Mailing List Archive: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo

Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo

robert_horning at netzero

Nov 25, 2005, 7:08 AM

Post #1 of 22 (4247 views)

I've already complained about what Jimbo has been doing on Wikibooks, so
this isn't news.

Several of the Wikibooks that Jimbo was complaining about were deleted
by him with the admin status he gave himself. That by itself is OK, but
he did it with a total disregard to the fact that ongoing community
discussion about the modules is going on, and a complete ignorance of
what it means to delete a Wikibook in its entirety. Deleting Wikibooks
is a very involved process, and removing [[b:Jokebook]] is going to be
something that will take several hours to complete by a competent admin
and deleting the front page is only going to make things worse.

I don't want to get into an edit war with of all people Jimbo himself,
but this IMHO has gone way too far. If he wants to serve some sort of
political agenda and disregard the genuine efforts of the community that
is building Wikimedia projects like Wikibooks, so be it. He can write
everything himself there if he wants to as well.

So long Wikimedia and all of the people here. I have tried. I hope
things improve for the better in the future.

I hereby resign my position as admin on Wikibooks and I anticipate that
I will be banned there as well. Good luck in the future in ever trying
to find people to keep this project going.

--
Robert Scott Horning

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

brian0918 at gmail

Nov 25, 2005, 8:08 AM

Post #2 of 22 (4249 views)

Well, as long as you're not over-dramatic abou...

Robert Scott Horning wrote:

> I've already complained about what Jimbo has been doing on Wikibooks,
> so this isn't news.
>
> Several of the Wikibooks that Jimbo was complaining about were deleted
> by him with the admin status he gave himself. That by itself is OK,
> but he did it with a total disregard to the fact that ongoing
> community discussion about the modules is going on, and a complete
> ignorance of what it means to delete a Wikibook in its entirety.
> Deleting Wikibooks is a very involved process, and removing
> [[b:Jokebook]] is going to be something that will take several hours
> to complete by a competent admin and deleting the front page is only
> going to make things worse.
>
> I don't want to get into an edit war with of all people Jimbo himself,
> but this IMHO has gone way too far. If he wants to serve some sort of
> political agenda and disregard the genuine efforts of the community
> that is building Wikimedia projects like Wikibooks, so be it. He can
> write everything himself there if he wants to as well.
>
> So long Wikimedia and all of the people here. I have tried. I hope
> things improve for the better in the future.
>
> I hereby resign my position as admin on Wikibooks and I anticipate
> that I will be banned there as well. Good luck in the future in ever
> trying to find people to keep this project going.
>
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

jwales at wikia

Nov 25, 2005, 8:49 AM

Post #3 of 22 (4234 views)

Robert Scott Horning wrote:
> Several of the Wikibooks that Jimbo was complaining about were deleted
> by him with the admin status he gave himself. That by itself is OK, but
> he did it with a total disregard to the fact that ongoing community
> discussion about the modules is going on, and a complete ignorance of
> what it means to delete a Wikibook in its entirety. Deleting Wikibooks
> is a very involved process, and removing [[b:Jokebook]] is going to be
> something that will take several hours to complete by a competent admin
> and deleting the front page is only going to make things worse.

No, not in complete ignorance, and certainly not in disregard to
anything. Indeed, the reason I only deleted the front page was
specifically to make sure that I wasn't doing anything that would be too
difficult to reverse.

> I don't want to get into an edit war with of all people Jimbo himself,
> but this IMHO has gone way too far. If he wants to serve some sort of
> political agenda and disregard the genuine efforts of the community that
> is building Wikimedia projects like Wikibooks, so be it. He can write
> everything himself there if he wants to as well.

? Political agenda? Do you mean my insistence that a book advocating
white power is not appropriate for any Wikimedia project is a political
agenda? If it is, I plead guilty. NPOV is non-negotiable.

> So long Wikimedia and all of the people here. I have tried. I hope
> things improve for the better in the future.
>
> I hereby resign my position as admin on Wikibooks and I anticipate that
> I will be banned there as well. Good luck in the future in ever trying
> to find people to keep this project going.

Why would you be banned? Why resign as an admin? I don't really
understand this at all.

--Jimbo
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

yann at forget-me

Nov 25, 2005, 12:22 PM

Post #4 of 22 (4242 views)

Hi,

IÂ really think that this Jokebook should be deleted from Wikibooks.

1. Wikibooks is mean to host educational content and textbooks.Â There is no
way that jokes could be included for this purpose.
2. Many jokes are offensive and don't follow the NPOV rule.

If contributors from the project are not able to enforce the basic rules, then
others have to do it.

Regards,

Yann

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

walter at vankalken

Nov 25, 2005, 8:15 PM

Post #5 of 22 (4226 views)

Yann Forget wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I really think that this Jokebook should be deleted from Wikibooks.
>
>1. Wikibooks is mean to host educational content and textbooks. There is no
>way that jokes could be included for this purpose.
>2. Many jokes are offensive and don't follow the NPOV rule.
>
>If contributors from the project are not able to enforce the basic rules, then
>others have to do it.
>
>
Why delete the jokebook? Earning my bread from cmedy I certainly see it
could be used as an educational tool for people wanting to make their
bread as a comedian.

Waerth/Walter
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

puddlduk at gmail

Nov 25, 2005, 9:17 PM

Post #6 of 22 (4240 views)

On 11/25/05, Walter van Kalken <walter@vankalken.net> wrote:
> Yann Forget wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I really think that this Jokebook should be deleted from Wikibooks.
> >
> >1. Wikibooks is mean to host educational content and textbooks. There is no
> >way that jokes could be included for this purpose.
> >2. Many jokes are offensive and don't follow the NPOV rule.
> >
> >If contributors from the project are not able to enforce the basic rules, then
> >others have to do it.
> >
> >
> Why delete the jokebook? Earning my bread from cmedy I certainly see it
> could be used as an educational tool for people wanting to make their
> bread as a comedian.
>
> Waerth/Walter

Can these be moved to Wikicities?
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

beesley at gmail

Nov 25, 2005, 10:06 PM

Post #7 of 22 (4242 views)

> > Why delete the jokebook? Earning my bread from cmedy I certainly see it
> > could be used as an educational tool for people wanting to make their
> > bread as a comedian.
>
> Can these be moved to Wikicities?

There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
the page histories.

Angela
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

delirium at hackish

Nov 28, 2005, 12:49 PM

Post #8 of 22 (4230 views)

Jimmy Wales wrote:

>? Political agenda? Do you mean my insistence that a book advocating
>white power is not appropriate for any Wikimedia project is a political
>agenda? If it is, I plead guilty. NPOV is non-negotiable.
>
>
This is a red herring, and I think you know better than to think anyone
is seriously arguing that. Nobody is arguing compromising NPOV---the
issue is over *what* subject matter is appropriate, not whether it will
be treated in a neutral manner, which of course it will be. It appears
to be your position that only "serious" subject matter is acceptable for
Wikibooks, an opinion not shared by everyone.

-Mark

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

wikilegal at inbox

Nov 29, 2005, 4:01 AM

Post #9 of 22 (4226 views)

On 11/26/05, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Why delete the jokebook? Earning my bread from cmedy I certainly see it
> > > could be used as an educational tool for people wanting to make their
> > > bread as a comedian.
> >
> > Can these be moved to Wikicities?
>
> There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> the page histories.
>
> Angela

It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
the case. Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
your advertisements off this mailing list.

Anthony
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 29, 2005, 4:27 AM

Post #10 of 22 (4229 views)

Hoi,
Calling what Angela says unethical is something that I strongly object to.
Why would it be unethical to show that there are options when the jokebook
IS going to be removed. She gives an answer to a direct question; she even
points out what the problems are.

What I object to is that you do not assume good faith. I do not mind that
you oppose what Jimbo decreed, but it is no excuse to accuse Angela of being
unethical.. Shame !!

Thanks,
GerardM

On 11/29/05, Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal@inbox.org> wrote:
>
> On 11/26/05, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Why delete the jokebook? Earning my bread from cmedy I certainly see
> it
> > > > could be used as an educational tool for people wanting to make
> their
> > > > bread as a comedian.
> > >
> > > Can these be moved to Wikicities?
> >
> > There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> > jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> > Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> > its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> > since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> > the page histories.
> >
> > Angela
>
> It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
> Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
> the case. Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
> your advertisements off this mailing list.
>
> Anthony
> _______________________________________________
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>

Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

walter at vankalken

Nov 29, 2005, 4:41 AM

Post #11 of 22 (4236 views)

>It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
>Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
>the case. Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
>your advertisements off this mailing list.
>
She is just offering a suggestion for a solution. Obviously yu are
against it but it is far from unethical to propose it. And I feel that
accusing Angela of that is going a bit to far.

Walter/Waerth
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

maveric149 at yahoo

Nov 29, 2005, 7:10 AM

Post #12 of 22 (4240 views)

--- Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal@inbox.org> wrote:
> On 11/26/05, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> > jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> > Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> > its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> > since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> > the page histories.
> >
> It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
> Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
> the case.

Jokebooks are completely out of place in Wikibooks because they do not serve a
valid educational purpose. A textbook on comedy that had example jokes in it
would be welcome, however. This type of distinction was decided on when I
helped found Wikibooks, so Jimbo is not acting by executive fiat. He is simply
trying to put that project back on track.

> Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
> your advertisements off this mailing list.

That is totally uncalled for and I think you owe Angela an apology. Angela is
just mentioning a valid alternative place for the content to be placed. Are you
aware of another wiki joke book where the deleted Wikibooks jokebook could
comfortably go? If not, then keep your unfair attacks off the mailing lists. If
so, then please just add that information as an alternative, not as part of an
attack.

-- mav

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

wikilegal at inbox

Nov 29, 2005, 9:25 AM

Post #13 of 22 (4243 views)

On 11/29/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal@inbox.org> wrote:
> > On 11/26/05, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> > > jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> > > Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> > > its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> > > since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> > > the page histories.
> > >
> > It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
> > Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
> > the case.
>
> Jokebooks are completely out of place in Wikibooks because they do not serve a
> valid educational purpose. A textbook on comedy that had example jokes in it
> would be welcome, however. This type of distinction was decided on when I
> helped found Wikibooks, so Jimbo is not acting by executive fiat. He is simply
> trying to put that project back on track.
>
> > Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
> > your advertisements off this mailing list.
>
> That is totally uncalled for and I think you owe Angela an apology. Angela is
> just mentioning a valid alternative place for the content to be placed. Are you
> aware of another wiki joke book where the deleted Wikibooks jokebook could
> comfortably go? If not, then keep your unfair attacks off the mailing lists. If
> so, then please just add that information as an alternative, not as part of an
> attack.
>
> -- mav

I'm not going to apologize to Angela for that statement. I stand by
it. This message board is not the place to advertise Wikicities.

That said, I'm taking a break from posting to the message boards for
the rest of the week.

Anthony
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

trodel at gmail

Nov 29, 2005, 11:20 AM

Post #14 of 22 (4249 views)

All

Please review,
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Votes_for_undeletion#The_Manual_of_Crime,
on
"The Manual of Crime" - this is so absurd and contrary to the mission of
wikibooks that I can't believe it is still there.

In addition to not having any class for which it could be a textbook, it is
subject to subtle vandalism of the type pointed out by Whiteknight:

> I want to draw everybody's attention to some quotes from the manual of
> crime that got it in trouble in the first place:
>
*
>
> Many rapists use a gun or a knife to threaten their victims with bodily
> harm to keep them compliant. You may hear things like "stop, please" but
> don't let that discourage you. Tonight is your night. Don't let anything
> stand in your way.*
>
Tonight is your night"? This isnt a textbook, and this isn't going to teach
> anybody, nor is it going to make anybody any more safe by knowing this
> stuff. This book is disgusting, plain and simple. Now, I would not be
> against a book entitled "How to Avoid Crime", or "How not to be a victim of
> crime*",* or "how to survive a violent attack", or something like that.
> This book however is a blot on the wiki project, and needs to be deleted. So
> help me, I will get jimbo in here to delete this one personally if the vote
> here doesnt reach a *delete* concensus. --Whiteknight<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Whiteknight>
> T <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User_talk:Whiteknight>C<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Whiteknight>
> E <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Whiteknight> 18:52, 29
> November 2005 (UTC)

I agree this is a blot on the wikiproject. Those that seem to think Jimbo's
actions are an abuse, please read the comments on the VfUnD - and help get
this project focused through reasoned debate or the board, as a trustee of
our reputation, may be forced to take unilateral action again.

Jim
--
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even appreciated, but love is never wasted"
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

Nov 29, 2005, 11:59 AM

Post #15 of 22 (4230 views)

Could the issue of whether jokebook is appropriate for Wikibooks or not
be discussed on Wikibooks, please? Thank you.

Robert's mail was only sent to this group to point out action taken by
Jimmy that, in his view, was an abuse of power and authority. If anyone
wishes to follow up on that, please do so here. If not, find a better
place for your remarks than foundation-l. We should *not* be discussing
the wikibook itself here. It is not a foundation matter, it's an
internal problem of the English Wikibooks and should be (and is being,
from what I read) delt with there.

--
Best,
Åukasz 'TOR' Garczewski

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

puddlduk at gmail

Nov 29, 2005, 1:15 PM

Post #16 of 22 (4241 views)

> > > Can these be moved to Wikicities?
> >
> > There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> > jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> > Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> > its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> > since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> > the page histories.
> >
> > Angela
>
> It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
> Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
> the case. Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
> your advertisements off this mailing list.
>
> Anthony
> _______________________________________________

Angela didn't make this suggestion, I did. She just answered my question.

And even if Wikicities did make this suggestion, so what, it's GFDL.

Don't be a jerk, Anthony
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

delirium at hackish

Nov 29, 2005, 2:46 PM

Post #17 of 22 (4232 views)

Daniel Mayer wrote:

>Jokebooks are completely out of place in Wikibooks because they do not serve a
>valid educational purpose. A textbook on comedy that had example jokes in it
>would be welcome, however. This type of distinction was decided on when I
>helped found Wikibooks, so Jimbo is not acting by executive fiat. He is simply
>trying to put that project back on track.
>
>
I may be misremembering, but I don't recall an explicit and narrow
requirement that Wikibooks be "educational" when it was set up, and
certainly not "educational" in the narrow sense of "something that a
university would teach". Of course textbooks were a major sort of book
that people had in mind, but I don't recall anyone saying that *only*
textbooks would be permitted (not to mention defining what constitutes a
"textbook"!).

Instead, I recall a focus mostly centered around *format*---Wikibooks
was to be a place for book-like things that were of a detail, length, or
tone (e.g. how-tos or lengthy narrative exposition) unsuitable for an
encyclopedia article and therefore unsuitable for Wikipedia, but still
useful as information in some sense. I took as a possibly mistaken
implicit assumption that the *content* was to be basically the same as
Wikipedia---anything verifiable and neutral.

-Mark

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

delirium at hackish

Nov 29, 2005, 2:58 PM

Post #18 of 22 (4245 views)

Delirium wrote:

> I may be misremembering, but I don't recall an explicit and narrow
> requirement that Wikibooks be "educational" when it was set up, and
> certainly not "educational" in the narrow sense of "something that a
> university would teach". Of course textbooks were a major sort of
> book that people had in mind, but I don't recall anyone saying that
> *only* textbooks would be permitted (not to mention defining what
> constitutes a "textbook"!).

Some empirical evidence for this:
-- The "about" page has never said it is limited to
textbooks---textbooks are only one part of the list of things that
Wikibooks is for
-- Some of the earliest Wikibooks are non-textbook but informational
books, such as videogame walkthroughs

-Mark

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

kelvSYC at shaw

Nov 29, 2005, 7:03 PM

Post #19 of 22 (4251 views)

> Some empirical evidence for this:
> -- The "about" page has never said it is limited to textbooks---
> textbooks are only one part of the list of things that Wikibooks is
> for

And it was greatly opposed by many in the Wikibooks community - when
[[User:Aya]] became a bureaucrat, that was one of the first things
that changed, IIRC (it was this user that put down "anything found in
your library" line). In the user's critique of Wikibooks, the user
felt that the project was a) too narrow in scope, and that b) many of
its users ignored it.

> -- Some of the earliest Wikibooks are non-textbook but
> informational books, such as videogame walkthroughs

... which many consider as being inappropriate for Wikibooks and
should be transfered to Wikicities (I happen to be in the opposition,
though). As a matter of fact, there is a growing movement to either
make Wikibooks a Wikicities clone (by, say, adopting its policies) or
to just move all Wikibooks content to Wikicities.

The fact is that bold moves are needed to clean Wikibooks up, and the
reason that I left the Wikibooks community was that I couldn't see
myself in the new Wikibooks, in whatever shape it may be.
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

saintonge at telus

Nov 30, 2005, 1:48 AM

Post #20 of 22 (4244 views)

Delirium wrote:

> Daniel Mayer wrote:
>
>> Jokebooks are completely out of place in Wikibooks because they do
>> not serve a
>> valid educational purpose. A textbook on comedy that had example
>> jokes in it
>> would be welcome, however. This type of distinction was decided on
>> when I
>> helped found Wikibooks, so Jimbo is not acting by executive fiat. He
>> is simply
>> trying to put that project back on track.
>
> I may be misremembering, but I don't recall an explicit and narrow
> requirement that Wikibooks be "educational" when it was set up, and
> certainly not "educational" in the narrow sense of "something that a
> university would teach". Of course textbooks were a major sort of
> book that people had in mind, but I don't recall anyone saying that
> *only* textbooks would be permitted (not to mention defining what
> constitutes a "textbook"!).
>
> Instead, I recall a focus mostly centered around *format*---Wikibooks
> was to be a place for book-like things that were of a detail, length,
> or tone (e.g. how-tos or lengthy narrative exposition) unsuitable for
> an encyclopedia article and therefore unsuitable for Wikipedia, but
> still useful as information in some sense. I took as a possibly
> mistaken implicit assumption that the *content* was to be basically
> the same as Wikipedia---anything verifiable and neutral.

This is essentially the way I remember it too. I'm sure that if Mav sees
it differently he should be able to cite something to support his facts.

Ec

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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

wikilegal at inbox

Dec 4, 2005, 6:21 AM

Post #21 of 22 (4233 views)

On 11/29/05, Daniel Mayer <maveric149@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> --- Anthony DiPierro <wikilegal@inbox.org> wrote:
> > On 11/26/05, Angela <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There is a comedy Wikicity at <http://comedy.wikicities.com> where
> > > jokes can be added if it is decided that they are not suitable for any
> > > Wikimedia project. It would be best to wait until Wikicities upgrades
> > > its version of MediaWiki before doing any sort of mass import though,
> > > since we'd need [[Special:Import]] to be working in order to retain
> > > the page histories.
> > >
> > It hasn't been decided that jokebooks aren't suitable for any
> > Wikimedia project. Jimbo has declared by executive fiat that this is
> > the case.
>
> Jokebooks are completely out of place in Wikibooks because they do not serve a
> valid educational purpose. A textbook on comedy that had example jokes in it
> would be welcome, however. This type of distinction was decided on when I
> helped found Wikibooks, so Jimbo is not acting by executive fiat. He is simply
> trying to put that project back on track.
>
> > Your suggestion is quite plainly unethical, Angela. Keep
> > your advertisements off this mailing list.
>
> That is totally uncalled for and I think you owe Angela an apology. Angela is
> just mentioning a valid alternative place for the content to be placed. Are you
> aware of another wiki joke book where the deleted Wikibooks jokebook could
> comfortably go? If not, then keep your unfair attacks off the mailing lists. If
> so, then please just add that information as an alternative, not as part of an
> attack.
>
> -- mav

After further reflection, you're right. I was wrong for making those
statements, and I apologize to both Angela and Jimbo for the
statements I made.

Anthony
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Re: Deletion of Wikibooks content by Jimbo [ In reply to ]

beesley at gmail

Dec 4, 2005, 6:29 AM

Post #22 of 22 (4241 views)

> After further reflection, you're right. I was wrong for making those
> statements, and I apologize to both Angela and Jimbo for the
> statements I made.

Thank you for the apology, Anthony. I appreciate it. Thanks also to
those who defended me on this list. My intention was certainly not to
advertise.

Angela
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