Mailing List Archive

How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided?
The Wikimedia Foundation was originally envisaged as a membership
organization. Per my recollection, everyone who ever edited would become a
member. That didn't happen for legal reasons, however, I believe in the
spirit of it being a membership organization. Unfortunately we now subscribe
to the recentist perspective that only those that maintain a certain pace of
editing are eligible to vote. We ignore, not only new editors who do not yet
have 600 edits, but all editors who have 600 edits but have contributed to
the projects in other ways recently, or have lapsed into just using the
projects as a useful information resource.

I highly doubt that a statistical analysis was carried out which found that
editors that don't meet this requirement skew the results. I also highly
doubt that editors that don't meet this requirement are incapable of
comprehending the statements created by those seeking election, ranking them
and making a perfectly valid choice that increases the power of the result.

In my view, the only reason to limit voting to editors with a certain number
of edits is to limit the effects of ballot stuffing. However, technical
measures can easily counteract this effect. Additionally, the more people
you allow to vote the more effective your anti-ballot stuffing
countermeasures will be, as the larger number of votes mutes the effect of
those who vote for the same person from several ip addresses.

Thus, I must conclude that this rule was created arbitrarily. And if it was
voted on, I seriously consider the result of that vote suspect, given
present knowledge.

/Brian
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Recentist? Ignoring the, ahem, fanciful language you've chosen, I'd like to
throw my support behind the voting qualifications wholeheartedly.
For me, the analogy is simple: just because you get a driver's license once
doesn't entitle you to drive for the rest of your life. This isn't just
about what will "skew the results" with ballot stuffing. It's about giving
suffrage to people who can make an informed decision that will positively
affect the work of the community by getting adequate representation on the
Board.
Steven Walling

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:

> The Wikimedia Foundation was originally envisaged as a membership
> organization. Per my recollection, everyone who ever edited would become a
> member. That didn't happen for legal reasons, however, I believe in the
> spirit of it being a membership organization. Unfortunately we now
> subscribe
> to the recentist perspective that only those that maintain a certain pace
> of
> editing are eligible to vote. We ignore, not only new editors who do not
> yet
> have 600 edits, but all editors who have 600 edits but have contributed to
> the projects in other ways recently, or have lapsed into just using the
> projects as a useful information resource.
>
> I highly doubt that a statistical analysis was carried out which found that
> editors that don't meet this requirement skew the results. I also highly
> doubt that editors that don't meet this requirement are incapable of
> comprehending the statements created by those seeking election, ranking
> them
> and making a perfectly valid choice that increases the power of the result.
>
> In my view, the only reason to limit voting to editors with a certain
> number
> of edits is to limit the effects of ballot stuffing. However, technical
> measures can easily counteract this effect. Additionally, the more people
> you allow to vote the more effective your anti-ballot stuffing
> countermeasures will be, as the larger number of votes mutes the effect of
> those who vote for the same person from several ip addresses.
>
> Thus, I must conclude that this rule was created arbitrarily. And if it was
> voted on, I seriously consider the result of that vote suspect, given
> present knowledge.
>
> /Brian
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>wrote:

> Recentist? Ignoring the, ahem, fanciful language you've chosen, I'd like to
> throw my support behind the voting qualifications wholeheartedly.
> For me, the analogy is simple: just because you get a driver's license once
> doesn't entitle you to drive for the rest of your life. This isn't just
> about what will "skew the results" with ballot stuffing. It's about giving
> suffrage to people who can make an informed decision that will positively
> affect the work of the community by getting adequate representation on the
> Board.
> Steven Walling
>

You have only said that you support the current plan, without making an
argument as to why it is beneficial. There is no information in the current
heuristic that indicates that the editor is more or less familiar with the
candidates than an editor who does not. Given that it is an international
election it is quite likely the case that many of the people who are
qualified to vote are not familiar with the majority of the candidates and
they will have to read up on them. I argued in my original post that the
heuristic does not distinguish between the capability of people that it
captures and people it does not to make an informed and valid ranking
decision about the candidates. To reiterate, you simply said you agree with
the current plan without arguing that this is false.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Recentist? Ignoring the, ahem, fanciful language you've chosen, I'd like
>> to
>> throw my support behind the voting qualifications wholeheartedly.
>> For me, the analogy is simple: just because you get a driver's license
>> once
>> doesn't entitle you to drive for the rest of your life. This isn't just
>> about what will "skew the results" with ballot stuffing. It's about giving
>> suffrage to people who can make an informed decision that will positively
>> affect the work of the community by getting adequate representation on the
>> Board.
>> Steven Walling
>>
>
> You have only said that you support the current plan, without making an
> argument as to why it is beneficial. There is no information in the current
> heuristic that indicates that the editor is more or less familiar with the
> candidates than an editor who does not. Given that it is an international
> election it is quite likely the case that many of the people who are
> qualified to vote are not familiar with the majority of the candidates and
> they will have to read up on them. I argued in my original post that the
> heuristic does not distinguish between the capability of people that it
> captures and people it does not to make an informed and valid ranking
> decision about the candidates. To reiterate, you simply said you agree with
> the current plan without arguing that this is false.
>

The second sentence should read: There is no information in the current
heuristic that indicates that editors who are allowed to vote are more or
less familiar with the candidates than those who are not.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Brian<Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:
> The second sentence should read: There is no information in the current
> heuristic that indicates that editors who are allowed to vote are more or
> less familiar with the candidates than those who are not.

Who says there needs to be?

The recent edits criteria reduces the incentive to crack or otherwise
collect old unused but qualified accounts. For example, I could setup
a free watchlist aggregation service and users would give me their
passwords. Over time I could obtain many and then wait for accounts to
naturally become inactive, then I could vote with them.

It also makes it harder to otherwise obtain votes from accounts whos
owners have lost interest in the project and might be willing to part
with theirs easily. Recent editing activity also provides more
information for analysis in the event that some kind of vote fraud is
suspected.

A recent edits criteria is justifiable on this kind of process basis alone.

50 edits can easily be made in a couple of hours, even if you're not
making trivial changes. If you're not putting that level of effort it
seems somewhat doubtful that you're going to read the >0.5 MBytes of
text or so needed to completely and carefully review the provided
candidate material from scratch. Like all stereotypes it won't hold
true for everyone but if it's true on average then it will produce an
average improvement, we just need to be careful not to disenfranchise
too many.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
I have no opinion on whether the rule should exist, but it is something that
deserves to be looked at. There are valid reasons for requiring a minimum
recent edit count, of course, but perhaps there are better ways to handle
it.

The rules did disenfranchise me, for example. It doesn't bother me that I
can't vote, but that said, I would've liked to vote if eligible. I am not
active on Wikipedia, but I do follow the mailing lists, and have followed
the election process. If I really wanted to, I could've racked up 50 edits
to get a vote, but that almost seems "dirty", I guess, to make edits just to
regain eligibility for the election.

My thought is that there may be other ways to enfranchise users who are
clearly community members, but who for some reason or another are inactive
on the projects themselves. What those ways are, I don't know.

One thought: If the only, or at least the major reason that we're doing
this is to avoid fraud, users with "committed identities" - encrypted
messages on their user page as a way to verify their identity in case an
account is stolen - could be re-enfranchised on a case-by-case basis if they
can provide the passphrase.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Brian<Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:
> > The second sentence should read: There is no information in the current
> > heuristic that indicates that editors who are allowed to vote are more or
> > less familiar with the candidates than those who are not.
>
> Who says there needs to be?
>
> The recent edits criteria reduces the incentive to crack or otherwise
> collect old unused but qualified accounts. For example, I could setup
> a free watchlist aggregation service and users would give me their
> passwords. Over time I could obtain many and then wait for accounts to
> naturally become inactive, then I could vote with them.
>
> It also makes it harder to otherwise obtain votes from accounts whos
> owners have lost interest in the project and might be willing to part
> with theirs easily. Recent editing activity also provides more
> information for analysis in the event that some kind of vote fraud is
> suspected.
>
> A recent edits criteria is justifiable on this kind of process basis alone.
>
> 50 edits can easily be made in a couple of hours, even if you're not
> making trivial changes. If you're not putting that level of effort it
> seems somewhat doubtful that you're going to read the >0.5 MBytes of
> text or so needed to completely and carefully review the provided
> candidate material from scratch. Like all stereotypes it won't hold
> true for everyone but if it's true on average then it will produce an
> average improvement, we just need to be careful not to disenfranchise
> too many.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
[[User:Ral315]]
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Ryan Lomonaco<wiki.ral315@gmail.com> wrote:
> The rules did disenfranchise me, for example.  It doesn't bother me that I
> can't vote, but that said, I would've liked to vote if eligible.  I am not
> active on Wikipedia, but I do follow the mailing lists, and have followed
> the election process.  If I really wanted to, I could've racked up 50 edits
> to get a vote, but that almost seems "dirty", I guess, to make edits just to
> regain eligibility for the election.

I think that mailing lists posts should be treated as edits.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Hello,

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that mailing lists posts should be treated as edits.

Thank you; this sentence made my day.

--
Guillaume Paumier
[[m:User:guillom]]

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
When we have consensus on that one, someone has to count them.. So what
piority do we give it and, what do we bumb down the list ? Alternatively who
is volunteering to write the necessary software anyway and how are we going
to get it operational ??

PS I like the idea <grin>
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/7/31 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Ryan Lomonaco<wiki.ral315@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The rules did disenfranchise me, for example. It doesn't bother me that
> I
> > can't vote, but that said, I would've liked to vote if eligible. I am
> not
> > active on Wikipedia, but I do follow the mailing lists, and have followed
> > the election process. If I really wanted to, I could've racked up 50
> edits
> > to get a vote, but that almost seems "dirty", I guess, to make edits just
> to
> > regain eligibility for the election.
>
> I think that mailing lists posts should be treated as edits.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Guillaume Paumier<guillom.pom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that mailing lists posts should be treated as edits.
>
> Thank you; this sentence made my day.

Thank you, too. We share our happiness with each others' sentences.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When we have consensus on that one, someone has to count them.. So what
> piority do we give it and, what do we bumb down the list ? Alternatively who
> is volunteering to write the necessary software anyway and how are we going
> to get it operational ??

I have been developing a python library that does the mailing list
analysis, grouping together posts from the same user that were sent
with different email addresses, etc. and doing stats.

Those stats can be published monthly onto meta.

I think the easiest method of converting this into suffrage is to have
a special list where people can be added when they have been granted
suffrage for extra-ordinary reasons. At election time we inform
people who dont qualify via normal means to check the various
extra-ordinary suffrage criteria, such as their mail stats, and notify
the election committee if they qualify. The election committee would
then add the person to the special list.

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
When it is agreed that people can vote based on their mail contributions,
the one thing necessary is connecting people to their WMF user. When this
information is available on a user, the global user may be made known as a
voter. In my opinion you do not want to involve people when there is no
need. Automate what can be automated and through a link to a user it can be
automated.

While I agree that this makes sense, I doubt very much that many people will
have a vote as a result of this and even more, I doubt people will cast
their vote because they can in this way.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/7/31 John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Gerard
> Meijssen<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > When we have consensus on that one, someone has to count them.. So what
> > piority do we give it and, what do we bumb down the list ? Alternatively
> who
> > is volunteering to write the necessary software anyway and how are we
> going
> > to get it operational ??
>
> I have been developing a python library that does the mailing list
> analysis, grouping together posts from the same user that were sent
> with different email addresses, etc. and doing stats.
>
> Those stats can be published monthly onto meta.
>
> I think the easiest method of converting this into suffrage is to have
> a special list where people can be added when they have been granted
> suffrage for extra-ordinary reasons. At election time we inform
> people who dont qualify via normal means to check the various
> extra-ordinary suffrage criteria, such as their mail stats, and notify
> the election committee if they qualify. The election committee would
> then add the person to the special list.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When it is agreed that people can vote based on their mail contributions,
> the one thing necessary is connecting people to their WMF user. When this
> information is available on a user, the global user may be made known as a
> voter. In my opinion you do not want to involve people when there is no
> need. Automate what can be automated and through a link to a user it can be
> automated.
>
> While I agree that this makes sense, I doubt very much that many people will
> have a vote as a result of this and even more, I doubt people will cast
> their vote because they can in this way.

It is for this reason that it would be extra-ordinary. Most people
who send email to foundation-l would meet the normal suffrage
requirements.

All I am saying is that _if_ we do agree that emails should be counted
as edits, *I* can count them or publish stats that allow others to
more easily count them.

We have the technology.

Do we have the need?

Each year there are people who should have suffrage that do not.

If I remember correctly, last year the techies were allowed to vote
even if they didnt meet the edit criteria. We should learn from the
previous elections, and have a panel that reviews extra-ordinary
cases.

It is worth the effort.

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
2009/7/31 Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>:
> For me, the analogy is simple: just because you get a driver's license once
> doesn't entitle you to drive for the rest of your life.

Unless you actively do something wrong and get disqualified, yes it
does. The analogy works for not letting banned editors vote, it
doesn't work for not letting lapsed editors vote. (And there is the
obvious flaw from the fact that we don't require people to take a test
to edit.)

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Right on. I detect ageism supplementing the recentism.

But seriously folks, if fraud were the issue then confirmed identify would
overcome the problem. The number-of-recent-edits criterion has two effects
that bother me.

1. It effectively puts the vote firmly in the hands of producers not
consumers.
2. It effectively discriminates against those with RSI or who are otherwise
impaired

The first phenomenon is basic. We know damned lilttle about our users and
often seem to care less. Perhaps having a little more representation would
tilt toward responsiveness to the user base. As important as editors are, I
can see at the project level how their interests just don't seem very
responsive to users I have been appalled at some of the displays of
attitude toward users ("imbeciles" etc.) The default set up of our wikis
limits the ability of many with content knowledge or enthusiasm to
contribute in any satisfying way. To entrench those who have encouraged
keeping projects as sandboxes they share with the like-minded seems very
pernicious to Wikimedia as a movement. I think the Bolsheviks need to have
less influence.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/7/31 Steven Walling <steven.walling@gmail.com>:
> > For me, the analogy is simple: just because you get a driver's license
> once
> > doesn't entitle you to drive for the rest of your life.
>
> Unless you actively do something wrong and get disqualified, yes it
> does. The analogy works for not letting banned editors vote, it
> doesn't work for not letting lapsed editors vote. (And there is the
> obvious flaw from the fact that we don't require people to take a test
> to edit.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Dennis C. During

Cynolatry is tolerant so long as the dog is not denied an equal divinity
with the deities of other faiths. - Ambrose Bierce

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cynolatry
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Ryan Lomonaco<wiki.ral315@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The rules did disenfranchise me, for example.  It doesn't bother me that I
>> can't vote, but that said, I would've liked to vote if eligible.  I am not
>> active on Wikipedia, but I do follow the mailing lists, and have followed
>> the election process.  If I really wanted to, I could've racked up 50 edits
>> to get a vote, but that almost seems "dirty", I guess, to make edits just to
>> regain eligibility for the election.
>
> I think that mailing lists posts should be treated as edits.

It wouldn't contradict the argument I made.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:52 AM, Ryan Lomonaco<wiki.ral315@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> My thought is that there may be other ways to enfranchise users who are
> clearly community members, but who for some reason or another are inactive
> on the projects themselves.  What those ways are, I don't know.

One way could be to have chapters maintain lists of users linked to
real identities. Although that might gum up the works for "pink"
chapters that do not intend to become legal organizations.

-Sage

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Brian wrote:
>
> Speaking of consensus, where can I find the consensus for severely
> restricting the number of people who can vote by an arbitrary rule, and
> where is the consensus for the particular rule? You make it clear that The
> Powers That Be sit around a coffee table and pick whatever they think is
> best. In the absence of such a consensus the default would be a more
> permissive voting system.

Actually, the general case with Wikimedia, at least from my experience,
is that consensus are required to make a major change, not to maintain
the status quo. Having an edit requirement of some form *is* the status
quo, as I pointed out in my earlier email.

Anyway, that's not how things work with the board election for WMF
anyway. At the end of the day, despite what we might want, WMF is not a
membership organization. And who get to be on the board is determined by
its bylaws. The bylaws, which may be updated any time by the board
states "The Board of Trustees shall determine the dates, rules and
regulation of the voting procedures, which, beginning in 2009, shall
take place in odd-numbered years. The Board shall determine who is
qualified to vote for community-selected Trustees.".

In practice, the board delegating this responsibility to a number of
community members who forms the election community, while of course
maintaining final approval / veto power over the committee's decisions.

And from experience, I can tell you the reality of establishing the
rules work by starting from last year, and updating or modifying based
on feedbacks. And that mean, given no strong community consensus to
change our present form of requiring some form of edit requirement,
having that requirement.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Allow me, please, to reinforce this, wearing my "election committee
member" hat.

This years' rules were mostly carryovers from last years' rules. When
we started, we looked around, realized that no significant opposition
to last years' rules had been expressed, checked the talk pages to be
sure, and modified the rules to cover anything we thought needed to be
changed (for instance, this year we were able to use edits from across
wikis, using SUL - which was one of the points of opposition that was
raised last year, but there was not a technically feasible method to
do it at the time).

I'm sure that if there is significant response to the edit count
requirement, next year's committee will happily (he said confidently,
with no intent to volunteer for next year's committee) review it then.

Philippe





On Jul 31, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Kwan Ting Chan wrote:

>
> And from experience, I can tell you the reality of establishing the
> rules work by starting from last year, and updating or modifying
> based on feedbacks. And that mean, given no strong community
> consensus to change our present form of requiring some form of edit
> requirement, having that requirement.


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Philippe Beaudette wrote:
>
> I'm sure that if there is significant response to the edit count
> requirement, next year's committee will happily (he said confidently,
> with no intent to volunteer for next year's committee) review it then.

LOL, how many have you been on now? :P There's no (planned) election
next year, I don't think *anyone* is planning on volunteering for a
committee that won't exist. ;-)

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Philippe Beaudette <
pbeaudette@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Allow me, please, to reinforce this, wearing my "election committee
> member" hat.
>
> This years' rules were mostly carryovers from last years' rules. When
> we started, we looked around, realized that no significant opposition
> to last years' rules had been expressed, checked the talk pages to be
> sure, and modified the rules to cover anything we thought needed to be
> changed (for instance, this year we were able to use edits from across
> wikis, using SUL - which was one of the points of opposition that was
> raised last year, but there was not a technically feasible method to
> do it at the time).
>
> I'm sure that if there is significant response to the edit count
> requirement, next year's committee will happily (he said confidently,
> with no intent to volunteer for next year's committee) review it then.
>
> Philippe
>

It should be the goal of all those who hold power to convince the populace
that they must arrive at a consensus in order to change the status quo. That
way those with power can more easily enact laws that appear uncontroversial
and have them enter the status quo. Their power is then enhanced by the
inherent difficulty in achieving a consensus, especially when the tools
available for reaching consensus on general issues are brittle and difficult
to use. It is further enhanced by quoting the status quo standard often,
discouraging any attempts to enact change by pointing out that it would be
extremely difficult to get everyone to agree since you are a mere
individual.

An alternate system would, by default, put power back in the hands of the
community frequently, taking advantage of the fact that technology makes it
trivial to sample their voices as often as seems fair. I suppose you will
tell me that I can do this - I just have to vote for a candidate for the
board that agrees with my views. This is a great idea, except that I am not
eligible to vote.

The WMF is a far cry from the original vision of it as a membership
organization. Also, the board propagates stale laws under the notion of
status quo for which the original "consensus" is no longer remembered. There
is further no top down effort to ask the community if they have any good
ideas, and then ask the community what they think about the best of those
ideas. That, in my view, is a broken system.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
Brian wrote:
>
> The WMF is a far cry from the original vision of it as a membership
> organization. Also, the board propagates stale laws under the notion of
> status quo for which the original "consensus" is no longer remembered. There
> is further no top down effort to ask the community if they have any good
> ideas, and then ask the community what they think about the best of those
> ideas. That, in my view, is a broken system.

I'm going to take particular issue with the last point here.

On 3 June *2008*, right after last year election, Jesse
Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild), one of last year election committee
member, posted on the talk page of either Election 2009 or election 2008
(and subsequently merged with this year) "If you have an idea on how to
improve the 2008 board elections system for 2009, please post them below
under a section name that briefly summarizes the subject".

Philippe posted this year rules on this mailing list on 27 May. It has
always been the case that election committee will take any feedback or
concern expressed and change the rules based on those concern if needed.
Example of that happened last year when the recent edit over last 3
months requirement was added and subsequently modified based on feedback
to last 6 months. This year, the period of candidate presentation was
extended significantly, right up to the start of the election, again
based on feedback here on this mailing list.

You can't complain that the election committee don't take on board new
ideas or feedbacks if you haven't expressed it before the election started.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Kwan Ting Chan <ktc@ktchan.info> wrote:

> Brian wrote:
>
> I'm going to take particular issue with the last point here.
>
> On 3 June *2008*, right after last year election, Jesse Plamondon-Willard
> (Pathoschild), one of last year election committee member, posted on the
> talk page of either Election 2009 or election 2008 (and subsequently merged
> with this year) "If you have an idea on how to improve the 2008 board
> elections system for 2009, please post them below under a section name that
> briefly summarizes the subject".
>

I believe I covered this in my post where I mentioned brittle and difficult
to use tools that do not actually facilitate consensus building. Also, a
single person providing a comment and the board acting is not, in any way, a
consensus. If the litmus test for changing a rule is consensus, then why are
rules being changed after only one member of the community thinks its a good
idea? The answer is that this is not how the system works. Rules only change
when those with power think its a good idea.


>
> Philippe posted this year rules on this mailing list on 27 May.


I am arguing that the rules have always been broken and that the original
consensus is no longer remembered. Thus, their merit, in its entirety,
should be fully reconsidered. I do not know what conversations the board has
amongst itself when considering how much they should restrict the voice of
the community. I can say that it is not visionary in the technological sense
and that it goes against the original vision for the WMF, as I remember it.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Jul 31, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Brian wrote:

> There
> is further no top down effort to ask the community if they have any
> good
> ideas, and then ask the community what they think about the best of
> those
> ideas. That, in my view, is a broken system.


Really? Been to the strategic planning wiki lately? There's a whole
big section there asking for proposals from the community. :-)

Philippe

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: How was the "only people who averaged two edits a week in the last six months can vote" rule decided? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Philippe Beaudette <
pbeaudette@wikimedia.org> wrote:

>
> On Jul 31, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Brian wrote:
>
> > There
> > is further no top down effort to ask the community if they have any
> > good
> > ideas, and then ask the community what they think about the best of
> > those
> > ideas. That, in my view, is a broken system.
>
>
> Really? Been to the strategic planning wiki lately? There's a whole
> big section there asking for proposals from the community. :-)
>
> Philippe
>
>
I am definitely in favor of this new effort, particularly with the
CentralNotices.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

1 2  View All