Mailing List Archive

Can a wikimedia-b list be setup
Dear Foundation,

Can we setup a wkimedia-b list (that's b for "business related") that is
**NOT** moderated by community members but by Foundation employees
for business entities to use to post business ralated matters. To be
honest, while I understand the community spilling over and attempting
to control the content of foundation-l, there are legitimte business
intreactions with your group that can and do go on and a list for
that would be more condusive and less disruptive of business related
activities.


Jeff

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>
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
へそが茶をわかすとはこう瘢雹いう瘢雹ことをいう瘢雹のかと思う瘢雹私。

On 9/6/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Foundation,
>
> Can we setup a wkimedia-b list (that's b for "business related") that is
> **NOT** moderated by community members but by Foundation employees
> for business entities to use to post business ralated matters. To be
> honest, while I understand the community spilling over and attempting
> to control the content of foundation-l, there are legitimte business
> intreactions with your group that can and do go on and a list for
> that would be more condusive and less disruptive of business related
> activities.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> >foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
> ?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#

I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Kim Bruning wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
>
>
>>?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#
>>
>>
>
>I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.
>
>
>
It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is
relevant to the
community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business
related postings
that quite frankly, don't involve the community.

:-)

Jeff
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Hmmm, who are you referring to as "someone of the foundation who
should be moderating the list"? I don't think that someone is
availeble, especially when I see how much work they already have.
Further I find it hard to imagine business-proposals that should be
discussed on some list, but not by the Wikimedia-communities. If the
argument would be "high-traffic" I could follow your redenation,
although I would have still my doubts, but I am afraight I lost you
here totally. You seem to suggest either that you want to discuss
things behind the back of the communities because they would be
disturbing the process, but then I am wondering why it should be on a
emaillist at all, or you seem to suggest that the communities are
anyway incompetent to understand or discuss the proposals, and I find
that very insulting to the people who make up these communities.
Maybe you could clarify which of the two you mean, or which other
meaning you had in mind.

Lodewijk

2006/9/6, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>:
> Kim Bruning wrote:
>
> >On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 12:41:30AM +0900, Aphaia wrote:
> >
> >
> >>?$B$X$=$,Cc$r$o$+$9$H$O$3$&$$$&$3$H$r$$$&$N$+$H;W$&;d!#
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm not sure I can quite interpret that. Nevertheless, I second the remark.
> >
> >
> >
> It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is
> relevant to the
> community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business
> related postings
> that quite frankly, don't involve the community.
>
> :-)
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
effe iets anders wrote:

>Hmmm, who are you referring to as "someone of the foundation who
>should be moderating the list"? I don't think that someone is
>availeble, especially when I see how much work they already have.
>Further I find it hard to imagine business-proposals that should be
>discussed on some list, but not by the Wikimedia-communities. If the
>argument would be "high-traffic" I could follow your redenation,
>although I would have still my doubts, but I am afraight I lost you
>here totally. You seem to suggest either that you want to discuss
>things behind the back of the communities because they would be
>disturbing the process, but then I am wondering why it should be on a
>emaillist at all, or you seem to suggest that the communities are
>anyway incompetent to understand or discuss the proposals, and I find
>that very insulting to the people who make up these communities.
>Maybe you could clarify which of the two you mean, or which other
>meaning you had in mind.
>
>Lodewijk
>
>
>
A suggestion for a list where people building businesses around
Wikipedia could discuss
business related issues with a similiar mindset. That's all. Issues
like: How do we keep MediaWiki
synced up to always work with dumps. How can we help the foundation
create revenue
generating opportunities. Schedules for conferences for business people
who are using
Wikipedia content in business and for funded education programs. How do
we rally funding
for project X proposed by Community member 'X'. That sort of thing.

Jeff
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:

>(...) That sort of thing.
>
And why can't this be open to the community as well? You know, the
wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is "keep everything
transparent which does not need to be secret". The aims of this list
as described by you do not seem to need any special privacy/secret
status.
Michael
> Jeff
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Michael Bimmler wrote:

>On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>(...) That sort of thing.
>>
>>
>>
>And why can't this be open to the community as well? You know, the
>wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is "keep everything
>transparent which does not need to be secret". The aims of this list
>as described by you do not seem to need any special privacy/secret
>status.
>Michael
>
>
>
>
You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I
will have to in order
for folks to get it.

Business 101

1. Businesses have goals with involve creating revenue and positive
growth, in almost all ways identical to
the communities eventual goals.
2. Businesses are protected by laws and have legal obligations to their
customers, partners, the Foundation,
and other entities and they MUST comply with and protect the rights of
these parties.
3. Businesses make decisions based upon goals which are designed to
promote their objectives.
4. Wikipedia centric businesses would be expected to have goals which
promote wikipedia content
in education, business, and attempt to promote the spread of Wikipedia's
pervasive content and create
opportunties to grow Wikipedia in a positive financial growth model to
create and support new communities
and expand the power and reach of the existing communities.
5. The goals of the Community will be expected to be at odds with the
goals of financial growth at times.
6. The community is in fact an "entity" of sorts, separate and distinct
from the Foundation, and any
business ventures which attempt to promote its goals.
7. Businesses and ventures promoting Wikipedia will have a fiduciary
duty to protect the investments of the
Foundation and any investors funding such efforts.
8. Millions of dollars may in time be invested in such endeavors.
9. When a faction of the community decides it does not like a particular
business venture or someone involved, and
resorts to disruptive behavior or other actions to derail or interfere
with the Foundations projects in the real world,
it's not disruption, it's "tortious inteference" and it's actionable
will expose the foundation and community to problems
with investors or stakeholders in these efforts. In other words, it
would call into conflict a balancing of the ventures
fiduciary duty vs. their stated goals in support of the community
iteself. Many ventures would simply back away and make
a decision dealing with the Community is too great a business risk and
simply stop supporting it or fork Wikipedia and try to
steam roller over the Foundation. This is not condusive to positive
growth or the ultimate goal of promoting Wikipedia
and creating opporunities for explosive growth for the foundation.
10. Companies do not make agreements with anonymous email accounts on
gmail or accounts on Wikipedia, they make agreements
with organized entities and identifiable indivduals and stake holders.
11. A business related list would be a good venue. Certainly, the
community could provide input, but such a list would need
moderation by a representative of the Foundation, not a community member
who has no fiduciary duty or responsiblity
to the Foundations policies. Community members should ABSOLUTELY be
allowed participation as they are the
heart and soul of the basic nature of the opporutnities. They should not
be running the list or any other element beyond
their suggestions and contributions to creating new ventures. In other
words, when a non-employee or person without fiduciary
duty attempts to disrupt or lobby against such an effort OUTSIDE of
FOUNDATION CHANNELs, they are out on a limb
and expose all the parties to liablity.

Hope that explains it.

All my love,

Jeff


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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I
> will have to in order
> for folks to get it.
>
> Business 101
> [....]
> Hope that explains it.
That was unnecessary, but OK.

Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
>> If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
>> you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
>> you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
>> dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
>> counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
>>
> I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
And you still find that not enough? Contact with the Wikimedia officials
is exactly and exclusively what you need. And if you're mails are so
business-like, then what's the purpose of sending them to foundation-l,
which is open for everyone to state their opinions? I don't think making
a "business" mailing list would be helpful. Sending mails to relevant
people instead is.

Filip
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
IANAL, but assuming there is a liability issue. We
should create a business list or perhaps a "content
re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in
the sign-up message for this list that it is an open
discussion list and that official requests should be
sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go. I
strongly disagree with the Foundation paying someone
to moderate a public email list.


Birgitte SB

--- "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>
wrote:

> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
> >On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey
> <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>(...) That sort of thing.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >And why can't this be open to the community as
> well? You know, the
> >wiki principle (at least that's what I thought), is
> "keep everything
> >transparent which does not need to be secret". The
> aims of this list
> >as described by you do not seem to need any special
> privacy/secret
> >status.
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> You know, I did not want to address this on this
> list, but it appears I
> will have to in order
> for folks to get it.
>
> Business 101
>
> 1. Businesses have goals with involve creating
> revenue and positive
> growth, in almost all ways identical to
> the communities eventual goals.
> 2. Businesses are protected by laws and have legal
> obligations to their
> customers, partners, the Foundation,
> and other entities and they MUST comply with and
> protect the rights of
> these parties.
> 3. Businesses make decisions based upon goals which
> are designed to
> promote their objectives.
> 4. Wikipedia centric businesses would be expected to
> have goals which
> promote wikipedia content
> in education, business, and attempt to promote the
> spread of Wikipedia's
> pervasive content and create
> opportunties to grow Wikipedia in a positive
> financial growth model to
> create and support new communities
> and expand the power and reach of the existing
> communities.
> 5. The goals of the Community will be expected to be
> at odds with the
> goals of financial growth at times.
> 6. The community is in fact an "entity" of sorts,
> separate and distinct
> from the Foundation, and any
> business ventures which attempt to promote its
> goals.
> 7. Businesses and ventures promoting Wikipedia will
> have a fiduciary
> duty to protect the investments of the
> Foundation and any investors funding such efforts.
> 8. Millions of dollars may in time be invested in
> such endeavors.
> 9. When a faction of the community decides it does
> not like a particular
> business venture or someone involved, and
> resorts to disruptive behavior or other actions to
> derail or interfere
> with the Foundations projects in the real world,
> it's not disruption, it's "tortious inteference" and
> it's actionable
> will expose the foundation and community to problems
> with investors or stakeholders in these efforts. In
> other words, it
> would call into conflict a balancing of the ventures
> fiduciary duty vs. their stated goals in support of
> the community
> iteself. Many ventures would simply back away and
> make
> a decision dealing with the Community is too great a
> business risk and
> simply stop supporting it or fork Wikipedia and try
> to
> steam roller over the Foundation. This is not
> condusive to positive
> growth or the ultimate goal of promoting Wikipedia
> and creating opporunities for explosive growth for
> the foundation.
> 10. Companies do not make agreements with anonymous
> email accounts on
> gmail or accounts on Wikipedia, they make agreements
> with organized entities and identifiable indivduals
> and stake holders.
> 11. A business related list would be a good venue.
> Certainly, the
> community could provide input, but such a list would
> need
> moderation by a representative of the Foundation,
> not a community member
> who has no fiduciary duty or responsiblity
> to the Foundations policies. Community members
> should ABSOLUTELY be
> allowed participation as they are the
> heart and soul of the basic nature of the
> opporutnities. They should not
> be running the list or any other element beyond
> their suggestions and contributions to creating new
> ventures. In other
> words, when a non-employee or person without
> fiduciary
> duty attempts to disrupt or lobby against such an
> effort OUTSIDE of
> FOUNDATION CHANNELs, they are out on a limb
> and expose all the parties to liablity.
>
> Hope that explains it.
>
> All my love,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Birgitte SB wrote:

>IANAL, but assuming there is a liability issue. We
>should create a business list or perhaps a "content
>re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in
>the sign-up message for this list that it is an open
>discussion list and that official requests should be
>sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go. I
>strongly disagree with the Foundation paying someone
>to moderate a public email list.
>
>
>Birgitte SB
>
>
>
This is reasonable and would allow the community to have visibility into
business developments and input and
remove all liabilty from postings to the list under the CDA. It has
worked well for Linux Kernel development
to operate this way. Should work here.

Jeff
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 09:21:59AM -0600, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> It's not a topic that requires a vote from the community or even is
> relevant to the
> community. It was a question of creating a segregated list for business
> related postings
> that quite frankly, don't involve the community.

You're a business, it's your money. I'm sure you can
run majordomo (or other mailinglist tools)
on one of your plentiful servers.

read you soon,
Kim Bruning

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Pat Gunn wrote:

Hi Pat,

I guess the real question here is defining who "we" is. I see "we" as
the whole of planet earth,
not just the current incarnation of the community. As for point 11, when
people are investing money
to see THEIR goals fulfilled, you kindof have to balance all the
concerns of the various players.
Not an easy task.

Linux Kernel development uses an unmoderated list where some very
powerful players interact
from a business world and the internet community worlds and do so very
well. IBM, Novell,
and folks from this very community (Gregory Maxwell for example) all
interact in this model and
have vritually achieved global dominion of OS development and deployment
by finding a common
ground and balancing these enormous conflux of powers.

It works because the pressure for people to act responsilbly is based on
finanacial and business concerns
and support of the various business entities and their acceptance of
technology proposals.

Jeff

>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>>You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I
>>will have to in order
>>for folks to get it.
>>
>>
>
>I believe this is a poor line of reasoning for a bad idea. The
>foundation has certain goals, and these are not always realised
>by the community at large, nor must they all deal with the
>responsibility, fine details, or the work involved in making
>sure the project stays afloat. By and large, the goals of the
>community and those of the foundation coincide though, helped
>by the transparency and (certain amounts of) openness. I am very
>concerned at your implication (in point 9) that nondisruptive
>efforts to suggest that some arrangements are not acceptable to
>the community should be easily overruled by the business interests
>of the foundation. The "Explosive growth" you say should be our
>goal is dangerous in the same way that cancer is -- it can easily
>become a perversion of our hopes and structure in the name of
>size. We must be careful about growth and absolutely
>insistent on as much openness and inclusiveness as possible,
>even when it costs us business opportunities. I am similarly very
>disturbed at your point 11, which suggests that off-list lobbying
>against proposed business ventures is something that we should
>consider verboten or dangerous.
>
>---
>Pat Gunn
>mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
>http://dachte.org
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>
>
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On 06/09/06, Pat Gunn <pgunn@dachte.org> wrote:

> The "Explosive growth" you say should be our
> goal is dangerous in the same way that cancer is -- it can easily
> become a perversion of our hopes and structure in the name of
> size.


Our growth is horribly fast as is and we are barely keeping up with
it. Which is why the downtime page has a PayPal button on it ;-)


- d.
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On 06/09/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:

> We
> should create a business list or perhaps a "content
> re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in
> the sign-up message for this list that it is an open
> discussion list and that official requests should be
> sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go.


This is a *great* idea. And even as someone who writes en:wp articles
and does Foundation stuff and has little interest in running a mirror,
I'd be very interested to know what people do and want to do with our
hard work. The idea of open content is "Use our stuff," after all.

So what do we need for this to happen?


- d.
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Pat Gunn wrote:

>Given that our community is motivated by ideology (not a bad thing --
>idealism is an underestimated thing in today's world), we need to
>be extra careful to not let our goals fall astray.
>
I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
it should be opened to embrace
a broader view of humanity.

Patt, I've managed people and companies for about 20 years, and have had
upwards of 500+
people reporting directly to me at various stages of my career. There
are three things that
motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
earth in career and
life advancement.

Knowledge, Power and Money.

In essense, they are all actually the same thing with regard to the end
result. What people truly desire
in life is FREEDOM to pursue their pursuits of pleasure and their
dreams. For many people, money is freedom
because is gives them security. For others, power is freedom because it
gives them the feeling they have control
over their lives and the lives of others. For a very very small minority
of people, knowledge and the pursuit of
enhancing their intellect and skill gives them the greatest freedom of
all - the power to mould their own destiny
and create new avenues of endeavor on the frontiers of human knowledge.
I personally am in the third
group, and have in my life experienced a freedom few people will ever
know because my skill and knowledge I cultivate
above all else, and power, money and freedom have been the reward --
things I never sought for themselves.

In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
power and not money, I fired them
at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
that people who are motivated by power
and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
collective efforts and will always put themselves
and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
are motivated by money are very
predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
organizations success. Their patterns
are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.

By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
status, etc. a large majority of the current
community are in this first group and are there for the power and
control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
also a lot of folks who are there solely
for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
the folks in the class motivated my money
are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.

My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
various platforms. What I am talking about
is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
absent. An element to concert it into something
that will endure as an institution into the far future.

So when I hear words like "corrupt", "motivated by ideology" all these
things mean "motiviated by power" to me,
and not the collective work of moving an organization into a positive
growth model for long term stability and
financial health. "Show them the door" is exactly what I would do with
any employee I hired who evidenced
power motivated behavior, using your words.

There's room for everyone and none should be discarded, all have value
and Wikipedia says its mission is to reach the
whole world. That means it should embrace the whole world. Including the
missing element in the community at present,
which is a healthy and vibrant business community within it. The power
motivated folks can still be admins in the Community
and other positions of power. The Knowlege pursuers can still edit and
stand with a foot in both worlds. And the Money people
can find new and innovative ways to improve processes and contribute to
avenue which will in fact reach the whole world.

All my love,

Jeff


>I would prefer
>that the foundation bend very little or not at all (absolutely
>no exclusivity arrangements with any business) on these matters.
>If we look to our future audience, we can best serve them by keeping
>the project from being corrupted by the quickest path to growth.
>We don't need to care about anyone else's concerns but the
>foundation and its projects. IMO, if external dealings require
>such secrecy, we should simply show people and companies that
>require such things to the door. I've seen volunteer communities
>destroyed by such things before -- it's an ugly thing.
>
>---
>Pat Gunn
>mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
>http://dachte.org
>If lightning is the anger of the gods, then the gods are concerned
>mostly with trees -- Lao Tze
>
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>
>
>

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Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>You know, I did not want to address this on this list, but it appears I
>will have to in order
>for folks to get it.

I believe this is a poor line of reasoning for a bad idea. The
foundation has certain goals, and these are not always realised
by the community at large, nor must they all deal with the
responsibility, fine details, or the work involved in making
sure the project stays afloat. By and large, the goals of the
community and those of the foundation coincide though, helped
by the transparency and (certain amounts of) openness. I am very
concerned at your implication (in point 9) that nondisruptive
efforts to suggest that some arrangements are not acceptable to
the community should be easily overruled by the business interests
of the foundation. The "Explosive growth" you say should be our
goal is dangerous in the same way that cancer is -- it can easily
become a perversion of our hopes and structure in the name of
size. We must be careful about growth and absolutely
insistent on as much openness and inclusiveness as possible,
even when it costs us business opportunities. I am similarly very
disturbed at your point 11, which suggests that off-list lobbying
against proposed business ventures is something that we should
consider verboten or dangerous.

---
Pat Gunn
mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
http://dachte.org
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
David Gerard wrote:

>On 06/09/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> We
>>should create a business list or perhaps a "content
>>re-user" list and leave it unmoderated. Re-affirm in
>>the sign-up message for this list that it is an open
>>discussion list and that official requests should be
>>sent to Foo@wikimedia or whereever they should go.
>>
>>
>
>
>This is a *great* idea. And even as someone who writes en:wp articles
>and does Foundation stuff and has little interest in running a mirror,
>I'd be very interested to know what people do and want to do with our
>hard work. The idea of open content is "Use our stuff," after all.
>
>So what do we need for this to happen?
>
>

David,

Make the list and I'll move over to it immediately.

Jeff

>
>- d.
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Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>I guess the real question here is defining who "we" is. I see "we" as
>the whole of planet earth,
>not just the current incarnation of the community. As for point 11, when
>people are investing money
>to see THEIR goals fulfilled, you kindof have to balance all the
>concerns of the various players.
>Not an easy task.

Given that our community is motivated by ideology (not a bad thing --
idealism is an underestimated thing in today's world), we need to
be extra careful to not let our goals fall astray. I would prefer
that the foundation bend very little or not at all (absolutely
no exclusivity arrangements with any business) on these matters.
If we look to our future audience, we can best serve them by keeping
the project from being corrupted by the quickest path to growth.
We don't need to care about anyone else's concerns but the
foundation and its projects. IMO, if external dealings require
such secrecy, we should simply show people and companies that
require such things to the door. I've seen volunteer communities
destroyed by such things before -- it's an ugly thing.

---
Pat Gunn
mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
http://dachte.org
If lightning is the anger of the gods, then the gods are concerned
mostly with trees -- Lao Tze

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Thanks Patt,

I appreciate your views too. Part of our growth and path through life is
learning from each other,
and adapting ourselves to being open to everyone's point of view.
There's room for everyone I feel.

All my love,

Jeff

Pat Gunn wrote:

>Jeff,
>I appreciate your explaining your perspective -- it does
>enlighten us with regards to the framework with which
>you work. I still disagree with it, and feel business
>dealings should be kept on a short leash in as open and
>public a view as possible, but I am more comfortable
>"agreeing to disagree" on this point now. I do believe
>that creation of wikimedia-b as you describe would be
>a bad idea.
>
>Take care. (reentering lurk mode)
>
>---
>Pat Gunn
>mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
>http://dachte.org
>There are few things in life that arn't made better with liberal application of
>mustard, or worse with liberal application of ketchup.
> -- Pat Gunn
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>

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Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Jeff,
I appreciate your explaining your perspective -- it does
enlighten us with regards to the framework with which
you work. I still disagree with it, and feel business
dealings should be kept on a short leash in as open and
public a view as possible, but I am more comfortable
"agreeing to disagree" on this point now. I do believe
that creation of wikimedia-b as you describe would be
a bad idea.

Take care. (reentering lurk mode)

---
Pat Gunn
mod: csna, bmcm, bmco, cooa, cona, clpd, coom
http://dachte.org
There are few things in life that arn't made better with liberal application of
mustard, or worse with liberal application of ketchup.
-- Pat Gunn
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
>it should be opened to embrace
>a broader view of humanity.
>
>There are three things that
>motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
>earth in career and life advancement.
>
>Knowledge, Power and Money.
>
>In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
>power and not money, I fired them
>at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
>that people who are motivated by power
>and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
>collective efforts and will always put themselves
>and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
>are motivated by money are very
>predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
>organizations success. Their patterns
>are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.
>
The people who are motivated by power are especially dangerous to those
who already have the power.

Those motivated by "other intangible ideals" (i.e. ideologues) are not
self-serving. They see their ideology as being for the good of the
whole, and will readily sacrifice themselves in order to have their
ideology prevail. They make great suicide bombers, but tend not to stay
in that business for very long.

I agree about the money-motivated, but these are not the people that you
can count on for a lot of imagination. The really bright ones become
MBAs where they can strive for the pinnacle of incompetence. This
permits them to do an excellent job in the most complex of routine tasks.

>By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
>status, etc. a large majority of the current
>community are in this first group and are there for the power and
>control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
>either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
>also a lot of folks who are there solely
>for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
>the folks in the class motivated my money
>are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.
>
The Wikipedia admins who most severly exercise power are little more
than drill sargeants who like everyone to march in step with all arms
swinging in unison to the same height. They are motivated more by order
than by power.

>My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
>motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
>those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
>various platforms. What I am talking about
>is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
>absent. An element to concert it into something
>that will endure as an institution into the far future.
>
Those motivated by knowledge or by altruism tend to pursue their goals
without considering how events around them influence their goals. They
can be frustrated by the power games of the order freaks. They will
listen to reason, and reconsider their views in the light of new
arguments. They are most frustrated when opponents refuse to provide
reasonable arguments for their actions.

Ec

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
Ray Saintonge wrote:

>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>I share with you my views and observations of the current "We" and where
>>it should be opened to embrace
>>a broader view of humanity.
>>
>>There are three things that
>>motivate human beings I have always seen true in my 46 years on planet
>>earth in career and life advancement.
>>
>>Knowledge, Power and Money.
>>
>>In business, anytime I ran across a person who was solely motivated by
>>power and not money, I fired them
>>at the first opportunity. I did so because my experience has taught me
>>that people who are motivated by power
>>and other intangible ideals are dangerous to organizations and
>>collective efforts and will always put themselves
>>and their self-serving desires above the good of the whole. People who
>>are motivated by money are very
>>predictable and easy to manage and are solid contributors to any
>>organizations success. Their patterns
>>are inherently easy to anticipate and accomodate.
>>
>>
>>
>The people who are motivated by power are especially dangerous to those
>who already have the power.
>
>Those motivated by "other intangible ideals" (i.e. ideologues) are not
>self-serving. They see their ideology as being for the good of the
>whole, and will readily sacrifice themselves in order to have their
>ideology prevail. They make great suicide bombers, but tend not to stay
>in that business for very long.
>
>
I put these people in the class of those motivated by the pursuit of
pure knowledge.

>I agree about the money-motivated, but these are not the people that you
>can count on for a lot of imagination. The really bright ones become
>MBAs where they can strive for the pinnacle of incompetence. This
>permits them to do an excellent job in the most complex of routine tasks.
>
>
>
>>By giving people the chance to express power over others with admin
>>status, etc. a large majority of the current
>>community are in this first group and are there for the power and
>>control aspect over Wikipedia's direction by
>>either oppressing others or combining into a cohesive front. There are
>>also a lot of folks who are there solely
>>for the benefit of knowledge and increasing their skill. Almost none of
>>the folks in the class motivated my money
>>are even present or represented. They exist outside of the community.
>>
>>
>>
>The Wikipedia admins who most severly exercise power are little more
>than drill sargeants who like everyone to march in step with all arms
>swinging in unison to the same height. They are motivated more by order
>than by power.
>
>
Also true, but there are those I read about who go on rampages and have
to be desysoped.

>
>
>>My observation of the community is that it is comprised of folks
>>motivated by the pursuit of pure knowledge, and
>>those motivated by desire for power and to use it as a platform for
>>various platforms. What I am talking about
>>is balancing its composition to embrace an element that is currently
>>absent. An element to concert it into something
>>that will endure as an institution into the far future.
>>
>>
>>
>Those motivated by knowledge or by altruism tend to pursue their goals
>without considering how events around them influence their goals. They
>can be frustrated by the power games of the order freaks. They will
>listen to reason, and reconsider their views in the light of new
>arguments. They are most frustrated when opponents refuse to provide
>reasonable arguments for their actions.
>
>
That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
reason.

Jeff

>Ec
>
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>
>

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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
On 06/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:

> That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
> reason.


Most annoying thing about Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects of any
sort: you are obliged to work with people you consider blithering
idiots. It's not optional.

(Hopefully it's good for the soul ;-)


- d.
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Re: Can a wikimedia-b list be setup [ In reply to ]
David Gerard wrote:

>On 06/09/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>That pretty much sums up my past frustrations when folks don't listen to
>>reason.
>>
>>
>
>
>Most annoying thing about Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects of any
>sort: you are obliged to work with people you consider blithering
>idiots. It's not optional.
>
>(Hopefully it's good for the soul ;-)
>
>
Amen brother.

:-)

Jeff

>
>- d.
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