Mailing List Archive

On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Birgitte SB wrote:

> You may want to be sure and explain exactly what the
> GFDL entails in this case. There is no guarantee that
> any work that is done under this license will be
> treated in a sacred manner by downstream users.
> Non-speakers would be within full rights to take the
> fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a new
> website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
> with a computer" will be able to edit it.
>
> Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine. It is
> alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
> name two. However many people accostomed to those
> cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
> culture. I think you are focusing too much on the
> negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
> inter-culture collaboration. I hope your endeavor
> succeeds in any event.
>
> Birgitte SB

The Cherokee, particularly, have historically been willing to share
their wisdom.

Fred

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Oldak Quill wrote:

>I think it is false to say that a particular language can never be
>presented in a secular, NPOV fashion.
>

I would tend to agree with you here, but in the case of the Ute groups,
its not our language and not our place
to make such an assessement based upon their beliefs. We should never
take a stance on the validity of any
person or groups beliefs as to whether they are right or wrong, just
accept that these are their sincere
beliefs and go from there.


>Of course, it can be the case
>that most of the speakers are unwilling to present their langauge in
>this fashion (this is not a criticism). Wikipedia will forever be
>incompatable with systematic POV, but we would certainly like
>something worked out.
>

The issue is that the culture and language of native peoples are
virtually inseparable from one another. The culture
IS the language. Most native peoples (us included) believe the language
contains words of power that express
and spiritual and physical as one, since in our belief systems, we make
no distincition between the sacred and the
secular -- we view both as a interwoven tapestry. See
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Clans for a good
explanation of this. These basic beliefs permeate Native American
Culture and create artificial hurdles to efforts
like this one. I am making progress because they trust me due to the
fact I understand why they feel this way and
they know my word is written on the wind (they know I wont disrespect
their wishes).

>Are there no Cherokeeans who are willing to work
>with the existing Wikipedia model to raise the profile of their
>langauge/culture?
>
>

I am willing but the Anikutani are not willing to do so nor are the
Religious folks in Oklahoma. One of our linguists
recentl quit the project (I could care less she wasn't helping much
anyway) because the leaders at the Stokes
Stomp Dance grounds slyly told her she would not lead the dances if she
participated in this project and
allowed our language to be made part of a machine translator. Most of
our leaders do not share this view and
are behind the project, including the Tribal Council, Dr. Durbin
Feeling, Dr, Delso, and a lot of our educators,
however, the more radical religious elements have been raising a lot of
issues about it. Tough, the light moves
forward ...

Jeff



>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would be to work with
>>>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are you being active
>>>>in seeking members?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the Wikipedia culture and
>>>there are going to be issues
>>>with the way the site operates. So far every Cherokee who has edited on
>>>WP has gotten banned
>>>or scrutinized to the point they leave.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>(NOTE: This comment pertains to people who were raised in the Cherokee
>>Culture and speak the language, not
>>Cherokee folks who were raised in American Culture and may have Cherokee
>>ancestry but do not know their
>>culture or the language -- there are a lot of folks in this category on
>>WP today and they seem to be fine, but their
>>contributions are nil to nothing in this area becuase they do not know
>>the culture and for all intents and purposes,
>>they are not immersed in our culture or grew up in it -- I did).
>>
>>
>>
>>> We have a concept of respecting
>>>the space of a person
>>>who is working on something.
>>>
>>>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer to come in and
>>>disrupt someone else's work and this
>>>doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on mutual respect, and I
>>>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>>>premise people on WP should be the same way. This has not been the
>>>course followed. I think WP should
>>>continue and we can do hat we need with the content -- off site where
>>>our cultural issues can coexist
>>>peacefully.
>>>
>>>You wont get many native people editing here due to the way the site is
>>>organized -- respect for others is
>>>lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok though, we can still
>>>both be successful if we figure out a way
>>>to create dual environments where folks can be successful.
>>>
>>>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute, Shoshone, and Unita
>>>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>>>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so I am making
>>>excellent progress. They also expressed a desire
>>>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their review of the issues
>>>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>>>cultures. The Ute's believe their language is sacred and they don't
>>>want non speakers working on it for religious
>>>reasons. You are going to find this is a prevalent attitude among
>>>Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow their
>>>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due to their religious
>>>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Most Wikimedia projects don't translate "Wikipedia", "Wiktionary", and
>>>>>>>>"Wikimedia", they transliterate them. Even non-Latin alphabets do
>>>>>>>>this: Russian Wikipedia is called "Википедию" which transliterates as
>>>>>>>>Ve-I-Ka-I-Pe-Ye-De-I-Ya (those are the names of the letters, at
>>>>>>>>least). Does Cherokee have some kind of formal transliteration system?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 12/07/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The name should be:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>ᏗᎪᏪᎵ ᎦᏣᏄᎳ
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>(digoweli gatsanula)
>>>>>>>>>"the books = pedia " " that are fast = wiki "
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>to match the actual meanings of the words "wiki" and "pedia".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The current name of the site, while catchy, is not accurate for the
>>>>>>>>>language, and was synthesized.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Just a suggestion...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes. it does have one for words like this, but taking potshots at the
>>>>>>>name can create something you do not intend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's look at it:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wi-gi-que-di-ya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>wi - (negative imperfect past tense)
>>>>>>>gi - to combine
>>>>>>>que - incomplete verb root about an animal
>>>>>>>di - plural for a non living object
>>>>>>>ya - broad area of concern (means "pertains to or covers a broad area or
>>>>>>>topic)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>While it is interesting some of the points and counter points about this
>>>>>>issue, isn't this something better left to be discussed on project pages
>>>>>>by participants and made as a local decision? At least I would feel
>>>>>>more comfortable with people who are involved with the development of
>>>>>>the project (aka Cherokee Wikipedia content developers) instead of
>>>>>>getting European or Austrialian attitudes from people who may never even
>>>>>>add a single word to that project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This whole discussion strikes me as something very similar to when the
>>>>>>name Wikipedia itself was coined, along with all of the other major
>>>>>>sister projects and their names.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>There are no participants on the site. The site has been dead for
>>>>>months. Probably because NONE OF THEM SPEAK CHEROKEE.
>>>>>Perhaps best thing is to close the site completely and I'll just manage
>>>>>the fork off Wikipedia.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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Birgitte SB wrote:

>You may want to be sure and explain exactly what the
>GFDL entails in this case. There is no guarantee that
>any work that is done under this license will be
>treated in a sacred manner by downstream users.
>Non-speakers would be within full rights to take the
>fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a new
>website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
>with a computer" will be able to edit it.
>
>
Which is why the translations will be intertribal only and not accessible
to the general public in the case of the Uto-Aztecan translations -- at
their
request. The Foundation will have access to it, contingent on the
concessions
the Ute's are willing to make.

There are those involved who want it accessible to everyone, but their
leaders
make the final call. They have agreed that all Ute Indians will have
access to
the site. It doesn't violate the GFDL, its their language and they are
providing me
all four dialects, which this is the firs time in their history they
have done so

Ute, Unite Ute, Uncompaghre Ute, and the the ancient Deep Ute Language. And
unknown to the general public, the Ute's, like most tribes have a
written language
using syllabaric lithographs for their language. Some examples of it can
be viewed
as pictographs in nine-mile canyon in Utah -- they have never shared it
before.

So as near as I can tell, I have made some very good progress very
quickly. The Foundation
is sensitive and respectful fo these types of projects.

>Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine. It is
>alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
>name two. However many people accostomed to those
>cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
>culture.
>

> I think you are focusing too much on the
>negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
>inter-culture collaboration.
>
No, I am a WP advocate, so don't misconstrue what I say. I am
just coldly and directly stating the reality. Also, There is little to
no benefit to interculture collaboration if you don't speak the language
of what's presented, so the consumers of the content will invariably be the
tribes themselves, and not the general community, so I think it's a moot
point.

>I hope your endeavor
>succeeds in any event.
>
>Birgitte SB
>
>--- "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would
>>>
>>>
>>be to work with
>>
>>
>>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are
>>>
>>>
>>you being active
>>
>>
>>>in seeking members?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the
>>Wikipedia culture and
>>there are going to be issues
>>with the way the site operates. So far every
>>Cherokee who has edited on
>>WP has gotten banned
>>or scrutinized to the point they leave. We have a
>>concept of respecting
>>the space of a person
>>who is working on something.
>>
>>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer
>>to come in and
>>disrupt someone else's work and this
>>doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on mutual
>>respect, and I
>>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>>premise people on WP should be the same way. This
>>has not been the
>>course followed. I think WP should
>>continue and we can do hat we need with the content
>>-- off site where
>>our cultural issues can coexist
>>peacefully.
>>
>>You wont get many native people editing here due to
>>the way the site is
>>organized -- respect for others is
>>lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok
>>though, we can still
>>both be successful if we figure out a way
>>to create dual environments where folks can be
>>successful.
>>
>>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute,
>>Shoshone, and Unita
>>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so
>>I am making
>>excellent progress. They also expressed a desire
>>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their
>>review of the issues
>>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>>cultures. The Ute's believe their language is
>>sacred and they don't
>>want non speakers working on it for religious
>>reasons. You are going to find this is a prevalent
>>attitude among
>>Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow their
>>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due
>>to their religious
>>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey
>>>
>>>
>><jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Most Wikimedia projects don't translate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>"Wikipedia", "Wiktionary", and
>>
>>
>>>>>>>"Wikimedia", they transliterate them. Even
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>non-Latin alphabets do
>>
>>
>>>>>>>this: Russian Wikipedia is called
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>"Ð'икипедиÑZ(" which transliterates as
>>
>>
>>>>>>>Ve-I-Ka-I-Pe-Ye-De-I-Ya (those are the names of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>the letters, at
>>
>>
>>>>>>>least). Does Cherokee have some kind of formal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>transliteration system?
>>
>>
>>>>>>>On 12/07/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>><jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The name should be:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>á?--áZ(ªá?ªáZ(µ áZ(¦á?£á?"áZ(³
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(digoweli gatsanula)
>>>>>>>>"the books = pedia " " that are fast = wiki "
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>to match the actual meanings of the words
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>"wiki" and "pedia".
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>The current name of the site, while catchy, is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>not accurate for the
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>language, and was synthesized.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Just a suggestion...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes. it does have one for words like this, but
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>taking potshots at the
>>
>>
>>>>>>name can create something you do not intend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Let's look at it:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wi-gi-que-di-ya
>>>>>>
>>>>>>wi - (negative imperfect past tense)
>>>>>>gi - to combine
>>>>>>que - incomplete verb root about an animal
>>>>>>di - plural for a non living object
>>>>>>ya - broad area of concern (means "pertains to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>or covers a broad area or
>>
>>
>>>>>>topic)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>While it is interesting some of the points and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>counter points about this
>>
>>
>>>>>issue, isn't this something better left to be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>discussed on project pages
>>
>>
>>>>>by participants and made as a local decision? At
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>least I would feel
>>
>>
>>>>>more comfortable with people who are involved
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>with the development of
>>
>>
>>>>>the project (aka Cherokee Wikipedia content
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>developers) instead of
>>
>>
>>>>>getting European or Austrialian attitudes from
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>people who may never even
>>
>>
>>>>>add a single word to that project.
>>>>>
>>>>>This whole discussion strikes me as something
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>very similar to when the
>>
>>
>>>>>name Wikipedia itself was coined, along with all
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>of the other major
>>
>>
>>>>>sister projects and their names.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>There are no participants on the site. The site
>>>>
>>>>
>>has been dead for
>>
>>
>>>>months. Probably because NONE OF THEM SPEAK
>>>>
>>>>
>>CHEROKEE.
>>
>>
>>>>Perhaps best thing is to close the site completely
>>>>
>>>>
>>and I'll just manage
>>
>>
>>>>the fork off Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>
>>
>>
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
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>
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On 7/13/06, Oldak Quill <oldakquill@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it is false to say that a particular language can never be
> presented in a secular, NPOV fashion.

There are languages out there that aparently don't include the concept
of counting.

There are indeed limits on what languages can express


--
geni
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--- "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>
wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
>
> >You may want to be sure and explain exactly what
> the
> >GFDL entails in this case. There is no guarantee
> that
> >any work that is done under this license will be
> >treated in a sacred manner by downstream users.
> >Non-speakers would be within full rights to take
> the
> >fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a
> new
> >website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
> >with a computer" will be able to edit it.
> >
> >
> Which is why the translations will be intertribal
> only and not accessible
> to the general public in the case of the Uto-Aztecan
> translations -- at
> their
> request. The Foundation will have access to it,
> contingent on the
> concessions
> the Ute's are willing to make.
>
> There are those involved who want it accessible to
> everyone, but their
> leaders
> make the final call. They have agreed that all Ute
> Indians will have
> access to
> the site. It doesn't violate the GFDL, its their
> language and they are
> providing me
> all four dialects, which this is the firs time in
> their history they
> have done so
>
> Ute, Unite Ute, Uncompaghre Ute, and the the ancient
> Deep Ute Language. And
> unknown to the general public, the Ute's, like most
> tribes have a
> written language
> using syllabaric lithographs for their language.
> Some examples of it can
> be viewed
> as pictographs in nine-mile canyon in Utah -- they
> have never shared it
> before.
>
> So as near as I can tell, I have made some very good
> progress very
> quickly. The Foundation
> is sensitive and respectful fo these types of
> projects.
>

You certainly may do your best to restrict "access" to
the end product as you are planning. This is what
many libraries do regarding rare PD texts. However if
*one* person who is given access decides for any
reason to make a copy public, the cat is out of the
bag. For example a library may have strong
restrictions on access. They do not allow their
material scanned or photocopied you are only allowed
to read it within one room. However I could type a
transcription on a laptop over the course of several
weeks and put it on Wikisource. Assuming this
material is in the public domain, the library can do
nothing in such in event as they only own the
particular book not the copyright.

This could one day happen to the Ute's works. Once it
is made public in part or whole, it can be treated in
any way allowed under the GFDL. The foundation has no
control over it, however respectful they wish to be.
I am not trying to encourage action of this sort. But
everyone involved needs to be aware of the
ramifications of using copyleft material. This may
seem an unlikely possibilty at the moment, but over
time it more likely than not this material will become
public. Although it may be a hundred years till that
happens. I respect what you are trying to do and the
Ute as well. I would hate for something like this to
happen and the Ute to feel blindsided by such a turn
of events.


> >Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine. It
> is
> >alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
> >name two. However many people accostomed to those
> >cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
> >culture.
> >
>
> > I think you are focusing too much on the
> >negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
> >inter-culture collaboration.
> >
> No, I am a WP advocate, so don't misconstrue what I
> say. I am
> just coldly and directly stating the reality. Also,
> There is little to
> no benefit to interculture collaboration if you
> don't speak the language
> of what's presented, so the consumers of the content
> will invariably be the
> tribes themselves, and not the general community, so
> I think it's a moot
> point.
>

I am not trying to miscontrue your comments, please
correct me where I have. I believe it is too easy to
say "the Wikipedia way is alien to the culture of X
and they will not be able to work under it's
policies." Because X can be filled with many things
which *have* adapted to WP culture. As I said above
WP is very contrary to capitalist and academic
cultures. Although there are always individuals who
cannot adapt, I do not like to see this generalized to
an entire culture. However, I always found it easy
to work within the policies here, so it I may be
completely wrong in this.

> >I hope your endeavor
> >succeeds in any event.
> >
> >Birgitte SB
> >
> >--- "Jeff V. Merkey"
> <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Oldak Quill wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site
> would
> >>>
> >>>
> >>be to work with
> >>
> >>
> >>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia.
> Are
> >>>
> >>>
> >>you being active
> >>
> >>
> >>>in seeking members?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the
> >>Wikipedia culture and
> >>there are going to be issues
> >>with the way the site operates. So far every
> >>Cherokee who has edited on
> >>WP has gotten banned
> >>or scrutinized to the point they leave. We have a
> >>concept of respecting
> >>the space of a person
> >>who is working on something.
> >>
> >>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer
> >>to come in and
> >>disrupt someone else's work and this
> >>doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on
> mutual
> >>respect, and I
> >>believe WP and Wales operate on the
> >>premise people on WP should be the same way. This
> >>has not been the
> >>course followed. I think WP should
> >>continue and we can do hat we need with the
> content
> >>-- off site where
> >>our cultural issues can coexist
> >>peacefully.
> >>
> >>You wont get many native people editing here due
> to
> >>the way the site is
> >>organized -- respect for others is
> >>lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok
> >>though, we can still
> >>both be successful if we figure out a way
> >>to create dual environments where folks can be
> >>successful.
> >>
> >>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute,
> >>Shoshone, and Unita
> >>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
> >>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia,
> so
> >>I am making
> >>excellent progress. They also expressed a desire
> >>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their
> >>review of the issues
> >>with how the site works -- its alien to most
> native
> >>cultures. The Ute's believe their language is
> >>sacred and they don't
> >>want non speakers working on it for religious
> >>reasons. You are going to find this is a
> prevalent
> >>attitude among
> >>Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow
> their
> >>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's
> due
> >>to their religious
> >>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
> >>
> >>Jeff

<snip>

Birgitte SB

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Fred Bauder wrote:

>On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Birgitte SB wrote:
>
>
>
>>You may want to be sure and explain exactly what the
>>GFDL entails in this case. There is no guarantee that
>>any work that is done under this license will be
>>treated in a sacred manner by downstream users.
>>Non-speakers would be within full rights to take the
>>fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a new
>>website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
>>with a computer" will be able to edit it.
>>
>>Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine. It is
>>alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
>>name two. However many people accostomed to those
>>cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
>>culture. I think you are focusing too much on the
>>negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
>>inter-culture collaboration. I hope your endeavor
>>succeeds in any event.
>>
>>Birgitte SB
>>
>>
>
>The Cherokee, particularly, have historically been willing to share
>their wisdom.
>
>Fred
>
>
>
Correct, Not true of most other tribes however ....

Jeff

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Birgitte SB wrote:

>
>You certainly may do your best to restrict "access" to
>the end product as you are planning. This is what
>many libraries do regarding rare PD texts. However if
>*one* person who is given access decides for any
>reason to make a copy public, the cat is out of the
>bag. For example a library may have strong
>restrictions on access. They do not allow their
>material scanned or photocopied you are only allowed
>to read it within one room. However I could type a
>transcription on a laptop over the course of several
>weeks and put it on Wikisource. Assuming this
>material is in the public domain, the library can do
>nothing in such in event as they only own the
>particular book not the copyright.
>
>This could one day happen to the Ute's works. Once it
>is made public in part or whole, it can be treated in
>any way allowed under the GFDL. The foundation has no
>control over it, however respectful they wish to be.
>I am not trying to encourage action of this sort. But
>everyone involved needs to be aware of the
>ramifications of using copyleft material. This may
>seem an unlikely possibilty at the moment, but over
>time it more likely than not this material will become
>public. Although it may be a hundred years till that
>happens. I respect what you are trying to do and the
>Ute as well. I would hate for something like this to
>happen and the Ute to feel blindsided by such a turn
>of events.
>
>

That's the Ute's issue to manage, not mine or the Foundations. I am here
to promote the pervasiveness of WP content and bring to the Native Peoples.
What thye do with it is their own affair. I expect it will become public
at some
point, but that's not my call.

>I am not trying to miscontrue your comments, please
>correct me where I have. I believe it is too easy to
>say "the Wikipedia way is alien to the culture of X
>and they will not be able to work under it's
>policies." Because X can be filled with many things
>which *have* adapted to WP culture. As I said above
>WP is very contrary to capitalist and academic
>cultures. Although there are always individuals who
>cannot adapt, I do not like to see this generalized to
>an entire culture. However, I always found it easy
>to work within the policies here, so it I may be
>completely wrong in this.
>
>
>
Wikipedia has been around for 6 years, Native Cultures have been around
for about 12,000 years.
I expect we will still be here 1,000 years from now. Hopefully so will
WP, but I expect it will
evolve over time and little resemble what we have today in 1,000 years.
Our people (and most tribes)
have a very long term view of things, and those views are not easily
influenced by next years
internet fad. :-)

That being said, the fact that several Native Tribes is willing to
support such a projects with WP content
is a huge endorsement of the project and the site. The Foundation should
be very proud of itself.

Jeff
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geni wrote:

> Well wiki is suposed to come from fast. Pedia probably comes
> from the greek for something like "general education". So the
> direct translation into english would be something like "fast
> general education"

The intellectual equivalent of fast food?


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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Jeff V. Merkey wrote:

>Oldak Quill wrote:
>
>
>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would be to work with
>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are you being active
>>in seeking members?
>>
>>
>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the Wikipedia culture and
>there are going to be issues
>with the way the site operates. So far every Cherokee who has edited on
>WP has gotten banned
>or scrutinized to the point they leave. We have a concept of respecting
>the space of a person who is working on something.
>
I guess this is a question of what you mean by Wikipedia culture. The
concept of respect is a big part of it. The English Wikipedia just has
a lot of ravens running around trying to impose it.

>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer to come in and
>disrupt someone else's work and this
>doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on mutual respect, and I
>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>premise people on WP should be the same way. This has not been the
>course followed. I think WP should
>continue and we can do hat we need with the content -- off site where
>our cultural issues can coexist peacefully.
>
Mutual respect is not a function of an editor's age. There can just as
easily be wise youth as there can be foolish elders.

>You wont get many native people editing here due to the way the site is
>organized -- respect for others is
>lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok though, we can still
>both be successful if we figure out a way
>to create dual environments where folks can be successful.
>
I'm sure it's not the only reason they stay away. But the reason that
you cite for the absence of first nations people can just as easily
apply to people from other cultures, including ones whose only language
is English.

>I am meeting with the tribal council of the Ute, Shoshone, and Unita
>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so I am making
>excellent progress. They also expressed a desire
>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their review of the issues
>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>cultures.
>
I guess this depends on what you mean by "how the site works". I would
certainly not encourage machine translations; the results are often
something that makes native speakers laugh. Although technical material
about how the site works is probably best translated, beyond that each
language Wikipedia (or other project) develops its own culture.

>The Ute's believe their language is sacred and they don't
>want non speakers working on it for religious
>reasons. You are going to find this is a prevalent attitude among
>Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow their
>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due to their religious
>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>
I have no basis for making comments specific to the Utes, but the
linkage between language and culture is a well known one. This kind of
connection where language was a part of the introduction to a culture's
mysteries is even a common theme in European cultures. If it's meant to
be the Ute material will come in its own time.

Ec

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Ray Saintonge wrote:

>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would be to work with
>>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are you being active
>>>in seeking members?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the Wikipedia culture and
>>there are going to be issues
>>with the way the site operates. So far every Cherokee who has edited on
>>WP has gotten banned
>>or scrutinized to the point they leave. We have a concept of respecting
>>the space of a person who is working on something.
>>
>>
>>
>I guess this is a question of what you mean by Wikipedia culture. The
>concept of respect is a big part of it. The English Wikipedia just has
>a lot of ravens running around trying to impose it.
>
>
More like swift birds of prey, not intellectual ravens, I've got several
sets of talon marks on my
keyboard from WP experiences to show. :-)

>
>
>>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer to come in and
>>disrupt someone else's work and this
>>doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on mutual respect, and I
>>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>>premise people on WP should be the same way. This has not been the
>>course followed. I think WP should
>>continue and we can do hat we need with the content -- off site where
>>our cultural issues can coexist peacefully.
>>
>>
>>
>Mutual respect is not a function of an editor's age. There can just as
>easily be wise youth as there can be foolish elders.
>
The whole power admin thing is out of hand on the site. I think the energy
of peoples karma can come home to roost, good and bad. WP is a lot like
the trading floor of
the New York Stock Exchange when folks get going. Sound like someone we
all know and love? :-)

>
>
>
>
>>You wont get many native people editing here due to the way the site is
>>organized -- respect for others is
>>lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok though, we can still
>>both be successful if we figure out a way
>>to create dual environments where folks can be successful.
>>
>>
>>
>I'm sure it's not the only reason they stay away. But the reason that
>you cite for the absence of first nations people can just as easily
>apply to people from other cultures, including ones whose only language
>is English.
>
>
One main reason is a lot of them are disinterested and don't have the
resources. There are also
political and religous issues as well for a lot of our folks.

>
>
>>I am meeting with the tribal council of the Ute, Shoshone, and Unita
>>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so I am making
>>excellent progress. They also expressed a desire
>>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their review of the issues
>>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>>cultures.
>>
>>
>>
>I guess this depends on what you mean by "how the site works". I would
>certainly not encourage machine translations; the results are often
>something that makes native speakers laugh. Although technical material
>about how the site works is probably best translated, beyond that each
>language Wikipedia (or other project) develops its own culture.
>
>
>
Well, this machine translation and the software is being done by a
Native speaker, and since the template is my brain for how the
translations are done in software, one could say I translated them with
a machine assist due to volume, so I guess one could say they
were done by a Native Speaker and member of the culture. Once they have
a large volume of content to edit, I think we are ok.

There have been a few words I've had to adapt to. I use a link parser
for english decomposition then take the decomposed strings
of morphemes and remap and tense them into Cherokee. Cherokee has a
rigid structure so this makes it a lot easier to do. I do proofread and
the latest run is now at 98% completeness and accuracy. I am shooting
for 100% by the end of the summer.

>>The Ute's believe their language is sacred and they don't
>>want non speakers working on it for religious
>>reasons. You are going to find this is a prevalent attitude among
>>Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow their
>>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due to their religious
>>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>>
>>
>>
>I have no basis for making comments specific to the Utes, but the
>linkage between language and culture is a well known one. This kind of
>connection where language was a part of the introduction to a culture's
>mysteries is even a common theme in European cultures. If it's meant to
>be the Ute material will come in its own time.
>
>
Correct. Not my call. I expect some of their own ambitious folks will
drive that to happen. We just need to
give them the space to come to that conclusion on their own.

Jeff

>Ec
>
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>
>

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