Mailing List Archive: 80% of our projects are failing

80% of our projects are failing

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 12:43 PM

Post #1 of 91 (2111 views)

Hoi,
Regularly I hear people say that Wikipedia is failing. When you then listen,
there are all kinds of good reasons why Wikipedia is failing. Quality is
low, issues with living persons, pov pushers a long litany of woes are all
grounds to predict the imminent demise of Wikipedia. While all these issues
may be grounds for concern, it is hardly indicative of failure. To me they
are indicative of a wildly successful project coping with everything that is
a consequence of success. I am of the opinion that most of our projects
would love to have the same problems, the same issues, the same success as
the few project that do well.

For most of our projects a lack of content, a lack of community ensure that
the project is irrelevant. No growth, no interest is more killing then all
the woes that our big projects suffer from. At Wikimania 2008 a presentation
was given by developers from UNICEF who had done proper usability studies.
They found that 100% of their newbie testsubjects were not able to create a
new article.

This is serious. This explains why so many of our projects fail. We do not
invite collaboration because people do not know how to. They do not know how
to EVEN when they are explicitly invited to create a new article as they
were in this research.

At the Wikimedia Conference Nederland, Jan-Bart de Vreede indicated in his
speech that Kennisnet is interested in implementing the UNICEF extensions.
These extensions are now localisable in any language at Betawiki. At
ExtensionTesting, all the extensions have been tested against stable
releases. Bugs were identified and some bugs were fixed. As a consequence it
is likely that some more MediaWiki installations will benefit from research.

It seems obvious to people who deal with small projects that usability is
one of the big issue when it comes to the moribunt status of our small
projects. The question I put to you, what are we going to do to first agree
that this is an issue and then to deal with this issue. Do we care that 80%
of our projects are failing?
Thanks,
GerardM
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 1:01 PM

Post #2 of 91 (2065 views)

> At Wikimania 2008 a presentation
> was given by developers from UNICEF who had done proper usability studies.
> They found that 100% of their newbie testsubjects were not able to create a
> new article.

I wasn't there, so didn't see the presentation. Did they detail the
problems these test subjects had? The first stage in fixing any
problem is to identify precisely what the problem is.

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 1:07 PM

Post #3 of 91 (2047 views)

Hoi,
The presentation is online. I blogged about this extension in the past..

http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/search/label/Usability

Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>

> > At Wikimania 2008 a presentation
> > was given by developers from UNICEF who had done proper usability
> studies.
> > They found that 100% of their newbie testsubjects were not able to create
> a
> > new article.
>
> I wasn't there, so didn't see the presentation. Did they detail the
> problems these test subjects had? The first stage in fixing any
> problem is to identify precisely what the problem is.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 1:11 PM

Post #4 of 91 (2054 views)

Do we care that 80%
> of our projects are failing?
> Thanks,
> GerardM

No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers. Let them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and commons.

CM

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 1:15 PM

Post #5 of 91 (2050 views)

Hoi,
Small projects using MediaWiki for any of the languages that you indicate
are relevant are failing for exactly the same reason.
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>

>
> Do we care that 80%
> > of our projects are failing?
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
>
> No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks
> (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers. Let
> them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and
> commons.
>
> CM
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See the most popular videos on the web
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

nemowiki at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 1:32 PM

Post #6 of 91 (2047 views)

Gerard Meijssen, 30/11/2008 21:43:
> {{cn|80%}}
> of our projects are failing?

Nemo

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

effeietsanders at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:04 PM

Post #7 of 91 (2063 views)

Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about our
little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)

Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work of
human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are living
in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little material
available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language! Even if
it only contains 1000 articles, you can already learn a lot from it. You can
improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
western world. It won't do miracles of course, but every tiny little bit
helps.

And now imagine that this goes for all languages. And not only
encyclopediae, but also learning books, dictionaries and perhaps one day
even other collections. Wikipedia *does* make a difference. (and I'd almost
add: donate now ;-) )

Best regards,

Lodewijk

2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>

>
> Do we care that 80%
> > of our projects are failing?
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
>
> No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks
> (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers. Let
> them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and
> commons.
>
> CM
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See the most popular videos on the web
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

mohamed.m.k at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:14 PM

Post #8 of 91 (2068 views)

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Christiano Moreschi <
moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Do we care that 80%
> > of our projects are failing?
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
>
> No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks
> (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers. Let
> them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and
> commons.
>
>
I fail to see the purpose of this response except "rm -rf
-exclude:en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and commons" which //isn't going to
happen//.

I care and I think we should have a usability expert. but I wouldn't call it
failure (as i understand failure means something that used to work and now
deteriorates or stops), it is more of a project that didn't start yet.

--
--alnokta
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

putevod at mccme

Nov 30, 2008, 2:20 PM

Post #9 of 91 (2059 views)

Actually, the quality is a serious problem of all projects including
en.wp. I thought it is obvious for everybody, but if not, I can provide
more detail.

Cheers
Yaroslav

> Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
> our
> little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
> them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:24 PM

Post #10 of 91 (2056 views)

No it doesn't. The greatest tool for the education of those poor sods in the 3rd world is the English Wikipedia, plus Spanish, French, etc. But mostly en. Here's why.

1. It's the biggest. It's the best. You learn the most.
2. You get to practice reading English at the same time. English is THE global language and will become even more so, mostly because of the economic dominance of the US and the fact that it's so easy to learn. You can learn to speak understandable English in a month: even if/when China takes over economically, we'll still do business in English. I know hundreds of people who can speak English as a second language: I know not one non-Chinese who speaks fluent Mandarin. Mr Botswana will do far better economically from en than he will from botswanian wiki.
3. It is not run by monomaniacal ethnic zealots, who find smaller wikis laughably easy to take over. Even ru wiki has a problem with this, I've heard. On en, people like me spend hours making sure that history is not distorted by fanatics and that our narratives offer an accurate, rational fair picture. There's little food for fundamentalists. God knows what crap you find on smaller wikis with less editorial oversight. In the wake of the terrorist attacks in Bombay, this seems particularly relevant.

Conclusion: let them all fail, bar the big ones.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:04:43 +0100
> From: effeietsanders@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
>
> Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about our
> little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
> them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
>
> Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work of
> human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are living
> in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little material
> available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language! Even if
> it only contains 1000 articles, you can already learn a lot from it. You can
> improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> western world. It won't do miracles of course, but every tiny little bit
> helps.
>
> And now imagine that this goes for all languages. And not only
> encyclopediae, but also learning books, dictionaries and perhaps one day
> even other collections. Wikipedia *does* make a difference. (and I'd almost
> add: donate now ;-) )
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lodewijk
>
> 2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>
>
> >
> > Do we care that 80%
> > > of our projects are failing?
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> >
> > No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks
> > (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> > exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers. Let
> > them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and
> > commons.
> >
> > CM
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > See the most popular videos on the web
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:25 PM

Post #11 of 91 (2062 views)

Hoi,
I wish for 80% of our projects to have the same problems as our bigger
projects. It would be cool that we could compare the quality issues of the
Xhosa Wikipedia or any of the bottom 80%. It takes content in order to talk
about quality. The content is not there and consequently quality is not an
issue.
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>

> Actually, the quality is a serious problem of all projects including
> en.wp. I thought it is obvious for everybody, but if not, I can provide
> more detail.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> > Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> > definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
> > our
> > little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
> > them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:26 PM

Post #12 of 91 (2079 views)

Huh? Could you please provide some evidence for this striking claim that the French and German Wikipedias are failing? Let me be clear: I don't think anybody reads the English wikibooks either!

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:15:46 +0100
> From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
>
> Hoi,
> Small projects using MediaWiki for any of the languages that you indicate
> are relevant are failing for exactly the same reason.
> Thanks,
> GerardM

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

finnrindwiki at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:28 PM

Post #13 of 91 (2057 views)

We should indeed care. One thing is that we should do whatever we can to
help new projects grow to a selfsustainable size in terms of content and
contributors. The second is that we must accept that a lot of new projects
will fail, but that this is no reason not to go ahead with even more new
projects. If 1 out of 10 new projects survive, then the time spent on the 9
failed projects was not waisted. That one project in some "small language"
helps fullfilling the vision of the Foundation as stated on those
fundraisingpages I'm just now translating into the small language of
Norwegian.

Thanks to Lodewijk for a posting here that actually gave me some inspiration
to continue translating ;)

Finn Rindahl

2008/11/30 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>

> Hoi,
> I wish for 80% of our projects to have the same problems as our bigger
> projects. It would be cool that we could compare the quality issues of the
> Xhosa Wikipedia or any of the bottom 80%. It takes content in order to talk
> about quality. The content is not there and consequently quality is not an
> issue.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2008/11/30 Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>
>
> > Actually, the quality is a serious problem of all projects including
> > en.wp. I thought it is obvious for everybody, but if not, I can provide
> > more detail.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > > Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> > > definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
> > > our
> > > little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and
> support
> > > them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:31 PM

Post #14 of 91 (2062 views)

Hoi,
You added some pearl of wisdom at the end. It is obviously wasted for the
people like me who do not understand Latin. In a similar way, if these other
people do not read and understand English Spanish French etc, they are not
informed with our pearls of wisdom..
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>

>
> No it doesn't. The greatest tool for the education of those poor sods in
> the 3rd world is the English Wikipedia, plus Spanish, French, etc. But
> mostly en. Here's why.
>
> 1. It's the biggest. It's the best. You learn the most.
> 2. You get to practice reading English at the same time. English is THE
> global language and will become even more so, mostly because of the economic
> dominance of the US and the fact that it's so easy to learn. You can learn
> to speak understandable English in a month: even if/when China takes over
> economically, we'll still do business in English. I know hundreds of people
> who can speak English as a second language: I know not one non-Chinese who
> speaks fluent Mandarin. Mr Botswana will do far better economically from en
> than he will from botswanian wiki.
> 3. It is not run by monomaniacal ethnic zealots, who find smaller wikis
> laughably easy to take over. Even ru wiki has a problem with this, I've
> heard. On en, people like me spend hours making sure that history is not
> distorted by fanatics and that our narratives offer an accurate, rational
> fair picture. There's little food for fundamentalists. God knows what crap
> you find on smaller wikis with less editorial oversight. In the wake of the
> terrorist attacks in Bombay, this seems particularly relevant.
>
> Conclusion: let them all fail, bar the big ones.
>
> CM
>
> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:04:43 +0100
> > From: effeietsanders@gmail.com
> > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> >
> > Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> > definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
> our
> > little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
> > them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
> >
> > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work
> of
> > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are
> living
> > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little
> material
> > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language! Even
> if
> > it only contains 1000 articles, you can already learn a lot from it. You
> can
> > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> > western world. It won't do miracles of course, but every tiny little bit
> > helps.
> >
> > And now imagine that this goes for all languages. And not only
> > encyclopediae, but also learning books, dictionaries and perhaps one day
> > even other collections. Wikipedia *does* make a difference. (and I'd
> almost
> > add: donate now ;-) )
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > 2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>
> >
> > >
> > > Do we care that 80%
> > > > of our projects are failing?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > >
> > > No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian
> wikibooks
> > > (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> > > exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any
> readers. Let
> > > them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt
> and
> > > commons.
> > >
> > > CM
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > See the most popular videos on the web
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See the most popular videos on the web
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:36 PM

Post #15 of 91 (2081 views)

Right, you act as if smaller wikis were tremendous vessels of potential just waiting to be filled with pearls of wisdom, when experience suggests they are landfill sites. If Google develop something that could automatically translate every article on en into perfect Mongolian/Latvian/Zulu, your comment would make perfect sense. As it is it makes none.

And I suggest you google my sig. The irony is impressive.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:31:09 +0100
> From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
>
> Hoi,
> You added some pearl of wisdom at the end. It is obviously wasted for the
> people like me who do not understand Latin. In a similar way, if these other
> people do not read and understand English Spanish French etc, they are not
> informed with our pearls of wisdom..
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>
>
> >
> > No it doesn't. The greatest tool for the education of those poor sods in
> > the 3rd world is the English Wikipedia, plus Spanish, French, etc. But
> > mostly en. Here's why.
> >
> > 1. It's the biggest. It's the best. You learn the most.
> > 2. You get to practice reading English at the same time. English is THE
> > global language and will become even more so, mostly because of the economic
> > dominance of the US and the fact that it's so easy to learn. You can learn
> > to speak understandable English in a month: even if/when China takes over
> > economically, we'll still do business in English. I know hundreds of people
> > who can speak English as a second language: I know not one non-Chinese who
> > speaks fluent Mandarin. Mr Botswana will do far better economically from en
> > than he will from botswanian wiki.
> > 3. It is not run by monomaniacal ethnic zealots, who find smaller wikis
> > laughably easy to take over. Even ru wiki has a problem with this, I've
> > heard. On en, people like me spend hours making sure that history is not
> > distorted by fanatics and that our narratives offer an accurate, rational
> > fair picture. There's little food for fundamentalists. God knows what crap
> > you find on smaller wikis with less editorial oversight. In the wake of the
> > terrorist attacks in Bombay, this seems particularly relevant.
> >
> > Conclusion: let them all fail, bar the big ones.
> >
> > CM
> >
> > Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:04:43 +0100
> > > From: effeietsanders@gmail.com
> > > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> > >
> > > Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
> > > definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
> > our
> > > little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
> > > them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
> > >
> > > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work
> > of
> > > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> > > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> > > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are
> > living
> > > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little
> > material
> > > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language! Even
> > if
> > > it only contains 1000 articles, you can already learn a lot from it. You
> > can
> > > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> > > western world. It won't do miracles of course, but every tiny little bit
> > > helps.
> > >
> > > And now imagine that this goes for all languages. And not only
> > > encyclopediae, but also learning books, dictionaries and perhaps one day
> > > even other collections. Wikipedia *does* make a difference. (and I'd
> > almost
> > > add: donate now ;-) )
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Lodewijk
> > >
> > > 2008/11/30 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Do we care that 80%
> > > > > of our projects are failing?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian
> > wikibooks
> > > > (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> > > > exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any
> > readers. Let
> > > > them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt
> > and
> > > > commons.
> > > >
> > > > CM
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > See the most popular videos on the web
> > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > See the most popular videos on the web
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> > _______________________________________________
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> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:40 PM

Post #16 of 91 (2058 views)

Hoi,
Given that UNICEF has done proper usability studies. Given that they have
measured the success of the changes they made. We can be aware of the
lessons that were learned in this way. We can adopt the changes and learn
how it affects *our *smaller projects. When we cooperate with UNICEF, when
we apply the lessons learned we can expect to do better.

When 80% are considered to be a failure, when we identify a major reason
why, when we apply the lessons learned and these projects still fail, it is
not because of something that we could have done. I am raising awareness of
the issues we know we have with usability. I am involved in getting these
extensions tested so that people can safely adopt them. I urge the WMF to
allow projects to have the benefit of improved usability.

When projects choose to improve usability, we will get metrics on how this
makes a difference. We may learn what approaches work in which cultures and
not in others. It would be so cool if we could discuss these things because
we have this experience.
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k@gmail.com>

> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Christiano Moreschi <
> moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Do we care that 80%
> > > of our projects are failing?
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> >
> > No. Why should we? Nobody actually reads shit like the albanian wikibooks
> > (doesn't matter if that doesn't exist, you get my point). Such projects
> > exist purely the monomaniacal benefit of the editor(s), not any readers.
> Let
> > them all fail, with the exception of Wikipedias en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt
> and
> > commons.
> >
> >
> I fail to see the purpose of this response except "rm -rf
> -exclude:en,fr,de,ru,etc + wikt and commons" which //isn't going to
> happen//.
>
> I care and I think we should have a usability expert. but I wouldn't call
> it
> failure (as i understand failure means something that used to work and now
> deteriorates or stops), it is more of a project that didn't start yet.
>
> --
> --alnokta
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

mrzmanwiki at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:45 PM

Post #17 of 91 (2057 views)

I don't see why it matters. As long as there's /some/ content, there's
content that can be poor quality. If anything, a wiki with virtually no
community is more susceptible to quality problems. If someone
intentionally inserts misinformation or libel into an article on the
English Wikipedia, it will likely be reverted in minutes, if not
seconds. If someone does that on a small wiki with no active users, how
long is it going to take to be removed? It might not show up in the top
of Google search results, but its still a quality problem.

--
Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> I wish for 80% of our projects to have the same problems as our bigger
> projects. It would be cool that we could compare the quality issues of the
> Xhosa Wikipedia or any of the bottom 80%. It takes content in order to talk
> about quality. The content is not there and consequently quality is not an
> issue.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2008/11/30 Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>
>
>> Actually, the quality is a serious problem of all projects including
>> en.wp. I thought it is obvious for everybody, but if not, I can provide
>> more detail.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
>>> Please, speak for yourself :) I *do* care, and if there is an easy and
>>> definite solution, I'd love to embrace it. I think we should care about
>>> our
>>> little siblings, about the smaller languages as we call them, and support
>>> them if possible. I can only hope you were being extremely ironic :)
>>

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

geniice at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:48 PM

Post #18 of 91 (2062 views)

2008/11/30 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>:
> Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work of
> human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are living
> in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little material
> available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language!

English is an official language of Botswana. Quite a lot of African
countries move to English or French for education above a certain
level.

>Even if
> it only contains 1000 articles,

~102 articles currently.

> you can already learn a lot from it. You can
> improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> western world.

What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for
that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are
large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that
area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly
questionable if we would even want to.

This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean
that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries
may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them
becoming POV forks.

--
geni

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

gerard.meijssen at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 2:58 PM

Post #19 of 91 (2057 views)

Hoi,
EMC2 is a company who sells storage solutions to big companies. I was at a
presentation of their documentation manager. He informed his audience that
the people who buy their products invariably state that they prefer the
English documentation. They always get the translations as well. The benefit
to EMC2 is that they sell more products. The translation of their
documentation adds pennies to the pound in costs, costs that are easily
offset by the increased sales.

The point is that people understand things better when they are addressed in
their own language EVEN when they can read the language that is foreign to
them.
Thanks,
GerardM

2008/11/30 geni <geniice@gmail.com>

> 2008/11/30 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>:
> > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work
> of
> > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are
> living
> > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little
> material
> > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language!
>
> English is an official language of Botswana. Quite a lot of African
> countries move to English or French for education above a certain
> level.
>
> >Even if
> > it only contains 1000 articles,
>
> ~102 articles currently.
>
> > you can already learn a lot from it. You can
> > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> > western world.
>
> What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for
> that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are
> large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that
> area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly
> questionable if we would even want to.
>
> This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean
> that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries
> may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them
> becoming POV forks.
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 3:01 PM

Post #20 of 91 (2048 views)

Have you forgotten that these are WIKIS we are talking about? It's not just a matter of translation: the technology isn't there to do it automatically and we don't have the manpower do it manually. Even if the technology were there, it's a WIKI. Unlike your friend's translations, our content can drastically deteriorate and become useless overnight if nobody's watching it.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:58:54 +0100
> From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
>
> Hoi,
> EMC2 is a company who sells storage solutions to big companies. I was at a
> presentation of their documentation manager. He informed his audience that
> the people who buy their products invariably state that they prefer the
> English documentation. They always get the translations as well. The benefit
> to EMC2 is that they sell more products. The translation of their
> documentation adds pennies to the pound in costs, costs that are easily
> offset by the increased sales.
>
> The point is that people understand things better when they are addressed in
> their own language EVEN when they can read the language that is foreign to
> them.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2008/11/30 geni <geniice@gmail.com>
>
> > 2008/11/30 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>:
> > > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work
> > of
> > > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already
> > > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better
> > > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are
> > living
> > > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little
> > material
> > > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language!
> >
> > English is an official language of Botswana. Quite a lot of African
> > countries move to English or French for education above a certain
> > level.
> >
> > >Even if
> > > it only contains 1000 articles,
> >
> > ~102 articles currently.
> >
> > > you can already learn a lot from it. You can
> > > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> > > western world.
> >
> > What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for
> > that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are
> > large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that
> > area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly
> > questionable if we would even want to.
> >
> > This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean
> > that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries
> > may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them
> > becoming POV forks.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > geni
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

moreschiwikiman at hotmail

Nov 30, 2008, 3:15 PM

Post #21 of 91 (2047 views)

Only if the information is not a pack of lies. Which on a smaller wiki it probably will be. And, as I pointed out 4 posts ago, it's more valuable for Mr Botswana in English anyway.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 00:07:24 +0100
From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
To: moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing

Hoi,
You did not get my point. The point is that inform ation in a native language is valuable by objective standards.
Thanks,
Gerard

2008/12/1 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>

Have you forgotten that these are WIKIS we are talking about? It's not just a matter of translation: the technology isn't there to do it automatically and we don't have the manpower do it manually. Even if the technology were there, it's a WIKI. Unlike your friend's translations, our content can drastically deteriorate and become useless overnight if nobody's watching it.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:58:54 +0100

> From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com

> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org

> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing

>

> Hoi,

> EMC2 is a company who sells storage solutions to big companies. I was at a

> presentation of their documentation manager. He informed his audience that

> the people who buy their products invariably state that they prefer the

> English documentation. They always get the translations as well. The benefit

> to EMC2 is that they sell more products. The translation of their

> documentation adds pennies to the pound in costs, costs that are easily

> offset by the increased sales.

>

> The point is that people understand things better when they are addressed in

> their own language EVEN when they can read the language that is foreign to

> them.

> Thanks,

> GerardM

>

> 2008/11/30 geni <geniice@gmail.com>

>

> > 2008/11/30 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>:

> > > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented work

> > of

> > > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we already

> > > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is better

> > > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are

> > living

> > > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little

> > material

> > > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language!

> >

> > English is an official language of Botswana. Quite a lot of African

> > countries move to English or French for education above a certain

> > level.

> >

> > >Even if

> > > it only contains 1000 articles,

> >

> > ~102 articles currently.

> >

> > > you can already learn a lot from it. You can

> > > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the

> > > western world.

> >

> > What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for

> > that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are

> > large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that

> > area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly

> > questionable if we would even want to.

> >

> > This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean

> > that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries

> > may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them

> > becoming POV forks.

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > geni

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > foundation-l mailing list

> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org

> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

> >

> _______________________________________________

> foundation-l mailing list

> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

jhsoby at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 3:45 PM

Post #22 of 91 (2056 views)

Sorry, but to me this just sounds like FUD. Do you have any information to
back up your claims about small wikis deteriorating? Don't forget, these are
WIKIS we are talking about. In WIKIS everyone can change the content, and
even though people may add bad content, they may also add good content (and
believe it or not, there is functionality that makes people able to remove
bad edits!). You're applying the problems of the large wikis to the smaller
ones, which is not really appropriate, because they are on completely
different levels. Sure, the smaller wikis have problems as well, but they
are very different from the problems enwiki and dewiki are having.

2008/12/1 Christiano Moreschi <moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk>

>
> Have you forgotten that these are WIKIS we are talking about? It's not just
> a matter of translation: the technology isn't there to do it automatically
> and we don't have the manpower do it manually. Even if the technology were
> there, it's a WIKI. Unlike your friend's translations, our content can
> drastically deteriorate and become useless overnight if nobody's watching
> it.
>
> CM
>
> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:58:54 +0100
> > From: gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> >
> > Hoi,
> > EMC2 is a company who sells storage solutions to big companies. I was at
> a
> > presentation of their documentation manager. He informed his audience
> that
> > the people who buy their products invariably state that they prefer the
> > English documentation. They always get the translations as well. The
> benefit
> > to EMC2 is that they sell more products. The translation of their
> > documentation adds pennies to the pound in costs, costs that are easily
> > offset by the increased sales.
> >
> > The point is that people understand things better when they are addressed
> in
> > their own language EVEN when they can read the language that is foreign
> to
> > them.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > 2008/11/30 geni <geniice@gmail.com>
> >
> > > 2008/11/30 effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>:
> > > > Because bear in mind, especially in those languages, a complemented
> work
> > > of
> > > > human knowledge really adds something. In the large languages, we
> already
> > > > had encyclopediae and dictionaries of good quality. Wikipedia is
> better
> > > > sure, and has improved our lives. But now just imagine that you are
> > > living
> > > > in Botswana, and on school (if you're lucky) there is very little
> > > material
> > > > available... and now there is an encyclopedia... In YOUR language!
> > >
> > > English is an official language of Botswana. Quite a lot of African
> > > countries move to English or French for education above a certain
> > > level.
> > >
> > > >Even if
> > > > it only contains 1000 articles,
> > >
> > > ~102 articles currently.
> > >
> > > > you can already learn a lot from it. You can
> > > > improve your knowledge, and increase the odds in competition with the
> > > > western world.
> > >
> > > What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for
> > > that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are
> > > large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that
> > > area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly
> > > questionable if we would even want to.
> > >
> > > This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean
> > > that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries
> > > may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them
> > > becoming POV forks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > geni
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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--
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http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by
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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 4:54 PM

Post #23 of 91 (2051 views)

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:48 PM, geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is Tswana for mass spectrometry (looking at the translations for
> that term across European languages is mildly amusing) ? There are
> large areas where if you don't speak english you can't operate in that
> area. There is nothing wikimedia can do about this. Highly
> questionable if we would even want to.
>
> This doesn't mean we should give up on many languages but it does mean
> that we have to accept that the educated people from those countries
> may not want to use them and there is a significant risk of them
> becoming POV forks.

What is relatively unknown to foreigners is that even English (or any
other word language as lingua franca) is preferable language for
education, the most of people under ~18-20 and above 50 are very bad
in that lingua franca, no matter what the region is. Simply,
foreigners usually don't talk with people who don't know English (or
other world language). Even we assume that the upper limit for knowing
English will raise, it is hardly to assume that lower limit will go
significantly down. This is especially important because pidgins
(let's say, WoW or CS pidgins) locally are not translated to English
and then to a native language, but directly into a native language.
(To give a plastic example: "ASAP" will not be translated as "as soon
as possible" and then into a local language phrase, but directly to a
local language phrase.)

So, if you are able to make an internet pidgin-English project, it
could work for younger. However, en.wp is not working. To be honest, I
was thinking that the most useful Wikimedian project in Serbia is
English Wikipedia, but I was wrong. Serbian Wikipedia is the most
useful project, even it has ~30 times less articles than en.wp.

Completely other question is that a very small specter of population
is able to participate on en.wp, even in not so poor countries.

Other thing is inside of multilingual developing countries which
decided to use English in the educational system. But, it makes
another problem: significant part of population won't get even basic
education if it is in foreign language (cf. literacy level in Arab and
other Muslim countries, even the richest: only very rich, socialist
and not so populated Libya has 82% of literacy, while not so rich [per
capita] and not socialist Iran and Pakistan have 82% and 86%; even
extremely rich UAE and Saudi Arabia have 79% and [around] 80%).

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

geniice at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 5:25 PM

Post #24 of 91 (2046 views)

2008/12/1 Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> So, if you are able to make an internet pidgin-English project, it
> could work for younger. However, en.wp is not working. To be honest, I
> was thinking that the most useful Wikimedian project in Serbia is
> English Wikipedia, but I was wrong. Serbian Wikipedia is the most
> useful project, even it has ~30 times less articles than en.wp.

Serbian isn't a launguage. It's a dialect of the Central South Slavic
diasystem and one of the projects I had in mind when I brought up
smaller languages becoming POV forks.

You also need to considered the argument beyond wikipedia. The ratio
of scientific papers published in english compared to any eastern
European language (except to an extent Russian) is very considerable.
This is not something wikipedia can do anything about. Even if such
languages do get more extensive beyond a certain point they will be
relying on English references.

--
geni

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Re: 80% of our projects are failing [ In reply to ]

millosh at gmail

Nov 30, 2008, 9:13 PM

Post #25 of 91 (2048 views)

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:25 AM, geni <geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
> Serbian isn't a launguage. It's a dialect of the Central South Slavic
> diasystem and one of the projects I had in mind when I brought up
> smaller languages becoming POV forks.

Saying that something is not a language is a strong claim. Talking
about one standard language as a dialect is a non-scientific claim.
Serbian language is one of the standard varieties based on
Eastern-Herzegovian dialect of Shtokavian diasystem. Also, it is not
based on Central South Slavic diasystem, because standard Serbian
language is not based on Torlakian, Chakavian nor Kaykavian.

> You also need to considered the argument beyond wikipedia. The ratio
> of scientific papers published in english compared to any eastern
> European language (except to an extent Russian) is very considerable.
> This is not something wikipedia can do anything about. Even if such
> languages do get more extensive beyond a certain point they will be
> relying on English references.

Yes. This is true.

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