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To others that find this interesting,

I have found that this decision is very biased, as it is based on
assumptions not on arguments. I have tried to communicate with members
of subcommittee but They found it unrelevant and made decision to deny
this request (you will find my attempt on this mailing list). The
explanation is colored by political vocabulary with no particular
reason, it is only driven on assumption - not real facts at least they
didn't show them.

On request page was started a "war" against Montenegrin wikipedia
where mostly Serbs voted against Montenegrin Wikipedia. Legitimate
votes, but Montenegrin votes was deleted and marked as sock puppets -
even it was not true. I don't understand why stewards dint check this
votes again, but on page you will find many accusation on my name that
stewards/Admin didn't try to clear. Why? I don't understand. I have
called them several times but with no success.
Our test wiki (wikii.itam.ws) was attacked several days by members of
meta wiki on Mediawiki website originated from Serbia, deleting our
pages and mocking on our State name changing it to Albania,etc. We lost
several days in fight against vandals and tried to talk with stewards
about what happen on meta request page, this was very difficult to us,
but stewards didn't reacted swift in this situation clearing up the
discussion there (maybe they did have some other work to do I don't
know). I have called them about 20 times. At end I was blocked by no
particular reason, and discussion was heated by some serbs which
political agitated and insulted some people from Montenegro. That made
reaction that leaded to page protection.
I have talked with stewards about my ban on meta and they agreed to
unblock me and to give me a chance to explain all on my talk
page(user:Ego_and_his_own). On which I was also false accused, but no
one reacted.
Page was on subcommittee "desk" almost a week before new policy was on
stage, but never less the request was judged on new policy, this is not
normal in common law or in common decision making rules. But never less
on that page request there was more than 5 people willing to contribute
to Montenegrin wikipedia, which is basic rule from new policy. In
discussion also was enough material to be positive to this request. At
least to ask for some clearance on some questions, but members of
committee didn't find this necessary.

I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
looks very strange to me.

Thank you

Darko Bulatovic







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On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
> looks very strange to me.


OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.


- d.
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David Gerard wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>
>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>> looks very strange to me.
>>
>
>
> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?

Darko Bulatovic

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Darko Bulatovic schreef:
> David Gerard wrote:
>
>> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>>> looks very strange to me.
>>>
>>>
>> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
>> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
>
> Darko Bulatovic
Hoi,
Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for
professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that
Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that
when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by
adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared
for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there
being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us
both speaking Dutch.

Thanks,
GerardM

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On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> >> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
> >> looks very strange to me.

> > OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
> > mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.

> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?


But it isn't a language. It's barely a distinct dialect.


- d.
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David Gerard wrote:
> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>
>
>>>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>>>> looks very strange to me.
>>>>
>
>
>>> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
>>> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>>>
>
>
>> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
>>
>
>
> But it isn't a language. It's barely a distinct dialect.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
Dialect of what? Serbian?

Darko Bulatovic

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Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Darko Bulatovic schreef:
>
>> David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this
>>>> looks very strange to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous
>>> mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
>>
>> Darko Bulatovic
>>
> Hoi,
> Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for
> professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that
> Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that
> when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by
> adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared
> for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there
> being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us
> both speaking Dutch.
>
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
>
Gerard,
We have talked about this, she talked with serbs translators?

They cant translate from Montenegrin without use of some dictionaries.
Situation is similar to the " Gorski vijenac" - they cant translate it -
they cant even understand it fully.

Darko Bulatovic.



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Gerard she could try this professional translation company. They do
translate from/to Montenegrin language:

http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_vijesti=4&type=L&tablename=Main_PortalPage.aspx&tabledesc=Languages

As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic
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You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals
(I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin
in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com,
http://translatorscafe.com).

I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved
with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain
protected.

Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer
Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?

Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script
to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was
just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand
the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called
Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.

In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges,
tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering
Montenegrin as a language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are
there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the
language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the
language is not known in the world?).

A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin,
but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE
language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to
really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to
understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about
professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out
of that.

Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?

So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help
to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.

Thank you for your co-operation!

Best wishes,

Sabine



Darko Bulatovic schrieb:
> Gerard she could try this professional translation company. They do
> translate from/to Montenegrin language:
>
> http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_vijesti=4&type=L&tablename=Main_PortalPage.aspx&tabledesc=Languages
>
> As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.
>
> Regards,
> Darko Bulatovic
>



Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale!
http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com
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Sabine Cretella wrote:
> You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals
> (I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin
> in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com,
> http://translatorscafe.com).
>

Sabin, this is joke? right? Please tell when it is a joke as i am not
very funny when this topic is subject. Those companies have limited
language translations. I hope that you don't suggest that they translate
to all languages of world?
> I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved
> with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain
> protected.
>
> Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer
> Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?
>
> Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script
> to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was
> just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand
> the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called
> Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.
>
But Sabin, you talk about politic, your statement is colored by politic.
Not mine. I am just wondered by this epilogue here.
> In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges,
> tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering
> Montenegrin as a language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are
> there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the
> language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the
> language is not known in the world?).
>
mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
> A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin,
> but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE
> language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to
> really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to
> understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about
> professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out
> of that.
>
That is very narrow research - one man is not enough. You didn't do much
effort on this topic but you did rush to make decision. Professionals
have limited area of work and they are specialized on some field not all.

Let him translate this:
Vidite li čudo, Crnogorci!
Prisuka sam pedeset godinah,
na Lovćen sam vazda ljetovao,
izlazio na ovu vršinu:
sto putah sam gledao oblake
đe iz mora dođu na gomile
i prekrile svu ovu planinu,
otisni se tamo ali tamo
s sijevanjem i s velikom jekom
i s lomljavom strašnijeh gromovah;
sto putah sam ovđena sjedio
i grija se mirno sprama sunca,
a pod sobom munje i gromove
gleda, sluša đeno cijepaju;
gleda jekom grada stravičnoga
Ä‘e s' poda mnom jalove oblaci,
al' ovoga čuda jošt ne viđeh!
Vidite li, ako boga znate,
koliko je mora i primorja,
ravne Bosne i Hercegovine,
Arbanije upravo do mora,
koliko je naše Gore Crne,
sve je oblak pritiska jednako,
svud se čuje jeka i grmljava,
svud ispod nas munje sijevaju,
a nas jedne samo sunce grije.
I dosta je dobro primarilo
ka je ovo brdo vazda hladno.

or this:
A cujes li kumim te kapicom kako avetaju ovizi ovudijena, lutkica je sad
pocela o bliskom istoku ovi kako u rvacku mogu posrat pre$ednika ,no o
temi nista !!!!!!!!!!!! Ja mnim e bi me strpali u ludnicu kad bi lanuo
nesto za Gorana Persona ,a kamoli da ga nazivam lopovom ubicom marlborom
itd itd ! No na TEMU kudj se djedose oni slini procenti % te citah
potonjijeh godina ???? jesuli uvidjeli momcici da propaganda
veljeserbska im je unistila drzavu i zivot ??? To mene interesuje !

Please force him to be honest here and not to use other dictionaries.
> Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?
>
> So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help
> to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.
>
> Thank you for your co-operation!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Sabine
>
>
My operating system is in English.

Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make
problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this
level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language
committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do
translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't?
What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to
Hindu that language don't exist?... You need to find alibi to clear your
self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
of different people.
You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
deny that. How should I feel about this?
You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
anyone from former Yugoslavia. This is anti democratic and anti human.
This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90
when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because
this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this
sort of propaganda.

Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?

I hoped that this is not a case about you Lady. You seems don't know
that all nation are forced to go out from Yugoslavia because this kind
of "story".

It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
language.

I think that members of committee made this the problem as their
judgment was not based on fairness or truth. It is based on something
that they need to explain. I am waiting that explanation officially.


Thank you,
Darko Bulatovic

p.s. I have see that other write Sabin so I am sorry if I used this in
wrong way.


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On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
> 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
> Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
> as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
> Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.

Then why not continue to use it?


> Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make
> problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this
> level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language
> committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do
> translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't?
> What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to
> Hindu that language don't exist?

Hindi exists and it's written form differs enough from Urdu to make it
a separate language. No shortage of academic papers exist that show
this.

>... You need to find alibi to clear your
> self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
> that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
> conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
> of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
> of different people.

According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of
the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center
doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.

You status as an independent nation state is not an issue. The
question is how a European language of ~150K could be completely
missed by academics. Romansh has half that number of speakers and has
been documented since at least 1776.

> You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
> I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
> deny that. How should I feel about this?

You should consider the possibility of transferring your
understandable national pride to other things.

> You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
> from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
> anyone from former Yugoslavia.

Miloshevic is dead.

> This is anti democratic and anti human.

2+2=4 no matter how many believe that it makes 5

> This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90
> when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because
> this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this
> sort of propaganda.
>

I doubt it. Serbia has not excactly been popular in the international
community of late.

> Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go
> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me
> about working under Serbian wikipedia?

No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is
the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country
called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that
country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the
correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.


> It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
> need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
> kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
> translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
> language.

No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as
Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.



--
geni
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--- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> > Today when war is over and we know everything what
> happen and we did go
> > peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
> blind and you talk me
> > about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>
> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
> wikipedia it is
> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
> was once a country
> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
> belongs to that
> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
> In this case the
> correct name for the language would probably be
> Serbo-Croatian.
>
>

This right here is the key the whole thread.
Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
languages not nations. The goal should be to have the
least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
reasources. When in doubt we should not create a
subdomain.

The question I have is are we going to examine all
current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
future for merging possibilities?

Birgitte SB



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geni wrote:
> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In
>> 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as
>> Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian
>> as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR
>> Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
>>
>
> Then why not continue to use it?
>
>
Because it those not exist any more.
>> ... You need to find alibi to clear your
>> self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts
>> that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into
>> conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity
>> of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language
>> of different people.
>>
>
> According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of
> the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center
> doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.
>
>
>
According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR
Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.



>
>> You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics
>> I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly
>> deny that. How should I feel about this?
>>
>
> You should consider the possibility of transferring your
> understandable national pride to other things.
>
You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk
don't exist.

>
>> You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic
>> from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to
>> anyone from former Yugoslavia.
>>
>
> Miloshevic is dead.
>
But not his politic which is sad.


>> It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you
>> need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this
>> kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to
>> translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one
>> language.
>>
>
> No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as
> Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.
>
So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?



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Birgitte SB wrote:
> --- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>>
>>> Today when war is over and we know everything what
>>>
>> happen and we did go
>>
>>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
>>>
>> blind and you talk me
>>
>>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>>>
>> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
>> wikipedia it is
>> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
>> was once a country
>> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
>> belongs to that
>> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
>> In this case the
>> correct name for the language would probably be
>> Serbo-Croatian.
>>
>>
>>
>
> This right here is the key the whole thread.
> Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
> languages not nations. The goal should be to have the
> least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
> reasources. When in doubt we should not create a
> subdomain.
>
> The question I have is are we going to examine all
> current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
> future for merging possibilities?
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
>
Birgittee,

Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.

Darko Bulatovic

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On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.


I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince
absolutely no-one here.


- d.
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Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something
like language-l@wikimedia.org ?

This request has come up many times before; we now have a dedicated
language group, steady traffic on the requests for new languages page, and
enough experienced people thinking constantly about language issues, that
it makes some sense to give these discussions their own archive.

Of course people should always be welcome to come to foundation-l to
discuss this kind of organizational issue, but then it would at least be
possible to request a specific type of proposal, to say at some point "it
is not productive to continue this thread on the general foundation list",
or to ask each participant in a flame war to limit themselves to one post
per day on the topic.

These language issues are extremely important; but they involve a small
number of repeated stances and counter-stances. There are also many other
extremely important foundation-level issues which are not being discussed
as much as they should be, and which are harder to define -- making it
harder to have enthusisatic flame wars about them -- which should be
given their own room.

-- SJ


On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Darko Bulatovic wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
>> --- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Today when war is over and we know everything what
>>>>
>>> happen and we did go
>>>
>>>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
>>>>
>>> blind and you talk me
>>>
>>>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
>>>>
>>> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English
>>> wikipedia it is
>>> the English language wikipedia. Just because there
>>> was once a country
>>> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
>>> belongs to that
>>> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language.
>>> In this case the
>>> correct name for the language would probably be
>>> Serbo-Croatian.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This right here is the key the whole thread.
>> Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
>> languages not nations. The goal should be to have the
>> least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
>> reasources. When in doubt we should not create a
>> subdomain.
>>
>> The question I have is are we going to examine all
>> current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near
>> future for merging possibilities?
>>
>> Birgitte SB
>>
>>
>>
> Birgittee,
>
> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>
> Darko Bulatovic
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
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>
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David Gerard wrote:
> On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>
>> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
>> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
>> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>>
>
>
>
David,

I just asked people here to explain me with what facts they have build
up their opinion. No one did that. They just gave stereotypes and
assumptions. And now I will give some data.

I will give one part translation of one linguist on this matter:
Sorbonne before 25 years had opened class on which was studied language
which we called serbo-croatian and which today our students study under
3 names: Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian. Personally I think there will be
place for Montenegrin. I am glad that that languages and literature are
present on Sorbonne with thanks of me and my former colleague which has
doctorate on "Njegos"(Montenegrin Philosopher). Importance and image of
our University obligate us to maintain level and quality of study and we
improve it all the times.

POL LUI TOMA, chief of Slavic Class(Katedra) on University of Sorbonne
Paris.

So David Montenegrin is matter of quality on Sorbonne but not for you.


Same linguist :

Q: Which one linguistic reasons are that official French science
admitted Bosnian or Bosnjak language and started to study it on Sorbonne?
A: We are not here in domain of science, we are in social-linguistic
domain. If they which speak one language and it is base on some
differences, and if they see that they language is different and if
their rules that differ even little, they can state that this is
language which have different name. Why not?

Same linguist:

Difference between Language and dialect is very subjective matter. Is
the korzikans language or dialect? Some of Korsikans will say it is
language, and others will say it is one of Italian dialects.

So Much about your objectivity in this. Specially claiming that
Montenegrin is dialect of Serbian as that is ridiculous and just show
that you don't have a clue about South Slavic languages.

One reference to old times:
Ljubomir Nenadovic in "Letters" from 1858
" I have found i Montenegrin schools they learn to talk Montenegrin
language..."

Simo Matavulj in " Notes of one writer" he cite words of one Montenegrin
Toma Vukotica about seeking some theatre group for performing " Balkan
Queen"(Montenegrin performance) made by Montenegrin King Nikola:
" Are indeed that people from street can speak our language, pure
Montenegrin, like it is written? Let God save me! You would not
understand every third word.... even the best actors in Belgrade cant
talk out language...."

And newer date:
Linguist Dubravko Skiljan 1996
Closest to be called as separated language is not Croatian it is
Montenegrin - at that moment when they put "SH, DZJ, ZJ" like separate
phonemes, which will probably have, which is not necessary, and separate
graphical symbols, they will make far more dedicated step than what was
done here in purpose of language distinctions . Because that is
something that clearly make difference language structure - number or
system of phoneme(fonem))


And to understand this problematic people need to know history of
language in this region. But they seems do have time to negate and to
make assumptions but not to study this problematics. I know it is easier.


But I think that Klein is right, many last replies was just with no
productive value. I will wait for official explanation from committee,
so we could go further in trying to solve this problem, as this
discussion didn't give me any objective fact or argument that could
support this denial of request.


Thank you
Darko Bulatovic






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In short, there are two options:

- to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
- to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to
Montenegrin variant.

In this issue (which is related to political linguistics) the main
problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to Istria all people
will perfectly understand each other if they are talking in their own
standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little bit more distant
then others). But, not so small amount of preferences makes
differences between standard languages. Plus, very good knowledge of
one standard means that you may talk with others, but doesn't mean
that you may write in other standard (even I have a good Slavistic
bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in Croatian standard).

And everyone has right to:
- call her/his language as (s)he wants;
- to be educated in her/his native language.

And Wikipedia is about those rights.
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--- Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
> > --- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Today when war is over and we know everything
> what
> >>>
> >> happen and we did go
> >>
> >>> peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
> >>>
> >> blind and you talk me
> >>
> >>> about working under Serbian wikipedia?
> >>>
> >> No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the
> English
> >> wikipedia it is
> >> the English language wikipedia. Just because
> there
> >> was once a country
> >> called England does not mean that the wikipedia
> >> belongs to that
> >> country. Instead wikipedias are divided by
> language.
> >> In this case the
> >> correct name for the language would probably be
> >> Serbo-Croatian.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > This right here is the key the whole thread.
> > Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written
> > languages not nations. The goal should be to have
> the
> > least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate
> > reasources. When in doubt we should not create a
> > subdomain.
> >
> > The question I have is are we going to examine all
> > current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the
> near
> > future for merging possibilities?
> >
> > Birgitte SB
> >
> >
> >
> Birgittee,
>
> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do.
> As this is not key
> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And
> Balkan is not UK. And
> this comparison just shows that you don't have a
> clue what you talk about.
>
> Darko Bulatovic
>
> _

I don't understand how I put words in you mouth. What
I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion. I
and I do believe basing languages subdomains off
mutually intelligable written languages is the key.

Birgitte SB



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--- Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:

> In short, there are two options:
>
> - to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
> - to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian
> or Bosnian to
> Montenegrin variant.
>
> In this issue (which is related to political
> linguistics) the main
> problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to
> Istria all people
> will perfectly understand each other if they are
> talking in their own
> standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little
> bit more distant
> then others). But, not so small amount of
> preferences makes
> differences between standard languages. Plus, very
> good knowledge of
> one standard means that you may talk with others,
> but doesn't mean
> that you may write in other standard (even I have a
> good Slavistic
> bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in
> Croatian standard).
>
> And everyone has right to:
> - call her/his language as (s)he wants;
> - to be educated in her/his native language.
>
> And Wikipedia is about those rights.


If this is about preferences how is different than all
the variations of English spoken in the world? Each
variation has it's own standards etc. And en.WP works
quite well settling out which variety would be used
for each article. It is a bad idea to unnecessarily
divide reasources. Do you not understand how
difficult it is to keep ontop of the basic
adminstrative tasks in a small wiki? I think there
needs to strong definitive reasons for creating a
subdomain. If it is questionable don't create it.

Birgitte SB

Birgitte SB



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Birgitte SB wrote:
>
>
> I don't understand how I put words in you mouth. What
> I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion. I
> and I do believe basing languages subdomains off
> mutually intelligable written languages is the key.
>
> Birgitte SB
>
>
Birgitte,

If you find that taking out of context is right thing to do, no problem.

Darko Bulatovic


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David Gerard wrote:
> On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key
>> it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And
>> this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
>
>
> I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince
> absolutely no-one here.

I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we
have right now. In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is
in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10.

The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes. But the
fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these
dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as
people with different dialects of English.

--Jimbo
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On 12/2/06, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> In short, there are two options:
>
> - to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
> - to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to
> Montenegrin variant.
>

Or run a single wiki the way we do with british and american english.


> And everyone has right to:
> - call her/his language as (s)he wants;

Doesn't mean anyone else has to accept it.

> - to be educated in her/his native language.
>
> And Wikipedia is about those rights.

Nope. Not in the proposed mission statement and with good reason.


--
geni
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On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> Because it those not exist any more.

Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die.

> According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR
> Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.

Is it written in english?

> You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk
> don't exist.

I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you
are useing the wrong name for it.


> But not his politic which is sad.

Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections.

> So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?

You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that
Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has
little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million
speakers to come from.

--
geni
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