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WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF
Many of you have probably noticed the considerable media coverage over the weekend about
blocking of WP content in the UK, and much more alarming, the blocking of WP editing for
most UK internet users.

The Wikimedia Foundation is concerned about this situation. We are in communication with
the responsible self-regulatory authority in the UK, the IWF. To explain our position to
the media and among our community of volunteers we will be distributing the following
press statement later tonight.

Thanks,

---
Jay Walsh
Head of Communications
WikimediaFoundation.org
+1 (415) 839 6885 x 609

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008

---

Censorship in the United Kingdom disenfranchises tens of thousands of Wikipedia editors

Wikimedia Foundation opposes action by internet watchdog group to blacklist encyclopedia
article

San Francisco CA, December 7, 2008: As of December 6, 2008, most Internet users in the
United Kingdom no longer have full access to Wikipedia. Due to censorship by the UK
self-regulatory agency the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF), most UK residents can no
longer edit the volunteer-written encyclopedia, nor can they access an article in it
describing a 32-year-old album by German rock group the Scorpions. Wikipedia visitors in
the UK have also reported performance issues accessing the site.

The IWF has confirmed to the Wikimedia Foundation that it has added Wikipedia to its
blacklist, which also had the unintended consequence of rendering UK-based internet users
unable to edit the encyclopedia, and possibly harming the site's performance inside the UK.

The IWF says its blacklist is used, on a voluntary basis, by 95% of UK-based residential
Internet Service Providers. A statement on the IWF website says it added the Wikipedia
article to the blacklist after the article was reported by a user, and an IWF assessment
found it to be “potentially illegal.”

“We have no reason to believe the article, or the image contained in the article, has been
held to be illegal in any jurisdiction anywhere in the world,” said the Wikimedia
Foundation's General Counsel, Mike Godwin. “We believe it's worth noting that the image is
currently visible on Amazon, where the album can be freely purchased by UK residents. It
is available on thousands of websites that are accessible to the UK public.”

“The IWF didn't just block the image; it blocked access to the article itself, which
discusses the image in a neutral, encyclopedic fashion,” said Sue Gardner, Executive
Director of the Wikimedia Foundation. “The IWF says its goal is to protect UK citizens,
but I can't see how this action helps to achieve that – and meanwhile, it deprives UK
internet users of the ability to access information which should be freely available to
everyone. I urge the IWF to remove Wikipedia from its blacklist.”

The Wikimedia Foundation is proud of the work done by its volunteer editors, who have
created an encyclopedia which external studies repeatedly validate as equal or better in
quality compared with conventional encyclopedias. Wikipedia's editors take care to ensure
the quality of the content of the encyclopedia, and to safeguard the core community values
of freedom, independence, and neutrality.

The Wikimedia Foundation will continue its discussions with IWF to resolve this matter.

Q/A can be found here:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008QA


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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh <jwalsh@wikimedia.org>:


> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008


http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html

How the Great Firewall of Britain works


- d.

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
A link

http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer

Ant

Jay A. Walsh wrote:
> Many of you have probably noticed the considerable media coverage over the weekend about
> blocking of WP content in the UK, and much more alarming, the blocking of WP editing for
> most UK internet users.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation is concerned about this situation. We are in communication with
> the responsible self-regulatory authority in the UK, the IWF. To explain our position to
> the media and among our community of volunteers we will be distributing the following
> press statement later tonight.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ---
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> +1 (415) 839 6885 x 609
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
>
> ---
>
> Censorship in the United Kingdom disenfranchises tens of thousands of Wikipedia editors
>
> Wikimedia Foundation opposes action by internet watchdog group to blacklist encyclopedia
> article
>
> San Francisco CA, December 7, 2008: As of December 6, 2008, most Internet users in the
> United Kingdom no longer have full access to Wikipedia. Due to censorship by the UK
> self-regulatory agency the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF), most UK residents can no
> longer edit the volunteer-written encyclopedia, nor can they access an article in it
> describing a 32-year-old album by German rock group the Scorpions. Wikipedia visitors in
> the UK have also reported performance issues accessing the site.
>
> The IWF has confirmed to the Wikimedia Foundation that it has added Wikipedia to its
> blacklist, which also had the unintended consequence of rendering UK-based internet users
> unable to edit the encyclopedia, and possibly harming the site's performance inside the UK.
>
> The IWF says its blacklist is used, on a voluntary basis, by 95% of UK-based residential
> Internet Service Providers. A statement on the IWF website says it added the Wikipedia
> article to the blacklist after the article was reported by a user, and an IWF assessment
> found it to be “potentially illegal.”
>
> “We have no reason to believe the article, or the image contained in the article, has been
> held to be illegal in any jurisdiction anywhere in the world,” said the Wikimedia
> Foundation's General Counsel, Mike Godwin. “We believe it's worth noting that the image is
> currently visible on Amazon, where the album can be freely purchased by UK residents. It
> is available on thousands of websites that are accessible to the UK public.”
>
> “The IWF didn't just block the image; it blocked access to the article itself, which
> discusses the image in a neutral, encyclopedic fashion,” said Sue Gardner, Executive
> Director of the Wikimedia Foundation. “The IWF says its goal is to protect UK citizens,
> but I can't see how this action helps to achieve that – and meanwhile, it deprives UK
> internet users of the ability to access information which should be freely available to
> everyone. I urge the IWF to remove Wikipedia from its blacklist.”
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation is proud of the work done by its volunteer editors, who have
> created an encyclopedia which external studies repeatedly validate as equal or better in
> quality compared with conventional encyclopedias. Wikipedia's editors take care to ensure
> the quality of the content of the encyclopedia, and to safeguard the core community values
> of freedom, independence, and neutrality.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation will continue its discussions with IWF to resolve this matter.
>
> Q/A can be found here:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008QA
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
> A link
>
> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>
> Ant
>

More up to date:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles

If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
million views of that article today.
--
geni

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
geni wrote:
> 2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
>> A link
>>
>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>>
>> Ant
>>
>
> More up to date:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles
>
> If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
> million views of that article today.

A sudden thought... and what if the whole story had been entirely made
up ? As in "Amazon staff member made the complain to the UK foundation
in hope it would give a kick to the album sale ?"

Right, I am dreaming, but I like the "what ifs" :-)

I would be curious to know sales for that album in dec 08 compared to
other months. My brother also was a big fan of scorpions (and I must
confess it was the least bad of all heavy metal groups he was listening
to), and I regret we dumped all these old albums. It feels like it could
become a collector...



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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> geni wrote:
>> 2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
>>> A link
>>>
>>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>>>
>>> Ant
>>>
>>
>> More up to date:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles
>>
>> If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
>> million views of that article today.
>
> A sudden thought... and what if the whole story had been entirely made
> up ? As in "Amazon staff member made the complain to the UK foundation
> in hope it would give a kick to the album sale ?"
>
> Right, I am dreaming, but I like the "what ifs" :-)
>

Mhm....that would be a risky move for whomever profits from increased
sales of the album...although coverage is surprisingly pro-Wikipedia
at the moment, (allegations of) child pornography do not make for very
good PR in general.

I think the consensus on this list (or wikimediauk-l?) was that the
album cover is rather tasteless and objectionable, albeit not illegal.
I would guess that the public does not view the image much more
favorably than the participants of this list, so the band will now
forever have this "nude child on cover"-story attached to it. As said,
not really good PR in the long term although surely profits might go
up at the moment. Though, incidentally, is it not more likely that
people would only go to the shops (physical or virtual ones) to see
the cover without actually buying the album itself? I'm not sure
whether many people think that just because the album has a
controversial cover, they should buy it (as opposed to "having a look
at it in-store")

Michael




--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler@gmail.com

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statementfrom the WMF [ In reply to ]
Thanks to the Foundation for its standing against this censorship. I hope
and expect that this position will be upheld.

Regards
Sir48 (Thyge)
---who resents a record with a cover like that has ever been released.

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]Pa vegne af Florence
Devouard
Sendt: 8. december 2008 12:42
Til: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Emne: Re: [Foundation-l] WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statementfrom
the WMF


geni wrote:
> 2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
>> A link
>>
>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>>
>> Ant
>>
>
> More up to date:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles
>
> If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
> million views of that article today.

A sudden thought... and what if the whole story had been entirely made
up ? As in "Amazon staff member made the complain to the UK foundation
in hope it would give a kick to the album sale ?"

Right, I am dreaming, but I like the "what ifs" :-)

I would be curious to know sales for that album in dec 08 compared to
other months. My brother also was a big fan of scorpions (and I must
confess it was the least bad of all heavy metal groups he was listening
to), and I regret we dumped all these old albums. It feels like it could
become a collector...



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8:17 AM


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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
2008/12/8 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com>:
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> geni wrote:
>>> 2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
>>>> A link
>>>>
>>>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>>>>
>>>> Ant
>>>>
>>>
>>> More up to date:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles
>>>
>>> If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
>>> million views of that article today.
>>
>> A sudden thought... and what if the whole story had been entirely made
>> up ? As in "Amazon staff member made the complain to the UK foundation
>> in hope it would give a kick to the album sale ?"
>>
>> Right, I am dreaming, but I like the "what ifs" :-)
>>
>
> Mhm....that would be a risky move for whomever profits from increased
> sales of the album...although coverage is surprisingly pro-Wikipedia
> at the moment, (allegations of) child pornography do not make for very
> good PR in general.
>
> I think the consensus on this list (or wikimediauk-l?) was that the
> album cover is rather tasteless and objectionable, albeit not illegal.
> I would guess that the public does not view the image much more
> favorably than the participants of this list, so the band will now
> forever have this "nude child on cover"-story attached to it. As said,
> not really good PR in the long term although surely profits might go
> up at the moment. Though, incidentally, is it not more likely that
> people would only go to the shops (physical or virtual ones) to see
> the cover without actually buying the album itself? I'm not sure
> whether many people think that just because the album has a
> controversial cover, they should buy it (as opposed to "having a look
> at it in-store")
>

Yes.. I rather expect that the claim to block this page was sent to
IWF by someone who requested to delete this picture on Wikipedia and
was unhappy with the deletion request result.


--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.ptchem.lodz.pl/en/TomaszGanicz.html

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
> geni wrote:
>> 2008/12/8 Florence Devouard <Anthere9@yahoo.com>:
>>> A link
>>>
>>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200812/Virgin_Killer
>>>
>>> Ant
>>>
>>
>> More up to date:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_articles
>>
>> If the current rate continued we would be looking at close on half a
>> million views of that article today.
>
> A sudden thought... and what if the whole story had been entirely made
> up ? As in "Amazon staff member made the complain to the UK foundation
> in hope it would give a kick to the album sale ?"
>
> Right, I am dreaming, but I like the "what ifs" :-)
>
> I would be curious to know sales for that album in dec 08 compared to
> other months. My brother also was a big fan of scorpions (and I must
> confess it was the least bad of all heavy metal groups he was listening
> to), and I regret we dumped all these old albums. It feels like it could
> become a collector...

No single item will have a significant effect on Amazon sales and the
Scorpions appear to have long since dissowned the cover.

There is also the factor that it is unlikely that anyone could be sure
that we would be able to figure out that the IWF was invovled.

--
geni

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
2008/12/8 Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com>:

> Mhm....that would be a risky move for whomever profits from increased
> sales of the album...although coverage is surprisingly pro-Wikipedia
> at the moment, (allegations of) child pornography do not make for very
> good PR in general.
>

Yes.. I rather expect that the claim to block this page was sent to
IWF by someone who requested to delete this picture on Wikipedia and
was unhappy with the negative deletion request result.


--
Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
http://www.ptchem.lodz.pl/en/TomaszGanicz.html

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
David Gerard wrote:
> 2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh:
>
>
>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
>
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html
>
> How the Great Firewall of Britain works
>
> - d.

Interesting, which urls are they blocking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer?bypass_censorship
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&iwf=please_dont_censor_me
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256646302
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IDW_censors_wikipedia&action=submit&preload=Virgin_Killer

Blocking each and every way to access one article on MediaWiki is a bit
hard. Unless thay are actually reading the page content and so risk
blocking any page containing the words 'Virgin Killer'.


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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote:

> David Gerard wrote:
> > 2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh:
> >
> >
> >>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
> >
> >
> > http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html
> >
> > How the Great Firewall of Britain works
> >
> > - d.
>
> Interesting, which urls are they blocking?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer?bypass_censorship
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&iwf=please_dont_censor_me
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256646302
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IDW_censors_wikipedia&action=submit&preload=Virgin_Killer
>
> Blocking each and every way to access one article on MediaWiki is a bit
> hard. Unless thay are actually reading the page content and so risk
> blocking any page containing the words 'Virgin Killer'.


Any page containing the url of the image would make more sense.
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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> David Gerard wrote:
>> > 2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html
>> >
>> > How the Great Firewall of Britain works
>> >
>> > - d.
>>
>> Interesting, which urls are they blocking?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer?bypass_censorship
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&iwf=please_dont_censor_me
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256646302
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IDW_censors_wikipedia&action=submit&preload=Virgin_Killer
>>
>> Blocking each and every way to access one article on MediaWiki is a bit
>> hard. Unless thay are actually reading the page content and so risk
>> blocking any page containing the words 'Virgin Killer'.
>
>
> Any page containing the url of the image would make more sense.
>
> Are they blocking
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&oldid=256621147 ?
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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David Gerard wrote:
>>> > 2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html
>>> >
>>> > How the Great Firewall of Britain works
>>> >
>>> > - d.
>>>
>>> Interesting, which urls are they blocking?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer?bypass_censorship
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&iwf=please_dont_censor_me
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256646302
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IDW_censors_wikipedia&action=submit&preload=Virgin_Killer
>>>
>>> Blocking each and every way to access one article on MediaWiki is a bit
>>> hard. Unless thay are actually reading the page content and so risk
>>> blocking any page containing the words 'Virgin Killer'.
>>
>>
>> Any page containing the url of the image would make more sense.
>>
>> Are they blocking
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&oldid=256621147 ?
>

I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256621147 would be a
better test.
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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
Anthony wrote:
>>> Any page containing the url of the image would make more sense.
>>>
>>> Are they blocking
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&oldid=256621147 ?
>>
>
> I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256621147 would be a
It was edited since I send my previous msg :P

The real test would be checking
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/Virgin_Killer.jpg

It's at a different ip and domain, so I wouldn't be too surprised to
find that they're blocking the article (talking about the image issue)
and not the image itself which they are supposedly trying to block.


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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote
> The real test would be checking
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/Virgin_Killer.jpg
>
> It's at a different ip and domain, so I wouldn't be too surprised to
> find that they're blocking the article (talking about the image issue)
> and not the image itself which they are supposedly trying to block.

This has been pointed out on the lists and the wiki.
They are not blocking the image itself. They are not even intercepting
the upload.wikimedia.org traffic.

As far as we are aware are blocking only two URL, the article and the
image description pages. The matches appear to be exact matches, all
of the above proposed evasions work. The image shows fine when placed
in other articles.

Of course, we can't know what else is being done: Other pages could be
blocked, perhaps logs of everything you view are being sold to the
highest bidder? Can't know. We just know that ISPs are running
servers which pretend to be Wikimedia's IP, which capture the traffic
and produce fake error messages for at least two URLs. That may be all
we'll ever know.

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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anthony wrote:
> >>> Any page containing the url of the image would make more sense.
> >>>
> >>> Are they blocking
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Killer&oldid=256621147?
> >>
> >
> > I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=256621147 would be a
> It was edited since I send my previous msg :P
>

My point was that the URL I gave doesn't have the image in it.

But apparently they aren't blocking those other URLs anyway. I
misunderstood what you were saying in your message.
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Re: WP edit/access blocking in the UK - statement from the WMF [ In reply to ]
Platonides wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>> 2008/12/8 Jay A. Walsh:
>>
>>
>>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Censorship_of_WP_in_the_UK_Dec_2008
>>
>> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/07/how-the-great-firewa.html
>>
>> How the Great Firewall of Britain works
>>
>> - d.
>
> Interesting, which urls are they blocking?

AFAWK, an exact match in page request for
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer>, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Virgin_Killer.jpg> and nothing else.
As been said, any variation to that is unblocked, including when the
above image is part of any other articles.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
- Heinrich Heine