Mailing List Archive: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008

Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008

rmontoya at wikimedia

Nov 25, 2008, 4:19 PM

Post #1 of 36 (3873 views)

Hey All--

There has been a lot of good feedback on the first set of site notices and we've taken those ideas and, I think, done a pretty good job of implementing fixes across projects and languages. The tech team has done fabulous work.

You can see a brief statistical summary of the Phase I notices here:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-click/
Please feel free to comment in the blog. We're going to be doing some short term testing of some minor tweaks to the Phase I notices soon.

Which brings us to Phase 2. We are trying to juggle two separate concepts in designing the site notices: 1) we want our viewers and visitors to see and understand that their donations are important to the mission of Wikimedia Foundation and 2) we want our visitors to be stimulated into giving without being too disruptive.

As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have now. These are just drafts.

Please comment on the page or in the discussion section. I'm also happy to hear any suggestions that you might have. Post your designs or drafts as well.

Phase 2 notices will go live the week of December 1st...pending the time needed by our volunteer translators and the tech team.

Phase 3 (slate for mid December) will focus on an end-of-campaign push and might include video elements.

On a side note, we updated our comparative statistical presentation: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserStatistics. These charts compare 2007 vs. 2008 including only gifts of less than or equal to $10,000.

-Rand Montoya
Head of Community Giving

--
Rand Montoya
Head of Community Giving
Wikimedia Foundation
www.wikimedia.org
Email: rand@wikimedia.org
Phone: 415.839.6885 x615
Fax: 415.882.0495

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

nawrich at gmail

Nov 25, 2008, 4:47 PM

Post #2 of 36 (3834 views)

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org>wrote:

>
>
> As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
> attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those
> who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different
> quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki
> project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have
> now. These are just drafts.
>

I don't know - I think it would be interesting, at least on the English
Wikipedia, to see some quotes in other languages. It would reinforce to the
people who see quotes in Chinese or Russian that Wikimedia is an
international project with broadly global goals.

Nathan

--
Your donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia Foundation
today: http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

cbrown1023.ml at gmail

Nov 25, 2008, 5:30 PM

Post #3 of 36 (3863 views)

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org>wrote:
>> The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in.
>
> I don't know - I think it would be interesting, at least on the English
> Wikipedia, to see some quotes in other languages. It would reinforce to the
> people who see quotes in Chinese or Russian that Wikimedia is an
> international project with broadly global goals.
>

Normally I would agree with you. Last year, I was *all* for putting
as many language quotes on the sitenotices as possible. However, if
we are only going to have 6 quotes and they are going to be show-cased
in such a large way (as opposed to a little line below the "people
mover"), we should probably have them in the local language.

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

---
Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to
this address will probably get lost.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

rarohde at gmail

Nov 25, 2008, 5:32 PM

Post #4 of 36 (3839 views)

I realize that many of the people working on this are new, but have
you given any thought to replicating / updating the "Personal Appeal"
approach from 2005. Adjusted for changes in traffic, there is a good
argument that the "Personal Appeal from Jimbo Wales" (last portion of
Q4 2005 fund drive) had a higher response rate than any of the others
that have been tried during the last several years.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Personal_Appeal
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=33615576

Only the early phase of Q3 2005 got similar play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=21666716

You'll notice that both of those turn on the "Wikipedia needs your
help" meme that has worked well this time as well.

-Robert Rohde

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Hey All--
>
> There has been a lot of good feedback on the first set of site notices and we've taken those ideas and, I think, done a pretty good job of implementing fixes across projects and languages. The tech team has done fabulous work.
>
> You can see a brief statistical summary of the Phase I notices here:
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-click/
> Please feel free to comment in the blog. We're going to be doing some short term testing of some minor tweaks to the Phase I notices soon.
>
> Which brings us to Phase 2. We are trying to juggle two separate concepts in designing the site notices: 1) we want our viewers and visitors to see and understand that their donations are important to the mission of Wikimedia Foundation and 2) we want our visitors to be stimulated into giving without being too disruptive.
>
> As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
> attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have now. These are just drafts.
>
> Please comment on the page or in the discussion section. I'm also happy to hear any suggestions that you might have. Post your designs or drafts as well.
>
> Phase 2 notices will go live the week of December 1st...pending the time needed by our volunteer translators and the tech team.
>
> Phase 3 (slate for mid December) will focus on an end-of-campaign push and might include video elements.
>
> On a side note, we updated our comparative statistical presentation: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserStatistics. These charts compare 2007 vs. 2008 including only gifts of less than or equal to $10,000.
>
> -Rand Montoya
> Head of Community Giving
>
> --
> Rand Montoya
> Head of Community Giving
> Wikimedia Foundation
> www.wikimedia.org
> Email: rand@wikimedia.org
> Phone: 415.839.6885 x615
> Fax: 415.882.0495
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

meta.sj at gmail

Nov 25, 2008, 5:45 PM

Post #5 of 36 (3836 views)

That would be worth trying. SJ

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Robert Rohde <rarohde@gmail.com> wrote:
> I realize that many of the people working on this are new, but have
> you given any thought to replicating / updating the "Personal Appeal"
> approach from 2005. Adjusted for changes in traffic, there is a good
> argument that the "Personal Appeal from Jimbo Wales" (last portion of
> Q4 2005 fund drive) had a higher response rate than any of the others
> that have been tried during the last several years.
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Personal_Appeal
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=33615576
>
> Only the early phase of Q3 2005 got similar play:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=21666716
>
> You'll notice that both of those turn on the "Wikipedia needs your
> help" meme that has worked well this time as well.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>> Hey All--
>>
>> There has been a lot of good feedback on the first set of site notices and we've taken those ideas and, I think, done a pretty good job of implementing fixes across projects and languages. The tech team has done fabulous work.
>>
>> You can see a brief statistical summary of the Phase I notices here:
>> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-click/
>> Please feel free to comment in the blog. We're going to be doing some short term testing of some minor tweaks to the Phase I notices soon.
>>
>> Which brings us to Phase 2. We are trying to juggle two separate concepts in designing the site notices: 1) we want our viewers and visitors to see and understand that their donations are important to the mission of Wikimedia Foundation and 2) we want our visitors to be stimulated into giving without being too disruptive.
>>
>> As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
>> attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have now. These are just drafts.
>>
>> Please comment on the page or in the discussion section. I'm also happy to hear any suggestions that you might have. Post your designs or drafts as well.
>>
>> Phase 2 notices will go live the week of December 1st...pending the time needed by our volunteer translators and the tech team.
>>
>> Phase 3 (slate for mid December) will focus on an end-of-campaign push and might include video elements.
>>
>> On a side note, we updated our comparative statistical presentation: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserStatistics. These charts compare 2007 vs. 2008 including only gifts of less than or equal to $10,000.
>>
>> -Rand Montoya
>> Head of Community Giving
>>
>> --
>> Rand Montoya
>> Head of Community Giving
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> www.wikimedia.org
>> Email: rand@wikimedia.org
>> Phone: 415.839.6885 x615
>> Fax: 415.882.0495
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

wikipedia at verizon

Nov 25, 2008, 10:05 PM

Post #6 of 36 (3846 views)

Casey Brown wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org>wrote:
>>
>>> The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in.
>>>
>> I don't know - I think it would be interesting, at least on the English
>> Wikipedia, to see some quotes in other languages. It would reinforce to the
>> people who see quotes in Chinese or Russian that Wikimedia is an
>> international project with broadly global goals.
>>
>
> Normally I would agree with you. Last year, I was *all* for putting
> as many language quotes on the sitenotices as possible. However, if
> we are only going to have 6 quotes and they are going to be show-cased
> in such a large way (as opposed to a little line below the "people
> mover"), we should probably have them in the local language.
>
Well, given that we're doing comparison testing on other details, it
seems like we could also use that to settle whether Nathan's or Casey's
interpretation is more in line with how donors respond. The only hangup
might be that there's quite a few questions we'd like to test, they're
best done in isolation from each other, and we only have so much time to
run them.

--Michael Snow

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

zvandijk at googlemail

Nov 26, 2008, 5:03 AM

Post #7 of 36 (3833 views)

Quotes should be in the "local" language, indeed. Germans would find it
strange to see suddenly quotes in a foreign language and believe that a
technical fault has happend.

What about portret photos next to a quote? A general message like "Join us
supporting" followed by a person. We show surprisingly few face(s), there
are no eyes that look to the would-be-donator.

Such as:
* "Help Brion Vibber keep Wikipedia running" (followed by his pic, and later
with an explanation what he is doing)
* "Make Dr. Winiger's edits accessible to everyone" (followed by a pic of
this Zedler winner of 2007 ...)
* "Alice Weigand wants a fast and working Wikipedia when teaching seniors to
edit"
* "Let Erdal not build up Kurdish Wikipedia alone"

Ziko

2008/11/26 Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net>

> Casey Brown wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we
> hope) rotated in.
> >>>
> >> I don't know - I think it would be interesting, at least on the English
> >> Wikipedia, to see some quotes in other languages. It would reinforce to
> the
> >> people who see quotes in Chinese or Russian that Wikimedia is an
> >> international project with broadly global goals.
> >>
> >
> > Normally I would agree with you. Last year, I was *all* for putting
> > as many language quotes on the sitenotices as possible. However, if
> > we are only going to have 6 quotes and they are going to be show-cased
> > in such a large way (as opposed to a little line below the "people
> > mover"), we should probably have them in the local language.
> >
> Well, given that we're doing comparison testing on other details, it
> seems like we could also use that to settle whether Nathan's or Casey's
> interpretation is more in line with how donors respond. The only hangup
> might be that there's quite a few questions we'd like to test, they're
> best done in isolation from each other, and we only have so much time to
> run them.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

Nov 26, 2008, 9:10 AM

Post #8 of 36 (3854 views)

> Such as:
> * "Help Brion Vibber keep Wikipedia running" (followed by his pic, and later
> with an explanation what he is doing)
> * "Make Dr. Winiger's edits accessible to everyone" (followed by a pic of
> this Zedler winner of 2007 ...)
> * "Alice Weigand wants a fast and working Wikipedia when teaching seniors to
> edit"
> * "Let Erdal not build up Kurdish Wikipedia alone"

Interesting idea, but would focusing on certain individuals go against
the "by everyone, for everyone" message?

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

gmaxwell at gmail

Nov 26, 2008, 9:16 AM

Post #9 of 36 (3831 views)

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Quotes should be in the "local" language, indeed. Germans would find it
> strange to see suddenly quotes in a foreign language and believe that a
> technical fault has happend.
>
> What about portret photos next to a quote? A general message like "Join us
> supporting" followed by a person. We show surprisingly few face(s), there
> are no eyes that look to the would-be-donator.
>
> Such as:
> * "Help Brion Vibber keep Wikipedia running" (followed by his pic, and later
> with an explanation what he is doing)
> * "Make Dr. Winiger's edits accessible to everyone" (followed by a pic of
> this Zedler winner of 2007 ...)
> * "Alice Weigand wants a fast and working Wikipedia when teaching seniors to
> edit"
> * "Let Erdal not build up Kurdish Wikipedia alone"

Also, don't overlook the power of social proof
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof]: People feel much more
comfortable contributing when they see that other respectable people
and organizations have contributed. Unfortunately many of the most
powerful examples we could use are rejected by the communities as
"advertising", but there are still opportunities here.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

bdamokos at gmail

Nov 26, 2008, 9:17 AM

Post #10 of 36 (3828 views)

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> > Such as:
> > * "Help Brion Vibber keep Wikipedia running" (followed by his pic, and
> later
> > with an explanation what he is doing)
> > * "Make Dr. Winiger's edits accessible to everyone" (followed by a pic of
> > this Zedler winner of 2007 ...)
> > * "Alice Weigand wants a fast and working Wikipedia when teaching seniors
> to
> > edit"
> > * "Let Erdal not build up Kurdish Wikipedia alone"
>
> Interesting idea, but would focusing on certain individuals go against
> the "by everyone, for everyone" message?

If we focused on a wider range of people, not just "special" people
(staffers or awar winners), it would be okay. I like the idea as it is now,
though.
--
Bence Damokos
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

zvandijk at googlemail

Nov 26, 2008, 9:22 AM

Post #11 of 36 (3845 views)

>
> If we focused on a wider range of people, not just "special" people
> (staffers or awar winners), it would be okay. I like the idea as it is now,
> though.

Yes, it should be a wide range, maybe 10-20 different people, so that
readers will not always see the same.
The tricky thing is: the persons must be not special, but in any way
"interesting". It makes no sence presenting ten persons who are only
typo-fighting, although one of them would be fine.
Finding people is not that easy, by the way.

Ziko

--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

rarohde at gmail

Nov 26, 2008, 8:00 PM

Post #12 of 36 (3836 views)

Will the "Why?" design link to something?

I realize that the Phase 2 set of banners seems to be an experiment to
see what works, but a giant "Why?" in ~30 point font strikes me as an
empty or even counterproductive message: Why... bother? Why...
attack people with huge font? Why... don't they take this seriously?
I don't think the natural answer to "Why?" is "Donate now" for any
interpretation I would come up with. Maybe you plan to link it to
something informative, but initial reaction is that this is too avante
garde and not enough substance to attract donations.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that "Why?" will be the
worst performer of the five.

Some people are already testy about the size of the banner. Using
that large space simply as an excuse to beef up the font is likely to
offend more people. I realize there are only a finite number of
things one can test, but I would like to have seen a test that
compares an existing banner to a similar banner having ~2/3 the
height. I suspect the increased real estate probably hasn't bought us
much (i.e. increased attention gets offset against increased
irritation).

-Robert Rohde

P.S. I would also like to note my fascination that 7 of Rand's image
uploads on Meta are tagged for deletion as "no source/no license".

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Rand Montoya <rmontoya@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Hey All--
>
> There has been a lot of good feedback on the first set of site notices and we've taken those ideas and, I think, done a pretty good job of implementing fixes across projects and languages. The tech team has done fabulous work.
>
> You can see a brief statistical summary of the Phase I notices here:
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-click/
> Please feel free to comment in the blog. We're going to be doing some short term testing of some minor tweaks to the Phase I notices soon.
>
> Which brings us to Phase 2. We are trying to juggle two separate concepts in designing the site notices: 1) we want our viewers and visitors to see and understand that their donations are important to the mission of Wikimedia Foundation and 2) we want our visitors to be stimulated into giving without being too disruptive.
>
> As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
> attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have now. These are just drafts.
>
> Please comment on the page or in the discussion section. I'm also happy to hear any suggestions that you might have. Post your designs or drafts as well.
>
> Phase 2 notices will go live the week of December 1st...pending the time needed by our volunteer translators and the tech team.
>
> Phase 3 (slate for mid December) will focus on an end-of-campaign push and might include video elements.
>
> On a side note, we updated our comparative statistical presentation: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserStatistics. These charts compare 2007 vs. 2008 including only gifts of less than or equal to $10,000.
>
> -Rand Montoya
> Head of Community Giving
>
> --
> Rand Montoya
> Head of Community Giving
> Wikimedia Foundation
> www.wikimedia.org
> Email: rand@wikimedia.org
> Phone: 415.839.6885 x615
> Fax: 415.882.0495
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

geo.plrd at yahoo

Nov 26, 2008, 9:18 PM

Post #13 of 36 (3830 views)

"Preserve History, Donate Now!"

________________________________
From: Bence Damokos <bdamokos@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:17:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> > Such as:
> > * "Help Brion Vibber keep Wikipedia running" (followed by his pic, and
> later
> > with an explanation what he is doing)
> > * "Make Dr. Winiger's edits accessible to everyone" (followed by a pic of
> > this Zedler winner of 2007 ...)
> > * "Alice Weigand wants a fast and working Wikipedia when teaching seniors
> to
> > edit"
> > * "Let Erdal not build up Kurdish Wikipedia alone"
>
> Interesting idea, but would focusing on certain individuals go against
> the "by everyone, for everyone" message?

If we focused on a wider range of people, not just "special" people
(staffers or awar winners), it would be okay. I like the idea as it is now,
though.
--
Bence Damokos
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 4:21 AM

Post #14 of 36 (3814 views)

2008/11/27 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>:

> "Preserve History, Donate Now!"

Preserve History, Buy Us A Better Backup Infrastructure!

- d.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

zvandijk at googlemail

Nov 27, 2008, 8:23 AM

Post #15 of 36 (3824 views)

Reregarding the list
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-click/

So the phrase

Wikipedia is a non-profit
project<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Edu_Notice_2008_1.png>had
rather poor results. Maybe because it contains two words that sound negative
to many people, "non" and "profit", and maybe many people do not understand
at first glance what it means.
By the way, I know that there are people who do dare to click on a button
saying "buy now" or "donate here" because they believe that clicking means
automatically that they have to pay. How about an expression that makes
clear that the button is only sending to a page with more information about
donations.
Ziko

----------------
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 12:05 PM

Post #16 of 36 (3826 views)

2008/11/27 Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com>:

> So the phrase
> Wikipedia is a non-profit
> project<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Edu_Notice_2008_1.png>had
> rather poor results. Maybe because it contains two words that sound negative
> to many people, "non" and "profit", and maybe many people do not understand
> at first glance what it means.

"Wikipedia is a charity" ?

- d.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 12:12 PM

Post #17 of 36 (3825 views)

> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?

People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
US.)

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 12:16 PM

Post #18 of 36 (3829 views)

2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:

>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?

> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
> The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
> considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
> US.)

The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!

(I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on the
comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)

- d.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

thomas.dalton at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 1:40 PM

Post #19 of 36 (3816 views)

2008/11/27 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
> 2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
>
>>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
>
>> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
>> The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
>> considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
>> US.)
>
>
> The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!
>
> (I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on the
> comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)

And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
probably be better perceived.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

rarohde at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 2:27 PM

Post #20 of 36 (3813 views)

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/11/27 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
>> 2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
>>
>>> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
>>> The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
>>> considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
>>> US.)
>>
>>
>> The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!
>>
>> (I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on the
>> comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)
>
> And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
> organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
> instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
> probably be better perceived.

I agree that the WMF fits the legal definition of a charity, but when
one says "charity" the first thing that comes to my mind are
organizations that take donations (often including food or clothes)
for the primary purpose of redistributing most of them to the needy.
You know, the Red Cross, United Way, Goodwill, food banks, etc.
Obviously the WMF's mission and the use of their income is somewhat
different from that, even though promoting the dissemination of
knowledge is ultimately a charitable purpose.

So at least in my mind calling the WMF a charity feels less precise
and more confusing. Just my two cents. Your reaction may vary.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

pn007a2145 at blueyonder

Nov 27, 2008, 2:42 PM

Post #21 of 36 (3817 views)

Robert Rohde wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Thomas Dalton
>> <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 2008/11/27 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
>>>> 2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
>>>>
>>>>> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a
>>>>> charity? The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would
>>>>> probably be considered charitable, I don't know what the
>>>>> requirements are in the US.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!
>>>>
>>>> (I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on
>>>> the comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)
>>>
>>> And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
>>> organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
>>> instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
>>> probably be better perceived.
>>
>> I agree that the WMF fits the legal definition of a charity, but when
>> one says "charity" the first thing that comes to my mind are
>> organizations that take donations (often including food or clothes)
>> for the primary purpose of redistributing most of them to the needy.
>> You know, the Red Cross, United Way, Goodwill, food banks, etc.
>> Obviously the WMF's mission and the use of their income is somewhat
>> different from that, even though promoting the dissemination of
>> knowledge is ultimately a charitable purpose.
>>
>> So at least in my mind calling the WMF a charity feels less precise
>> and more confusing. Just my two cents. Your reaction may vary.
>>
>> -Robert Rohde

Certainly in UK law establishments with educational objectives may qualify
as having charitable purposes. They may even generate what would normally be
termed "profits", but the law requires them to plough back those funds into
their fundamental purpose, failing which they would lose all the tax
advantages. I don't see Wikipedia being that much different, but then I'm
not an expert on US tax law.

The problem may be that "charity" also has a connotation in some places of
being somewhat second-class and therefore almost pejorative.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

zvandijk at googlemail

Nov 27, 2008, 2:44 PM

Post #22 of 36 (3812 views)

It's not about a legal definition for WMF, but what words use in front of
the greater public. To Germans I would not translate charity to "karitativ",
because that sounds like feeding orphans.:-)
The point is to make people do to something, play on their emotions, trigger
their helpfulness. Explain what Wikimedians are doing, what we need money
for.
And, let them look into faces they can admire, identify with etc. Our
donation site looks like made by iconoclasts.:-)
Ziko

2008/11/27 Robert Rohde <rarohde@gmail.com>

> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > 2008/11/27 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
> >> 2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
> >>
> >>> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
> >>> The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
> >>> considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
> >>> US.)
> >>
> >>
> >> The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!
> >>
> >> (I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on the
> >> comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)
> >
> > And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
> > organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
> > instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
> > probably be better perceived.
>
> I agree that the WMF fits the legal definition of a charity, but when
> one says "charity" the first thing that comes to my mind are
> organizations that take donations (often including food or clothes)
> for the primary purpose of redistributing most of them to the needy.
> You know, the Red Cross, United Way, Goodwill, food banks, etc.
> Obviously the WMF's mission and the use of their income is somewhat
> different from that, even though promoting the dissemination of
> knowledge is ultimately a charitable purpose.
>
> So at least in my mind calling the WMF a charity feels less precise
> and more confusing. Just my two cents. Your reaction may vary.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>
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--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

dgerard at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 3:22 PM

Post #23 of 36 (3816 views)

2008/11/27 Robert Rohde <rarohde@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:

>> And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
>> organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
>> instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
>> probably be better perceived.

> I agree that the WMF fits the legal definition of a charity, but when
> one says "charity" the first thing that comes to my mind are
> organizations that take donations (often including food or clothes)
> for the primary purpose of redistributing most of them to the needy.
> You know, the Red Cross, United Way, Goodwill, food banks, etc.
> Obviously the WMF's mission and the use of their income is somewhat
> different from that, even though promoting the dissemination of
> knowledge is ultimately a charitable purpose.
> So at least in my mind calling the WMF a charity feels less precise
> and more confusing. Just my two cents. Your reaction may vary.

Same in Australia, really. A wider meaning for the word "charity" is
common in the UK, though.

- d.

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

lars at aronsson

Nov 27, 2008, 4:56 PM

Post #24 of 36 (3815 views)

Thomas Dalton wrote:

> > "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
>
> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?

Instead of these endless discussions on which phrases to use, I
think we should rely on the recently posted statistics on which
amounts of donations each phrase generated. We could have an open
pool of phrases (a wiki page), and the system would automatically
pick untested phrases at random, and continue to use those which
are "successful in the marketplace". This simple principle should
scale to every language.

--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: Site Notices Phase 2 - Annual Fundraiser 2008 [ In reply to ]

aphaia at gmail

Nov 27, 2008, 9:40 PM

Post #25 of 36 (3805 views)

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:40 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/11/27 David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
>> 2008/11/27 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>> "Wikipedia is a charity" ?
>>
>>> People always say "non-profit" when describing WMF, is it a charity?
>>> The two terms are different. (In the UK, the WMF would probably be
>>> considered charitable, I don't know what the requirements are in the
>>> US.)
>>
>>
>> The bottom of every page on en:wp says it's a charity!
>>
>> (I put that text there, after precise phrasing was worked out on the
>> comcom list. If it's wrong we should change it ...)
>
> And, in fact, wikimediafoundation.org says "nonprofit charitable
> organization". I don't know why people generally say "non-profit"
> instead of "charity", then - charity would be more precise and would
> probably be better perceived.

I'm afraid I disagree with you here.
Non-profit vs for-profit is a distinction in taxation and precise.
Charity vs not being charity may 1) no legal distinction in some cases
and 2) Wikimedia Foundation could be no charity in some definition of
non-US jurisdiction (and at worse it may be taken as deceitful).

I am for adding "charitable" etc. but against replacing "charity" etc.
with "non-profit".

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--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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