Mailing List Archive: Divergent Wiktionary logos

Divergent Wiktionary logos

cary at wikimedia

Mar 24, 2009, 3:20 PM

Post #1 of 25 (3602 views)

Hi all,

The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
completely different logos. [1], [2]

The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.

I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
some. The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
diverges wildly from project to project. Of the top ten Wiktionary
projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
variation of the classic version:

fr: new
en: classic
tr: new
vi: new
ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
io: classic (English version)
el: new
zh: classic (divergent variation)
pl: classic (divergent variation)
fi: classic (English version)

As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating. The
new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
least, the English Wiktionary community.

I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.

Cary

[1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
[2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
[3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

jwalsh at wikimedia

Mar 24, 2009, 5:04 PM

Post #2 of 25 (3542 views)

Hi all,

Just wanted to second Cary's note - we talked about it briefly today.
A single brand identity for the project would be so much stronger, so
I encourage discussion on the matter. I completely appreciate the
challenges and how things have evolved up to this point, but it would
certainly be worth a deeper discussion and resolution.

Generally speaking we want to ensure all of the brand identities line
up across languages. I'm always impressed by the simple and elegant
way the project marks get localized in other languages/scripts but
still nicely translate with the visual style.

Best,

--
Jay Walsh
Head of Communications
WikimediaFoundation.org
+1 (415) 839 6885 x 609

On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Cary Bass wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
> completely different logos. [1], [2]
>
> The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
> place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
> the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
> they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
>
> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> some. The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> diverges wildly from project to project. Of the top ten Wiktionary
> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> variation of the classic version:
>
> fr: new
> en: classic
> tr: new
> vi: new
> ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
> io: classic (English version)
> el: new
> zh: classic (divergent variation)
> pl: classic (divergent variation)
> fi: classic (English version)
>
> As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
> visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
> should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
> identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating. The
> new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
> least, the English Wiktionary community.
>
> I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
> be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
> of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
> process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
> recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
>
> Cary
>
> [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
> [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
> [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
>

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

spacebirdy at gmail

Mar 24, 2009, 5:28 PM

Post #3 of 25 (3550 views)

Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as copyright
issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most ugly
thing I have ever seen.

Btw.: from alexa.com:
Where people go on Wiktionary.org:

- en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
- de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
- fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
- ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
- es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
- ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
- pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
- pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
- it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
- el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo

Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...

Best regards, E.

2009/3/25 Jay Walsh <jwalsh@wikimedia.org>

> Hi all,
>
> Just wanted to second Cary's note - we talked about it briefly today.
> A single brand identity for the project would be so much stronger, so
> I encourage discussion on the matter. I completely appreciate the
> challenges and how things have evolved up to this point, but it would
> certainly be worth a deeper discussion and resolution.
>
> Generally speaking we want to ensure all of the brand identities line
> up across languages. I'm always impressed by the simple and elegant
> way the project marks get localized in other languages/scripts but
> still nicely translate with the visual style.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> +1 (415) 839 6885 x 609
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Cary Bass wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The two largest Wiktionary projects (English and French) have two
> > completely different logos. [1], [2]
> >
> > The reason for this, from what I understand, is that a vote was taken
> > place about the logo fr.wiktionary currently has, on meta [3]; which
> > the English Wiktionary community chose not to be bound by, because
> > they, as a community, disagreed with the outcome.
> >
> > I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> > closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> > some. The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> > logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> > diverges wildly from project to project. Of the top ten Wiktionary
> > projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> > variation of the classic version:
> >
> > fr: new
> > en: classic
> > tr: new
> > vi: new
> > ru: classic (a variation which little resembles the original)
> > io: classic (English version)
> > el: new
> > zh: classic (divergent variation)
> > pl: classic (divergent variation)
> > fi: classic (English version)
> >
> > As a whole, I seem to remember that Wiktionary is the second most
> > visited site of the Foundation's websites, and I really do think it
> > should be appropriate that the site should reflect a common visual
> > identity, one that the classic logo does a poor job of creating. The
> > new logo, however, met with rather heavy resistance in, at the very
> > least, the English Wiktionary community.
> >
> > I do, rather strongly, believe that the Wiktionary identity needs to
> > be squared away, having some poll in general inclusive of, yet binding
> > of all Wiktionary projects, and then if that fails, starting the
> > process again, and succeeding to foment an individual logo like the
> > recent successful Wikibooks logo revamp.
> >
> > Cary
> >
> > [1] <http://en.wiktionary.org>
> > [2] <http://fr.wiktionary.org>
> > [3] <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo>
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

yann at forget-me

Mar 25, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #4 of 25 (3541 views)

Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
> Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
> the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as copyright
> issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most ugly
> thing I have ever seen.
>
> Btw.: from alexa.com:
> Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
>
> - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
> - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
> - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
> - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
> - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
> - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
> - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
> - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
> - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
> - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
>
> Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...

I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
Wiktionary because of the logo.

> Best regards, E.

Regards,

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

nawrich at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 8:17 AM

Post #5 of 25 (3561 views)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net> wrote:

>
> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
> attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
> Wiktionary because of the logo.
>
> > Best regards, E.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
>

No, they don't, but since the more trafficked sites are likely to be more
complete and with a larger community... You can infer that there are more
people for the logo than against it, as demonstrated by which communities
use it and which do not.

If there were specific issues with the new logo that remain unaddressed,
perhaps the best thing to do is design a new logo that may not have those
same problems?

The old logo is owned by the WMF, but the new logo doesn't appear in the
Wikimedia Images category on the foundation wiki. Who owns the scrabble-like
logo? As a last resort, would the Foundation impose a logo scheme on a
project type where the communities couldn't come to consensus?

Last - should be noted that the wikimediafoundation.org site and the
www.wiktionary.org use the old 'logo' to represent all Wiktionary projects.

Nathan
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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

spacebirdy at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 9:28 AM

Post #6 of 25 (3529 views)

You do get me wrong, I am not justifying the old logo, it is not a logo,
but the new logo is not accepted by many communities and there is a dispute
going on for long time now [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and I do not recommend
to force all these communities with something ugly like that after all these
failed attempts to get them to accept it.
If there would be someone able to design a new one from the scratch,
something that looks more serious and not like a kindergarden sign, maybe
that might get more projectwide acception.

E.

[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo#Trademark_infringement
[2]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-November/subject.html
[3]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-February/subject.html
[4]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-January/subject.html
[5]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2006-September/subject.html

2009/3/25 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>

> Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
> > Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue,
> > the problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as
> copyright
> > issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO the most
> ugly
> > thing I have ever seen.
> >
> > Btw.: from alexa.com:
> > Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
> >
> > - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo
> > - de.wiktionary.org - 12.8% <- old logo
> > - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo
> > - ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo
> > - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1% <- old logo
> > - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo
> > - pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo
> > - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3% <- old logo
> > - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo
> > - el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
> >
> > Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...
>
> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a poor
> attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web site like
> Wiktionary because of the logo.
>
> > Best regards, E.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cary at wikimedia

Mar 25, 2009, 9:32 AM

Post #7 of 25 (3526 views)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'd like to propose the following page:

<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be opened for
arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.

I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
projects and managing the page, as well.

Cary

Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
> You do get me wrong, I am not justifying the old logo, it is not a
> logo, but the new logo is not accepted by many communities and
> there is a dispute going on for long time now [1], [2], [3], [4],
> [5], and I do not recommend to force all these communities with
> something ugly like that after all these failed attempts to get
> them to accept it. If there would be someone able to design a new
> one from the scratch, something that looks more serious and not
> like a kindergarden sign, maybe that might get more projectwide
> acception.
>
> E.
>
> [1]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo#Trademark_infringement
> [2]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-November/subject.html
> [3]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-February/subject.html
> [4]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2007-January/subject.html
> [5]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wiktionary-l/2006-September/subject.html
>
>
>
> 2009/3/25 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>
>
>> Elisabeth Anderl wrote:
>>> Hello all, this is a very old and often discussed issue, the
>>> problems raised with the logo were not yet addressed (such as
>> copyright
>>> issues, which characters to use), and the new 'logo' is IMHO
>>> the most
>> ugly
>>> thing I have ever seen.
>>>
>>> Btw.: from alexa.com: Where people go on Wiktionary.org:
>>>
>>> - en.wiktionary.org - 48.6% <- old logo - de.wiktionary.org -
>>> 12.8% <- old logo - fr.wiktionary.org - 9.7% <- new logo -
>>> ru.wiktionary.org - 3.6% <- old logo - es.wiktionary.org - 3.1%
>>> <- old logo - ja.wiktionary.org - 2.9% <- old logo -
>>> pl.wiktionary.org - 2.4% <- old logo - pt.wiktionary.org - 2.3%
>>> <- old logo - it.wiktionary.org - 1.6% <- new logo -
>>> el.wiktionary.org - 1.5% <- new logo
>>>
>>> Guess how many Wiktionarians apprently like the new logo...
>> I didn't take part in the discussion and the vote, but this is a
>> poor attempt to justify the old logo. People do not look at a web
>> site like Wiktionary because of the logo.
>>
>>> Best regards, E.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la
>> non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
>> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
>> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>>
>> _______________________________________________ foundation-l
>> mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________ foundation-l
> mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

nawrich at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 9:46 AM

Post #8 of 25 (3538 views)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I'd like to propose the following page:
>
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be opened for
> arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.
>
> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
> projects and managing the page, as well.
>
> Cary
>

Goes to the question of who determines the logo to be used, doesn't it? If
the meta vote approves the new logo, but a vote on en.wikt does not, which
is binding? Can meta participants vote to change any logo?

Nathan
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 9:49 AM

Post #9 of 25 (3521 views)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
> projects and managing the page, as well.
>

CentralNotice on all wiktionaries? :-)

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cary at wikimedia

Mar 25, 2009, 9:52 AM

Post #10 of 25 (3535 views)

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Hash: SHA1

Nathan wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I'd like to propose the following page:
>>
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> be
>> opened for arguments and vote on it start in a weeks time.
>>
>> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
>> projects and managing the page, as well.
>>
>> Cary
>>
>
> Goes to the question of who determines the logo to be used, doesn't
> it? If the meta vote approves the new logo, but a vote on en.wikt
> does not, which is binding? Can meta participants vote to change
> any logo?
>
> Nathan
Of course Meta participants can vote; Wiktionary isn't solely "owned"
by the people who most actively use it. It's a Wikimedia project,
first and foremost. I generally expect most people who use Meta to
respectfully give weight to the Wiktionarians, however, and not just
"vote" on impulse. Most of us do that.

And to ensure that we have Wiktionarian participation, this is where
"advertising" comes in. It should be promoted on the Village Pumps
and mailing lists, as well as on IRC. I don't think there's much more
we can do. If people don't pay attention to any of those, then I
can't see how much interest they actually have in their community.
(of course, one could also put it up in the Sitenotice).

Cary
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cary at wikimedia

Mar 25, 2009, 9:54 AM

Post #11 of 25 (3534 views)

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Casey Brown wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>> I'd also like considerable help in advertising it throughout the
>> projects and managing the page, as well.
>>
>
> CentralNotice on all wiktionaries? :-)
When we get the discussion on a firm page and not "refresh" :-)

Cary
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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

nawrich at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 10:36 AM

Post #12 of 25 (3535 views)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Of course Meta participants can vote; Wiktionary isn't solely "owned"
> by the people who most actively use it. It's a Wikimedia project,
> first and foremost. I generally expect most people who use Meta to
> respectfully give weight to the Wiktionarians, however, and not just
> "vote" on impulse. Most of us do that.
>

Sure - the first part of what I wrote (discussing a conflict of vote
outcomes) related specifically to Wiktionary, the second part was more
general. Given the status of the logos as marks of the Foundation, can the
meta community vote to change any logo? If not, what is the 'right way' to
pursue a logo change - using a staff driven process like this one, where the
vote is more confirmatory than determinant?

Nathan
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Mar 25, 2009, 1:06 PM

Post #13 of 25 (3526 views)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> With the refusal of the logo by many wiktionaries, a precedent was set.

If a precedent was set then, then it was reversed by the successful
Wikibooks logo change: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikibooks/Logo>

As should be the case, when that happened it was enforced and all the
projects were updated -- if they had no translation, they were given a
plane version without any words (this could later be translated and
requested on bugzilla). The Wikibooks way is probably the best way to
go about it.

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure - the first part of what I wrote (discussing a conflict of vote
> outcomes) related specifically to Wiktionary, the second part was more
> general. Given the status of the logos as marks of the Foundation, can the
> meta community vote to change any logo?

It's not "the Meta community". If a vote is held on Meta-Wiki in the
mainspace (not Meta: space), then it has to do with multiple projects
and we use Meta-Wiki because it is the "Wikimedia project coordination
wiki". This means that the vote is intended for all communities and
they are the ones who vote and discuss.

> If not, what is the 'right way' to
> pursue a logo change - using a staff driven process like this one, where the
> vote is more confirmatory than determinant?

IMO, the process doesn't need to be staff-*driven*, but they need to
be involved and know about the progress of the change. This being
said, their input would be valuable and would mean a lot -- if Jay
says "no, this isn't going to happen", I think that would either make
it so that the proposal wouldn't move forward or people would be less
likely to vote in favor of it.

--
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Cbrown1023

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

dmcdevit at cox

Mar 25, 2009, 1:41 PM

Post #14 of 25 (3528 views)

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> >
> > When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a process will
> > start with a compulsory outcome. I understand the rationale for one shared
> > logo and favicon. The problem is that it is people outside of Wiktionary
> > that want to improve the Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very
> > much these outsiders that made the selection.
> >
>

Exactly. Despite the fact that fr.wikt and a few others eventually
adopted the logo, the logo debacle was not en.wikt's making. It wasn't a
refusal to accept the the outcome of the proposal, it was a reluctance
to be dictated to by people who weren't a part of the community. I'm
afraid this will be interpreted the same way, if we're proposing to just
slap a sitenotice on all the Wiktionaries telling them to discuss a new
logo. There needs to be community impetus for the change, so that the
meta discussion evolves out of actual community desire for a new logo.
We should start at places like en.wikt's [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour]],
fr.wikt's [[Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie]], and es.wikt's
[[Wikcionario:Café]], not foundation-l.

Dominic

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cary at wikimedia

Mar 25, 2009, 2:30 PM

Post #15 of 25 (3515 views)

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Dominic wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>>> When I read what is proposed, the impression is given that a
>>> process will start with a compulsory outcome. I understand the
>>> rationale for one shared logo and favicon. The problem is that
>>> it is people outside of Wiktionary that want to improve the
>>> Wiktionary "brand" and the last time it was very much these
>>> outsiders that made the selection.
>>>
>>
>
>
> Exactly. Despite the fact that fr.wikt and a few others eventually
> adopted the logo, the logo debacle was not en.wikt's making. It
> wasn't a refusal to accept the the outcome of the proposal, it was
> a reluctance to be dictated to by people who weren't a part of the
> community. I'm afraid this will be interpreted the same way, if
> we're proposing to just slap a sitenotice on all the Wiktionaries
> telling them to discuss a new logo. There needs to be community
> impetus for the change, so that the meta discussion evolves out of
> actual community desire for a new logo. We should start at places
> like en.wikt's [[Wiktionary:Beer parlour]], fr.wikt's
> [[Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie]], and es.wikt's [[Wikcionario:Café]], not
> foundation-l.
I have to respectfully disagree that a proposal that will affect all
these projects has to originate in thirty different places. Since
there is no central Wiktionary community, the Meta project, and
Foundation-l as well as Wiktionary-l (which was cross-posted) is the
place to get the discussion going.

While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
one logo has to be used across projects, whether or not the English
Wiktionary wants it or not. The discussion has to get started, no
matter where it is, and meta and the two mailing lists are, in fact,
the appropriate place to start the discussion. I do expect (and have
asked) that links to that discussion are made from those projects (and
in the Central Notice as well)

I would find it sad if the English Wiktionary were to choose not to
involve itself in a process that will ultimately affect its
appearance; however, I don't anticipate this will actually be the case.

Cary
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cary at wikimedia

Mar 25, 2009, 2:37 PM

Post #16 of 25 (3520 views)

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Cary Bass wrote:
> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
> with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
> one logo has to be used across projects, whether or not the English
> Wiktionary wants it or not.
I'd like a chance to rephrase this, for poor grammar, as well as
unintended harshness.

The Wiktionary projects should maintain a unique visual identity. It
is of the utmost importance that the identity be unique to Wiktionary,
but common among the projects.

Also, I want to point out: Guillaume Paumier did a great presentation
at Wikimania 2007 on Visual Identity here:
<http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:GP1>

The PDF linked has some well-researched information about Visual
Identity, and the workshop was extremely interesting.

Cary

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

wikipedia at verizon

Mar 25, 2009, 10:51 PM

Post #17 of 25 (3505 views)

Cary Bass wrote:
> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
> with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
> one logo has to be used across projects
My impression is that the current split is a natural result of the fact
that nobody has yet put forward a satisfactory solution. The "classic"
logo is not a logo at all, but has the inertia of long use. The new logo
would give some consistency but is not compelling, a mixture of good
ideas and serious flaws. Since it's not a clear upgrade in the way that
the Wikipedia logo was, it's not surprising that different parts of the
project have decided not to go with it.

Given that background, I would conclude that neither of the current
options is desirable, and we need to develop a new Wiktionary logo. I
think a well-executed logo would not have much difficulty securing
adoption across the project. My own suggestion would be to use
individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
press. This would incorporate some aspects of both current logos - from
the older one the feel of a dictionary, and from the newer one the more
logo-like benefits, while dropping the appearance of game pieces. As I'm
not a graphic designer, I'm not going to attempt to actually create the
logo, but I would be very interested to see what someone with
professional skills could come up with using this concept.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Mar 26, 2009, 1:34 PM

Post #18 of 25 (3495 views)

On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net> wrote:
> Given that background, I would conclude that neither of the current
> options is desirable, and we need to develop a new Wiktionary logo.

Yes, that's what Cary brought up. :-) On
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh> people have
the option of commenting on whether or not they think we should use
the 'classic' logo, the 'tile' logo, or design a new logo. He
specifically set it up so that "If none of the three options gains a
clear majority at the end of the second week of voting, then [he]
propose[s] the vote default to option three."

> My own suggestion would be to use
> individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
> press.

Though actual proposals for new logos will be accepted later (once it
is decided how things will work), you can leave a comment about how
you feel here: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Begin_from_Scratch>
:-)

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

james at jdforrester

Mar 26, 2009, 1:56 PM

Post #19 of 25 (3490 views)

2009/3/26 Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net> wrote:
>> My own suggestion would be to use
>> individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
>> press.
>
> Though actual proposals for new logos will be accepted later (once it
> is decided how things will work), you can leave a comment about how
> you feel here: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Begin_from_Scratch>
> :-)

Well, I did a really quick-and-dirty view of what Michael's
tiles-logo-but-actually-movable-type image might look like. It's
completely awful - I can't draw, and my Inkscape skills are worse -
but I offer it up anyway: :-)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WiktionaryFr-JDF_movable_type_idea_sketch.svg

The off-green was me failing to be bothered enough to find a gunmetal
grey transition shade pair, and of course it's the same rough image
just rotated and resized as appropriate, but... :-)

J.
--
James D. Forrester
jdforrester@wikimedia.org | jdforrester@gmail.com
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

adhair at gmail

Mar 26, 2009, 5:30 PM

Post #20 of 25 (3485 views)

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> some. The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> diverges wildly from project to project. Of the top ten Wiktionary
> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> variation of the classic version:

I agree 100% that there should be a common brand to all Wiktionary projects.

I also understand why the majority of them haven't adopted the proposed logo.

I'm glad that this has been brought to Foundation-l, and
wholeheartedly support a reconsideration of this decision with a
broader audienceâ€”after all, a project's logo affects the overall
Wikimedia brand identity, not just those closely involved with that
project.

For my money, by the way, I think we should start over.

Austin

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Re: Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

geo.plrd at yahoo

Mar 26, 2009, 7:18 PM

Post #21 of 25 (3492 views)

I agree with Austin. We cannot just force communities to adopt this new thing. Lets try for a clean start.

________________________________
From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:30:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> I understand that there are complaints that new logo has elements too
> closely resembling Scrabble pieces, or are otherwise too cartooned to
> some. The "new" logo does maintain some visual identity as a project
> logo, while the "classic" logo isn't really a logo at all, and
> diverges wildly from project to project. Of the top ten Wiktionary
> projects, four of them use the new version, while 6 of them use some
> variation of the classic version:

I agree 100% that there should be a common brand to all Wiktionary projects.

I also understand why the majority of them haven't adopted the proposed logo.

I'm glad that this has been brought to Foundation-l, and
wholeheartedly support a reconsideration of this decision with a
broader audienceâ€”after all, a project's logo affects the overall
Wikimedia brand identity, not just those closely involved with that
project.

For my money, by the way, I think we should start over.

Austin

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

stephen.bain at gmail

Mar 26, 2009, 10:48 PM

Post #22 of 25 (3448 views)

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My own suggestion would be to use
>> individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
>> press.
>
> Though actual proposals for new logos will be accepted later (once it
> is decided how things will work), you can leave a comment about how
> you feel here: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Begin_from_Scratch>
> :-)

I couldn't resist making a prototype:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Suggestion

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain@gmail.com

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

huskyr at gmail

Mar 27, 2009, 4:21 AM

Post #23 of 25 (3454 views)

I couldn't resist the same urge :)

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wiktionary_husky.svg

This is actually a submission from an earlier proposal for the Wikibooks logo.

-- Hay

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My own suggestion would be to use
>>> individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
>>> press.
>>
>> Though actual proposals for new logos will be accepted later (once it
>> is decided how things will work), you can leave a comment about how
>> you feel here: <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Begin_from_Scratch>
>> :-)
>
> I couldn't resist making a prototype:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Suggestion
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> stephen.bain@gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Mar 27, 2009, 4:36 AM

Post #24 of 25 (3462 views)

Hoi,
What would the to be associate favicon look like ?
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/3/27 Hay (Husky) <huskyr@gmail.com>

> I couldn't resist the same urge :)
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wiktionary_husky.svg
>
> This is actually a submission from an earlier proposal for the Wikibooks
> logo.
>
> -- Hay
>
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Casey Brown <cbrown1023.ml@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> My own suggestion would be to use
> >>> individual blocks but to have them be like type pieces from a printing
> >>> press.
> >>
> >> Though actual proposals for new logos will be accepted later (once it
> >> is decided how things will work), you can leave a comment about how
> >> you feel here: <
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Begin_from_Scratch>
> >> :-)
> >
> > I couldn't resist making a prototype:
> >
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiktionary/logo/refresh#Suggestion
> >
> > --
> > Stephen Bain
> > stephen.bain@gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Divergent Wiktionary logos [ In reply to ]

brion at wikimedia

Mar 27, 2009, 12:11 PM

Post #25 of 25 (3433 views)

On 3/25/09 10:51 PM, Michael Snow wrote:
> Cary Bass wrote:
>> While the English Wiktionary community may or may not be satisfied
>> with the logo as-is, in the interest of maintaining a visual identity,
>> one logo has to be used across projects
> My impression is that the current split is a natural result of the fact
> that nobody has yet put forward a satisfactory solution. The "classic"
> logo is not a logo at all, but has the inertia of long use.

Just as background -- I created the current logo over the course of
about 5 minutes as a placeholder, figuring it would be replaced with a
more permanent logo within a few weeks.

It's been about 6 years. :)

-- brion

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