Mailing List Archive

Good gracious! Projects pillaging from another whilst still in Beta?
*DELETING* content (not sharing it) and popping it in elsewhere?

That's a serious, serious problem, if true. I tend to think of removal
of benign content as somewhat heretical, bordering on anarchic. Please
help me understand where we have failed if that is what people think is
acceptable practice.

-B

Amgine wrote:
> A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
> to see addressed.
>
> Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks
> and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if
> this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he
> was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would
> be able to copy them back to that project.
>
> This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from
> Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after
> all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between
> projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the
> potential contributors as well, again something which should not even
> be contemplated in my opinion.
>
> Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
>
>
> Amgine
>
>
>
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>
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I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the
Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There
is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this
namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.

The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states:
"Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off
this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has
been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks'
inclusion criteria."

I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks
community.

Craig

Amgine wrote:
> A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
> to see addressed.
>
> Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks
> and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if
> this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he
> was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would
> be able to copy them back to that project.
>
> This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from
> Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after
> all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between
> projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the
> potential contributors as well, again something which should not even
> be contemplated in my opinion.
>
> Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
>
>
> Amgine
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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On 15-Aug-06, at 12:24 PM, Craig Spurrier wrote:

> I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the
> Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity).
> There
> is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this
> namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from
> Wikibooks.

Thanks for clarifying that. I note, however, that this is not what
was said in IRC. Specifically, the discussion was about textbooks on
Wikibooks. It was not about project pages, or the Wikiversity namespace.

Amgine

Amgine wrote:

> A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
> to see addressed.
>
> Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving
> textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was
> unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from
> en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working
> on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
>
> This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from
> Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are,
> after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook
> between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question
> and the potential contributors as well, again something which should
> not even be contemplated in my opinion.
>
> Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
>
>
> Amgine

We are not talking about moving the textbooks from Wikibooks, but rather
just about everything that is in the "Wikiversity" psuedonamespace on
Wikibooks, and some of the content on Wikibooks that is more for
organization and teaching of Wikiversity courses that is not strictly a
textbook, per se. We are not in any way trying to fork Wikibooks in
this respect, but rather trying to make a distinction between the two
projects.

Much of this is likely to be dealt with in the VfD pages of Wikibooks,
as Wikibooks admins try to come to a grip with what Wikiversity content
is successfully moved to the new Wikiversity site and what is to be left
behind. And as with much of Wikibooks content that has been added over
the years, there is some that has been added and will be added that
really does need to be on other projects and will be done through a
normal transwiki. Wikiversity content will be no different in this context.

I guess in this regard, this is essentially as if the VfD for
Wikiversity is finally successful, but the transwiki is finally taking
place today. It will take some time to deal with the fine details, however.

--
Robert Scott Horning



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Craig Spurrier wrote:

>I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the
>Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There
>is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this
>namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
>
>The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states:
>"Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off
>this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has
>been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks'
>inclusion criteria."
>
>I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks
>community.
>
>Craig
>
>
One admin on Wikibooks actually put a speedy delete on the Wikiversity
pages a few weeks ago, which was the reason for this notice. I don't
know the motivation behind that, but I think it is more people just
trying to be anxious about moving stuff around and not knowing quite how
it was going to be accomplished.

--
Robert Scott Horning



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You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...

On 8/15/06, Robert Scott Horning <robert_horning@netzero.net> wrote:
>
> Craig Spurrier wrote:
>
> >I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the
> >Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There
> >is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this
> >namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
> >
> >The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states:
> >"Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off
> >this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has
> >been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks'
> >inclusion criteria."
> >
> >I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks
> >community.
> >
> >Craig
> >
> >
> One admin on Wikibooks actually put a speedy delete on the Wikiversity
> pages a few weeks ago, which was the reason for this notice. I don't
> know the motivation behind that, but I think it is more people just
> trying to be anxious about moving stuff around and not knowing quite how
> it was going to be accomplished.
>
> --
> Robert Scott Horning
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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James Hare wrote:

>You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
>
>
>
The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar
issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create
the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.

--
Robert Scott Horning



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Robert Scott Horning wrote:
> James Hare wrote:
>> You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
>>
> The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar
> issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create
> the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.

The incubator was set up to keep the "test Wikipedias" in various languages from
cluttering up meta. No particular relation to Wikiversity.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

On 8/15/06, Amgine <amgine@saewyc.net> wrote:
>
> On 15-Aug-06, at 12:24 PM, Craig Spurrier wrote:
>
> > I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the
> > Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity).
> > There
> > is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this
> > namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from
> > Wikibooks.
>
> Thanks for clarifying that. I note, however, that this is not what
> was said in IRC. Specifically, the discussion was about textbooks on
> Wikibooks. It was not about project pages, or the Wikiversity namespace.
>
> Amgine
>

So, what was said on IRC was the following (edited):

[5:26pm] cormaggio: Amgine - wikibooks wikiversity content will be
moved (in as much as is possible and least damaging to wikibooks)
[5:27pm] Amgine: Why would you move content *from* wikibooks, which is
a project where it belongs?
[5:29pm] cormaggio: Amgine - that is the idea, yes - to move the
content to Wikiversity. If people want to move their content back to
wikibooks, to develop textbooks, they are free to do so. We have a
Wikibooks admin prepared to help us with this (Robert_Horning)
[5:29pm] Amgine: I'm sorry: are you going to be *removing* content
from Wikibooks?
[5:30pm] Amgine: Just need that clarified.
[5:30pm] cormaggio: I thought that was what Robert had in mind, yes.
[5:30pm] Amgine: I will be adamantly opposed to removing textbook
content from wikibooks.
[5:31pm] cormaggio: hmmm, but Wikiversity content is not all textbook oriented
[5:33pm] Amgine: Cormaggio: I agree entirely. I would suggest
Wikiversity focus primarily on non-textbook items, and support
Wikibooks's mission for the actual textbooks.
[5:33pm] cormaggio: absolutely Amgine
[5:35pm] NotACow: i see no reason to remove textbook content from wikibooks.
[5:35pm] cormaggio: NotACow - no, we will not be moving textbook content


So, maybe I was misinterpreted, but what I meant was that much of
Wikibooks:Wikiversity content would be moved to Wikiversity. This
would be done providing it was *not* textbook content.

Cormac
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Brion Vibber wrote:

>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>
>
>>James Hare wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar
>>issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create
>>the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.
>>
>>
>
>The incubator was set up to keep the "test Wikipedias" in various languages from
>cluttering up meta. No particular relation to Wikiversity.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>
>
While that may have been your personal justification for making it, the
idea of an incubator project for developing proposed Wikimedia projects
like Wikiversity has been kicking around Meta for more than a year, and
discussion even made it into board meetings as recorded on the minutes.
Indeed a problem still exists where because of the way that the
incubator wiki was set up, that the idea of hosting anything other than
wikipedia tests still is brought into question, and there is yet to be a
serious project that has used the incubator as a test project besides
these test wikipedias.

See Wikikernel, Wikilabs, and Seedwiki on Meta for more details.

--
Robert Scott Horning



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Robert Scott Horning wrote:

>Amgine wrote:
>
>
>>A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
>>to see addressed.
>>
>>Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving
>>textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was
>>unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from
>>en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working
>>on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
>>
>>This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from
>>Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are,
>>after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook
>>between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question
>>and the potential contributors as well, again something which should
>>not even be contemplated in my opinion.
>>
>>Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
>>
>>Amgine
>>
>>
>We are not talking about moving the textbooks from Wikibooks, but rather
>just about everything that is in the "Wikiversity" psuedonamespace on
>Wikibooks, and some of the content on Wikibooks that is more for
>organization and teaching of Wikiversity courses that is not strictly a
>textbook, per se. We are not in any way trying to fork Wikibooks in
>this respect, but rather trying to make a distinction between the two
>projects.
>
>Much of this is likely to be dealt with in the VfD pages of Wikibooks,
>as Wikibooks admins try to come to a grip with what Wikiversity content
>is successfully moved to the new Wikiversity site and what is to be left
>behind. And as with much of Wikibooks content that has been added over
>the years, there is some that has been added and will be added that
>really does need to be on other projects and will be done through a
>normal transwiki. Wikiversity content will be no different in this context.
>
>I guess in this regard, this is essentially as if the VfD for
>Wikiversity is finally successful, but the transwiki is finally taking
>place today. It will take some time to deal with the fine details, however.
>
I can't see why people are in such a hurry to dump this stuff onto
Wikiversity. Wikibooks has rightly complained before when Wikipedia
editors dumped material on Wikibooks just to get rid of it. It would
probably be advisable to at least wait until Wikiversity is out of Beta
before doing this. The Wikiversity community still needs to build its
core before having to devote a lot of time coping with data dumps.

Ec

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Amgine wrote:
> A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
> to see addressed.
>
> Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks
> and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if
> this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was
> sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be
> able to copy them back to that project.
>
> This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks
> would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the
> mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems
> to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential
> contributors as well, again something which should not even be
> contemplated in my opinion.
>
> Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?

Amgine is correct.

The point of reference in the future should be this one :
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiversity/Modified_project_proposal

This proposal was the one which was approved for the creation of
Wikiversity. This proposal makes it clear that both projects should try
their best to cohabit in peace. Wikiversity should not become the new
host provider of wikibooks content, but aim at building a collection of
references for one topic.

For example : textbook, lesson plans, lecture notes, presentation
slides, memory flash cards, listening exercises, educational video etc...

This does not mean that all these materials will be hosted on
Wikiversity. Some may but other material may be found at wikipedia, or
wikibooks and wikisource etc...
For each topic, Wikiversity will be the central place where someone may
find the material available for a topic. If the material is on
Wikibooks, then Wikiversity should only link to the Wikibooks content.

If Wikiversity wishes to double host the content, fine (though it seems
unecessary), but it is excluded that Wikibooks should lose its content
because of Wikiversity activity.

This is within that spirit that the special project committee
recommanded the creation of Wikiversity project.

Anthere


> Amgine
>
>
>
>
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>
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That's what I was thinking: Wikiversity hosts the lesson plans, and the
lesson plans are based on books (courtesy of Wikibooks).

On 8/15/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Amgine wrote:
> > A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like
> > to see addressed.
> >
> > Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks
> > and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if
> > this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was
> > sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be
> > able to copy them back to that project.
> >
> > This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks
> > would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the
> > mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems
> > to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential
> > contributors as well, again something which should not even be
> > contemplated in my opinion.
> >
> > Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
>
> Amgine is correct.
>
> The point of reference in the future should be this one :
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiversity/Modified_project_proposal
>
> This proposal was the one which was approved for the creation of
> Wikiversity. This proposal makes it clear that both projects should try
> their best to cohabit in peace. Wikiversity should not become the new
> host provider of wikibooks content, but aim at building a collection of
> references for one topic.
>
> For example : textbook, lesson plans, lecture notes, presentation
> slides, memory flash cards, listening exercises, educational video etc...
>
> This does not mean that all these materials will be hosted on
> Wikiversity. Some may but other material may be found at wikipedia, or
> wikibooks and wikisource etc...
> For each topic, Wikiversity will be the central place where someone may
> find the material available for a topic. If the material is on
> Wikibooks, then Wikiversity should only link to the Wikibooks content.
>
> If Wikiversity wishes to double host the content, fine (though it seems
> unecessary), but it is excluded that Wikibooks should lose its content
> because of Wikiversity activity.
>
> This is within that spirit that the special project committee
> recommanded the creation of Wikiversity project.
>
> Anthere
>
>
> > Amgine
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On 15-Aug-06, at 5:27 PM, James Hare wrote:

> That's what I was thinking: Wikiversity hosts the lesson plans, and
> the
> lesson plans are based on books (courtesy of Wikibooks).

Lesson plans, multi-media content, workbooks, experiment suggestions,
even art materials are all a part of modern textbooks. Usually these
are a companion cd/dvd, or sold as "Teacher's book" or "Curriculum
kit" by the publisher. Unless Wikibooks has defined itself
exclusively as the dead-tree only textbook project, I can't imagine
why these would not be hosted Wikibooks.

Amgine