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The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html

The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
science."

This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
other than English.

I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language
issues we face.


- d.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
Would you please be more clear in
> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
> other than English.
?
I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what
is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality
of projects in local (national) languages?


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:38 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
>
> The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
> conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
> professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
> science."


>
> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
> other than English.
>
> I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language
> issues we face.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
2009/7/10 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com>:
> Would you please be more clear in
>> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
>> other than English.
> ?
> I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what
> is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality
> of projects in local (national) languages?


I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.


- d.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 12:38 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
>
> The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
> conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
> professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
> science."
>
> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
> other than English.
>
> I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language
> issues we face.

Let's try with linguistics...

In slavistics is usual to write a paper in a native language +
abstract in Russian, English or a native language of publication.
Usually, all slavists know to read other Slavic languages.

But, if I am interested in description of phonemic system of Serbian
language, I am much more interested in cooperation with Japanese
linguists. If I am interested in distinction between alveo-palatal
consonants, i have more interests to cooperate with Hungarian and
Chinese linguists. If I am interested in well described synthetic
language to compare it with Serbian, I should work with classical
philologists specialized in Latin. And if I am willing to make any
kind of generalization of language characteristics, I am interested to
work with any linguist specialized in any language.

So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
2009/7/10 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:

> So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.


I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
time as well as field.


- d.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/7/10 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
>> So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
>
> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
> time as well as field.

English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
time for changing lingua franca.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
> English is the last lingua franca

So it's better to say Lingua Anglica
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,869957,00.html
;)

> ... In 20-30 years we'll have good
> enough translators
Do you mean computer tools like Google Translate or human interpreters?


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2009/7/10 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
>>> So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
>>
>> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
>> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
>> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
>> time as well as field.
>
> English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
> enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
> time for changing lingua franca.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Pavlo Shevelo<pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> English is the last lingua franca
>
> So it's better to say Lingua Anglica
> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,869957,00.html
> ;)
>
>> ... In 20-30 years we'll have good
>> enough translators
> Do you mean computer tools like Google Translate or human interpreters?

Computer tools. (I saw that I wasn't clear :) ) But I don't exclude
computer add-ons for humans :)

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
> ...he had to learn French and German well enough to read

I'd like to stress that he needed French *and* German meaning that in
any field of activity dominating lingua franca (or lingua anglica ) is
not the only foreign language that one will need to know in order to
really profess that field.

Even in computer sciences & engineering where lingua anglica is
undisputable dominator in some (not so rare) cases one should beg
Google Translate to assist in grasping some article or forum posting
made in Spanish, German, French… (to name a few)


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/7/10 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
>
>> So, even a discipline with a lot of polyglots can't work without lingua franca.
>
>
> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
> time as well as field.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
>> I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what
>> is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality
>> of projects in local (national) languages?
>
>
> I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.

As to me the long-term effects should be positive as more articles
regarding science and technology in local language will be created.

Taking into account that improving of the scientific & technology
terminology in this or that local language will need some time there
could be some short-term effects like creation of articles in interim
terminology to be reedited later


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:19 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/7/10 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com>:
>> Would you please be more clear in
>>> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
>>> other than English.
>> ?
>> I mean what kind of affects (positive/negative) do you mean and what
>> is the cause "mechanism" between such governmental rulings and quality
>> of projects in local (national) languages?
>
>
> I'm not sure, that's why I just posted the link.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 13:38, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
>
> The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
> conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
> professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
> science."

It depends on the balance of the public's desires and the powers that be.

In the past Mahathir Mohammad has made very unpleasant comments about
my country, and it is even less pleasant to me to read about his
uneducated attitude towards the language of his own country.

I am not quite sure that *all* Malay parents, teachers and professors
are very unhappy. The natural condition of any person around the world
is to prefer their own language and to the best of my knowledge,
there's nothing inherent in the Malay language that makes it less
useful than English for teaching math (there could be - see
[[Piraha]]). English can and should be taught separately as a foreign
language, simply because it is, indeed, a useful lingua franca around
the world, but all local languages should be equally respected and
promoted among their speakers.

The article [[Technion]] in en.wp very briefly mentions the "language
war" that occurred when the Institute of Technology in Haifa was
opened in 1912. It deserves a full article, but until i write it,
here's what basically happened: The German philanthropists who
contributed money to the Technion and most of the teachers wanted to
use German in the classroom, while public figures and educators from
among the Jews who lived in Palestine then wanted the language of the
instruction to be Hebrew. Despite the importance of German in exact
sciences and engineering at the time, Hebrew eventually won thanks to
the public pressure and Hebrew language experts of the time worked to
adopt the language to be used in teaching modern science by inventing
new words for the lacking terminology and writing basic textbooks.

Almost a hundred years later: Technion is a respected higher education
institution. Hebrew is still the only language used in the classroom
there (except in lectures by foreign guests). Most textbooks are in
English, though, because few people bothered to translate them, but
that's not a big problem, as the level of English around Israel is
pretty good. It could be better, but i strongly doubt that teaching
math in English in high school would improve it.

Wikimedia projects provide a good platform for developing local
languages, although apparently only vigorous volunteers actually build
Wikipedia's and Wikibooks in their languages. Sakha is a lovely
example of a language project on WMF platform - it develops slowly,
but surely, simply because the people behind it are true enthusiasts
of their language. The interesting point is that the lingua franca
used in their discussions is Russian, and one of the frequent topics
is when to use Russian terminology in Sakha texts and when to use
Sakha neologisms. The discussions themselves are very serious, and
their very existence show a good deal of health of that small, but
vibrant community.

--
אמיר אלישע אהרוני
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Amir E. Aharoni<amir.aharoni@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not quite sure that *all* Malay parents, teachers and professors
> are very unhappy. The natural condition of any person around the world
> is to prefer their own language and to the best of my knowledge,
> there's nothing inherent in the Malay language that makes it less
> useful than English for teaching math (there could be - see
> [[Piraha]]). English can and should be taught separately as a foreign
> language, simply because it is, indeed, a useful lingua franca around
> the world, but all local languages should be equally respected and
> promoted among their speakers.

There is no doubt that education in native language is very important.
At the other side, ethnolinguistic situation in Malaysia (and
especially in Indonesia) is very complex. It may be compared with the
situation in India, when authorities tried to remove English as one of
the official languages and to impose Hindi as the sole federal
language.

You described just one category of linguistic situations: when
technologically dominant group is trying to impose their language to a
native population. All dominant Western language had or have such
situations.

However, at the most of the planet, there are no doubts between
dominant global language and a native one, but between dominant global
and dominant regional/local language. I don't know numbers for
Malaysia ([[Languages of Malaysia]] is almost a stub), but I may
guarantee that Malaysian language for significant part of the
population is not a native language. Or, like in Singapore,
significant part of population knows at native or almost-native level
at least three languages (typical situation may be: Malaysian, English
and native language, which may be a distinctive dialect of Malaysian,
too).

At last, as I pointed before, not knowing English is a significant
handicap for one scientist, even in social sciences. In 20-30 years
the situation will be different, but, we are living and working now,
not in 20-30 years.

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Let us analyse this. The English Wikipedia is quite good at providing
information about Science. The Malay Wikipedia is probably not as good. When
the Malaysian government decides to have teaching to be conducted for many
subjects in Malay, it will not detract anything from the English Wikipedia.
All its information will be there. It will be there for everyone including
people from Malaysia.

With scientific subjects taught in Malay, the audience for quality Wikipedia
articles on science will grow. Consequently it will be more stimulating to
write about scientific articles in Malay.

My conclusion is that nothing is lost for the English language Wikipedia and
there is an opportunity for people to write about science in Malay and make
these articles at least as good as the articles on the English language
Wikipedia.

I do not have an opinion on the Malaysian government teaching in either
English or Malay. With a Wikipedia hat on, I see first and foremost
opportunities. That is not bad.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/7/10 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
>
> The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
> conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
> professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
> science."
>
> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
> other than English.
>
> I'm not sure what to suggest, but it struck me as relevant to language
> issues we face.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
>> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
>> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
>> time as well as field.
>
> English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
> enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
> time for changing lingua franca.

If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into
English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere
would be a good place to start.

-Stevertigo

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 18:31, Gerard Meijssen<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> Let us analyse this. The English Wikipedia is quite good at providing
> information about Science. The Malay Wikipedia is probably not as good.

I don't know how good are the science articles in the Malay WP, but i
can tell that science articles in the Hebrew WP are pretty good, and
this is most certainly a fruit of the early Zionist educators'
insistence on instruction in Hebrew (I am talking about [[Eliezer Ben
Yehuda]] and his followers).

--
אמיר אלישע אהרוני
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
David Gerard wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/world/asia/10iht-malay.html
>
> The Malaysian government has declared that science instruction will be
> conducted in Bahasa rather than English. Parents, teachers and
> professors are very unhappy because "English is the language of
> science."
>
> This sort of thing affects the quality of our projects in languages
> other than English.
>
>
Likely in a positive way because of a need for more and expanded Bahasa
language science articles.

Ec

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
2009/7/10 stevertigo <stvrtg@gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
>>> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
>>> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
>>> time as well as field.
>>
>> English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
>> enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
>> time for changing lingua franca.
>
> If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into
> English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere
> would be a good place to start.

You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the
current English-language teaching in Australia?

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
Well, the Australians obviously need better English as a second
language classes.

Mark

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/7/10 stevertigo <stvrtg@gmail.com>:
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
>>>> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
>>>> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
>>>> time as well as field.
>>>
>>> English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
>>> enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
>>> time for changing lingua franca.
>>
>> If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into
>> English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere
>> would be a good place to start.
>
> You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the
> current English-language teaching in Australia?
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2009/7/10 stevertigo <stvrtg@gmail.com>:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Milos Rancic<millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I remember reading in Isaac Asimov's autobiography how, as a chemist
>>>> in the 1940s, he had to learn French and German well enough to read
>>>> papers in those languages. So the lingua franca in a field varies with
>>>> time as well as field.
>>>>
>>> English is the last lingua franca. In 20-30 years we'll have good
>>> enough translators and in 20-30 years it is not big enough period of
>>> time for changing lingua franca.
>>>
>> If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into
>> English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere
>> would be a good place to start.
>>
> You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the
> current English-language teaching in Australia?
>
Maybe Henry Higgins could answer that.

--Michael Snow

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Re: The problem with native languages vs. the lingua franca [ In reply to ]
Michael Snow wrote:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>> 2009/7/10 stevertigo <stvrtg@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> If someone knows someone, putting eight billion dollars a year into
>>> English-language teaching in Africa, China, Australia and elsewhere
>>> would be a good place to start.
>>>
>> You're going to have to explain that one... what is wrong with the
>> current English-language teaching in Australia?
>>
> Maybe Henry Higgins could answer that.
>
>
Krikey! 'E's 'avin an 'ard enough time teachin' English to the limeys. ;-)

Ec

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