Mailing List Archive: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects

Google Wave and Wikimedia projects

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 12:10 PM

Post #1 of 78 (3067 views)

Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
one hour of presentation [3].

I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
protocol, free software referent implementation.

At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
interaction will be done via Waves.

This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia projects:
* I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
* I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
* I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
Wikipedia articles and my notes.
* I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
* I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
a Wave client...

All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)

[1] - http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/28/1912226/Googles-Wave-Blurs-Chat-Email-Collaboration-Software
[2] - http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-wave.html
[3] - http://wave.google.com/

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

innocentkiller at gmail

May 29, 2009, 12:31 PM

Post #2 of 78 (2986 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> one hour of presentation [3].
>
> I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> protocol, free software referent implementation.
>
> At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> interaction will be done via Waves.
>
> This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia projects:
> * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> a Wave client...
>
> All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)
>
> [1] - http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/28/1912226/Googles-Wave-Blurs-Chat-Email-Collaboration-Software
> [2] - http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-wave.html
> [3] - http://wave.google.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Very cool. Not sure if I buy into the "this is the future of the
internet," but very very cool indeed.

-Chad

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 29, 2009, 12:57 PM

Post #3 of 78 (2985 views)

Hoi,
A programmer friend of mine has had a look at the documentation that is
already available and wants to integrate MediaWiki and Wave. The one thing
that he wants at this time is access to Wave as a developer and realise this
dream...

The question is how do I get access for him. Wave's demoes are quite
awesome, the notion to be able to mash Wikipedia and all the other MediaWiki
content would be as awesome.

Who can help out ?
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/5/29 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>

> Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> one hour of presentation [3].
>
> I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> protocol, free software referent implementation.
>
> At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> interaction will be done via Waves.
>
> This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia
> projects:
> * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> a Wave client...
>
> All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)
>
> [1] -
> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/28/1912226/Googles-Wave-Blurs-Chat-Email-Collaboration-Software
> [2] - http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-wave.html
> [3] - http://wave.google.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 29, 2009, 1:02 PM

Post #4 of 78 (2990 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> Very cool. Not sure if I buy into the "this is the future of the
> internet," but very very cool indeed.

Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. The rest of
it...I dunno...what's the point?
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 4:01 PM

Post #5 of 78 (2995 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who can help out ?

Erik?

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 4:33 PM

Post #6 of 78 (2982 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. The rest of
> it...I dunno...what's the point?

Basically, moving the Internet usage from the client-server model to
the peer-to-peer model with auxiliary role of servers. In other words,
decentralization and personalization of Internet; the process very
different from the centralization and unification [of look and feel]
processes of last ~10 years.

While P2P networks still exist, they are still 'Internet underground".
If Google would be pushing Wave protocol, P2P will become mainstream.

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

innocentkiller at gmail

May 29, 2009, 4:37 PM

Post #7 of 78 (2985 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>> Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. Â The rest of
>> it...I dunno...what's the point?
>
> Basically, moving the Internet usage from the client-server model to
> the peer-to-peer model with auxiliary role of servers. In other words,
> decentralization and personalization of Internet; the process very
> different from the centralization and unification [of look and feel]
> processes of last ~10 years.
>
> While P2P networks still exist, they are still 'Internet underground".
> If Google would be pushing Wave protocol, P2P will become mainstream.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

It's still not really P2P. The server still acts as the intermediary
and is where the data is stored. It's just really fast client-server.

-Chad

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 29, 2009, 4:42 PM

Post #8 of 78 (2984 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> > Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. The rest of
> > it...I dunno...what's the point?
>
> Basically, moving the Internet usage from the client-server model to
> the peer-to-peer model with auxiliary role of servers. In other words,
> decentralization and personalization of Internet; the process very
> different from the centralization and unification [of look and feel]
> processes of last ~10 years.
>

That's an interesting way to look at it...

While P2P networks still exist, they are still 'Internet underground".
> If Google would be pushing Wave protocol, P2P will become mainstream.

That would be great, but wouldn't it also mean the death of Google and
pretty much any company which relies on web advertising to make money? How
do you make money off of P2P? Software and data license fees, I guess, but
is Google really prepared to go to that model? And in a world where P2P
means easy piracy, is the world ready?
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 29, 2009, 4:44 PM

Post #9 of 78 (2985 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> >> Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. The rest
> of
> >> it...I dunno...what's the point?
> >
> > Basically, moving the Internet usage from the client-server model to
> > the peer-to-peer model with auxiliary role of servers. In other words,
> > decentralization and personalization of Internet; the process very
> > different from the centralization and unification [of look and feel]
> > processes of last ~10 years.
> >
> > While P2P networks still exist, they are still 'Internet underground".
> > If Google would be pushing Wave protocol, P2P will become mainstream.
>
> It's still not really P2P. The server still acts as the intermediary
> and is where the data is stored. It's just really fast client-server.

I think the P2P stands for "server2server"... The interserver protocol
being the P2P part...
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

May 29, 2009, 4:50 PM

Post #10 of 78 (2986 views)

2009/5/30 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>> Adding people to a conversation already in progress is cool. Â The rest of
>> it...I dunno...what's the point?
>
> Basically, moving the Internet usage from the client-server model to
> the peer-to-peer model with auxiliary role of servers. In other words,
> decentralization and personalization of Internet; the process very
> different from the centralization and unification [of look and feel]
> processes of last ~10 years.
>
> While P2P networks still exist, they are still 'Internet underground".
> If Google would be pushing Wave protocol, P2P will become mainstream.

I don't get it... this is just MSN Messenger on steroids. It's a great
idea and if it works it should be really useful, but it isn't
world-changing and certainly isn't going to restructure the internet.

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

May 29, 2009, 4:58 PM

Post #11 of 78 (2985 views)

2009/5/30 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:

> I don't get it... this is just MSN Messenger on steroids. It's a great
> idea and if it works it should be really useful, but it isn't
> world-changing and certainly isn't going to restructure the internet.

No, no - it's Google Chat on steroids! With email and groups and uh
other stuff! Picasa! And you can save it all as Knols!

- d.

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 5:10 PM

Post #12 of 78 (2981 views)

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> That would be great, but wouldn't it also mean the death of Google and
> pretty much any company which relies on web advertising to make money? How
> do you make money off of P2P? Software and data license fees, I guess, but
> is Google really prepared to go to that model? And in a world where P2P
> means easy piracy, is the world ready?

Actually, I am very puzzled with that fact. (I don't have a clue how
it looks like, but I suppose that the have the plan :) ) I just listed
consequences of such approach. I was thinking a lot about very very
similar approach, but I was thinking that it is just too radical to be
implemented by one big company.

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

May 29, 2009, 5:12 PM

Post #13 of 78 (2985 views)

2009/5/30 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>> That would be great, but wouldn't it also mean the death of Google and
>> pretty much any company which relies on web advertising to make money? Â How
>> do you make money off of P2P? Â Software and data license fees, I guess, but
>> is Google really prepared to go to that model? Â And in a world where P2P
>> means easy piracy, is the world ready?
>
> Actually, I am very puzzled with that fact. (I don't have a clue how
> it looks like, but I suppose that the have the plan :) ) I just listed
> consequences of such approach. I was thinking a lot about very very
> similar approach, but I was thinking that it is just too radical to be
> implemented by one big company.

The Wave client will surely just have adverts in it, the same as gmail
does... where is the mystery?

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 5:19 PM

Post #14 of 78 (2980 views)

It would be <whatever> on steroids as a proprietary software model or
free-client-proprietary-server model. However, this model have the
same potential as email had a couple of decades ago.

On 2009-05-30, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/5/30 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
>
>> I don't get it... this is just MSN Messenger on steroids. It's a great
>> idea and if it works it should be really useful, but it isn't
>> world-changing and certainly isn't going to restructure the internet.
>
>
> No, no - it's Google Chat on steroids! With email and groups and uh
> other stuff! Picasa! And you can save it all as Knols!
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

May 29, 2009, 5:24 PM

Post #15 of 78 (2982 views)

2009/5/30 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> It would be <whatever> on steroids as a proprietary software model or
> free-client-proprietary-server model. However, this model have the
> same potential as email had a couple of decades ago.

Not really. This isn't that different to existing technology, it's
just bringing together various things we already do. It's a common
feature in the development of technologies, and it's a great thing,
but it isn't anything that is going to change the world. E-mail, once
it let the military/academia, was a completely new thing, there wasn't
anything like it before (the closest thing was telegrams, which
charged by the word, could take a few hours to reach their destination
and couldn't have attachments).

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 29, 2009, 5:27 PM

Post #16 of 78 (2997 views)

I am not so sure about that after watching the video. Their
implementation will be open source.

I think that their main business will be selling storage on servers or
something similar. We'll see...

On 2009-05-30, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/5/30 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
>> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>>> That would be great, but wouldn't it also mean the death of Google and
>>> pretty much any company which relies on web advertising to make money?
>>> How
>>> do you make money off of P2P? Software and data license fees, I guess,
>>> but
>>> is Google really prepared to go to that model? And in a world where P2P
>>> means easy piracy, is the world ready?
>>
>> Actually, I am very puzzled with that fact. (I don't have a clue how
>> it looks like, but I suppose that the have the plan :) ) I just listed
>> consequences of such approach. I was thinking a lot about very very
>> similar approach, but I was thinking that it is just too radical to be
>> implemented by one big company.
>
> The Wave client will surely just have adverts in it, the same as gmail
> does... where is the mystery?
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 29, 2009, 6:55 PM

Post #17 of 78 (2980 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would be <whatever> on steroids as a proprietary software model or
> free-client-proprietary-server model. However, this model have the
> same potential as email had a couple of decades ago.

Probably more comparable to the web than email. But what are people going
to build for it? Geocities?

I guess P2Pedia is finally possible.
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

erik at wikimedia

May 29, 2009, 7:26 PM

Post #18 of 78 (2980 views)

2009/5/29 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> one hour of presentation [3].

I've watched pieces of the presentation, but not the whole thing. Is
it clear at this point exactly how free/open the entire stack is going
to be? I.e. will it have dependencies on proprietary services to work
or work well?

It could be quite compelling. I'm happy to talk to them about early
access on behalf of interested Wikimedia volunteers.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 29, 2009, 8:01 PM

Post #19 of 78 (2995 views)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> 2009/5/29 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> > Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> > I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> > perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> > the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> > Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> > one hour of presentation [3].
>
> I've watched pieces of the presentation, but not the whole thing. Is
> it clear at this point exactly how free/open the entire stack is going
> to be? I.e. will it have dependencies on proprietary services to work
> or work well?

They say that messages which don't have recipients on google's server will
never go through google. So, sounds like the protocol will be completely
open, and that there won't be any dependencies on proprietary services.

They must have something up their sleeves, though.

Or maybe not. How much does Google make off of gmail compared to its total
profits? As a shareholder I guess I should know that.

Maybe they'll keep the search part proprietary. And the translation, spell
checking, and other parts that aren't necessary for the reference
implementation. And hope that's enough.
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 29, 2009, 9:17 PM

Post #20 of 78 (2981 views)

Hoi,
Did you see the presentation on Wave ? If so, you would know that it is not
a given that your wave server would have adverts. It would also be clear
that this content would not necessarily as in not at all be open to Google
to data mine.
Thanks,
GerardM

http://wave.google.com

2009/5/30 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>

> 2009/5/30 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> >> That would be great, but wouldn't it also mean the death of Google and
> >> pretty much any company which relies on web advertising to make money?
> How
> >> do you make money off of P2P? Software and data license fees, I guess,
> but
> >> is Google really prepared to go to that model? And in a world where P2P
> >> means easy piracy, is the world ready?
> >
> > Actually, I am very puzzled with that fact. (I don't have a clue how
> > it looks like, but I suppose that the have the plan :) ) I just listed
> > consequences of such approach. I was thinking a lot about very very
> > similar approach, but I was thinking that it is just too radical to be
> > implemented by one big company.
>
> The Wave client will surely just have adverts in it, the same as gmail
> does... where is the mystery?
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

tstarling at wikimedia

May 29, 2009, 10:13 PM

Post #21 of 78 (2986 views)

Milos Rancic wrote:
> Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> one hour of presentation [3].
>
> I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> protocol, free software referent implementation.

It's not free software. The blog post says they "intend to open source
the code". That generally means the code quality is so bad that they'd
be embarrassed to make it public, and would like to clean it up to the
point where humans can understand it, but currently they have more
important development priorities and no schedule to do such a thing.

> At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> interaction will be done via Waves.

Yeah, sure. Like the way Jabber killed proprietary protocols like MSN
and AIM, right? It's been 9 years since the first release now.

The proprietary IM networks will steal the best ideas from Wave and
add their own bit of marketing spin, which somehow, to the hoards of
faithful users, will seem even cooler than what Google Wave can do.
That's assuming they even perceive a threat.

Anyway, I'm putting two years from today into my calendar. We'll see
then whether Wave has taken over the world. I'll post a followup.

> This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia projects:
> * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> a Wave client...
>
> All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)

You're assuming that they'll be easier to implement using Wave than
just starting from scratch. Note that their widget things are HTML,
and browsers already have rich text editors. An interactive editor
targeting Wave would be quite similar to an interactive editor
targeting the browser.

Browsers are something Microsoft actually supports and packages with
their OS, unlike federated, open-protocol IM clients, which as we've
seen over the past 9 years, they are not interested in. They've even
discontinued their IRC client.

-- Tim Starling

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

May 29, 2009, 10:42 PM

Post #22 of 78 (2974 views)

Hoi,
I have seen the presentation.. I have noticed that there were plenty of
moments where it was stated that this is an early version of the software
and that it needs more polishing. At this same presentation all the
developers that were in this room received an invite to start developing
extensions to Wave. Documentation on how to do this is available.

When you ask external developers to involve themselves with a platform like
Wave, there is a limited amount of time to keep the product from general
availability. When Google would stall too long, it would reflect badly on
their reputation and it would make it more difficult for them to get such
involvement in the future. Google will have a schedule and, I would love to
know this.

At this time all Google has indicated that they are going to Open Source
Wave. For me there are two questions; what license and, how are they going
to manage the underlying protocol.

When Google play their cards right, Wave and its protocols have the
potential to dominate this scene. Given that they are at this very same time
they are getting the message out that Ogg Theora will be supported by
Chrome, they are indicating that concerns about free and open content and
protocols are heard and taken to heart. I am not interested in what
Microsoft has to say about this; their "bing" is not relevant to me because
of Microsoft's policies with their previous incarnations of a search engine.

When "other" people are going to benefit from the ideas that make Wave so
relevant, I can only hope that the Open Source world will be among them.
Given the announcement that Wave will be Open Source, it is important to be
involved and make sure that it will indeed be Open Source and, that the Open
Source paradigm will happen sooner rather then later.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/5/30 Tim Starling <tstarling@wikimedia.org>

> Milos Rancic wrote:
> > Probably, some of you already saw that Google made something for which
> > I think that it will be the new form of the mainstream Internet
> > perception. You may read Slashdot article [1], a good description at
> > the blog "Google Operating System" [2] (not officially connected with
> > Google) and, of course, you may see the official site with more than
> > one hour of presentation [3].
> >
> > I expected such kind of tool (a client connected with others via P2P
> > XML-based protocol; with servers for identification). However, I
> > didn't expect that i will come so soon, that it will be done by one
> > large corporation and that it will be done at the right way: open
> > protocol, free software referent implementation.
>
> It's not free software. The blog post says they "intend to open source
> the code". That generally means the code quality is so bad that they'd
> be embarrassed to make it public, and would like to clean it up to the
> point where humans can understand it, but currently they have more
> important development priorities and no schedule to do such a thing.
>
> > At the official site they said that it will start to work during this
> > year. As one large corporation is behind the project, as well as free
> > and open source community is able to participate, I have no doubts
> > that it will be implemented all over the Internet (and not just
> > Internet) very quickly. Probably, in two years the basic component of
> > one modern operating system will not be a Web browser, but a Wave
> > client. Probably, Web will become a storage system, while all of the
> > interaction will be done via Waves.
>
> Yeah, sure. Like the way Jabber killed proprietary protocols like MSN
> and AIM, right? It's been 9 years since the first release now.
>
> The proprietary IM networks will steal the best ideas from Wave and
> add their own bit of marketing spin, which somehow, to the hoards of
> faithful users, will seem even cooler than what Google Wave can do.
> That's assuming they even perceive a threat.
>
> Anyway, I'm putting two years from today into my calendar. We'll see
> then whether Wave has taken over the world. I'll post a followup.
>
> > This development of Internet is very strongly related to the Wikimedia
> projects:
> > * I want to be able to edit Wikipedia through the Wave client.
> > * I want to add my own notes to articles, history of articles etc.
> > * I want to have collection of my knowledge at one place, including
> > Wikipedia articles and my notes.
> > * I want to be able to make a program which would analyze articles on
> > Wikipedia and to give program and/or analysis to my friends.
> > * I want many more things to be browsable or editable or whatever from
> > a Wave client...
> >
> > All of those my (but, in one year, not just my) wishes may be
> > fulfilled just through work on MediaWiki and Pywikipediabot. So, I am
> > calling all of you who are willing to think about it or who are at the
> > position to think about it -- to start with thinking :)
>
> You're assuming that they'll be easier to implement using Wave than
> just starting from scratch. Note that their widget things are HTML,
> and browsers already have rich text editors. An interactive editor
> targeting Wave would be quite similar to an interactive editor
> targeting the browser.
>
> Browsers are something Microsoft actually supports and packages with
> their OS, unlike federated, open-protocol IM clients, which as we've
> seen over the past 9 years, they are not interested in. They've even
> discontinued their IRC client.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

cimonavaro at gmail

May 30, 2009, 12:27 AM

Post #23 of 78 (2969 views)

Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
> E-mail, once
> it let the military/academia, was a completely new thing, there wasn't
> anything like it before (the closest thing was telegrams, which
> charged by the word, could take a few hours to reach their destination
> and couldn't have attachments).
>
>

Not even courier mail?

Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

May 30, 2009, 3:49 AM

Post #24 of 78 (2960 views)

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> It's not free software. The blog post says they "intend to open source
> the code". That generally means the code quality is so bad that they'd
> be embarrassed to make it public, and would like to clean it up to the
> point where humans can understand it, but currently they have more
> important development priorities and no schedule to do such a thing.

This is why that (very long) presentation is important. They clearly
said that they want to make their implementation as the referent open
source implementation.

> Yeah, sure. Like the way Jabber killed proprietary protocols like MSN
> and AIM, right? It's been 9 years since the first release now.

This is a completely other path. As I said, I thought that the
development of something almost identical to the Wave would be much
slower. However, at this point, there is one large corporation behind
it and it is not partially, like they are behind XMPP with their
Gtalk.

> The proprietary IM networks will steal the best ideas from Wave and
> add their own bit of marketing spin, which somehow, to the hoards of
> faithful users, will seem even cooler than what Google Wave can do.
> That's assuming they even perceive a threat.

Yes, this is potential problem.

> Anyway, I'm putting two years from today into my calendar. We'll see
> then whether Wave has taken over the world. I'll post a followup.

:)

> You're assuming that they'll be easier to implement using Wave than
> just starting from scratch. Note that their widget things are HTML,
> and browsers already have rich text editors. An interactive editor
> targeting Wave would be quite similar to an interactive editor
> targeting the browser.

Actually, they did everything with their web toolkit. And, as they
said, all of the code pieces will be free. They explained that you
would be able to make your own implementation based on their code.
Hm... Find one hour and take a look into the presentation. It would be
better than my tries to explain it to you.

> Browsers are something Microsoft actually supports and packages with
> their OS, unlike federated, open-protocol IM clients, which as we've
> seen over the past 9 years, they are not interested in. They've even
> discontinued their IRC client.

There will be web interface, too.

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Re: Google Wave and Wikimedia projects [ In reply to ]

wikimail at inbox

May 30, 2009, 4:24 AM

Post #25 of 78 (2954 views)

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
> > Yeah, sure. Like the way Jabber killed proprietary protocols like MSN
> > and AIM, right? It's been 9 years since the first release now.
>
> This is a completely other path. As I said, I thought that the
> development of something almost identical to the Wave would be much
> slower. However, at this point, there is one large corporation behind
> it and it is not partially, like they are behind XMPP with their
> Gtalk.

If AOL had built XMPP into AIM in 1997, the story would have played out much
differently.

> The proprietary IM networks will steal the best ideas from Wave and
> > add their own bit of marketing spin, which somehow, to the hoards of
> > faithful users, will seem even cooler than what Google Wave can do.
> > That's assuming they even perceive a threat.
>
> Yes, this is potential problem.

It's weird, because what I see as the killer apps for this have nothing to
do with instant messaging, and nothing to do with email either.

I'm not sure if it'll catch on, because Google seems to have added so much
extraneous crap into the mix, but given the ability of people to adapt
Google services to novel uses, maybe it will catch on.

I don't plan on replacing my email or instant messenger with this (though
hopefully plain old vanilla gmail will be built in and I won't have to). I
might replace my Google Reader, though, when someone comes up with an RSS
bot. I might also replace a few private wikis I have, especially if my
friends on those private wikis find Wave easier to use.

My initial dislike of the idea turned when I stopped trying to think of Wave
as email, as Google is pushing it.

> Browsers are something Microsoft actually supports and packages with
> > their OS, unlike federated, open-protocol IM clients, which as we've
> > seen over the past 9 years, they are not interested in. They've even
> > discontinued their IRC client.
>
> There will be web interface, too.

I thought that's all it was was a web interface... IIRC the preview was run
in Chrome and Firefox, wasn't it?
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