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The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work)
-- Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/24/06, Erik Moeller <eloquence@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As I am waiting for the result to be certified, I would like to ask
> > all of you to send me your thoughts -- privately or publicly -- on
> > what you think the key priorities should be for my work as Board
> > member.
>
> A few thoughts - I realise there are lots of things missing from this
> list, but this should provide a starting point:
> ...
> Make sure committees aren't going astray.

Only where the big picture goals of the foundation are concerned; the Foundation is NOT AT ALL in
the business of community governance. Nor should it ever for legal reasons (we would lose any
pretense of ISP protections if we did, of course, IANAL).

> In conjunction with the chapter's committee, make sure every chapter
> is allowed official recognition and have a clear process for obtaining
> that (Wikimedia UK is still denied this recognition).

Perhaps through a WikiCouncil, yes.

> Expand the Board via election (possibly Wikicouncil style elections)
> and not via appointment.

Elections alone (unless they require certain expertise for the candidate to run) will not result
in a board that has the talents needed to effectively oversee the operations of the foundation.
For example, the Treasurer of the board would need to have some expertise in the financial aspects
of running a non-profit. Other board members will need expertise in the professional aspects of
fundraising. Some members will need to be cognizant of the legal aspects of running a foundation.
And on and on. An almost completely amateur board is a really, really, bad idea.

The foundation is not a wiki, nor is it a democracy. We MUST make sure our board has the right mix
of people who actually know how a non-profit foundation should be run. Of course, there will
always be room for up to one third (IMO) of an expanded board whose area of interest is to
represent the community of editors. But having a whole board composed of mostly those type of
people would be a recipe for disaster if they, as a group, did not have the right mix of
expertise.

That said, I do think it would be interesting to explore how a WikiCouncil could act in an
advisory capacity and even be a place for community reps to be developed to the point where they
would make great community reps on the board. There might even be a direct and legal link between
a WikiCouncil and the community reps on the board. But a legal review is needed before such a link
is established (again, we don't want to lose our ISP protections).

> Add an advisory Board.

*nod* but do understand that those type of bodies are typically a list of famous people who are
very busy with other things and have limited time to meet or give input to the regular board. So
we should not pretend that having experts there is a substitute for not having experts on the
regular board.

> ...
> Update and revise the bylaws with community input.

That is what the community reps on the board are for. They gather the input and present that to
the full board. Then the full board takes the report of the community rep into consideration.

> Ensure the tech committee have the authority to buy necessary hardware.

Only through an established budget process. But once a budget is passed by the board, then the
tech committee should be able to spend to that limit on hardware with the board only acting in an
oversight capacity.

> Ensure all Board members have full access to private wikis and mailing
> lists when needed (this isn't the same as expecting them to follow all
> of those lists).

That will lead to overlapping coverage by board members in some areas and no coverage in others.
Instead, it would be better if each board member were assigned to be a liaison to particular
committees; they would then have access to that committee's private wikis and mailing lists. Also,
each committee should be creating reports that are posted on InternalWiki. Once the board approves
of the report, then all or at least part of those reports would be put on a public wiki.

Eventually, I would like us to get rid of all the private wikis and just use internal but with
user group-based access controls on who can read what (a feature that Brion says will be difficult
to implement but something I think is very important for us to have). Having all these separate
wikis makes communication between the various parts of the foundation unnecessarily difficult.
Having every board member try to monitor everything is not an answer either.

-- mav

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 24/09/06, Daniel Mayer <maveric149@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Eventually, I would like us to get rid of all the private wikis and just use internal but with
> user group-based access controls on who can read what (a feature that Brion says will be difficult
> to implement but something I think is very important for us to have).


This is something corporate users keep asking for. Possibly there are
implementations out there that don't make Brion cough up a hairball.


> Having all these separate
> wikis makes communication between the various parts of the foundation unnecessarily difficult.


I certainly don't look at every wiki and every list I have access to
for this reason.


> Having every board member try to monitor everything is not an answer either.


Summaries? Though no-one's stepped up from the comcom to do a weekly
summary of wmfcc-l as yet, though all being in agreement it would be a
good idea. (I'm thinking something similar to software list summaries
like 'Kernel Traffic' or 'Wine Traffic'.) I might try just to see what
it requires, but don't hold me to that.


- d.
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Daniel Mayer wrote:
>> Expand the Board via election (possibly Wikicouncil style elections)
>> and not via appointment.
>>
>
> Elections alone (unless they require certain expertise for the candidate to run) will not result
> in a board that has the talents needed to effectively oversee the operations of the foundation.
> For example, the Treasurer of the board would need to have some expertise in the financial aspects
> of running a non-profit. Other board members will need expertise in the professional aspects of
> fundraising. Some members will need to be cognizant of the legal aspects of running a foundation.
> And on and on. An almost completely amateur board is a really, really, bad idea.
>
> The foundation is not a wiki, nor is it a democracy. We MUST make sure our board has the right mix
> of people who actually know how a non-profit foundation should be run. Of course, there will
> always be room for up to one third (IMO) of an expanded board whose area of interest is to
> represent the community of editors. But having a whole board composed of mostly those type of
> people would be a recipe for disaster if they, as a group, did not have the right mix of
> expertise.
>

While I agree from an operational/legal viewpoint that we should have
people on the board who can do the technical work that needs to be done,
my concern with having those people be a majority is that a board is not
*only* a technical body (although ideally it should function as such),
but also legally the controlling body. Thus I'm wary of letting a
majority of the board, or even anything close to that, become comprised
of people who aren't on the board primarily because they care so
strongly about the project that they've decided to involve themselves in
it. In fact it seems odd that we would want anyone not a Wikimedian on
the board at all, except to fill some very narrow role---why would
someone who has apparently chosen not to join our very-easy-to-join
project be a good choice for overseeing it?

Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
lot of needless delay in progress.

We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
exist anywhere in our community.

-Mark

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Delirium wrote:
> Thus I'm wary of letting a
> majority of the board, or even anything close to that, become comprised
> of people who aren't on the board primarily because they care so
> strongly about the project that they've decided to involve themselves in
> it.

I agree with you about this.

But I think there is a good answer to this:
> In fact it seems odd that we would want anyone not a Wikimedian on
> the board at all, except to fill some very narrow role---why would
> someone who has apparently chosen not to join our very-easy-to-join
> project be a good choice for overseeing it?

The board is not and should not be viewed as a *management* body. The
board is about preserving our principles and values in the long term,
helping the organization to prosper and thrive, etc.

There are people who are incredible and amazing people, people who have
proven through act and deed in many different venues that they can be
trusted to act as wise stewards of our heritage and who may have skills
and connections which are entirely impossible to replicate within the
community.

> Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
> legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
> became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
> disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
> be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
> forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
> lot of needless delay in progress.

Yes, I think that's right, but I consider this a very remote possibility
to be honest. There is no support from anyone in turning the board over
to "a group of essentially outsiders".

> We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
> thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
> exist anywhere in our community.

Larry Lessig is not a Wikipedian. Mitch Kapor is a Wikipedian, but not
very active. There are other examples of people who are wild about our
work who could be amazing board members, but who, because their careers
do not involve editing Wikipedia, have not become members of our
community. But they have skills, contacts, connections, experiences
that we do not have in our community.

Remember, we are considering a much-expanded board. I think a healthy
board should include a diversity of people, *including* some who are
*deliberately* chosen to be from outside our community, to help us avoid
groupthink and "not invented here".

--Jimbo

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
A "much-expanded board", or having many boards of similar size! If the idea
of the Board of Trustees is cultural preservation, then perhaps we could
have a Board of Visionaries, or an Advisory Board.

On 9/24/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
>
> Delirium wrote:
> > Thus I'm wary of letting a
> > majority of the board, or even anything close to that, become comprised
> > of people who aren't on the board primarily because they care so
> > strongly about the project that they've decided to involve themselves in
> > it.
>
> I agree with you about this.
>
> But I think there is a good answer to this:
> > In fact it seems odd that we would want anyone not a Wikimedian on
> > the board at all, except to fill some very narrow role---why would
> > someone who has apparently chosen not to join our very-easy-to-join
> > project be a good choice for overseeing it?
>
> The board is not and should not be viewed as a *management* body. The
> board is about preserving our principles and values in the long term,
> helping the organization to prosper and thrive, etc.
>
> There are people who are incredible and amazing people, people who have
> proven through act and deed in many different venues that they can be
> trusted to act as wise stewards of our heritage and who may have skills
> and connections which are entirely impossible to replicate within the
> community.
>
> > Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
> > legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
> > became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
> > disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
> > be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
> > forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
> > lot of needless delay in progress.
>
> Yes, I think that's right, but I consider this a very remote possibility
> to be honest. There is no support from anyone in turning the board over
> to "a group of essentially outsiders".
>
> > We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
> > thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
> > exist anywhere in our community.
>
> Larry Lessig is not a Wikipedian. Mitch Kapor is a Wikipedian, but not
> very active. There are other examples of people who are wild about our
> work who could be amazing board members, but who, because their careers
> do not involve editing Wikipedia, have not become members of our
> community. But they have skills, contacts, connections, experiences
> that we do not have in our community.
>
> Remember, we are considering a much-expanded board. I think a healthy
> board should include a diversity of people, *including* some who are
> *deliberately* chosen to be from outside our community, to help us avoid
> groupthink and "not invented here".
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/24/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> The board is not and should not be viewed as a *management* body. The
> board is about preserving our principles and values in the long term,
> helping the organization to prosper and thrive, etc.
>

Does this mean that en.wikipedia will be allowed to run the arbcom
elections this year without board involvement?

--
geni
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Jimmy Wales wrote:
>> We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
>> thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
>> exist anywhere in our community.
>>
>
> Larry Lessig is not a Wikipedian. Mitch Kapor is a Wikipedian, but not
> very active. There are other examples of people who are wild about our
> work who could be amazing board members, but who, because their careers
> do not involve editing Wikipedia, have not become members of our
> community. But they have skills, contacts, connections, experiences
> that we do not have in our community.
>
I suppose I don't see what that has to do with anything. Apart from a
very small number of people, *none* of us have careers that involve
editing Wikipedia. The entire project is build on the premise that
people will help create a free encyclopedia without being paid to do
so. Perhaps some people who don't want to participate in that still
like the outcome---if someone else will do the work of making it come
about---but that's a rather different level of commitment compared to
being so "wild about our work" as to be willing to actually dedicate
volunteer time to making it happen.

> Remember, we are considering a much-expanded board. I think a healthy
> board should include a diversity of people, *including* some who are
> *deliberately* chosen to be from outside our community, to help us avoid
> groupthink and "not invented here".
>

I disagree with that. We have a huge body of people, and we're open to
anybody who wants to join---there's no membership criterion except
showing up (I'm not arguing for a "minimum 20,000 edits" or something).
Excluding people who have deliberately chosen *not* to help us with our
mission from being on the board seems perfectly reasonable to me.

-Mark

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
--- Delirium <delirium@hackish.org> wrote:
> Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
> legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
> became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
> disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
> be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
> forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
> lot of needless delay in progress.
>
> We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
> thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
> exist anywhere in our community.

The question I was answering from Angela was concerned with the issue of using community voting vs
appointment to expand the board. I was NOT advocating bringing in outsiders to serve on the board
(that is what the advisory board is for). Our community is huge and of course we have most if not
all of the expertise needed. But to ensure we have that expertise on the board, we either need to
appoint some members or have elections for roles that require candidates to have appropriate
credentials and experience (not unlike electing judges or district attorneys in the U.S.).

-- mav

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
geni wrote:
> On 9/24/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
>
>>The board is not and should not be viewed as a *management* body. The
>>board is about preserving our principles and values in the long term,
>>helping the organization to prosper and thrive, etc.
>>
>
>
> Does this mean that en.wikipedia will be allowed to run the arbcom
> elections this year without board involvement?
>

the en.wikipedia never run arbcom election with board involvement.
it run arbcom election with Jimbo involvement.

That's different

Ant

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/24/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:

> the en.wikipedia never run arbcom election with board involvement.
> it run arbcom election with Jimbo involvement.
>
> That's different

Not for the people on the receiving end it isn't.

If it makes you happier I will rephrase the question:

Does this mean that en.wikipedia will be allowed to run the arbcom
elections this year without board involvement?

I could do with an answer by October the first and if the answer is no
I could do with details of what level of involvement.

On a related note will special:boardvote be available?

--
geni
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/24/06, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> Delirium wrote:
> > We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
> > thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
> > exist anywhere in our community.
>
> Larry Lessig is not a Wikipedian. Mitch Kapor is a Wikipedian, but not
> very active. There are other examples of people who are wild about our
> work who could be amazing board members, but who, because their careers
> do not involve editing Wikipedia, have not become members of our
> community. But they have skills, contacts, connections, experiences
> that we do not have in our community.
>
That explains why a board member need not be an editor of Wikipedia.
But I don't think it's too much to ask that they get involved in some
public aspect of Wikimedia before becoming a board member. Whatever
skills, contacts, connections, or experiences they have, why is it
that they can't contribute just a bit of them *before* we guarantee
them a seat on the board?

Anthony
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
--- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/24/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > the en.wikipedia never run arbcom election with
> board involvement.
> > it run arbcom election with Jimbo involvement.
> >
> > That's different
>
> Not for the people on the receiving end it isn't.
>

I agree with Anthere here. The involvment of a single
board member is not the same as the involment of the
Board.

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
--- Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 9/24/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > the en.wikipedia never run arbcom election with
> > board involvement.
> > > it run arbcom election with Jimbo involvement.
> > >
> > > That's different
> >
> > Not for the people on the receiving end it isn't.
> >
>
> I agree with Anthere here. The involvment of a
> single
> board member is not the same as the involment of the
> Board.
>
>
Sorry my message sent before I was done :P

The first step to making a change in these internal
elections is establishing consensus within the
community. I am not sure what kind of response you
are looking for here. But I would expect you would
have nothing but support from everyone on this list in
carring out the consensus desicion at en.WP regarding
arbcom elections.


Birgitte SB



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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/25/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry my message sent before I was done :P
>
> The first step to making a change in these internal
> elections is establishing consensus within the
> community.

I know how to set up and run elections.

> I am not sure what kind of response you
> are looking for here.

An answer to my question although it appears that Jimbo is the only
one who can answer it

>But I would expect you would
> have nothing but support from everyone on this list in
> carring out the consensus desicion at en.WP regarding
> arbcom elections.

I didn't get that last time I have little reason to believe you would
challenge Jimbo this time.

Last time around we ended up running the elections under rather less
than ideal conditions. I would rather we didn't have a repeat. As part
of that I need to know what role (if any) jimbo and the board plan to
play.

--
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
--- geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/25/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Sorry my message sent before I was done :P
> >
> > The first step to making a change in these
> internal
> > elections is establishing consensus within the
> > community.
>
> I know how to set up and run elections.
>
> > I am not sure what kind of response you
> > are looking for here.
>
> An answer to my question although it appears that
> Jimbo is the only
> one who can answer it
>
> >But I would expect you would
> > have nothing but support from everyone on this
> list in
> > carring out the consensus desicion at en.WP
> regarding
> > arbcom elections.
>
> I didn't get that last time I have little reason to
> believe you would
> challenge Jimbo this time.
>

I will challenge any ideas or positions I disagree
with no matter who they come from. I don't really get
into challenging people, however.

> Last time around we ended up running the elections
> under rather less
> than ideal conditions. I would rather we didn't have
> a repeat. As part
> of that I need to know what role (if any) jimbo and
> the board plan to
> play.
>

I really don't know the history there (that is just a
disclaimer not a request). Still I think the best
approach is start within the community and gather
consensus on what is wanted internally and then to
come here for support. A strong idea of what en.WP
*does* want will be much easier to gather support for
than a negative position (i.e. no Jimbo). So I
encourage you to try work on coming to a positive
position internally at en.WP. I think it would be
really great to see a large diverse community like
en.WP come to consensus on how to hold an internal
election. It would be a concrete example for everyone
interested in the "indirect election" format to
evaluate.


Birgitte SB

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/25/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I really don't know the history there (that is just a
> disclaimer not a request). Still I think the best
> approach is start within the community and gather
> consensus on what is wanted internally and then to
> come here for support.

No we tried that last time. The result was messy.

>A strong idea of what en.WP
> *does* want will be much easier to gather support for
> than a negative position (i.e. no Jimbo).

Gather support? If I go to the effort of putting together something on
en that gets at least acceptance from most people I do not then want
to be in the position of having to gather support for something I have
already put together at rather a lot of effort into.

> So I
> encourage you to try work on coming to a positive
> position internally at en.WP. I think it would be
> really great to see a large diverse community like
> en.WP come to consensus on how to hold an internal
> election.

I can't do that if people know that anything they put together can be
just brushed aside


>It would be a concrete example for everyone
> interested in the "indirect election" format to
> evaluate.
>

No it would not be. Unfortunately historically this has tended to be
the case but the ideal arbcom is not the ideal group of people to
represent en.wikipedia.


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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/24/06, Daniel Mayer <maveric149@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>


> Our community is huge


<snip>

allow me to comment on this notion please: our community, is it really
''huge''? i personaly prefer to be a bit more specific on this. there were
in total 2347 valid votes in the recent elections, so i tend to believe that
at this point, the international community (at least the part that is aware
of, let alone involved in, matters concerning the board) is not (yet) so
huge at all, even though the total number of our active editors will be
''more huge'' of course ;-)

best
oscar
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
geni wrote:
> On 9/24/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>the en.wikipedia never run arbcom election with board involvement.
>>it run arbcom election with Jimbo involvement.
>>
>>That's different
>
>
> Not for the people on the receiving end it isn't.

Well, to my memory, we never discussed the arbcom elections at a board
level. It is not listed in any board meeting minutes afaik. It is not
mentionned in any resolutions passed by the board.

As far as I am concerned, the board was never involved.

It is not a board issue.

> If it makes you happier I will rephrase the question:
>
> Does this mean that en.wikipedia will be allowed to run the arbcom
> elections this year without board involvement?

I'll be happy to ask the board if you are interested. I know I was not
involved in the past years and I have no reason to get involved this
year. I am totally convinced Tim will not see that as a board issue.
Likely, Michael will not either. That makes a majority of us.

But I'll be glad to hear from Jimbo and Erik whether they consider
english wikipedia arbcom elections being a board issue.

> I could do with an answer by October the first and if the answer is no
> I could do with details of what level of involvement.

We'll be waiting for Erik and Jimbo comment.

> On a related note will special:boardvote be available?

You should ask Brion or Tim for this.

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
On 9/25/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You should ask Brion or Tim for this.

I thought stewards could turn it on?

--
geni
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- Delirium <delirium@hackish.org> wrote:
>
>> Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
>> legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
>> became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
>> disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
>> be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
>> forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
>> lot of needless delay in progress.
>>
>> We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
>> thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
>> exist anywhere in our community.
>>
>
> The question I was answering from Angela was concerned with the issue of using community voting vs
> appointment to expand the board. I was NOT advocating bringing in outsiders to serve on the board
> (that is what the advisory board is for). Our community is huge and of course we have most if not
> all of the expertise needed. But to ensure we have that expertise on the board, we either need to
> appoint some members or have elections for roles that require candidates to have appropriate
> credentials and experience (not unlike electing judges or district attorneys in the U.S.).
>

Oh, in that case I agree. I'd be fine with setting aside some board
seats for specific roles. It may be worth enforcing credentials for
some, especially if they have to deal with the government, but even
without doing that I'd imagine the community will elect people
appropriately---if one seat is set aside for "someone knowledgeable in
legal matters", then a lawyer would probably win an election over a
non-lawyer even if we let non-lawyers run.

-Mark

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
> > Make sure committees aren't going astray.
>
> Only where the big picture goals of the foundation
> are concerned; the Foundation is NOT AT ALL in
> the business of community governance. Nor
> should it ever for legal reasons (we would lose any
> pretense of ISP protections if we did, of course, IANAL).

I meant the Foundation committees, like chapters, trademarks, etc.
Obviously not things like the arbitration committee or any other
project-related ones.

> Having every board member try to monitor everything is not an answer either.

I'm not saying the Board should monitor everything. I'm saying they
should never be denied access to information when they need it. There
is no justification for the current situation when Board members are
explicity denied the right to read private wikis.

Angela
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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Angela wrote:
>>>Make sure committees aren't going astray.
>>
>>Only where the big picture goals of the foundation
>>are concerned; the Foundation is NOT AT ALL in
>>the business of community governance. Nor
>>should it ever for legal reasons (we would lose any
>>pretense of ISP protections if we did, of course, IANAL).
>
>
> I meant the Foundation committees, like chapters, trademarks, etc.
> Obviously not things like the arbitration committee or any other
> project-related ones.
>
>
>>Having every board member try to monitor everything is not an answer either.
>
>
> I'm not saying the Board should monitor everything. I'm saying they
> should never be denied access to information when they need it. There
> is no justification for the current situation when Board members are
> explicity denied the right to read private wikis.
>
> Angela

It is probably much more of a problem when board members do not receive
information on the other board members activities, such as on the state
of the audit, the important people met for strategic discussions etc...

Anthere

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Daniel Mayer wrote:

>--- Delirium <delirium@hackish.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Now of course the Board doesn't actually control the community, only the
>>legal foundations and servers, but if a group of essentially outsiders
>>became a majority and chose to take it in a direction the community
>>disagreed with, it would cause significant chaos as the community would
>>be forced to waste time either pushing back against them or
>>forking---always a possibility, but a disruptive one that results in a
>>lot of needless delay in progress.
>>
>>We have something like tens of thousands of Wikipedians (hundreds of
>>thousands?), so I'm skeptical that the skills we're looking for don't
>>exist anywhere in our community.
>>
>>
>The question I was answering from Angela was concerned with the issue of using community voting vs
>appointment to expand the board. I was NOT advocating bringing in outsiders to serve on the board
>(that is what the advisory board is for). Our community is huge and of course we have most if not
>all of the expertise needed. But to ensure we have that expertise on the board, we either need to
>appoint some members or have elections for roles that require candidates to have appropriate
>credentials and experience (not unlike electing judges or district attorneys in the U.S.).
>
I don't think that these special prerequisites for being on the Board
are necessary. The treasurer should not need to do the bookkeeping
himself; we are big enough that we can hire someone to keep the books,
and prepare preliminary financial statements. The treasurer should be
able to understand the statements and discuss them with the rest of the
Board, and with an expanded Board it is certainly more likely that there
would be a person who can do this.

Ec

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
Angela wrote:

>>Having every board member try to monitor everything is not an answer either.
>>
>>
>I'm not saying the Board should monitor everything. I'm saying they
>should never be denied access to information when they need it. There
>is no justification for the current situation when Board members are
>explicity denied the right to read private wikis.
>
I agree with this. As the people legally responsible for WMF the
Directors need access to everything. It's up to each of them to use his
or her own judgement on how far these private wikis will in fact be
studied. Some issues will be to boring to pursue; others may require
significant explanation.

Ec

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Re: The Foundation is not a wiki (was Re: RfC: Key priorities for my work) [ In reply to ]
--- Ray Saintonge <saintonge@telus.net> wrote:
> I don't think that these special prerequisites for being on the Board
> are necessary. The treasurer should not need to do the bookkeeping
> himself; we are big enough that we can hire someone to keep the books,
> and prepare preliminary financial statements. The treasurer should be
> able to understand the statements and discuss them with the rest of the
> Board, and with an expanded Board it is certainly more likely that there
> would be a person who can do this.

With all due respect, a board of a non-profit needs to know how a non-profit should be run in
order to perform their oversight and guidance roles. At least some board members also need to know
a fair deal about how to do professional fundraising; others need legal expertise since the
foundation is a legal entity; yet others need to know about finances so they could not be easily
misled by incorrect or fraudulent financial statements from staff (not that would ever happen, but
it is possible).

There are some fairly serious legal, financial and privacy issues that the board (on the whole)
needs to have some training and experience to deal with. A group of people whose only
qualification is that they are popular community members, is not necessarily going to have the
needed skill-set. Of course, part of the board should consist of that, but not the whole board, or
even a majority of it. And, where possible, all board members should be from the community (plenty
of experts there).

-- mav

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