Mailing List Archive

Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data
Recently, I reported on a simple study of how likely one was to
encounter recent vandalism in Wikipedia based on selecting articles at
random and using revert behavior as a proxy for recent vandalism.

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2009-August/054171.html

One of the key limitations of that work was that it was looking at
articles selected at random from the pool of all existing page titles.
That approach was of the most immediate interest to me, but it didn't
directly address the likelihood of encountering vandalism based on the
way that Wikipedia is actually used because the selection of articles
that people choose to visit is highly non-random.

I've now redone that analysis with a crude traffic based weighting.
For traffic information I used the same data stream used by
http://stats.grok.se. That data is recorded hourly. For simplicity I
chose 20 hours at random from the last eight months and averaged those
together to get a rough picture of the relative prominence of pages.
I then chose a selection of 30000 articles at random with their
probability of selection proportional to the traffic they received,
and repeated the prior analysis previously described. (Note that this
has the effect of treating the prominence of each page as a constant
over time. In practice we know some pages rise to prominence while
other fall down, but I am assuming the average pattern is still a good
enough approximation to be useful.)

From this sample I found 5,955,236 revert events in 38,096,653 edits.
This is an increase of 29 times in edit frequency and 58 times the
number of revert events that were found from a uniform sampling of
pages. I suspect it surprises no one that highly trafficked pages are
edited more often and subject to more vandalism than the average page,
though it might not have been obvious that the the ratio of reverts to
normal edits is also increased over more obscure pages.

As before, the revert time distribution has a very long tail, though
as predicted the times are generally reduced when traffic weighting is
applied. In the traffic weighted sample, the median time to revert is
3.4 minutes and the mean time is 2.2 hours (compared to 6.7 minutes
and 18.2 hours with uniform weighting). Again, I think it is worth
acknowledging that having a majority of reverts occur within only a
few minutes is a strong testament to the efficiency and dedication
with which new edits are usually reviewed by the community. We could
be much worse off if most things weren't caught so quickly.

Unfortunately, in comparing the current analysis to the previous one,
the faster response time is essentially being overwhelmed by the much
larger number of vandalism occurrences. The net result is that
averaged over the whole history of Wikipedia a visitor would be
expected to receive a recently degraded article version during about
1.1% of requests (compared to ~0.37% in the uniform weighting
estimate). The last six months averaged a slightly higher 1.3% (1 in
80 requests). As before, most of the degraded content that people are
likely to actually encounter is coming from the subset of things that
get by the initial monitors and survive for a long time. Among edits
that are eventually reverted the longest lasting 5% of bad content
(those edits taking > 7.2 hours to revert) is responsible for 78% of
the expected encounters with recently degraded material. One might
speculate that such long-lived material is more likely to reflect
subtle damage to a page rather than more obvious problems like page
blanking. I did not try to investigate this.

In my sample, the number of reverts being made to articles has
declined ~40% since a peak in late 2006. However, the mean and median
time to revert is little changed over the last two years. What little
trend exists points in the direction of slightly slower responses.


So to summarize, the results here are qualitatively similar to those
found in the previous work. However with traffic weighting we find
quantitative differences such that reverts occur much more often but
take less time to be executed. The net effect of these competing
factors is such that the bad content is more likely to be seen than
suggested by the uniform weighting.

-Robert Rohde

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
very interesting research - many thanks for sharing that.

----- "Robert Rohde" <rarohde@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Robert Rohde" <rarohde@gmail.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, 27 August, 2009 17:41:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data
>
> Recently, I reported on a simple study of how likely one was to
> encounter recent vandalism in Wikipedia based on selecting articles at
> random and using revert behavior as a proxy for recent vandalism.
>
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2009-August/054171.html
>
> One of the key limitations of that work was that it was looking at
> articles selected at random from the pool of all existing page titles.
> That approach was of the most immediate interest to me, but it didn't
> directly address the likelihood of encountering vandalism based on the
> way that Wikipedia is actually used because the selection of articles
> that people choose to visit is highly non-random.
>
> I've now redone that analysis with a crude traffic based weighting.
> For traffic information I used the same data stream used by
> http://stats.grok.se. That data is recorded hourly. For simplicity I
> chose 20 hours at random from the last eight months and averaged those
> together to get a rough picture of the relative prominence of pages.
> I then chose a selection of 30000 articles at random with their
> probability of selection proportional to the traffic they received,
> and repeated the prior analysis previously described. (Note that this
> has the effect of treating the prominence of each page as a constant
> over time. In practice we know some pages rise to prominence while
> other fall down, but I am assuming the average pattern is still a good
> enough approximation to be useful.)
>
> From this sample I found 5,955,236 revert events in 38,096,653 edits.
> This is an increase of 29 times in edit frequency and 58 times the
> number of revert events that were found from a uniform sampling of
> pages. I suspect it surprises no one that highly trafficked pages are
> edited more often and subject to more vandalism than the average page,
> though it might not have been obvious that the the ratio of reverts to
> normal edits is also increased over more obscure pages.
>
> As before, the revert time distribution has a very long tail, though
> as predicted the times are generally reduced when traffic weighting is
> applied. In the traffic weighted sample, the median time to revert is
> 3.4 minutes and the mean time is 2.2 hours (compared to 6.7 minutes
> and 18.2 hours with uniform weighting). Again, I think it is worth
> acknowledging that having a majority of reverts occur within only a
> few minutes is a strong testament to the efficiency and dedication
> with which new edits are usually reviewed by the community. We could
> be much worse off if most things weren't caught so quickly.
>
> Unfortunately, in comparing the current analysis to the previous one,
> the faster response time is essentially being overwhelmed by the much
> larger number of vandalism occurrences. The net result is that
> averaged over the whole history of Wikipedia a visitor would be
> expected to receive a recently degraded article version during about
> 1.1% of requests (compared to ~0.37% in the uniform weighting
> estimate). The last six months averaged a slightly higher 1.3% (1 in
> 80 requests). As before, most of the degraded content that people are
> likely to actually encounter is coming from the subset of things that
> get by the initial monitors and survive for a long time. Among edits
> that are eventually reverted the longest lasting 5% of bad content
> (those edits taking > 7.2 hours to revert) is responsible for 78% of
> the expected encounters with recently degraded material. One might
> speculate that such long-lived material is more likely to reflect
> subtle damage to a page rather than more obvious problems like page
> blanking. I did not try to investigate this.
>
> In my sample, the number of reverts being made to articles has
> declined ~40% since a peak in late 2006. However, the mean and median
> time to revert is little changed over the last two years. What little
> trend exists points in the direction of slightly slower responses.
>
>
> So to summarize, the results here are qualitatively similar to those
> found in the previous work. However with traffic weighting we find
> quantitative differences such that reverts occur much more often but
> take less time to be executed. The net effect of these competing
> factors is such that the bad content is more likely to be seen than
> suggested by the uniform weighting.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
I've just read two different news stories on Flagged Revisions that
described vandalism as a "growing problem" for Wikipedia.

With that in mind, I would like to highlight one specific point in the
analysis I just did.

The frequency of reverts to articles -- as a fraction of total edits
-- has remained virtually constant for almost three years now. There
is no evidence that the community is making reverts more often today
(relative to total edits) than we were in 2007.

Hence, I would suggest that describing vandalism as a "growing"
problem is probably erroneous with respect to actual editing
behaviors. Maybe our concern for ensuring accuracy and addressing
vandalism has grown, but the scale of the underlying problem of
incoming vandalism appears to be more or less constant.

-Robert Rohde

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
1:00 edit1:02 revert
1:06 revert
1:14 revert
1:30 revert
2:02 revert

How many instances of "vandalism" does your program count there, and what is
the mean and median time to revert?
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Robert Rohde <rarohde@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've just read two different news stories on Flagged Revisions that
> described vandalism as a "growing problem" for Wikipedia.
>
> With that in mind, I would like to highlight one specific point in the
> analysis I just did.
>
> The frequency of reverts to articles -- as a fraction of total edits
> -- has remained virtually constant for almost three years now. There
> is no evidence that the community is making reverts more often today
> (relative to total edits) than we were in 2007.
>
> Hence, I would suggest that describing vandalism as a "growing"
> problem is probably erroneous with respect to actual editing
> behaviors. Maybe our concern for ensuring accuracy and addressing
> vandalism has grown, but the scale of the underlying problem of
> incoming vandalism appears to be more or less constant.


Why do you assume that number of reverts has any correlation with amount of
vandalism? Has this been studied?
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/27 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> Why do you assume that number of reverts has any correlation with amount of
> vandalism?  Has this been studied?

It seems to be a sensible assumption, although checking it would be
wise. I would put money on a significant majority of reverts being
reverts of vandalism rather than BRD reverts, it may not be an
overwhelming majority, though.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/8/27 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > Why do you assume that number of reverts has any correlation with amount
> of
> > vandalism? Has this been studied?
>
> It seems to be a sensible assumption, although checking it would be
> wise.


It seems to me to be begging the question. You don't answer the question
"how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally reverted.

I would put money on a significant majority of reverts being
> reverts of vandalism rather than BRD reverts, it may not be an
> overwhelming majority, though.


I don't know about that, though I won't take the other end of the bet. Have
you done much editing while not logged in? If so, I think you have to admit
that it's quite common to find yourself reverted for things which are not
properly classified as vandalism.

However, that's only one half of the equation. The other half is how many
instances of vandalism are not reverted, and how many are not "reverted" in
a way that is detected by this program.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I would put money on a significant majority of reverts being
>> reverts of vandalism rather than BRD reverts, it may not be an
>> overwhelming majority, though.
>
>
> I don't know about that, though I won't take the other end of the bet.
> Have you done much editing while not logged in? If so, I think you have to
> admit that it's quite common to find yourself reverted for things which are
> not properly classified as vandalism.
>

Just going through recent changes looking for "rv" (which is not the only
thing detected by Robert's software, and is probably the most likely to be
actual vandalism)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Smallpox&curid=16829895&diff=310413006&oldid=310405829
(content
dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=View_Askewniverse&curid=2163851&diff=310412615&oldid=310412247
(blanking
vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barbecue&curid=37135&diff=310412401&oldid=310410035
(spelling
dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sino-American_relations&curid=277880&diff=310412381&oldid=310329859
(revert
of POV edits, I guess that counts as "vandalism" by Robert's definition)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Secession&curid=144732&diff=310412005&oldid=310406662
(I
have no idea, I guess this one qualifies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Underdog_Project&curid=1436277&diff=310412002&oldid=308833810
(test
edit, qualifies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Visual_communication&curid=669120&diff=310411952&oldid=310411398
(I'm
going to call this a content dispute though you may disagree)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Technical_communication&curid=1219401&diff=310411937&oldid=310410621
(ditto)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caroline_Aherne&curid=514223&diff=310411860&oldid=310328710
(removal
of POV, qualifies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&curid=12205924&diff=310411680&oldid=310401913
(vandalism,
I think)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hephaestus&curid=14388&diff=310411384&oldid=310396007
(vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pop_punk_bands&curid=4770362&diff=310410857&oldid=310410740
(looks
like a content dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Korn's_ninth_studio_album&curid=21855821&diff=310410677&oldid=310381982
(content
dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kinetic_energy&curid=17327&diff=310410573&oldid=310391734
(vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games&curid=21469202&diff=310410431&oldid=310395902
(seems
to be reversion of a legitimate edit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teleological_argument&curid=30731&diff=310410174&oldid=310399980
(content
dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nick_Swardson&curid=3630190&diff=310410089&oldid=310410013
(vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jose_Canseco&curid=175552&diff=310409931&oldid=310408069
(vandalism,
I guess)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ola_Moum&curid=8083232&diff=310409846&oldid=310396138
(content
dispute)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kareli,_Georgia&curid=18661674&diff=310409393&oldid=310348062
(vandalism,
I think)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victoria_Justice&curid=2662543&diff=310412751&oldid=310411603
(I
guess it's technically a BLP violation, so qualifies)

13/21=62% actual vandalism, though I'm sure 80 people will now proceed to
dispute my categorizations.

Robert, let's get a random sample of the actual reverts your program
found...
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I would put money on a significant majority of reverts being
>>> reverts of vandalism rather than BRD reverts, it may not be an
>>> overwhelming majority, though.
>>
>>
>> I don't know about that, though I won't take the other end of the bet.
>>  Have you done much editing while not logged in?  If so, I think you have to
>> admit that it's quite common to find yourself reverted for things which are
>> not properly classified as vandalism.
>>
>
> Just going through recent changes looking for "rv" (which is not the only
> thing detected by Robert's software, and is probably the most likely to be
> actual vandalism)...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Smallpox&curid=16829895&diff=310413006&oldid=310405829
> (content
> dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=View_Askewniverse&curid=2163851&diff=310412615&oldid=310412247
> (blanking
> vandalism)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barbecue&curid=37135&diff=310412401&oldid=310410035
> (spelling
> dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sino-American_relations&curid=277880&diff=310412381&oldid=310329859
> (revert
> of POV edits, I guess that counts as "vandalism" by Robert's definition)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Secession&curid=144732&diff=310412005&oldid=310406662
> (I
> have no idea, I guess this one qualifies)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Underdog_Project&curid=1436277&diff=310412002&oldid=308833810
> (test
> edit, qualifies)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Visual_communication&curid=669120&diff=310411952&oldid=310411398
> (I'm
> going to call this a content dispute though you may disagree)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Technical_communication&curid=1219401&diff=310411937&oldid=310410621
>  (ditto)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caroline_Aherne&curid=514223&diff=310411860&oldid=310328710
> (removal
> of POV, qualifies)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&curid=12205924&diff=310411680&oldid=310401913
> (vandalism,
> I think)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hephaestus&curid=14388&diff=310411384&oldid=310396007
>  (vandalism)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pop_punk_bands&curid=4770362&diff=310410857&oldid=310410740
> (looks
> like a content dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Korn's_ninth_studio_album&curid=21855821&diff=310410677&oldid=310381982
> (content
> dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kinetic_energy&curid=17327&diff=310410573&oldid=310391734
>  (vandalism)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games&curid=21469202&diff=310410431&oldid=310395902
> (seems
> to be reversion of a legitimate edit)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teleological_argument&curid=30731&diff=310410174&oldid=310399980
> (content
> dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nick_Swardson&curid=3630190&diff=310410089&oldid=310410013
>  (vandalism)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jose_Canseco&curid=175552&diff=310409931&oldid=310408069
> (vandalism,
> I guess)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ola_Moum&curid=8083232&diff=310409846&oldid=310396138
> (content
> dispute)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kareli,_Georgia&curid=18661674&diff=310409393&oldid=310348062
> (vandalism,
> I think)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victoria_Justice&curid=2662543&diff=310412751&oldid=310411603
> (I
> guess it's technically a BLP violation, so qualifies)
>
> 13/21=62% actual vandalism, though I'm sure 80 people will now proceed to
> dispute my categorizations.
>
> Robert, let's get a random sample of the actual reverts your program
> found...
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

/rvv?|revert(ing)?[ ]*(vandal(ism)?)?/

Might give you a slightly wider sample.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> /rvv?|revert(ing)?[ ]*(vandal(ism)?)?/
>
> Might give you a slightly wider sample.


I'll wait for Robert to release a random sample of edits he actually
identified as "reverts" and/or the actual scripts and data dump he used.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
> It seems to me to be begging the question. You don't answer the question
> "how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally reverted.

Can you suggest a better metric then?

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me to be begging the question. You don't answer the question
> > "how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally reverted.
>
> Can you suggest a better metric then?


I must admit I don't understand the question.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > It seems to me to be begging the question.  You don't answer the question
>> > "how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally reverted.
>>
>> Can you suggest a better metric then?
>
>
> I must admit I don't understand the question.

He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
severity of vandalism.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me to be begging the question. You don't answer the
> question
> >> > "how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally
> reverted.
> >>
> >> Can you suggest a better metric then?
> >
> >
> > I must admit I don't understand the question.
>
> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
> severity of vandalism.
>

Umm...you would count the number of instances of vandalism?

Is the question how to objectively *define* "vandalism"?

If not, I still don't understand the question.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>>> > It seems to me to be begging the question.  You don't answer the question
>>> > "how bad is vandalism" by assuming that vandalism is generally reverted.
>>> Can you suggest a better metric then?
>> I must admit I don't understand the question.
>
> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
> severity of vandalism.

The obvious methodology would be to take a large random sample and
hand classify it. It's not rocket science.

By having multiple people perform the classification you could measure
the confidence of the classification.

This is somewhat labor intensive, but only somewhat as it doesn't take
an inordinate number of samples to produce representative results.
This should be the gold standard for this kind of measurement as it
would be much closer to what people actually want to know than most
machine metrics.

If the results of this kind of study have good agreement with
mechanical proxy metrics (such as machine detected vandalism) our
confidence in those proxies will increase, if they disagree it will
provide an opportunity to improve the proxies.

These are techniques widely used in other fields.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
>> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
>> severity of vandalism.
>>
>
> Umm...you would count the number of instances of vandalism?

That's not practical. That would require a person to go through
article histories revision by revision, probably multiple people per
article to check they agreed on what was vandalism. It won't work for
the kind of sample sizes required unless you get an army of
volunteers. We need something that we expect to strongly correlate
with the number of instances of vandalism but is easier to measure -
that is what "revisions with revert/rvv/etc. in the edit summary" was
intended to be.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>:
> This is somewhat labor intensive, but only somewhat as it doesn't take
> an inordinate number of samples to produce representative results.
> This should be the gold standard for this kind of measurement as it
> would be much closer to what people actually want to know than most
> machine metrics.

To get a fair sample we would need to include some highly active
pages. They have ridiculous numbers of revisions (even if you restrict
it to the last few months).

> If the results of this kind of study have good agreement with
> mechanical proxy metrics (such as machine detected vandalism) our
> confidence in those proxies will increase, if they disagree it will
> provide an opportunity to improve the proxies.

This kind of intensive study on a few small sample with a more
automated method used on the same sample to compare would be more
achievable. If the automated method gets similar results, we can use
that method for larger samples.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> >> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
> >> severity of vandalism.
> >>
> >
> > Umm...you would count the number of instances of vandalism?
>
> That's not practical.


I never said it was practical, I just said that counting revisions and
calling that "counting vandalism" is incorrect.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
>> >> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about the
>> >> severity of vandalism.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Umm...you would count the number of instances of vandalism?
>>
>> That's not practical.
>
>
> I never said it was practical, I just said that counting revisions and
> calling that "counting vandalism" is incorrect.

And you were asked to suggest a better approach. Nobody claimed it was perfect.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> >> >> He means what would you measure in order to draw conclusions about
> the
> >> >> severity of vandalism.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Umm...you would count the number of instances of vandalism?
> >>
> >> That's not practical.
> >
> >
> > I never said it was practical, I just said that counting revisions and
> > calling that "counting vandalism" is incorrect.
>
> And you were asked to suggest a better approach. Nobody claimed it was
> perfect.
>

I suggested a better approach last time we had this thread: statistical
sampling.

And I'm saying much more than that this method is imperfect. I'm saying
it's fundamentally flawed when it comes to measuring vandalism. It measures
something much different than vandalism.

When it comes to answering the question of "how likely is one to encounter
vandalism", I am no more informed after reading this thread than before. It
could be 0.5% and I wouldn't be surprised. It could be 3% and I wouldn't be
surprised. The methods used in this study both undercount and overcount
vandalism, possibly quite significantly. Not all reverts are reverts of
vandalism. I wouldn't be surprised if only 50% of them are. And not all
vandalism is reverted. As "revert" is defined by this method, I wouldn't be
surprised if 75% of vandalism is not detected. This study doesn't measure
vandalism.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> I suggested a better approach last time we had this thread: statistical
> sampling.

This research was based on a sample. What are you talking about?

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
Just took a quick sample of 10 instances of vandalism to [[Ted Stevens]].
Of those 10 instances of vandalism, either 2 or 4 would not have been found
by the automated tool described. 2 if every edit summary containing the
word "vandalism" is counted as vandalism, and 4 if not. The former would
probably significantly overcount vandalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=173527553&oldid=173381871
(Removed
vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=180054904&oldid=179982198
(rmv
vandalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=168486242&oldid=168438600
no
edit summary
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=162332870&oldid=162038733
(yes
it is funny, but this doesn't belong here)

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:31 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > I suggested a better approach last time we had this thread: statistical
> > sampling.
>
> This research was based on a sample. What are you talking about?


I'm talking about taking a sample and examining it manually. First, spend a
few weeks coming up with an objective definition of vandalism. Then pick
5,000 random article views from the http log, and publish the URL/date/time.
Then advertise the list all over the place (especially on sites like
Wikipedia Review) asking people to find instances of vandalism in it.
People can use automated means which they then go through by hand to remove
false positives, manual error checking, spot checking, whatever. The number
of confirmed instances of vandalism will grow for a while, and eventually
will start to level off.

May not be perfect, but it'll provide a lower bound on the amount of
vandalism, at least. Have a statistician tell us what our exact error
bounds are. And then prepare for a second study, improving on everything
(the definition of "vandalism", the number of random article views, the
amount of time to wait) based on what we learned.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

> Just took a quick sample of 10 instances of vandalism to [[Ted Stevens]].
> Of those 10 instances of vandalism, either 2 or 4 would not have been
> found
> by the automated tool described. 2 if every edit summary containing the
> word "vandalism" is counted as vandalism, and 4 if not. The former would
> probably significantly overcount vandalism.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=173527553&oldid=173381871
> (Removed
> vandalism)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=180054904&oldid=179982198
> (rmv
> vandalism)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=168486242&oldid=168438600
> no
> edit summary
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Stevens&diff=162332870&oldid=162038733
> (yes
> it is funny, but this doesn't belong here)
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:31 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > 2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > > I suggested a better approach last time we had this thread: statistical
> > > sampling.
> >
> > This research was based on a sample. What are you talking about?
>
>
> I'm talking about taking a sample and examining it manually. First, spend
> a
> few weeks coming up with an objective definition of vandalism. Then pick
> 5,000 random article views from the http log, and publish the
> URL/date/time.
> Then advertise the list all over the place (especially on sites like
> Wikipedia Review) asking people to find instances of vandalism in it.
> People can use automated means which they then go through by hand to
> remove
> false positives, manual error checking, spot checking, whatever. The
> number
> of confirmed instances of vandalism will grow for a while, and eventually
> will start to level off.
>
> May not be perfect, but it'll provide a lower bound on the amount of
> vandalism, at least. Have a statistician tell us what our exact error
> bounds are. And then prepare for a second study, improving on everything
> (the definition of "vandalism", the number of random article views, the
> amount of time to wait) based on what we learned.
>


Out of curiosity, Anthony, do you still refrain from editing Wikimedia
projects over licensing
issues? How long has it been, a year?

Nathan
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Out of curiosity, Anthony, do you still refrain from editing Wikimedia
> projects over licensing
> issues? How long has it been, a year?


I guess now is as good a time as any to admit it. I started editing again,
without logging in, about a month ago. I made a couple dozen or so edits in
since. Prior to that my last edit was October 20, 2008.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Frequency of Seeing Bad Versions - now with traffic data [ In reply to ]
2009/8/28 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> If you're going to do it, maybe we should work on a rough-consensus
> objective definition of "vandalism" before you release the file, though...

Don't we have a consensus definition already? Vandalism is bad faith
editing. You may also want to include test edits since they are
treated in the same way (just with different warning messages). That
isn't objective, but it should be close enough. We can argue over a
few borderline cases.

I support the request for 5000 random pageviews (uniform distribution
by pageview over the last 6 months) from the logs.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

1 2  View All