Mailing List Archive

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:42 PM, John Vandenberg<jayvdb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, I am not affronted.
>
> I am thrilled that the election committee decided that computer
> engineers should be rewarded for their ingenuity by allowing their
> fine opinion to be counted twice.
>
> This motivates me to write more bots for next year.

All of my Christmas' have come at once.

I just received notification that "Jayvdb" is also asked to vote.

--
John Vandenbeg

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2009/8/8 Casey Brown <lists@caseybrown.org>:
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have just received an email telling me I am eligible to vote in the
>> board elections when I have already voted. Please don't send
>> untargetted mass emails - they are spam.
>
> "telling me I am eligible" and "untargetted mass e-mails" don't really
> make sense together, do they?  Also, although you're only getting one
> e-mail once per year (will be every two years), you're free to opt-out
> (there are instructions in the e-mail you received).

Ok, "insufficiently targetted" then. Not emailing people that have
already voted seems obvious to me and should be very easy to check.

> /me wonders why you wouldn't just hit reply to the e-mail and send
> this message to people who actually can do something about it, rather
> than foundation-l.

I'm used to mass emailings not having working reply-to's set. Also,
sending it here should reduce the number of duplicate emails they
receive since other people will know the point has already been made.

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Although I had already voted, I was not bothered by one tiny email reminding me that I was eligible to vote. Thanks guys, hopefully this will get people to the polls.




________________________________
From: Casey Brown <lists@caseybrown.org>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 9:57:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Board election spamming

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have just received an email telling me I am eligible to vote in the
> board elections when I have already voted. Please don't send
> untargetted mass emails - they are spam.

"telling me I am eligible" and "untargetted mass e-mails" don't really
make sense together, do they? Also, although you're only getting one
e-mail once per year (will be every two years), you're free to opt-out
(there are instructions in the e-mail you received).

/me wonders why you wouldn't just hit reply to the e-mail and send
this message to people who actually can do something about it, rather
than foundation-l.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Meno 25<meno25wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> and also please don't send e-mails to bot accounts.
>

Yes, that's a good point. It seems this was an error this time around
and they'll probably remember to leave those ones out next time.
(Hopefully we'll have people writing up a "how-to" page for future
years.)

--
Casey Brown (who is not an election committee member, hence the third person)
Cbrown1023

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2009/8/8 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>:
> Although I had already voted, I was not bothered by one tiny email reminding me that I was eligible to vote. Thanks guys, hopefully this will get people to the polls.

If it was difficult to avoid emailing people that have already voted,
I wouldn't mind, but I don't believe it is difficult (it's been done
in previous years), so why not do it?

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> The list of users who have voted is available at
> https://wikimedia.spi-inc.org/index.php/Special:SecurePoll/list/17

Some names/nicks there appeared crossed (by horizontal line).
Would somebody please explain what does it mean?


2009/8/8 Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby@gmail.com>:
> 2009/8/8 John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM, private musings<thepmaccount@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > No silly - it's a mistake! (don't be so grumpy..... - or be aware that
>> this
>> > could come across as grumpy at least)
>> >
>> > I recall the grumbles when Greg sent something out last year or the year
>> > before, and feel the same about this as that - the folk sending the email
>> > are using an imperfect system, but overall it's worth it - I'm hope that
>> > those feeling personally affronted by such an approach can take solace in
>> > something or other, and just generally relax a notch or two.... :-)
>>
>> Oh, I am not affronted.
>>
>> I am thrilled that the election committee decided that computer
>> engineers should be rewarded for their ingenuity by allowing their
>> fine opinion to be counted twice.
>>
>> This motivates me to write more bots for next year.
>>
>> p.s. can the election committee ensure that votes from bot accounts
>> are not counted??
>>
>> p.p.s. if I can have another free vote, I will gladly write a bot to
>> help the election committee to discount bot votes...
>>
>> --
>> John Vandenberg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> The list of users who have voted is available at
> https://wikimedia.spi-inc.org/index.php/Special:SecurePoll/list/17 , and I
> know the committee will be more than happy for any help received. ;-)
>
> --
> Jon Harald Søby
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Generally speaking, that means that the user appears to have voted
more than once, or from more than one username on more than one
project. The line denotes that vote has been struck.

Philippe


On Aug 8, 2009, at 3:03 PM, Pavlo Shevelo wrote:

>> The list of users who have voted is available at
>> https://wikimedia.spi-inc.org/index.php/Special:SecurePoll/list/17
>
> Some names/nicks there appeared crossed (by horizontal line).
> Would somebody please explain what does it mean?
>
>
> 2009/8/8 Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby@gmail.com>:
>> 2009/8/8 John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM, private musings<thepmaccount@gmail.com
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>> No silly - it's a mistake! (don't be so grumpy..... - or be aware
>>>> that
>>> this
>>>> could come across as grumpy at least)
>>>>
>>>> I recall the grumbles when Greg sent something out last year or
>>>> the year
>>>> before, and feel the same about this as that - the folk sending
>>>> the email
>>>> are using an imperfect system, but overall it's worth it - I'm
>>>> hope that
>>>> those feeling personally affronted by such an approach can take
>>>> solace in
>>>> something or other, and just generally relax a notch or two.... :-)
>>>
>>> Oh, I am not affronted.
>>>
>>> I am thrilled that the election committee decided that computer
>>> engineers should be rewarded for their ingenuity by allowing their
>>> fine opinion to be counted twice.
>>>
>>> This motivates me to write more bots for next year.
>>>
>>> p.s. can the election committee ensure that votes from bot accounts
>>> are not counted??
>>>
>>> p.p.s. if I can have another free vote, I will gladly write a bot to
>>> help the election committee to discount bot votes...
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Vandenberg
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>>
>> The list of users who have voted is available at
>> https://wikimedia.spi-inc.org/index.php/Special:SecurePoll/list/
>> 17 , and I
>> know the committee will be more than happy for any help received. ;-)
>>
>> --
>> Jon Harald Søby
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


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Pavlo Shevelo wrote:
>> The list of users who have voted is available at
>> https://wikimedia.spi-inc.org/index.php/Special:SecurePoll/list/17
>
> Some names/nicks there appeared crossed (by horizontal line).
> Would somebody please explain what does it mean?

Those that are grey out (or at least slightly lighter colour that one
can barely see the difference of) are votes that have been superseded by
a later vote from the same account. The last vote cast is the one that's
counted.

The crossed off votes are votes that have been manually struck off by
the election committee. For example when the same person have voted from
multiple accounts.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have just received an email telling me I am eligible to vote in the
> board elections when I have already voted. Please don't send
> untargetted mass emails - they are spam.

Ah, I may imagine how your reaction would be in my case :) I have a
number of bots, of which some don't have bot flags (because it is just
an account, because it is not a bot which should have a bot flag or
because it has bot flags just partially). So, until now, I've got one
email for myself (even thou I voted) and three for my bots :)

That means that automatic emails about voting should be fixed:
* We should have a possibility to connect accounts. My bot is my
account and I would like to manipulate with all of my data from one
interface, not by logging out from one account and logging in to
another.
* Voters who already voted shouldn't get that message.
* Voters should be able to opt-out from this kind of messages for the
next elections, referendums etc.

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Keep in mind that this election didn't go off as well as it could
have, we all know that, the important thing was getting the e-mails
out before the vote ended. It was already too late, so it's better to
get more people notified than less. It wasn't perfect, last year was
better because there was more time to tweak everything. :-)

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> That means that automatic emails about voting should be fixed:
> * We should have a possibility to connect accounts. My bot is my
> account and I would like to manipulate with all of my data from one
> interface, not by logging out from one account and logging in to
> another.

Bot accounts will probably be excluded in the future, since they are
explicitly not allowed to vote.

> * Voters who already voted shouldn't get that message.

Yes, there was an issue this year I think. Remembering back to last
year, this wasn't an issue, so it probably won't be for future years.

> * Voters should be able to opt-out from this kind of messages for the
> next elections, referendums etc.

This has existed and is linked in all the e-mails (and translations):
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_nomail_list>

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Casey Brown<lists@caseybrown.org> wrote:
> Bot accounts will probably be excluded in the future, since they are
> explicitly not allowed to vote.

I think that it shouldn't be so complicated to do one "sort -u" over
emails. As I said, some of my bots don't have bot flags and because of
that they can't be treated as bots automatically. However, I am using
just one email address for all of them. Probably, there is number of
similar cases with well intentioned sock-puppet owners.

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Milos Rancic wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Casey Brown<lists@caseybrown.org> wrote:
>> Bot accounts will probably be excluded in the future, since they are
>> explicitly not allowed to vote.
>
> I think that it shouldn't be so complicated to do one "sort -u" over
> emails. As I said, some of my bots don't have bot flags and because of
> that they can't be treated as bots automatically. However, I am using
> just one email address for all of them. Probably, there is number of
> similar cases with well intentioned sock-puppet owners.

Just out of interest, how many such email did you get last year because
I'm sure I only (try to) send one email to each email address (that
hadn't voted already).

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Kwan Ting Chan<ktc@ktchan.info> wrote:
> Just out of interest, how many such email did you get last year because I'm
> sure I only (try to) send one email to each email address (that hadn't voted
> already).

* One email to myself (millosh@gmail.com). I voted first day and a
couple of days ago once more [with the same account, of course :] ].
* One email to my main bot account Millbot to another/old email
address (millosh@users.sourceforge.net). This bot has global account
and bot flag on at least a couple of Wikinews editions (it maintains
[[Template:Statistics]] there).
* One email to my Wikinews bot Millbot-Beta, which email is
millosh@gmail.com, too. It doesn't have bot flag.

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Milos Rancic wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Kwan Ting Chan<ktc@ktchan.info> wrote:
>> Just out of interest, how many such email did you get last year because I'm
>> sure I only (try to) send one email to each email address (that hadn't voted
>> already).
>
> * One email to myself (millosh@gmail.com). I voted first day and a
> couple of days ago once more [with the same account, of course :] ].
> * One email to my main bot account Millbot to another/old email
> address (millosh@users.sourceforge.net). This bot has global account
> and bot flag on at least a couple of Wikinews editions (it maintains
> [[Template:Statistics]] there).
> * One email to my Wikinews bot Millbot-Beta, which email is
> millosh@gmail.com, too. It doesn't have bot flag.

*Point to "last year" from original message* ;-)

I wasn't responsible for this year email, but was last year.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>wrote:

> I already voted when I got my email, and I didn't think it was spam. I
> smiled at the fact that Wikimedia is making sure everyone who can vote has
> the opportunity.
>

Indeed. I had already voted, and got an email, but I'm not going to do any
complaining. It's one email, for Pete's sake.

That said, I have seen some good suggestions in this thread, that might be
helpful for next year:

- Consider excluding accounts that have already voted, or sending them a
different email.
- Consider excluding bot accounts
- If possible, try to get these out a bit sooner. I know it's hard.

Either way, thanks are due to those who handled this. So, thank you.

-Luna
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On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Luna<lunasantin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed. I had already voted, and got an email, but I'm not going to do any
> complaining. It's one email, for Pete's sake.

The irony is that those who dislike having received an email about the
election have now received about 30 more due to reporting this issue.

OK, *ideally* an email wouldn't be sent to those who have already
voted. But it's really not as if Wikimedia is a persistent spammer.
I'd let it slide.

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On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Bod Notbod <bodnotbod@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, *ideally* an email wouldn't be sent to those who have already
> voted. But it's really not as if Wikimedia is a persistent spammer.
> I'd let it slide.


Yeah, that's about where I sit on it. :) I wouldn't have said anything, if
it weren't already under discussion -- I didn't mind it one bit.

While I am tabulating suggestions, looks like one decent idea got lost in
another thread, forked from this one:

- Consider excluding blocked accounts from the email list.

-Luna
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Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> Although I had already voted, I was not bothered by one tiny email reminding me that I was eligible to vote. Thanks guys, hopefully this will get people to the polls.
>
>
>
>
It didn't bother me either even though it came after I voted. As far as
spam goes this was softball, and it's impossible to screen out to the
extent that some people want.

I only received the message once, but considerably more messages
complaining about it.

Ec

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2009/8/9 Ray Saintonge <saintonge@telus.net>:
> Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
>> Although I had already voted, I was not bothered by one tiny email reminding me that I was eligible to vote. Thanks guys, hopefully this will get people to the polls.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It didn't bother me either even though it came after I voted.  As far as
> spam goes this was softball, and it's impossible to screen out to the
> extent that some people want.
>
> I only received the message once, but considerably more messages
> complaining about it.

And even more messages like the one you just sent that add absolutely
nothing to the conversation and just say "me too".

It is not impossible to remove people who have already voted from the
list of people to be reminded, it has been done in previous years.

Why wasn't all this planned in advance? There should have been a
timetable with a specific date on which an email would be sent out and
there should have been a specific earlier date at which the mailing
list would be completed by. (People that voted inbetween those dates
may get a redundant email, a line should be added to the end
apologising for that.) These elections have been run several times
before, basic stuff like sending out emails shouldn't be cobbled
together at the last minute.

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Thomas,

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have just received an email telling me I am eligible to vote in the
> board elections when I have already voted. Please don't send
> untargetted mass emails - they are spam.

You think nothing of routinely filling up all of the list subscribers'
inboxes with your opinions, as the top poster on Foundation-l.* But
you are complaining here about one email, sent specifically to active
and thus presumably interested members of Wikimedia projects reminding
them about a single, important election? I find complaints about this
being "spam" -- as if you can't handle one extra email about
Wikimedia, when you clearly manage to get through hundreds of much
less important missives on the mailing lists on a regular basis --
pretty mindblowingly hypocritical.

On a general note, I for one greatly appreciate the Election
Committee's efforts to get wide community participation in the Board
elections**, even if the mailing could have gone more smoothly.

On an even more general note, the constructive part of this
conversation -- i.e. planning for the next election, and pointing out
things to do next time -- is great. Where's the best place for posting
"next-time" suggestions from this thread? Elections talk?***

-- phoebe

* http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2009-February/050149.html
** Despite the election's importance, turnout is so far pretty
pathetic, esp. from smaller wikis.
*** http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Board_elections

--
* I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers
<at> gmail.com *

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> Thomas,
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have just received an email telling me I am eligible to vote in the
>> board elections when I have already voted. Please don't send
>> untargetted mass emails - they are spam.

on 8/9/09 5:15 PM, phoebe ayers at phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:

>
> You think nothing of routinely filling up all of the list subscribers'
> inboxes with your opinions, as the top poster on Foundation-l.* But
> you are complaining here about one email, sent specifically to active
> and thus presumably interested members of Wikimedia projects reminding
> them about a single, important election? I find complaints about this
> being "spam" -- as if you can't handle one extra email about
> Wikimedia, when you clearly manage to get through hundreds of much
> less important missives on the mailing lists on a regular basis --
> pretty mindblowingly hypocritical.
>
Yes!! Thank you Phoebe. This comment was long overdue!

Marc


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On Aug 9, 2009, at 4:15 PM, phoebe ayers wrote:

> On a general note, I for one greatly appreciate the Election
> Committee's efforts to get wide community participation in the Board
> elections**, even if the mailing could have gone more smoothly.
>
> On an even more general note, the constructive part of this
> conversation -- i.e. planning for the next election, and pointing out
> things to do next time -- is great. Where's the best place for posting
> "next-time" suggestions from this thread? Elections talk?***

Thank you on behalf of the committee for your kind words.

I've created a post-mortem topic at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Board_elections/2009#Post_mortem

Philippe

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phoebe ayers <phoebe.wiki@...> writes:
>
> ** Despite the election's importance, turnout is so far pretty
> pathetic, esp. from smaller wikis.

Which begs the question: why was the central notice taken down when there is
still a day left?


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On Aug 10, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Tisza Gergő wrote:

> Which begs the question: why was the central notice taken down when
> there is
> still a day left?


It went down earlier than we expected. It's back up, after a brief
outage.

Philippe



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