow Wikimedians,
> >
> > They’re here! [1] We are delighted to announce the first round of
> > draft recommendations for structural change within our movement have
> > been published. The recommendations have been developed by the nine
> > Wikimedia 2030 working groups and are a key tool to help us build the
> > future of our movement.
> >
> > Working group members have been working tirelessly for a year to
> > research the movement, analyze community input shared via community
> > conversations, and gain insight into external trends. A huge thank you
> > to each and every member for helping us reach this key milestone.
> >
> > The draft recommendations are a first look at ways we can adapt our
> > movement’s structures to help us advance in our strategic direction.
> > They are the starting point for conversations about what kind of
> > future we want to create together.
> >
> > The recommendations are not final. In order to get them to that stage,
> > your input is needed! We would like to hear from you all what these
> > changes would mean for you in your local or thematic context, what do
> > you like about them, and where you potentially see any red flags. And
> > of course, always critically question whether these recommendations
> > support the strategic direction.
> >
> > There are a few ways to do this:
> > * Read through the recommendations online and provide your input
> > directly on Meta. [2]
> > * If you will be at Wikimania, join us in the Wikimedia 2030 space. [3]
> > * Attend a Strategy Salon hosted by an affiliate where you live. [4]
> > * Reach out to a Strategy Liaison in your language to share feedback,
> > or lead a conversation of your own. [5]
> >
> > Over the next month, working groups will take the input they receive
> > into the recommendations, alongside external advice and research, and
> > use it to refine and finalize them. Share your views, and help shape
> > what Wikimedia will look like in 2030 and beyond.
> >
> > If you have any questions or feedback, please feel free to get in touch.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Nicole
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> > [2]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> > [3] https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Wikimedia_2030
> > [4]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/2019_Community_Conversations/Strategy_Salons
> > [5]
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/People/Community_Strategy_Liaisons
> >
> > --
> > Nicole Ebber
> > Adviser International Relations
> > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > https://wikimedia.de
> >
> > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > Menschheit teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns
> > dabei! https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> > V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Many Wikimedians have left detailed and logical feedback on the Meta
talk pages, as per the request for feedback by Nicole Ebber.

No doubt there is no requirement to keep on making this same feedback
in other places, especially where not part of the planned feedback
process, or where the rationale includes presuming a commonly
understood "current governance model" which is not, apparently,
defined. Neither is it realistic to expect volunteers like Wikipedians
to want to research and critique governance models such as "Buurtzorg"
which is designed for healthcare, and as far as anyone can tell have
never been applied for open knowledge projects entirely underpinned by
unpaid volunteers, especially when there is an absence of context,
such as the "Charter" which is supposed to drive the entire model.

The specific feedback already given on Meta, cannot be reproduced in
the highly hypothetical survey, it's like trying to write on a
blackboard with cheese straws.

Thanks

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 18:01, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to follow this up, we in the Roles and Responsibilities working group
> have now supplemented our recommendations with three potential future
> structural models for the Wikimedia movement. (These have were being worked
> on still on in the light of other feedback on Thursday, hence them not
> being published at the same time as our recommendations.)
>
> While comments and questions are welcome on Meta, we have created a survey
> for each model to help gather granular feedback on the strengths and
> weaknesses of each and that is our preferred method of getting detailed
> comments.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Roles_%26_Responsibilities/Recommendations
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris Keating
> User:The Land
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 7:37 PM Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear fellow Wikimedians,
> >
> > They’re here! [1] We are delighted to announce the first round of
> > draft recommendations for structural change within our movement have
> > been published. The recommendations have been developed by the nine
> > Wikimedia 2030 working groups and are a key tool to help us build the
> > future of our movement.
> >
> > Working group members have been working tirelessly for a year to
> > research the movement, analyze community input shared via community
> > conversations, and gain insight into external trends. A huge thank you
> > to each and every member for helping us reach this key milestone.
> >
> > The draft recommendations are a first look at ways we can adapt our
> > movement’s structures to help us advance in our strategic direction.
> > They are the starting point for conversations about what kind of
> > future we want to create together.
> >
> > The recommendations are not final. In order to get them to that stage,
> > your input is needed! We would like to hear from you all what these
> > changes would mean for you in your local or thematic context, what do
> > you like about them, and where you potentially see any red flags. And
> > of course, always critically question whether these recommendations
> > support the strategic direction.
> >
> > There are a few ways to do this:
> > * Read through the recommendations online and provide your input
> > directly on Meta. [2]
> > * If you will be at Wikimania, join us in the Wikimedia 2030 space. [3]
> > * Attend a Strategy Salon hosted by an affiliate where you live. [4]
> > * Reach out to a Strategy Liaison in your language to share feedback,
> > or lead a conversation of your own. [5]
> >
> > Over the next month, working groups will take the input they receive
> > into the recommendations, alongside external advice and research, and
> > use it to refine and finalize them. Share your views, and help shape
> > what Wikimedia will look like in 2030 and beyond.
> >
> > If you have any questions or feedback, please feel free to get in touch.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Nicole
> >
> > [1]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> > [2]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations
> > [3] https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Wikimedia_2030
> > [4]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/2019_Community_Conversations/Strategy_Salons
> > [5]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/People/Community_Strategy_Liaisons
> >
> > --
> > Nicole Ebber
> > Adviser International Relations
> > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > https://wikimedia.de
> >
> > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > Menschheit teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns
> > dabei! https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> > V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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--
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF

This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
community.

While some of the changes recommended may be in the gift of the WMF to
apply unilaterally, others are not, and there is ample evidence that
attempting to do so would be far from advisable.


--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Andy

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
>
> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> community.
>

That step is not mentioned at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place?

Jeff
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I think that is very much the point Andy is making. To be reasonably representative of the "Movement" the recommendations should be accepted by the wider community, otherwise all legitimacy falls away, and it becomes the political games of a clique.
Cheers
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hawke
Sent: 20 August 2019 20:49
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

Andy

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
>
> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> community.
>

That step is not mentioned at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place?

Jeff
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And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been pointed
out by multiple people from the very beginning)

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andy
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> >
> > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> > community.
> >
>
> That step is not mentioned at
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> ?
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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Dear all,

Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building our
future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.

DRAFTS
As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared are
recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but working
documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give everyone a
full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into multiple
progress levels.

I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
community conversation processes are high on our radar. A recommendation to
change the existing license model, for example, will not just go through a
quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the reasoning
behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be ways to
mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look into
different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead of
rushing to a quick fix.

INTEGRATION
The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and via
different movement channels and incorporating it into the next iteration of
their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
harmonization across working groups.

The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of it
targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or already
addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be considered
in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input will
be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.

TIMELINE
We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could read
and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of the
recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already working
on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
harmonization.

At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring 3
representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a more
coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have also
invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
(Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland) to
the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work and
leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners and
can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences on the
organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can anticipate
any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
implementation.

Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present them to
the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others will
then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures for
approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed and
owned across the movement.

WORKING GROUPS
We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is owned by
the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2] Group
members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized groups,
and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia Foundation
staff and board.

The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being volunteers, or
doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form, storm and
norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time zones,
languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance and
identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle for
us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development of
recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings – included
incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is only to
the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible in
front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build our
future together.

Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather than
rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in good
faith, and in a constructive way.

Let me know if you have further questions.

Best wishes,
Nicole

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com> wrote:

> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been pointed
> out by multiple people from the very beginning)
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Andy
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > >
> > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> > > community.
> > >
> >
> > That step is not mentioned at
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > ?
> >
> > Jeff
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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--
Nicole Ebber
Adviser International Relations
Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
https://wikimedia.de

Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der Menschheit
teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
https://spenden.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
_______________________________________________
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On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:48, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> >
> > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider Wikimedia
> > community.
> >
>
> That step is not mentioned at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place?

But it is alluded to further down that page, albeit with an apparent
assumption that the recommendations will (all) be implemented:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_are_the_steps_that_will_take_place_between_recommendations_being_published_and_implementation?

In the light of Nicole's recent - and reassuring - email:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2019-August/093303.html

perhaps that section could be updated to reflect that:

"[recommendations not needing the legal authority of the board] will
then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
structures for approval or further consultation."

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
process of implementation.

It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
way till implementation phase.

Paulo

Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta, 22/08/2019
à(s) 11:58:

> Dear all,
>
> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building our
> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
>
> DRAFTS
> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared are
> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but working
> documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give everyone a
> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into multiple
> progress levels.
>
> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A recommendation to
> change the existing license model, for example, will not just go through a
> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the reasoning
> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be ways to
> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look into
> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead of
> rushing to a quick fix.
>
> INTEGRATION
> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and via
> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next iteration of
> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> harmonization across working groups.
>
> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of it
> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or already
> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be considered
> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input will
> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
>
> TIMELINE
> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could read
> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of the
> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already working
> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> harmonization.
>
> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring 3
> representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a more
> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have also
> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland) to
> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work and
> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners and
> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences on the
> organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can anticipate
> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> implementation.
>
> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present them to
> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others will
> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures for
> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed and
> owned across the movement.
>
> WORKING GROUPS
> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is owned by
> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2] Group
> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
> regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized groups,
> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia Foundation
> staff and board.
>
> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being volunteers, or
> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form, storm and
> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time zones,
> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance and
> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle for
> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development of
> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings – included
> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is only to
> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible in
> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build our
> future together.
>
> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather than
> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in good
> faith, and in a constructive way.
>
> Let me know if you have further questions.
>
> Best wishes,
> Nicole
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
>
> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been pointed
> > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the one
> > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> Wikimedia
> > > > community.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That step is not mentioned at
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > ?
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Nicole Ebber
> Adviser International Relations
> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> https://wikimedia.de
>
> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der Menschheit
> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> https://spenden.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Paulo,

You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
the opinion
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
over
a much less dramatic change.

> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
return when the time is right.

I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.

Jeff

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:

> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> process of implementation.
>
> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> way till implementation phase.
>
> Paulo
>
> Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> 22/08/2019
> à(s) 11:58:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building our
> > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> >
> > DRAFTS
> > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared are
> > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but working
> > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give everyone a
> > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into multiple
> > progress levels.
> >
> > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A recommendation
> to
> > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go through
> a
> > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> reasoning
> > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be ways
> to
> > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look into
> > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead of
> > rushing to a quick fix.
> >
> > INTEGRATION
> > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> via
> > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next iteration
> of
> > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > harmonization across working groups.
> >
> > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of it
> > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or already
> > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> considered
> > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input will
> > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> >
> > TIMELINE
> > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> read
> > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> the
> > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already working
> > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > harmonization.
> >
> > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring 3
> > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> more
> > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have also
> > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
> > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland) to
> > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work and
> > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners and
> > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences on
> the
> > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can anticipate
> > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > implementation.
> >
> > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present them
> to
> > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
> > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others will
> > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures
> for
> > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed and
> > owned across the movement.
> >
> > WORKING GROUPS
> > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
> > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is owned
> by
> > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2] Group
> > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
> > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized groups,
> > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia Foundation
> > staff and board.
> >
> > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being volunteers,
> or
> > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form, storm
> and
> > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
> zones,
> > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance
> and
> > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle
> for
> > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development
> of
> > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
> > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings – included
> > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is only
> to
> > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible in
> > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build
> our
> > future together.
> >
> > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather than
> > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in
> good
> > faith, and in a constructive way.
> >
> > Let me know if you have further questions.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Nicole
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > [2]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> >
> > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> pointed
> > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Yaroslav
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > >
> > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> one
> > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > community.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nicole Ebber
> > Adviser International Relations
> > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > https://wikimedia.de
> >
> > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> Menschheit
> > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter
> > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
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I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.

James

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Paulo,
>
> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
> the opinion
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> over
> a much less dramatic change.
>
> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> return when the time is right.
>
> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > process of implementation.
> >
> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> Wikimedia
> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> > way till implementation phase.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 22/08/2019
> > à(s) 11:58:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> our
> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > >
> > > DRAFTS
> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> are
> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> working
> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> everyone a
> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> multiple
> > > progress levels.
> > >
> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> recommendation
> > to
> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> through
> > a
> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > reasoning
> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> ways
> > to
> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> into
> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead
> of
> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > >
> > > INTEGRATION
> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> > via
> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> iteration
> > of
> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > harmonization across working groups.
> > >
> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> it
> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> already
> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > considered
> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> will
> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > >
> > > TIMELINE
> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > read
> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> > the
> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> working
> > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > > harmonization.
> > >
> > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring
> 3
> > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> > more
> > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
> also
> > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
> > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland)
> to
> > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work
> and
> > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners
> and
> > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences on
> > the
> > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> anticipate
> > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > > implementation.
> > >
> > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
> them
> > to
> > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
> > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others
> will
> > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures
> > for
> > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> > > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed
> and
> > > owned across the movement.
> > >
> > > WORKING GROUPS
> > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
> > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is owned
> > by
> > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
> Group
> > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
> > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
> groups,
> > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> Foundation
> > > staff and board.
> > >
> > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> volunteers,
> > or
> > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form, storm
> > and
> > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
> > zones,
> > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance
> > and
> > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle
> > for
> > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development
> > of
> > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
> > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> included
> > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
> only
> > to
> > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible
> in
> > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build
> > our
> > > future together.
> > >
> > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
> than
> > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in
> > good
> > > faith, and in a constructive way.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you have further questions.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Nicole
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > [2]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > >
> > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> > pointed
> > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Andy
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> > one
> > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nicole Ebber
> > > Adviser International Relations
> > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > https://wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > Menschheit
> > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > unter
> > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
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Except that this time they don't "hope that all of you will be a part of
this next step in our evolution", since Wikimedia community input ceases
around 15 September in what has been constantly defined as a very
preliminary draft, with very low to null engagement from the WGs, and next
time we'll see that, it will be already the finished product under
deployment.

Not good.

Paulo

Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sexta, 23/08/2019 à(s)
11:40:

> Paulo,
>
> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
> the opinion
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> over
> a much less dramatic change.
>
> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> return when the time is right.
>
> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > process of implementation.
> >
> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> Wikimedia
> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> > way till implementation phase.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 22/08/2019
> > à(s) 11:58:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> our
> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > >
> > > DRAFTS
> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> are
> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> working
> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> everyone a
> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> multiple
> > > progress levels.
> > >
> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> recommendation
> > to
> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> through
> > a
> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > reasoning
> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> ways
> > to
> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> into
> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead
> of
> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > >
> > > INTEGRATION
> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> > via
> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> iteration
> > of
> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > harmonization across working groups.
> > >
> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> it
> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> already
> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > considered
> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> will
> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > >
> > > TIMELINE
> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > read
> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> > the
> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> working
> > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > > harmonization.
> > >
> > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring
> 3
> > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> > more
> > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
> also
> > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
> > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland)
> to
> > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work
> and
> > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners
> and
> > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences on
> > the
> > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> anticipate
> > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > > implementation.
> > >
> > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
> them
> > to
> > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
> > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others
> will
> > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures
> > for
> > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> > > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed
> and
> > > owned across the movement.
> > >
> > > WORKING GROUPS
> > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
> > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is owned
> > by
> > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
> Group
> > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
> > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
> groups,
> > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> Foundation
> > > staff and board.
> > >
> > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> volunteers,
> > or
> > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form, storm
> > and
> > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
> > zones,
> > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance
> > and
> > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle
> > for
> > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development
> > of
> > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
> > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> included
> > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
> only
> > to
> > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible
> in
> > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build
> > our
> > > future together.
> > >
> > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
> than
> > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in
> > good
> > > faith, and in a constructive way.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you have further questions.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Nicole
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > [2]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > >
> > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> > pointed
> > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Andy
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
> > one
> > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Nicole Ebber
> > > Adviser International Relations
> > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > https://wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > Menschheit
> > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > unter
> > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
> > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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To clarify on this, yes we need to make changes as a movement, but we need
to do so in collaboration with each other. My hope is that the wider
community will engage with the proposals that have been made. And that we
can develop a final document that the majority of us in all parts of the
movement can support.

James

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:

> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Paulo,
>>
>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
>> the opinion
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
>> over
>> a much less dramatic change.
>>
>> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
>> when
>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
>> return when the time is right.
>>
>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
>> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
>> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
>> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
>> be
>> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
>> > process of implementation.
>> >
>> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
>> Wikimedia
>> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
>> > way till implementation phase.
>> >
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
>> > 22/08/2019
>> > à(s) 11:58:
>> >
>> > > Dear all,
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
>> much
>> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
>> our
>> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
>> > >
>> > > DRAFTS
>> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
>> are
>> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
>> working
>> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
>> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
>> development,
>> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
>> few
>> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
>> everyone a
>> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
>> multiple
>> > > progress levels.
>> > >
>> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
>> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
>> recommendation
>> > to
>> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
>> through
>> > a
>> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
>> > reasoning
>> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
>> ways
>> > to
>> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
>> into
>> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
>> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
>> instead of
>> > > rushing to a quick fix.
>> > >
>> > > INTEGRATION
>> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
>> and
>> > via
>> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
>> iteration
>> > of
>> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
>> > > harmonization across working groups.
>> > >
>> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
>> it
>> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
>> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
>> already
>> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
>> > considered
>> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
>> will
>> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
>> > >
>> > > TIMELINE
>> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
>> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
>> > read
>> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
>> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
>> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction
>> of
>> > the
>> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
>> working
>> > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
>> > > harmonization.
>> > >
>> > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
>> bring 3
>> > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
>> > more
>> > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
>> > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
>> also
>> > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
>> > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland)
>> to
>> > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work
>> and
>> > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners
>> and
>> > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences
>> on
>> > the
>> > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
>> > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
>> > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
>> anticipate
>> > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
>> > > implementation.
>> > >
>> > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
>> them
>> > to
>> > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal
>> > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others
>> will
>> > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures
>> > for
>> > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
>> > > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed
>> and
>> > > owned across the movement.
>> > >
>> > > WORKING GROUPS
>> > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process that
>> > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is
>> owned
>> > by
>> > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
>> > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
>> Group
>> > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different
>> > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
>> groups,
>> > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
>> Foundation
>> > > staff and board.
>> > >
>> > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
>> volunteers,
>> > or
>> > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
>> > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form,
>> storm
>> > and
>> > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
>> > zones,
>> > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance
>> > and
>> > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
>> tackle
>> > for
>> > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
>> development
>> > of
>> > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from many
>> > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
>> included
>> > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
>> only
>> > to
>> > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible
>> in
>> > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build
>> > our
>> > > future together.
>> > >
>> > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
>> than
>> > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in
>> > good
>> > > faith, and in a constructive way.
>> > >
>> > > Let me know if you have further questions.
>> > >
>> > > Best wishes,
>> > > Nicole
>> > >
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
>> > > [2]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
>> > pointed
>> > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheers
>> > > > Yaroslav
>> > > >
>> > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Andy
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
>> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
>> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
>> > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the
>> > one
>> > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
>> > > Wikimedia
>> > > > > > community.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > That step is not mentioned at
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
>> > > > > ?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Jeff
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > > Unsubscribe:
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Nicole Ebber
>> > > Adviser International Relations
>> > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
>> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
>> > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
>> > > https://wikimedia.de
>> > >
>> > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
>> > Menschheit
>> > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
>> > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
>> > >
>> > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
>> V.
>> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
>> > unter
>> > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
>> > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>


--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Hello James,

If we can do that together, it is not evident from the timeline sent by
Nicole. How can we " collaborate with each other", "the wider community
engage with the proposals that have been made", and we together "develop a
final document that the majority of us in all parts of the movement can
support" if after 15 September or so we will be excluded from the entire
process that will led to the final recommendations?

All we can do is to comment on this very preliminary draft, kind of
shouting in the dark in the hopes that someone would hear, with very little
dialogue with the people that will be defining them, if at all.

Paulo

James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sexta, 23/08/2019 à(s)
12:09:

> To clarify on this, yes we need to make changes as a movement, but we need
> to do so in collaboration with each other. My hope is that the wider
> community will engage with the proposals that have been made. And that we
> can develop a final document that the majority of us in all parts of the
> movement can support.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Paulo,
> >>
> >> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> >> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
> >> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> expressed
> >> the opinion
> >>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> >> over
> >> a much less dramatic change.
> >>
> >> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> >> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> >> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take
> a
> >> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
> to
> >> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> >> when
> >> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> >> return when the time is right.
> >>
> >> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> >> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> >> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> 8and
> >> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> December.
> >> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
> >> be
> >> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> >> > process of implementation.
> >> >
> >> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> >> Wikimedia
> >> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> the
> >> > way till implementation phase.
> >> >
> >> > Paulo
> >> >
> >> > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> >> > 22/08/2019
> >> > à(s) 11:58:
> >> >
> >> > > Dear all,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> >> much
> >> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> building
> >> our
> >> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> >> > >
> >> > > DRAFTS
> >> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> shared
> >> are
> >> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> >> working
> >> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> Some
> >> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> >> development,
> >> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> >> few
> >> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> >> everyone a
> >> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> >> multiple
> >> > > progress levels.
> >> > >
> >> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> >> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> >> recommendation
> >> > to
> >> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> >> through
> >> > a
> >> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> >> > reasoning
> >> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> >> ways
> >> > to
> >> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> >> into
> >> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> >> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> >> instead of
> >> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> >> > >
> >> > > INTEGRATION
> >> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> >> and
> >> > via
> >> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> >> iteration
> >> > of
> >> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis
> for
> >> > > harmonization across working groups.
> >> > >
> >> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some
> of
> >> it
> >> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles
> or
> >> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> >> already
> >> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> >> > considered
> >> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> >> will
> >> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> >> > >
> >> > > TIMELINE
> >> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> >> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants
> could
> >> > read
> >> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> >> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> >> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction
> >> of
> >> > the
> >> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> >> working
> >> > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> >> > > harmonization.
> >> > >
> >> > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
> >> bring 3
> >> > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop
> a
> >> > more
> >> > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> >> > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
> >> also
> >> > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
> D’Costa
> >> > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
> Deutschland)
> >> to
> >> > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work
> >> and
> >> > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners
> >> and
> >> > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences
> >> on
> >> > the
> >> > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> >> > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> >> > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> >> anticipate
> >> > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> >> > > implementation.
> >> > >
> >> > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
> >> them
> >> > to
> >> > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the
> legal
> >> > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others
> >> will
> >> > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> structures
> >> > for
> >> > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> >> > > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed
> >> and
> >> > > owned across the movement.
> >> > >
> >> > > WORKING GROUPS
> >> > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process
> that
> >> > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is
> >> owned
> >> > by
> >> > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> >> > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
> >> Group
> >> > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> different
> >> > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
> >> groups,
> >> > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> >> Foundation
> >> > > staff and board.
> >> > >
> >> > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> >> volunteers,
> >> > or
> >> > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> >> > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form,
> >> storm
> >> > and
> >> > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
> >> > zones,
> >> > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> substance
> >> > and
> >> > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
> >> tackle
> >> > for
> >> > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> >> development
> >> > of
> >> > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from
> many
> >> > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> >> included
> >> > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
> >> only
> >> > to
> >> > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
> tangible
> >> in
> >> > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to
> build
> >> > our
> >> > > future together.
> >> > >
> >> > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
> >> than
> >> > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute
> in
> >> > good
> >> > > faith, and in a constructive way.
> >> > >
> >> > > Let me know if you have further questions.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best wishes,
> >> > > Nicole
> >> > >
> >> > > [1]
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> >> > > [2]
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> >> > >
> >> > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> >> > pointed
> >> > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Cheers
> >> > > > Yaroslav
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> >> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Andy
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> >> > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> >> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> >> > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step;
> the
> >> > one
> >> > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> >> > > Wikimedia
> >> > > > > > community.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> >> > > > > ?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Jeff
> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Nicole Ebber
> >> > > Adviser International Relations
> >> > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> >> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> >> > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> >> > > https://wikimedia.de
> >> > >
> >> > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> >> > Menschheit
> >> > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> >> > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >> > >
> >> > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> >> V.
> >> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> >> > unter
> >> > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
> für
> >> > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> ,
> >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> ,
> >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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James

Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the Board's
position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?

Jeff

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:

> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Paulo,
> >
> > You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> > does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that just
> > five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> expressed
> > the opinion
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> > over
> > a much less dramatic change.
> >
> > > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> > acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> > next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> > wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> > let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> when
> > needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> > return when the time is right.
> >
> > I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> 8and
> > > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> December.
> > > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
> be
> > > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > > process of implementation.
> > >
> > > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> > Wikimedia
> > > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> the
> > > way till implementation phase.
> > >
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > 22/08/2019
> > > à(s) 11:58:
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> much
> > > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> > our
> > > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > > >
> > > > DRAFTS
> > > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> > are
> > > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> > working
> > > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> Some
> > > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> development,
> > > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> few
> > > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > everyone a
> > > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> > multiple
> > > > progress levels.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > recommendation
> > > to
> > > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> > through
> > > a
> > > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > > reasoning
> > > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> > ways
> > > to
> > > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> > into
> > > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> instead
> > of
> > > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > > >
> > > > INTEGRATION
> > > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> and
> > > via
> > > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > iteration
> > > of
> > > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > > harmonization across working groups.
> > > >
> > > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> > it
> > > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> > already
> > > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > > considered
> > > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> > will
> > > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > > >
> > > > TIMELINE
> > > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > > read
> > > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction
> of
> > > the
> > > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> > working
> > > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > > > harmonization.
> > > >
> > > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
> bring
> > 3
> > > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> > > more
> > > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
> > also
> > > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
> D’Costa
> > > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland)
> > to
> > > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work
> > and
> > > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners
> > and
> > > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences
> on
> > > the
> > > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> > anticipate
> > > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > > > implementation.
> > > >
> > > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
> > them
> > > to
> > > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the
> legal
> > > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others
> > will
> > > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> structures
> > > for
> > > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public
> > > > consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed
> > and
> > > > owned across the movement.
> > > >
> > > > WORKING GROUPS
> > > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process
> that
> > > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is
> owned
> > > by
> > > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> > > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
> > Group
> > > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> different
> > > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
> > groups,
> > > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> > Foundation
> > > > staff and board.
> > > >
> > > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> > volunteers,
> > > or
> > > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form,
> storm
> > > and
> > > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across time
> > > zones,
> > > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> substance
> > > and
> > > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
> tackle
> > > for
> > > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> development
> > > of
> > > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from
> many
> > > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> > included
> > > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
> > only
> > > to
> > > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible
> > in
> > > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to
> build
> > > our
> > > > future together.
> > > >
> > > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
> > than
> > > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute in
> > > good
> > > > faith, and in a constructive way.
> > > >
> > > > Let me know if you have further questions.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > Nicole
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> > > pointed
> > > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step;
> the
> > > one
> > > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jeff
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Nicole Ebber
> > > > Adviser International Relations
> > > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > > https://wikimedia.de
> > > >
> > > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > > Menschheit
> > > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > >
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> V.
> > > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > unter
> > > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
> für
> > > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
position at this point in time.

J

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> wrote:

> James
>
> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the Board's
> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Paulo,
> > >
> > > You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> > > does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that
> just
> > > five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> > expressed
> > > the opinion
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> > > over
> > > a much less dramatic change.
> > >
> > > > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> > > acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of
> this
> > > next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
> take a
> > > wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
> to
> > > let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> > when
> > > needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> > > return when the time is right.
> > >
> > > I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > > > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> > 8and
> > > > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> > December.
> > > > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
> only
> > be
> > > > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > > > process of implementation.
> > > >
> > > > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> > the
> > > > way till implementation phase.
> > > >
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > > 22/08/2019
> > > > à(s) 11:58:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> > much
> > > > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> building
> > > our
> > > > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> clarifications.
> > > > >
> > > > > DRAFTS
> > > > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> shared
> > > are
> > > > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> > > working
> > > > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> > Some
> > > > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> > development,
> > > > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> > few
> > > > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > > everyone a
> > > > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> > > multiple
> > > > > progress levels.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > > recommendation
> > > > to
> > > > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> > > through
> > > > a
> > > > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > > > reasoning
> > > > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> > > ways
> > > > to
> > > > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
> look
> > > into
> > > > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
> the
> > > > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> > instead
> > > of
> > > > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > > > >
> > > > > INTEGRATION
> > > > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> > and
> > > > via
> > > > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > > iteration
> > > > of
> > > > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis
> for
> > > > > harmonization across working groups.
> > > > >
> > > > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some
> of
> > > it
> > > > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles
> or
> > > > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> > > already
> > > > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > > > considered
> > > > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
> input
> > > will
> > > > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > > > >
> > > > > TIMELINE
> > > > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants
> could
> > > > read
> > > > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will
> do
> > > > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
> direction
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> > > working
> > > > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > > > > harmonization.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
> > bring
> > > 3
> > > > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to
> develop a
> > > > more
> > > > > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > > > > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have
> > > also
> > > > > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
> > D’Costa
> > > > > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
> Deutschland)
> > > to
> > > > > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their
> work
> > > and
> > > > > leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
> listeners
> > > and
> > > > > can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
> consequences
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > > > > representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > > > recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> > > anticipate
> > > > > any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > > > > implementation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and present
> > > them
> > > > to
> > > > > the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the
> > legal
> > > > > authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while
> others
> > > will
> > > > > then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > structures
> > > > for
> > > > > approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional
> public
> > > > > consultation activities around implementation that will be
> discussed
> > > and
> > > > > owned across the movement.
> > > > >
> > > > > WORKING GROUPS
> > > > > We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process
> > that
> > > > > embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is
> > owned
> > > > by
> > > > > the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by a
> > > > > steering committee and the groups were established in July 2019.[2]
> > > Group
> > > > > members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> > different
> > > > > regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized
> > > groups,
> > > > > and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> > > Foundation
> > > > > staff and board.
> > > > >
> > > > > The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> > > volunteers,
> > > > or
> > > > > doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > > > > recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form,
> > storm
> > > > and
> > > > > norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across
> time
> > > > zones,
> > > > > languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> > substance
> > > > and
> > > > > identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
> > tackle
> > > > for
> > > > > us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> > development
> > > > of
> > > > > recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from
> > many
> > > > > online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> > > included
> > > > > incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It is
> > > only
> > > > to
> > > > > the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
> tangible
> > > in
> > > > > front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to
> > build
> > > > our
> > > > > future together.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, rather
> > > than
> > > > > rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute
> in
> > > > good
> > > > > faith, and in a constructive way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know if you have further questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > Nicole
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been
> > > > pointed
> > > > > > out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > > > andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> > > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > > > > > > > recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step;
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > > > where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That step is not mentioned at
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jeff
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Nicole Ebber
> > > > > Adviser International Relations
> > > > > Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> > > > > Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > > > https://wikimedia.de
> > > > >
> > > > > Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > > > Menschheit
> > > > > teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > > > https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > > >
> > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> e.
> > V.
> > > > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > > unter
> > > > > der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
> > für
> > > > > Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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