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Hoi,
There is a request to rename the no.wikipedia.org to
nb.wikipedia.orgexactly for this reason.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/1/21 Jüvä Sullõv <juvasul@ut.ee>

> Thanks for congaratulations, Gerard!
>
> I am not still very sure if the fact that codes "est" and "et" have made to
> a
> macrolanguage codes nessesserely means that et.wikipedia must be renamed to
> ekk.wikipedia.
>
> At least Norwegian (Bokmal) wikipedia exists as no.wikipedia though "no" is
> a
> macrolanguage code and Bokmål has its own code "nob". I think that is
> normal and the
> et.wikipedia code could be left the same as well.
>
> J.S.
>
>
> 21.01.2009 15:51:27 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> kirot':
>
> >
> >
> > Kuupäiv:Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:27 +0100
> >
> > Teema: Re: [Wikipedia-l] vro
> > Kost: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > Kohe: juvasul@ut.ee, Language committee <
> langcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
> > Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hoi,
> > Congratulations.
> >
> > As a consequence of the recognition of the Võro language, the Estonian
> > language with the codes est and et has been made a macro language. This
> > macro language contains two languages, Võro and Standard Estonian.
> Standard
> > Estonian has the code of ekk.
> >
> > It is appropriate to rename the et.wikipedia.org as a consequence.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=est
> >
> > 2009/1/21 Jüvä Sullõv <juvasul@ut.ee>
> > Dear wikipedians!
> >
> > The Võro language has now its own ISO 639-3 language code - vro.
> > So probably the temporary code fiu-vro for Võro Wikipedia has to be
> replaced
> > soon.
> >
> > New download tables incorporating all the announced changes are now
> > available at:
> > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/download.asp
> >
> > The index of 2008 change requests (completed) may be found at:
> >
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_requests.asp?order=CR_Number&chg_status=2008
> >
> > Greetings from Võro,
> > Jüvä Sullõv (Võrok)
> > Võro Vikipeediä
> >
> > --
> > VVV - võro värk võrgon
> > aoleht http://www.umaleht.ee
> > sõnaraamat http://www.folklore.ee/Synaraamat
> > entsüklopeediä http://fiu-vro.wikipedia.org
> > puutri http://math.ut.ee/~vlaan/vtk/vtk.html<http://math.ut.ee/%7Evlaan/vtk/vtk.html>
> > multifilmiq http://www.lastekas.ee/?go=multikaq
> > raadio http://www.vikerraadio.ee/kuularhiiv?saade=66&kid=191
> > Tarto Ãœlikuul http://www.ut.ee/lekeskus
> > Võro Instituut http://www.wi.ee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
> --
> VVV - võro värk võrgon
> aoleht http://www.umaleht.ee
> sõnaraamat http://www.folklore.ee/Synaraamat
> entsüklopeediä http://fiu-vro.wikipedia.org
> puutri http://math.ut.ee/~vlaan/vtk/vtk.html<http://math.ut.ee/%7Evlaan/vtk/vtk.html>
> multifilmiq http://www.lastekas.ee/?go=multikaq
> raadio http://www.vikerraadio.ee/kuularhiiv?saade=66&kid=191
> Tarto Ãœlikuul http://www.ut.ee/lekeskus
> Võro Instituut http://www.wi.ee
>
>
>
>
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I am happy, that Voro got its own code and I fully support to move
'fiu-vro' to 'vro'. But I think this also demonstrates, that ISO is to
some degree out of touch with reality or at least quite inconsistent
with its codes.
Why did they declare 'et' to be synonymous to the macrolanguage? 'et'
was always intended to mean 'Standard Estonian' in earlier revisions of
ISO 639 (cause ISO 639 was created in a time when non-standard languages
and minorities did not or were not supposed to produce books [and the
internet wasn't invented]. There was no need for codes other than
standard languages). 'de' for example is synonymous to 'deu' (Standard
German), although there are several codes like 'bar', 'gsw' or 'ksh'
that would fit under the roof of a 'de' macrolanguage just in the same
way as 'vro' fits under the roof of an 'et' macrolanguage. But they are
handled differently nonetheless.
I oppose to move et.wikipedia to ekk.wikipedia and I think this would be
a really bad service to the et.wikipedia community.

Marcus Buck

Gerard Meijssen hett schreven:
> Hoi,
> Congratulations.
>
> As a consequence of the recognition of the Võro language, the Estonian
> language with the codes est and et has been made a macro language. This
> macro language contains two languages, Võro and Standard Estonian. Standard
> Estonian has the code of ekk.
>
> It is appropriate to rename the et.wikipedia.org as a consequence.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=est
>
> 2009/1/21 Jüvä Sullõv <juvasul@ut.ee>
>


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Hoi,
This change for Estonian is not special. It has happened before where other
codes changed their meaning and became a "macro language". German (de) is a
completely different type of language, in several ways it is more like
Italian. I do not understand where you got this "standard Estonian" from, it
has always been "Estonian" and did not have any qualifiers. nl is Dutch not
standard Dutch and en is English not standard English. I also fail to
understand why ISO-639-1 had only "standard" languages.. what do you mean by
a standard language?

It is nice that you oppose, there are reasons why it might be a bad idea,
but the ones that I know are not the ones you put forward. A reason why a
change would be good is that it will prevent confusion. Hierarchically ekk
and vro are on the same level and et is on a higher level.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/1/21 Marcus Buck <me@marcusbuck.org>

> I am happy, that Voro got its own code and I fully support to move
> 'fiu-vro' to 'vro'. But I think this also demonstrates, that ISO is to
> some degree out of touch with reality or at least quite inconsistent
> with its codes.
> Why did they declare 'et' to be synonymous to the macrolanguage? 'et'
> was always intended to mean 'Standard Estonian' in earlier revisions of
> ISO 639 (cause ISO 639 was created in a time when non-standard languages
> and minorities did not or were not supposed to produce books [and the
> internet wasn't invented]. There was no need for codes other than
> standard languages). 'de' for example is synonymous to 'deu' (Standard
> German), although there are several codes like 'bar', 'gsw' or 'ksh'
> that would fit under the roof of a 'de' macrolanguage just in the same
> way as 'vro' fits under the roof of an 'et' macrolanguage. But they are
> handled differently nonetheless.
> I oppose to move et.wikipedia to ekk.wikipedia and I think this would be
> a really bad service to the et.wikipedia community.
>
> Marcus Buck
>
> Gerard Meijssen hett schreven:
> > Hoi,
> > Congratulations.
> >
> > As a consequence of the recognition of the Võro language, the Estonian
> > language with the codes est and et has been made a macro language. This
> > macro language contains two languages, Võro and Standard Estonian.
> Standard
> > Estonian has the code of ekk.
> >
> > It is appropriate to rename the et.wikipedia.org as a consequence.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=est
> >
> > 2009/1/21 Jüvä Sullõv <juvasul@ut.ee>
> >
>
>
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>
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Prevent confusion from whom?

I think we should let the et.wp community vote on this change instead
of letting Gerard push it on them.

Võro Wikipedians know to go to http://fiu-vro.wikipedia.org/, non-Võro
Estonian Wikipedians know to go to http://et.wikipedia.org/

Introducing a new URL for Võro is one thing; forcing Estonians to have
a new URL is entirely different and ridiculous in my opinion.

Mark

--
skype: node.ue

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Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> It is nice that you oppose, there are reasons why it might be a
> bad idea, but the ones that I know are not the ones you put
> forward. A reason why a change would be good is that it will
> prevent confusion.

Come on, nobody is confused about what language Estonian is. If
giving a language code to a local dialect means we have to rename
all URLs for one of the major Wikipedias (Estonian is the 34th
biggest, Bokmål is the 13th biggest), this only means we have to
oppose all future assignments of new ISO language codes. It is OK
to use the standard when naming new Wikipedias, but it's not OK to
suddenly change a well-known address.

We're here to spread free knowledge. That is not helped by
renaming all of our URLs just because of some random ISO standard
change. The no and et Wikipedias should be kept as they are.


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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I agree on 'et', but the 'no' case is different. the codes 'no', 'nb'
and 'nn' were present in ISO 639 since the beginning. 'no' is the code
that covers both 'nn' and 'nb'. When 'nn' split from 'no' it would have
been good, if 'no' had been moved to 'nb' the same time.

The main difference between the cases of Voro/Estonian and
Bokmal/Nynorsk is, that Bokmal and Nynorsk speakers would both agree if
you ask them "Do you speak Norwegian?" But Voro speakers do not agree
when asked "Do you speak Estonian?" They'd say "No, I speak Voro."
So, both Nynorsk and Bokmal are contesters to the code 'no', but Voro
has few interest to be covered by 'et'.
That shouldn't surprise, since Nynorsk and Bokmal are two different
standardizations for the same language, when Voro and Estonian are
different languages.

Marcus Buck

Lars Aronsson hett schreven:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>
>> It is nice that you oppose, there are reasons why it might be a
>> bad idea, but the ones that I know are not the ones you put
>> forward. A reason why a change would be good is that it will
>> prevent confusion.
>>
>
> Come on, nobody is confused about what language Estonian is. If
> giving a language code to a local dialect means we have to rename
> all URLs for one of the major Wikipedias (Estonian is the 34th
> biggest, Bokmål is the 13th biggest), this only means we have to
> oppose all future assignments of new ISO language codes. It is OK
> to use the standard when naming new Wikipedias, but it's not OK to
> suddenly change a well-known address.
>
> We're here to spread free knowledge. That is not helped by
> renaming all of our URLs just because of some random ISO standard
> change. The no and et Wikipedias should be kept as they are.
>
>
>


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If you consider Norwegian nynorsk to be a dialect, you have your facts
wrong. It is one of two written forms of norwegian, they have the same
legal standing.

Kjetil Lenes

Lars Aronsson skreiv:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>
>> It is nice that you oppose, there are reasons why it might be a
>> bad idea, but the ones that I know are not the ones you put
>> forward. A reason why a change would be good is that it will
>> prevent confusion.
>>
>
> Come on, nobody is confused about what language Estonian is. If
> giving a language code to a local dialect means we have to rename
> all URLs for one of the major Wikipedias (Estonian is the 34th
> biggest, Bokmål is the 13th biggest), this only means we have to
> oppose all future assignments of new ISO language codes. It is OK
> to use the standard when naming new Wikipedias, but it's not OK to
> suddenly change a well-known address.
>
> We're here to spread free knowledge. That is not helped by
> renaming all of our URLs just because of some random ISO standard
> change. The no and et Wikipedias should be kept as they are.
>
>
>

--
Kjetil Lenes

OBS! Ny epostadresse: ekkoekko@online.no


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Kjetil Lenes wrote:

> If you consider Norwegian nynorsk to be a dialect, you have your
> facts wrong. It is one of two written forms of norwegian, they
> have the same legal standing.

I'm not talking about dialects or legal standing. I'm talking
about renaming thousands of URLs, breaking incoming links from
other websites, for no good reason. Once assigned, good URLs such
as no.wikipedia.org and et.wikipedia.org should not be changed.

ISO can decide tomorrow that English should be xy and French
should be ab. We shouldn't follow such changes. It is a totally
different issue that we consult ISO when we open a new project.


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:

> Kjetil Lenes wrote:
>
> > If you consider Norwegian nynorsk to be a dialect, you have your
> > facts wrong. It is one of two written forms of norwegian, they
> > have the same legal standing.
>
> I'm not talking about dialects or legal standing. I'm talking
> about renaming thousands of URLs, breaking incoming links from
> other websites, for no good reason. Once assigned, good URLs such
> as no.wikipedia.org and et.wikipedia.org should not be changed.
>
> ISO can decide tomorrow that English should be xy and French
> should be ab. We shouldn't follow such changes. It is a totally
> different issue that we consult ISO when we open a new project.
>

I agree wholeheartedly, and I believe I brought up the same
point last time around. If a language code that we already
use is changed by ISO, then we most certainly should not
be changing it. At least not without a very VERY strong
consensus to do so.

I'm all for following ISO for language names/codes, but to
follow it blindly without a dose of common sense--and to
decide that a project should be renamed without said
project's input--is just absurd.

-Chad
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Hoi,
When we were to move away from a set of URL's from et to ekk, a generic
redirect from et to ekk will suffice because there will be a one on one
relation. The et named articles will never be used for anything else. This
is true because this is how the standard works.

For those wikis where the code has been squatted, there is no such
quarantee. It is also quite clear that these codes have been always wrong.

Where we disagree is about the definition of "good" URL's. We either have
our domain structure complying with a framework or we don't. As we DO have a
domain structure that complies to a framework, the URL's that do not comply
are "wrong". Given that the framework allows for the changes to languages,
there is nothing "wrong" with reorganising our domain structure.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/1/23 Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se>

> Kjetil Lenes wrote:
>
> > If you consider Norwegian nynorsk to be a dialect, you have your
> > facts wrong. It is one of two written forms of norwegian, they
> > have the same legal standing.
>
> I'm not talking about dialects or legal standing. I'm talking
> about renaming thousands of URLs, breaking incoming links from
> other websites, for no good reason. Once assigned, good URLs such
> as no.wikipedia.org and et.wikipedia.org should not be changed.
>
> ISO can decide tomorrow that English should be xy and French
> should be ab. We shouldn't follow such changes. It is a totally
> different issue that we consult ISO when we open a new project.
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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Lars Aronsson hett schreven:
> I'm not talking about dialects or legal standing. I'm talking
> about renaming thousands of URLs, breaking incoming links from
> other websites, for no good reason.
After a rename the old link will stay as a redirect and won't change for
a long time (at least several years) to give people time to attune to
the new code. I think, everybody agrees on that.

For some years 'no' would be a redirect just as 'nb' is a redirect to
'no' now. When in several years the new code is generally accepted and
used by everyone only some links from very old webpages will point to
'no'. 'no' could then turn into a page saying "Bokmal Wikipedia is
hosted under nb, please update your links. You will be redirected in a
few seconds." and after yet another year or so it will become a portal
linking to all Norwegian projects. It won't be an abrupt or disruptive
change.

Marcus Buck

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Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> When we were to move away from a set of URL's from et to ekk, a
> generic redirect from et to ekk will suffice because there will
> be a one on one relation. The et named articles will never be
> used for anything else. This is true because this is how the
> standard works.

The very point of the suggestion to change no.wikipedia into
nb.wikipedia is that Nynorsk extremists want to *deny* the Bokmål
majority the privilege of using the common "no" code as theirs.

The agenda of these extremists has no room for allowing redirects
from no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo to nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo,
because that would perpetuate the Bokmål oppression. In the
discussions, even the word "occupation" has been used. In their
mind, the no.* URL should force the reader to pick either the
Bokmål or Nynorsk article. That is, to stop and consider that
there are more versions of Norwegian than Bokmål. There must be
no default. If there is a default (a redirect), then today's
naming would seem OK.

As long as we recognize Nynorsk speakers some "right" to claim
that "no" is theirs (too), our naming of sites will continue to
get hijacked by such extremists. Our only escape is to refuse to
recognize the political meaning of language codes in our domain
names, and instead treat them as being just domain names that once
assigned should not be changed unless for really good reasons.
(Changing fiu-vro to the shorter vro can be a good reason, but
changing et to ekk is not.)


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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2009/1/23 Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se>

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> > When we were to move away from a set of URL's from et to ekk, a
> > generic redirect from et to ekk will suffice because there will
> > be a one on one relation. The et named articles will never be
> > used for anything else. This is true because this is how the
> > standard works.
>
> The very point of the suggestion to change no.wikipedia into
> nb.wikipedia is that Nynorsk extremists want to *deny* the Bokmål
> majority the privilege of using the common "no" code as theirs.


> The agenda of these extremists has no room for allowing redirects
> from no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo to nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo,
> because that would perpetuate the Bokmål oppression. In the
> discussions, even the word "occupation" has been used. In their
> mind, the no.* URL should force the reader to pick either the
> Bokmål or Nynorsk article. That is, to stop and consider that
> there are more versions of Norwegian than Bokmål. There must be
> no default. If there is a default (a redirect), then today's
> naming would seem OK.
>
> As long as we recognize Nynorsk speakers some "right" to claim
> that "no" is theirs (too), our naming of sites will continue to
> get hijacked by such extremists. Our only escape is to refuse to
> recognize the political meaning of language codes in our domain
> names, and instead treat them as being just domain names that once
> assigned should not be changed unless for really good reasons.
> (Changing fiu-vro to the shorter vro can be a good reason, but
> changing et to ekk is not.)
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>


This is a gross misrepresentation, and the summary is very biased. I suggest
you read the entire debate on nowp.


--
Jon Harald Søby
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
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Hoi,
Lars, you are talking about Nynorsk and I am talking about Estonian.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/1/23 Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se>

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
> > When we were to move away from a set of URL's from et to ekk, a
> > generic redirect from et to ekk will suffice because there will
> > be a one on one relation. The et named articles will never be
> > used for anything else. This is true because this is how the
> > standard works.
>
> The very point of the suggestion to change no.wikipedia into
> nb.wikipedia is that Nynorsk extremists want to *deny* the Bokmål
> majority the privilege of using the common "no" code as theirs.
>
> The agenda of these extremists has no room for allowing redirects
> from no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo to nb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo,
> because that would perpetuate the Bokmål oppression. In the
> discussions, even the word "occupation" has been used. In their
> mind, the no.* URL should force the reader to pick either the
> Bokmål or Nynorsk article. That is, to stop and consider that
> there are more versions of Norwegian than Bokmål. There must be
> no default. If there is a default (a redirect), then today's
> naming would seem OK.
>
> As long as we recognize Nynorsk speakers some "right" to claim
> that "no" is theirs (too), our naming of sites will continue to
> get hijacked by such extremists. Our only escape is to refuse to
> recognize the political meaning of language codes in our domain
> names, and instead treat them as being just domain names that once
> assigned should not be changed unless for really good reasons.
> (Changing fiu-vro to the shorter vro can be a good reason, but
> changing et to ekk is not.)
>
>
> --
> Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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>
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