Mailing List Archive: complaining to ISPs

complaining to ISPs

geniice at gmail

Aug 3, 2006, 6:39 PM

Post #1 of 26 (2386 views)

I've been putting together a complaint to send to Tiscali about one of
their subscribers breaching their TOS on wikipedia (may not work but
worth a try). The problem is that the person caused most of the
trouble they did while logged in. Thus checkuser is required to get
hold of the IPs. Releasing these IPs would require foundation
permission. Tiscali would also likely need to be able to contact the
foundation to confirm any claims. I believe this gives us three
options.

I send Tiscali the email without IPs and with the foundation's contact
information. This is likely to archive nothing since Tiscali would
have to contact the foundation before starting an investigation

The foundation gives me the IPs. This would allow Tiscali to begin an
investigation but they would probably still have to contact the
foundation. This has the disadvantage that the foundation has to
release the IPs to me (even though I already know the range and
Tiscali IPs don't tell you much I can understand the foundation not
wanting to do this).

The foundation co opts my email and sends it itself. This allows it to
keep the IP data private and removes possible barriers. On the other
hand this could result in more work for the foundation.

I assume this situation will arise in future thus I am trying to start
a general discussion as well as seeking answers for this specific
case.

--
geni
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

cartmanau at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 6:39 AM

Post #2 of 26 (2376 views)

On 8/4/06, geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The foundation co opts my email and sends it itself. This allows it to
> keep the IP data private and removes possible barriers. On the other
> hand this could result in more work for the foundation.

Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with this?
If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the dirty
work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
Cheers,
Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

cartmanau at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 6:40 AM

Post #3 of 26 (2359 views)

On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/4/06, geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The foundation co opts my email and sends it itself. This allows it to
> > keep the IP data private and removes possible barriers. On the other
> > hand this could result in more work for the foundation.
>
>
> Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
> this?
> If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the dirty
> work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> Cheers,
> Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>
>
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

geniice at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 6:47 AM

Post #4 of 26 (2360 views)

On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with this?
> If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the dirty
> work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> Cheers,
> Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)

While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.

--
geni
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 9:00 AM

Post #5 of 26 (2363 views)

geni wrote:

>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with this?
>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the dirty
>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>Cheers,
>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>
>>
>
>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>
>
>
Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:

1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
made him more persistent.
3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
WHOIS lookup everytime
the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that ISP.

I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
network) from this ISP range. It was
blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".

I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
them
at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.

Jeff
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 9:03 AM

Post #6 of 26 (2360 views)

Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

>geni wrote:
>
>
>
>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with this?
>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the dirty
>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>>Cheers,
>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>
>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
>made him more persistent.
>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
>WHOIS lookup everytime
>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that ISP.
>
>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
>network) from this ISP range. It was
>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>
>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>them
>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>
>Jeff
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
BTW, Wow is an active Wikipedia user and a member of the Linux Community.

Jeff
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

fredbaud at ctelco

Aug 4, 2006, 9:04 AM

Post #7 of 26 (2358 views)

On Aug 4, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

> BTW, Wow is an active Wikipedia user and a member of the Linux
> Community.
>
> Jeff

May not be the same guy. I think our WOW is in Canada.

Fred

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

fredbaud at ctelco

Aug 4, 2006, 9:08 AM

Post #8 of 26 (2374 views)

On Aug 4, 2006, at 7:39 AM, Nathan Carter wrote:

> On 8/4/06, geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> The foundation co opts my email and sends it itself. This allows
>> it to
>> keep the IP data private and removes possible barriers. On the other
>> hand this could result in more work for the foundation.
>>
>
>
> Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal
> with this?
> If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do
> the dirty
> work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> Cheers,
> Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)

Assuming this is an English Wikipedia thing, this could become an
arbitration committee matter.

Fred

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

geniice at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 9:19 AM

Post #9 of 26 (2354 views)

On 8/4/06, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@ctelco.net> wrote:
> Assuming this is an English Wikipedia thing, this could become an
> arbitration committee matter.
>
> Fred

So arbcom should handle complaints to ISPs? Should I forward the email to you?

--
geni
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

fredbaud at ctelco

Aug 4, 2006, 9:45 AM

Post #10 of 26 (2365 views)

On Aug 4, 2006, at 10:19 AM, geni wrote:

> On 8/4/06, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@ctelco.net> wrote:
>
>> Assuming this is an English Wikipedia thing, this could become an
>> arbitration committee matter.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>
> So arbcom should handle complaints to ISPs? Should I forward the
> email to you?
>
>
> --
> geni
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

We might be able to once we know what is going on. Yes, I will
introduce the matter to the arbcom.

Fred

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 10:20 AM

Post #11 of 26 (2354 views)

Fred Bauder wrote:

>On Aug 4, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>BTW, Wow is an active Wikipedia user and a member of the Linux
>>Community.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>May not be the same guy. I think our WOW is in Canada.
>
>Fred
>
>
Fred,

I considered this and the possibly this username is a public moniker
folks use due to the notability
to vandlize other wiki's. Whomever it is appears to have automated
software to perform their
edits as the page moves occur in batches and are must faster than can be
done by a human being.

Jeff

>_______________________________________________
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>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

messedrocker at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 12:54 PM

Post #12 of 26 (2371 views)

Oooh! War of attrition!

James approves.

On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> geni wrote:
>
> >On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
> this?
> >>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> >>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
> dirty
> >>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> >>Cheers,
> >>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
> >likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
> >to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
> >
> >
> >
> Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
> (they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
> method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
> WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
> gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>
> 1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
> visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
> 2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
> made him more persistent.
> 3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
> WHOIS lookup everytime
> the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
> address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
> 4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
> vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
> blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that ISP.
>
> I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
> network) from this ISP range. It was
> blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
> Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
> before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>
> I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
> persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
> them
> at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
> the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

messedrocker at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 1:14 PM

Post #13 of 26 (2372 views)

Jeff Merkey -- defender of American Indians, defeater of Asian ISPs.

Wikipedia could technically set up such an extreme system, but it would
cause too many people to be blocked at once, and thus less people can edit
(Jimmy-Jimmy seems to like allowing everyone to edit). Also, such high
levels of blocking could give us a bad name.

But I'd implement it.

On 8/4/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> James Hare wrote:
>
> >Oooh! War of attrition!
> >
> >James approves.
> >
> >
> I had to do the same thing to chinanet and several other asian ISPs as
> well -- they remain blocked -- permanently.
>
> Jeff
>
> >
> >On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>geni wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>this?
> >>
> >>
> >>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> >>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>dirty
> >>
> >>
> >>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> >>>>Cheers,
> >>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
> >>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
> >>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
> >>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
> >>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
> >>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
> >>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
> >>
> >>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
> >>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
> >>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
> >>made him more persistent.
> >>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
> >>WHOIS lookup everytime
> >>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
> >>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
> >>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
> >>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
> >>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that
> ISP.
> >>
> >>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
> >>network) from this ISP range. It was
> >>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
> >>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
> >>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
> >>
> >>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
> >>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
> >>them
> >>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
> >>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
> >>
> >>Jeff
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>foundation-l mailing list
> >>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> >foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

messedrocker at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 1:30 PM

Post #14 of 26 (2382 views)

Yes... stating on a page "VERIZON IS BANNED!" for example would definitely
make them scared and start taking actions against jerks.

Developers, are you listening? Jeff's got it right!

On 8/4/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> James Hare wrote:
>
> >Jeff Merkey -- defender of American Indians, defeater of Asian ISPs.
> >
> >Wikipedia could technically set up such an extreme system, but it would
> >cause too many people to be blocked at once, and thus less people can
> edit
> >(Jimmy-Jimmy seems to like allowing everyone to edit). Also, such high
> >levels of blocking could give us a bad name.
> >
> >But I'd implement it.
> >
> >
>
> Well, the only way to get an ISPs attention is to it them in their
> pocketbooks. If their users cannot use
> the site and are "BANNED" on a public list -- you can very well bet they
> will jump to start swatting
> these gadfly vandals and pretty quick.
>
> Jeff
>
> >
> >On 8/4/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>James Hare wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Oooh! War of attrition!
> >>>
> >>>James approves.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I had to do the same thing to chinanet and several other asian ISPs as
> >>well -- they remain blocked -- permanently.
> >>
> >>Jeff
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>geni wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>this?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
> >>>>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>dirty
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
> >>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
> >>>>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
> >>>>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown
> notices
> >>>>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
> >>>>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
> >>>>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
> >>>>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
> >>>>
> >>>>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
> >>>>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
> >>>>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it
> only
> >>>>made him more persistent.
> >>>>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that
> does
> >>>>WHOIS lookup everytime
> >>>>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
> >>>>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
> >>>>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
> >>>>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE
> FIREWALL
> >>>>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>ISP.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
> >>>>network) from this ISP range. It was
> >>>>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
> >>>>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not
> long
> >>>>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
> >>>>
> >>>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
> >>>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will
> unblock
> >>>>them
> >>>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism
> at
> >>>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jeff
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>foundation-l mailing list
> >>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>foundation-l mailing list
> >>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>foundation-l mailing list
> >>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >foundation-l mailing list
> >foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 1:43 PM

Post #15 of 26 (2356 views)

James Hare wrote:

>Oooh! War of attrition!
>
>James approves.
>
>
I had to do the same thing to chinanet and several other asian ISPs as
well -- they remain blocked -- permanently.

Jeff

>
>On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>geni wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
>>>>
>>>>
>>this?
>>
>>
>>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
>>>>
>>>>
>>dirty
>>
>>
>>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
>>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
>>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
>>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
>>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>>
>>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
>>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
>>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
>>made him more persistent.
>>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
>>WHOIS lookup everytime
>>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
>>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
>>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
>>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
>>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that ISP.
>>
>>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
>>network) from this ISP range. It was
>>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
>>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
>>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>>
>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>them
>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>
>>Jeff
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 1:48 PM

Post #16 of 26 (2371 views)

James Hare wrote:

>Oooh! War of attrition!
>
>James approves.
>
>

One other thing I have done is create two server arrays -- one external
WikiGadugi network, and an internal one. The reason
"recent changes" (áŽ¾ážáŽ¬ á—áŽ¦ááŸá´áá—) never shows activity and the site
undergoes database purges and updates is the actual
community server is behind a proxy -- people have to be given access. I
take the translated XML dumps which are redumped
from the actual community server and importDump them into the external
server for public viewing. I did this for two reasons.

1. Vandals get smashed and their bogus junk gets blasted out of the
database every two weeks.
2. My community has privacy of their editing history to the General
Public (but not to each other).

Most of the content on Wikipedia talk pages that gets scraped by Google
really does not belong in the public view, or anywhere else public.
It's public to my community, not to the outside world.

Jeff

>
>On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>geni wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
>>>>
>>>>
>>this?
>>
>>
>>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
>>>>
>>>>
>>dirty
>>
>>
>>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
>>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
>>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
>>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
>>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>>
>>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
>>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
>>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
>>made him more persistent.
>>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
>>WHOIS lookup everytime
>>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
>>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
>>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
>>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
>>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that ISP.
>>
>>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
>>network) from this ISP range. It was
>>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
>>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
>>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>>
>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>them
>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>
>>Jeff
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 1:50 PM

Post #17 of 26 (2365 views)

James Hare wrote:

>Jeff Merkey -- defender of American Indians, defeater of Asian ISPs.
>
>Wikipedia could technically set up such an extreme system, but it would
>cause too many people to be blocked at once, and thus less people can edit
>(Jimmy-Jimmy seems to like allowing everyone to edit). Also, such high
>levels of blocking could give us a bad name.
>
>But I'd implement it.
>
>

Well, the only way to get an ISPs attention is to it them in their
pocketbooks. If their users cannot use
the site and are "BANNED" on a public list -- you can very well bet they
will jump to start swatting
these gadfly vandals and pretty quick.

Jeff

>
>On 8/4/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>James Hare wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oooh! War of attrition!
>>>
>>>James approves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I had to do the same thing to chinanet and several other asian ISPs as
>>well -- they remain blocked -- permanently.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>geni wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>>>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>dirty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>>>>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>>>>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
>>>>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
>>>>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
>>>>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
>>>>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>>>>
>>>>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
>>>>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
>>>>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
>>>>made him more persistent.
>>>>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
>>>>WHOIS lookup everytime
>>>>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
>>>>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
>>>>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
>>>>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
>>>>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that
>>>>
>>>>
>>ISP.
>>
>>
>>>>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
>>>>network) from this ISP range. It was
>>>>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
>>>>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
>>>>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>>>>
>>>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>>>them
>>>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 2:05 PM

Post #18 of 26 (2359 views)

James Hare wrote:

>Jeff Merkey -- defender of American Indians, defeater of Asian ISPs.
>
>Wikipedia could technically set up such an extreme system, but it would
>cause too many people to be blocked at once, and thus less people can edit
>(Jimmy-Jimmy seems to like allowing everyone to edit). Also, such high
>levels of blocking could give us a bad name.
>
>But I'd implement it.
>
>

I'll post the extension code at wikimedia.org. I am working on shipment
of several Wikipedia appliances
to one of our first customers and some solera shipment this afternoon
:-) :-) :-)

I'll cleanup the code this evening and get it posted over the weekend.

:-)

Jeff

>
>On 8/4/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>James Hare wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oooh! War of attrition!
>>>
>>>James approves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I had to do the same thing to chinanet and several other asian ISPs as
>>well -- they remain blocked -- permanently.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 8/4/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>geni wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 8/4/06, Nathan Carter <cartmanau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is there already a section within the foundation which can deal with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>If not is some form of "abuse reporting" procedure needed?
>>>>>>I think the best way to do it is for the foundation itself to do the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>dirty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>work so to speak, which should avoid any privacy issues.
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Nathan Carter (Cartman02au)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>While that may be an option in the short term in the long run this is
>>>>>likely to become more common and thus it is probably best that there
>>>>>to be a way to deal with this below foundation level.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Most of the ISP's ignore these reports, including DCMA takedown notices
>>>>(they just throw them in the trash). One very effective
>>>>method that both works and gets their attention I have used at
>>>>WikiGadugi dissuades 100% of vandals, gets the ISP's attention, and
>>>>gets the problem fixed immediately. It is as follows:
>>>>
>>>>1. When I first setup WikiGadugi, I had the distinct pleasure of being
>>>>visited by WillyonWheels from the UK.
>>>>2. I tried the whole page move vandal, blocking, blah blah blah, it only
>>>>made him more persistent.
>>>>3. I wrote a shim program into IP tables as a MediaWiki addon that does
>>>>WHOIS lookup everytime
>>>>the IP address gets used to write a page and saves not only the IP
>>>>address for the write, but the ISP range as well.
>>>>4. The shim checks a file not visible where I record IP addresses for
>>>>vandal addresses and autoblocks the entire ISP IP range AT THE FIREWALL
>>>>blocking both reading and writing, shutting down all access for that
>>>>
>>>>
>>ISP.
>>
>>
>>>>I had someone from the UK email me (my email servers are on a separate
>>>>network) from this ISP range. It was
>>>>blueyonder.uk and apparently, other universities were studying the
>>>>Cherokee translation and wondered why the site was down. It was not long
>>>>before the ISP notified me a certain account was "suspended".
>>>>
>>>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>>>them
>>>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jackdt at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 2:58 PM

Post #19 of 26 (2372 views)

> I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
> persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
> them
> at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
> the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>
> Jeff

Jeff, you shoulda made this a board election issue - you could
probably have gotten a ton of votes from all the good editors the
vandals are slowly driving off.
--
Jeandré
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

geniice at gmail

Aug 4, 2006, 3:03 PM

Post #20 of 26 (2374 views)

On 8/4/06, Jack <jackdt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeff, you shoulda made this a board election issue - you could
> probably have gotten a ton of votes from all the good editors the
> vandals are slowly driving off.
> --
> Jeandré

However all the votes from the people who use NTL, Tiscali, AOL,
earthlink, whatever would rather counterbalance that

--
geni
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 3:58 PM

Post #21 of 26 (2368 views)

Jack wrote:

>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>them
>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>Jeff, you shoulda made this a board election issue - you could
>probably have gotten a ton of votes from all the good editors the
>vandals are slowly driving off.
>
>
I think the other candidates can certainly use the same platform if they
wish and I'll throw the code
over the wall to the Foundation.

I decided not to run for the position because,

A) I don't have time to travel all over the place at my own expense and
run three companies too, plus WikiGadugi.
B) There are some folks in the community who would make a public stink
and Jimbo's life mierable were I to be elected/appointed,
and fracture and polarize the community (not that big a concern but not
a good starting point).
C) The Bylaws setup a 3-2 voting structure where the other board members
are always going to get overruled on any vote that
is not 5-0.
D) The B&O Insurance won't cover any claims for the foundation board of
trustees and I would have to get a policy from a group that handles
non-profits like the foundation.
E) I have too many irons in the fire as it is, and the WikiGadugi
project and my other interests will suffer.
F) I am an excellent public speaker and look good in a suit, but a
really good PR person is what's needed to be successful in this role
who is young and vibrant to give it an excellent public image, not an
old Cherokee Indian Grandfather.

:-)

Jeff

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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup

Aug 4, 2006, 4:20 PM

Post #22 of 26 (2372 views)

Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>Jack wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I would suggest creating a banned ISP listing with ranges based on
>>>persistent vandals, and when they suspend the accounts, you will unblock
>>>them
>>>at the firewall. It fixed my vandalism problems. I have 0% vandalism at
>>>the WikiGadugi site and I stuck it to WillyOnWheels.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Jeff, you shoulda made this a board election issue - you could
>>probably have gotten a ton of votes from all the good editors the
>>vandals are slowly driving off.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I think the other candidates can certainly use the same platform if they
>wish and I'll throw the code
>over the wall to the Foundation.
>
>I decided not to run for the position because,
>
>A) I don't have time to travel all over the place at my own expense and
>run three companies too, plus WikiGadugi.
>B) There are some folks in the community who would make a public stink
>and Jimbo's life mierable were I to be elected/appointed,
>and fracture and polarize the community (not that big a concern but not
>a good starting point).
>C) The Bylaws setup a 3-2 voting structure where the other board members
>are always going to get overruled on any vote that
>is not 5-0.
>D) The B&O Insurance won't cover any claims for the foundation board of
>trustees and I would have to get a policy from a group that handles
>non-profits like the foundation.
>E) I have too many irons in the fire as it is, and the WikiGadugi
>project and my other interests will suffer.
>F) I am an excellent public speaker and look good in a suit, but a
>really good PR person is what's needed to be successful in this role
>who is young and vibrant to give it an excellent public image, not an
>old Cherokee Indian Grandfather.
>
>:-)
>
>Jeff
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
If they wanted me to do something like "project coordinator Native
American Languages Program",
I would do that and travel around and visit the tribes and promote
Wikipedia and that would be something that
would dovetail nicely, I do not think I can or should be on their Board.
I sit on too many Boards already
and when you are on more than three, your B&O insurance goes through the
roof ....

Jeff
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

lars at aronsson

Aug 5, 2006, 2:18 AM

Post #23 of 26 (2341 views)

James Hare wrote:
> Yes... stating on a page "VERIZON IS BANNED!" for example would definitely
> make them scared and start taking actions against jerks.

Oh, really? Have you tried? Are you speaking from experience?

--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

messedrocker at gmail

Aug 6, 2006, 1:35 PM

Post #24 of 26 (2351 views)

Surprisingly, I've never been unable to edit due to my IP being blocked (for
someone else's wrongdoing). So no, I'm not speaking from experience.

On 8/5/06, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:
>
> James Hare wrote:
> > Yes... stating on a page "VERIZON IS BANNED!" for example would
> definitely
> > make them scared and start taking actions against jerks.
>
> Oh, really? Have you tried? Are you speaking from experience?
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: complaining to ISPs [ In reply to ]

fredbaud at ctelco

Aug 6, 2006, 2:47 PM

Post #25 of 26 (2347 views)

On Aug 5, 2006, at 3:18 AM, Lars Aronsson wrote:

> James Hare wrote:
>
>> Yes... stating on a page "VERIZON IS BANNED!" for example would
>> definitely
>> make them scared and start taking actions against jerks.
>>
>
> Oh, really? Have you tried? Are you speaking from experience?

Better to try first to enlist them on our side. We might be able to
force the issue, but it is an unpleasant and possibly ineffective way
to go.

Fred

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